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+---- Thread: Democrats organize to fight back (/thread-558.html)
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Warren Dew - 11-22-2016
The proportion of food and agriculture to military spending is wildly different on the two charts. It isn't just that your chart is "discretionary"; it's just plain wrong.
About half the "medicare & health" on my chart is medicaid, not medicare. Likewise, there's "unemployment and labor" mixed in with the social security. And as I've mentioned, medicare pays out far more than it takes in due to Bush era increases in benefits without increases in taxes.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Eric the Green - 11-22-2016
The last one due largely to Bush/Republican refusal to bargain down prescription drugs prices, which are grossly inflated in the USA.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Warren Dew - 11-22-2016
That's what happens when the government runs something.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Galen - 11-22-2016
(11-21-2016, 11:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The chart was for discretionary spending.
Eric the Obtuse still doesn't get that all spending by the government is discretionary. The entitlements are on autopilot unless Congress chooses to change it. In order to get spending under control they will have to lower entitlements spending or allow the dollar to be destroyed by inflation.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Odin - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
I don't hear Canadians and Brits complain about spiraling healthcare costs.
I roll my eyes at all the BS excuses why single payer can't work in the US when it works just fine elsewhere.
People have to get over their fear of "government rationing" of healthcare. The market is itself a form of rationing, one based on the ability to pay, and which by it's very nature fucks over the poor.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - pbrower2a - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
If people like the results they don't complain. So long as they get a good deal in return for the taxes that they pay they are content.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Warren Dew - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote:(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
I don't hear Canadians and Brits complain about spiraling healthcare costs.
Well, the Brits deny their old people food and fluids until they die, which makes it difficult for them to complain. Still, others sometimes complain on their behalf.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255054/60-000-patients-death-pathway-told-minister-says-controversial-end-life-plan-fantastic.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11779213/New-death-guidelines-worse-than-Liverpool-Care-Pathway.html
The Canadians may not have gotten to that point yet, but those I know who have exposure to both marvel at how much faster they get an appointment and treatment in the U.S.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Bob Butler 54 - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 11:50 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: In return for our taxes? We sure don't get the level of government service they get in Europe.
What we do get is a monster military. It's also not just the fighting forces, either, we have the logistic support to use our force most anywhere in the world. That's expensive. That just seems to be our priority, that we put fighting strength ahead of our People.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - TeacherinExile - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 12:11 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(11-22-2016, 11:50 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: In return for our taxes? We sure don't get the level of government service they get in Europe.
What we do get is a monster military. It's also not just the fighting forces, either, we have the logistic support to use our force most anywhere in the world. That's expensive. That just seems to be our priority, that we put fighting strength ahead of our People.
Precisely. The US military monolith accounts for over half of discretionary government spending. Forget "entitlement" programs, such as Social Security. The military-intelligence-surveillance complex, that is the real Third Rail in American politics. Politicians (including Trump, Hillary and, sadly, even Sanders) dare not touch that rail in their policy proposals. Only with sequestration was military spending curtailed at all. But just you watch. When Trumponomics blows another hole in our federal budget, the deficit hawks will put social programs on the chopping block once again. It's the same old story.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Warren Dew - 11-22-2016
Excellent. Social programs should be handled at the state level, as they are in the EU, if not through private charity.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - TeacherinExile - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 01:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Excellent. Social programs should be handled at the state level, as they are in the EU, if not through private charity.
Are you familiar with the General Welfare Clause of the US Constitution?
Article I, section 8 of the U. S. Constitution grants Congress the power to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general Welfare of the United States."
Supreme Court rulings have repeatedly relied on this clause to support the right--indeed, the duty--of the federal government to establish and fund social programs for the general welfare of the public. Using your logic, should the establishment and funding of a military defense be the sole province of the states, and not the federal government? You can't have it both ways.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Eric the Green - 11-22-2016
That's right. But some libertarians like Warren tend to be utopians, whose view concerns not what is constitutional, but what "should" be done according to their ideal. Many libertarians of course cite the constitution too, at least the parts that support their case, such as the fact that certain powers of congress are "enumerated." The constitution is kinda like the Bible in that respect.
I wonder if Warren is viewing nations like France as "states" within the EU? That's a different kind of union that the United States is, which is still considered one nation. In this 4T, it's possible that this could change; in a 4T, everything can be up for grabs.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Eric the Green - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 01:08 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote:(11-22-2016, 12:11 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(11-22-2016, 11:50 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: In return for our taxes? We sure don't get the level of government service they get in Europe.
What we do get is a monster military. It's also not just the fighting forces, either, we have the logistic support to use our force most anywhere in the world. That's expensive. That just seems to be our priority, that we put fighting strength ahead of our People.
Precisely. The US military monolith accounts for over half of discretionary government spending. Forget "entitlement" programs, such as Social Security. The military-intelligence-surveillance complex, that is the real Third Rail in American politics. Politicians (including Trump, Hillary and, sadly, even Sanders) dare not touch that rail in their policy proposals. Only with sequestration was military spending curtailed at all. But just you watch. When Trumponomics blows another hole in our federal budget, the deficit hawks will put social programs on the chopping block once again. It's the same old story.
Yes indeed. There was some movement toward cutbacks at the end of the Cold War in the 1990s, "the peace dividend." But 9-11 knocked that down, and energized the "surveillance state" as never before too. Sanders I believe has talked about cutbacks, but not too loudly or too much, because of the current wars on terrorism.
The Depression and New Deal gave us more social services spending than before, but right after that it was World War II that not only brought us out of the Depression, giving some people the impression that defense spending normally helps the economy, but made us the "leader of the free world" and gave us the "military-industrial complex." Since then, although the Great Society in 1965-66 gave us Medicare and more social spending, Reaganomics since 1981 has accelerated the decline in social spending while exploding the debt, deliberately adding to the excuse for more cutbacks. Meanwhile cutbacks in military spending have been few and far between compared to the increases. Americans somehow get a vicarious macho satisfaction in being #1 in military power and able to impose our will on the world. And the MIC has been an amazing corporate gravy train. Trump has appealed to this macho satisfaction and will try to deliver on it, while keeping women down in society in the bargain, and making sure that their main role in life remains making babies for the guys.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Eric the Green - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
It's what happens when private enterprise is given the preferred treatment over the needs of the people.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Copperfield - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote:(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
I don't hear Canadians and Brits complain about spiraling healthcare costs.
I roll my eyes at all the BS excuses why single payer can't work in the US when it works just fine elsewhere.
People have to get over their fear of "government rationing" of healthcare. The market is itself a form of rationing, one based on the ability to pay, and which by it's very nature fucks over the poor.
That's odd because Canadians are in fact complaining about spiraling health care costs. It's really been quite a shit show for them over the past few years.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Galen - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 02:49 PM)Copperfield Wrote:(11-22-2016, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote:(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
I don't hear Canadians and Brits complain about spiraling healthcare costs.
I roll my eyes at all the BS excuses why single payer can't work in the US when it works just fine elsewhere.
People have to get over their fear of "government rationing" of healthcare. The market is itself a form of rationing, one based on the ability to pay, and which by it's very nature fucks over the poor.
That's odd because Canadians are in fact complaining about spiraling health care costs. It's really been quite a shit show for them over the past few years.
Then there are the waiting lists. Eric the Obtuse hasn't actually talked with anyone from Canada about the actual state of their health care system. Here is how it actually works:
Nothing like living in a socialist paradise.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Odin - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 09:14 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(11-22-2016, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote:(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
I don't hear Canadians and Brits complain about spiraling healthcare costs.
Well, the Brits deny their old people food and fluids until they die, which makes it difficult for them to complain. Still, others sometimes complain on their behalf.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255054/60-000-patients-death-pathway-told-minister-says-controversial-end-life-plan-fantastic.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11779213/New-death-guidelines-worse-than-Liverpool-Care-Pathway.html
The Canadians may not have gotten to that point yet, but those I know who have exposure to both marvel at how much faster they get an appointment and treatment in the U.S.
Got sources that aren't right-wing rags?
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Odin - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 11:50 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:(11-22-2016, 08:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
If people like the results they don't complain. So long as they get a good deal in return for the taxes that they pay they are content.
In many States, if you add the State and Fed tax burden, we get taxed as high as or higher than most European Countries / Japan / Canada, etc. In fact, Canadians get a great deal compared with the US.
In return for our taxes? We sure don't get the level of government service they get in Europe.
That is a great opportunity for improvement. I would not advocate further lowering of taxes. Instead, the operation of government itself should be improved.
This is why I hate the bitching about big/small government, we need to be demanding effective, accountable government.
One big problem is political illiteracy, a lot of people literally have no clue who their politicians are outside the President, thus the "THANKS, OBAMA!" types who blame state or local problems on "Washington" and/or the President.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Odin - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 01:26 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Excellent. Social programs should be handled at the state level, as they are in the EU, if not through private charity.
This is a dumb comparison, the US is a single nation, the EU is an economic union of many nations.
RE: Democrats organize to fight back - Galen - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 04:31 PM)taramarie Wrote:Give it time, this is what government bureaucracy tends to devolve into.(11-22-2016, 04:04 PM)Galen Wrote:hmm different to NZ(11-22-2016, 02:49 PM)Copperfield Wrote:(11-22-2016, 07:56 AM)Odin Wrote:(11-22-2016, 01:15 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: That's what happens when the government runs something.
I don't hear Canadians and Brits complain about spiraling healthcare costs.
I roll my eyes at all the BS excuses why single payer can't work in the US when it works just fine elsewhere.
People have to get over their fear of "government rationing" of healthcare. The market is itself a form of rationing, one based on the ability to pay, and which by it's very nature fucks over the poor.
That's odd because Canadians are in fact complaining about spiraling health care costs. It's really been quite a shit show for them over the past few years.
Then there are the waiting lists. Eric the Obtuse hasn't actually talked with anyone from Canada about the actual state of their health care system. Here is how it actually works:
Nothing like living in a socialist paradise.