+- Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory (http://generational-theory.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Fourth Turning Forums (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Current Events (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-34.html)
+---- Forum: General Political Discussion (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-15.html)
+---- Thread: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access (/thread-19292.html)
Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - random3 - 01-27-2021
Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/hawaii/articles/2020-11-09/hawaii-council-approves-property-seizure-for-beach-access
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - pbrower2a - 01-27-2021
It's called an easement. Much property allows access to some private or public interest -- let us say a public utility to erect power lines or pipelines. Government typically can make arrangements with a property owner. The classic example is with rights-of-way along a property line for a road that allows access to property owners and others.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - mamabug - 01-28-2021
Property rights against government haven't really existed since Kelo.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - pbrower2a - 01-28-2021
I suspect that beach access has been an old practice, and few people get the right to deny an existing easement at a whim. I can understand why a neighboring property owner might want to put up a wall or fence to protect privacy from people using the beach approach and having to look at people inappropriately dressed for their taste or otherwise unattractive accessing the beach through the easement. Heck, I might prefer that beach-goers use a tunnel so that I could take back the property itself and neither have to look at or be seen by such people.
Ownership of beachfronts themselves has often been sketchy. I do not know the intricacies of Hawaiian property law, but I would doubt that someone who owns property beyond the usual high tide has any special claim to the beach itself except against extreme offense (like having to see sex on the beach).
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - Bob Butler 54 - 01-28-2021
I have been living on a two lot wide isthmus between two lakes since I was in Jr High. We just went without thinking that anyone, notably kids, could walk along the beach freely. One year, we had a house rented by someone who did not seem to know the local tradition. They put a mean dog inclined to bite people on the beach and tried to change the local tradition single handedly.
Naturally, they didn't get very far.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - pbrower2a - 01-28-2021
Yes. Remove the "tiger" or put up a gated fence.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - mamabug - 01-29-2021
Per my husband, who used to live in Hawaii, all beach is considered public land. You can only own up to a certain point (not sure if it is high tide mark or X-feet above high tide). As someone who lives in a state that benefited from Teddy Roosevelt's preservationist tendencies, I do like the idea of having broad swathes of public land - especially beaches, forests, lakes and so on. I would just like to strengthen property rights around the land we are permitted to own.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - random3 - 01-29-2021
Americans scream anyone who loves freedom is a traitor, but maybe the real traitors are the Americans who love tyranny.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - pbrower2a - 01-30-2021
One cannot own the beach (and I would assume that the normal high tide is the upward boundary). One can no more claim the ownership of the beach than one can claim ownership of the sky. In theory at one time one could claim the sky to effectively an unlimited height, so supposedly if one owned property directly under the Andromeda Galaxy for the moment one 'owned' the galaxy itself. Then came air travel, and legal decisions were made that denied one the right to charge a toll for crossing over one's property. One cannot own a navigable waterway; it is public domain. This is likely the heritage of the English common law.
Easements are not the choice of a property owner. One gets them back only if others abandon the easement. So if I own some farmland and I authorized (or was obliged to authorize) a public utility to use a swath of property for access for a power line or a pipeline I could not demand its return and get its return. If the utility abandons the easement permanently (for example, removing the power line or pipeline without replacement) then the easement might revert to me. Or... suppose that the easement is the former right-of-way of a road that has been abandoned due to a realignment. Maybe as a property owner or the heir of one who was reasonably expected to give access for the road I get it back.
The easement is access, and there is obviously a clear path for access to the beach. Perhaps as the owner of the abutting property I could install a vending machine (soft drinks, snacks, suntan lotion, and other such things for profit).
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - mamabug - 01-31-2021
(01-30-2021, 12:31 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: One cannot own the beach (and I would assume that the normal high tide is the upward boundary). One can no more claim the ownership of the beach than one can claim ownership of the sky.
Depends on the state. Some do allow you to own down to the low tide line, others allow you to block off access (which is as good as owning it). My state is an example of the former, California (and New York/New Jersey I believe) are examples of the latter.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - pbrower2a - 01-31-2021
It might depend upon one harvests a resource (let us say salt evaporation) or commercial access, as at a dock for fishing or transport. California allows municipal and county governments to own beaches and control access to them, which implies that the government had to buy the beach. Access may be available from a parking lot which is government-owned and is the source for fees. Pay a parking fee and get access to the beach.
It's hard to say about Michigan because tides don't figure, and the lake water is at most slightly salty. For good reason I wouldn't drink water directly out of the Great Lakes except in desperation.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - David Horn - 01-31-2021
(01-29-2021, 01:55 PM)mamabug Wrote: Per my husband, who used to live in Hawaii, all beach is considered public land. You can only own up to a certain point (not sure if it is high tide mark or X-feet above high tide). As someone who lives in a state that benefited from Teddy Roosevelt's preservationist tendencies, I do like the idea of having broad swathes of public land - especially beaches, forests, lakes and so on. I would just like to strengthen property rights around the land we are permitted to own.
Some states allow ownership of beach property and others much less so. No one has ownership of the ocean. Lakes are different. We own our property down to the shoreline, but an indelible easement exists up to a certain elevation (in our case, 800 feet ASL). On old water (e.g. the James River) the rules are different and, frankly, a bit weird, dating to British rule of the Virginia Colony. I suspect Massachusetts is likewise odd.
RE: Council Approves Property Seizure for Beach Access - random3 - 02-04-2021
What do you say when there is no democracy, the borders are closed, you're being wiretapped, the government shuts your business, churches are closed, the elites control the courts, Congress, and the president, everything is illegal, guns are banned, protesting is illegal, the government can extrajudicially assassinate you, there is NDAA indefinite detention, there is civil forfeiture, there is TSA groping, the government can torture you, trials are cancelled, you must wear a mask, and your wife calls you weak?