Presidential election, 2016 - Printable Version +- Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory (http://generational-theory.com/forum) +-- Forum: Fourth Turning Forums (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-1.html) +--- Forum: Current Events (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-34.html) +---- Forum: General Political Discussion (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-15.html) +---- Thread: Presidential election, 2016 (/thread-24.html) |
RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Bob Butler 54 - 12-05-2016 (12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. Sure they do, but their bodyguards are an small fraction of all gun owners. These few are not the driving force behind Second Amendment activism. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Warren Dew - 12-05-2016 (12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. Do you even read the posts you respond to? Those few are the driving force behind gutting the second amendment, not behind second amendment activism. The elites are allowed their bodyguards even under the strictest of proposed gun control regimes; they just prefer no one else have the same privilege. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Bob Butler 54 - 12-05-2016 (12-05-2016, 11:34 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. I do read your posts. I just don't believe that when you say something without presenting evidence I should bow to your wisdom. You aren't the Pope. I believe that the way democracies work, when the elites want something difficult, they have to awaken the interests of the much more numerous working classes to want the same thing. Thus, a business oriented party would push the idea that what is good for business is good for the country. Elites mustering the support of the more numerous classes doesn't always happen, isn't always necessary. Sometimes campaign contributions will convince legislators to give special consideration without making any appeal to the voters. With the gun issue, I believe a heck of a lot more hunters, farmers, target shooters and folks concerned about personal security than there are billionaires and movie stars. (Gilligan's Island would not be representative, with two billionaires and a movie star out of a population of seven. ) On the flip side, there are a lot of folks who are sincerely displeased by an abundance of guns. Playwright and Eric might stand as examples of the latter. They care. Deeply. There are many like them. I see this as a valid concern of many people, not an issue that can be settled in a smoke filled room. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Warren Dew - 12-05-2016 (12-05-2016, 11:58 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:34 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. You don't have to believe what I say. Pretending that I said the exact opposite of what I actually said is pretty dishonest, though. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Galen - 12-05-2016 (12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. That is because normal people have to provide their own protection. Always remember that when seconds count the police are only minutes away. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Eric the Green - 12-05-2016 (12-05-2016, 11:34 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. Are you sure you are living on planet Earth, making a statement like that? RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Galen - 12-05-2016 (12-05-2016, 03:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:34 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. Funny, that is what I think when I read your posts. Then I remember that you are brain damaged from the drugs you were doing in the sixties. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - pbrower2a - 12-05-2016 (12-05-2016, 12:26 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-04-2016, 11:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:Warren Dew Wrote:Abortion is a culture war issue, because it stems from moral judgements that aren't really amenable to rational analysis. Whether abortion is to be outlawed? Maybe I am dealing with a stance more than with a person. I think we can all find some 'objectionable' abortion, typically one done for purely-selfish reasons... let us say a danseuse having an abortion so that she can continue as a professional dancer and not miss out on some of her peak earnings. Or perhaps an abortion paid for by some heel (with a bonus of some getting-life-together money) with political aspirations who decides that it is better to pay for an abortion than have an illegitimate child as a potential detriment to his political career. ...If there were some way to tell that the fetus were going to grow up be a dangerous sociopath, let us say Josef Stalin or Ted Bundy, would you support the abortion? Abortion has always been a tough issue for debate. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Dan '82 - 12-05-2016 Please try to avoid personal insults. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Warren Dew - 12-06-2016 (12-05-2016, 03:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:34 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. What's your explanation for why the elites tend to favor gun control? RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Classic-Xer - 12-06-2016 (12-05-2016, 10:06 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:I just read what you say, read what you write, without expectations being involved. I know what you're talking about with that though, I spent years dealing with people like that here and it really aggravated me. I don't twist your words. I don't put words in your mouth. I don't skew your opinions or alter your opinions to suit my expectations or views. I don't add false meanings or alternate thoughts or do whatever I want to with what you've written. Mike Alexander and other blues did that stuff with me all the time. Do you know how many times that I wished that Mike was within arms reach? I'm not like Mike Alexander and some of the other blues. I spent the bulk of my time duking it out with them and still do to a lesser extent today. I don't know what the old forum was like before I began participating. I just know what it was like during Bush's second term. You were a vanilla blue poster back then. I have noticed some changes in your positions. You've given up on gun control/changing the 2nd Amendment to suit the blues and appear to be more in line with my views/values on that issue. You may have been opposed to it all along but I hadn't seen you take a firm stance on it with other blues until recently.(12-05-2016, 02:45 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: My point, we are listening/reading your posts and allowing information to enter our brains and using the information received to form our opinions and judgements and positions relating to you. The blue side is obviously anti-gun. The blue side doesn't see/recognize a need or feel the necessity to own a firearm in today's world. I have read your personal positions on gun control which appear to align with that common belief. You don't see a reason or feel the necessity to own a firearm yourself and you have claimed that you'd be willing to vote to give up your right to own a gun if the issue were to be placed on a ballet. A negative sign to me. However, you do seem to understand our reasons/concerns/stances associated with our gun rights and the issue of gun control and you seem to be able to recognize our right to have them as well. A positive sign to me. Where do you really stand on the issue with information that's been received as a positive sign and a negative sign? RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Warren Dew - 12-06-2016 (12-05-2016, 10:17 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:(12-05-2016, 12:26 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-04-2016, 11:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:Warren Dew Wrote:Abortion is a culture war issue, because it stems from moral judgements that aren't really amenable to rational analysis. Thanks for the clarification. Personally I would always trust the woman more than the government to make the decision. I'd rather save any detailed discussion for an abortion specific thread, though, which I'd be happy to participate in if someone else started it. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - David Horn - 12-06-2016 (12-04-2016, 11:13 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-04-2016, 10:14 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: The problem is that they don't understand it themselves. Most of them believe their own side's propaganda, rather than understanding it's about dictatorship of the urban majority over the hinterlands, all in the cause of the blue urban elites. Adding just a bit to this: the urban majority is finally getting fed-up with rule by the rural minority. I'm sure that rural minority thinks they have been dictated-to and aren't the problem, but there are two very distinct sides here. The case for the urban majority was covered by the NY Times in this Sunday Review article. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - David Horn - 12-06-2016 (12-04-2016, 11:26 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(12-04-2016, 10:14 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-03-2016, 11:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(12-03-2016, 05:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:We understand that the American system that's in place does not favor the blues politically. We understand that blues want to remove the American system that is in place. We understand it and understand why blues want do it and have a fairly good grasp of what types of systems they'd be replacing it with and so on. Why not, you ask... What's wrong, you ask...The answers are pretty simple once you understand that we understand and are aware of your sides political motives and intents relevant to the future of America. So you both deny the data that clearly shows that the less urban and consequently more white get more power than they deserve ... and you believe this is fair? It's getting harder to convince the urban many that granting excessive political power to their poorer rural cousins is acceptable. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Warren Dew - 12-06-2016 (12-06-2016, 11:32 AM)David Horn Wrote:(12-04-2016, 11:13 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-04-2016, 10:14 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: The problem is that they don't understand it themselves. Most of them believe their own side's propaganda, rather than understanding it's about dictatorship of the urban majority over the hinterlands, all in the cause of the blue urban elites. It's a little different from the other side. The rural and exurban population is getting fed up with subsidizing urban living. When there is spending in rural areas, it's almost exclusively for things that benefit the urban rather than the rural population, such as huge corporate farms that ship their product off to be processed for urban outlets rather than sold locally, and trains and massive highways designed to connect urban concentrations, not for the benefit of the rural and exurban populations. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Bob Butler 54 - 12-06-2016 (12-06-2016, 02:05 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I just read what you say, read what you write, without expectations being involved. I know what you're talking about with that though, I spent years dealing with people like that here and it really aggravated me. I don't twist your words. I don't put words in your mouth. I don't skew your opinions or alter your opinions to suit my expectations or views. I don't add false meanings or alternate thoughts or do whatever I want to with what you've written. Mike Alexander and other blues did that stuff with me all the time. Do you know how many times that I wished that Mike was within arms reach? I'm not like Mike Alexander and some of the other blues. I spent the bulk of my time duking it out with them and still do to a lesser extent today. I don't know what the old forum was like before I began participating. I just know what it was like during Bush's second term. You were a vanilla blue poster back then. I have noticed some changes in your positions. You've given up on gun control/changing the 2nd Amendment to suit the blues and appear to be more in line with my views/values on that issue. You may have been opposed to it all along but I hadn't seen you take a firm stance on it with other blues until recently. Oh, I have for quite a while gone hot and heavy against the blues regarding gun policy for years. Just ask Eric or Playwrite. Not so much on the new forum, though. We used a lot of storage over on the old forum. I think it far easier to spot someone else incorrectly stating one's own position than it is to correctly state the other guy's opinion. Yes, there are problems with folk entirely misstating someone else's views, often seemingly with malice and intent, though often strong values make it very difficult to understand or acknowledge someone else's perspective. Some people seemingly just can't do it. I'm not saying this problem is unique to one color code or another. It is obviously hard to understand and sympathize with an opposing view. Thus, even when someone isn't consciously twisting another's words things get twisted anyway. I get annoyed when folk don't even try to understand or sympathize with those with different opinions. Some posts might start with the assertion that 'all liberals think alike, you are a liberal, therefore your opinion on the issue is...' (Insert vile stereotype here.) Bah, humbug. Again, not a problem unique to one faction or the other. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - David Horn - 12-06-2016 (12-04-2016, 01:42 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Clueless. They actually think propaganda sources like The New York Times are reliable sources, despite their history of making up the news. I'm not sure if this is intended to be serious or just serious snark. Real cases of fake news are both common and found almost exclusively on social media or RW news sites. I would be interested in a cite or two of NY Times fake news reporting. The NYT is the newspaper of record for a reason. The pub isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than 99.99% of the news gathering entities out there, and head-and-shoulders above its crosstown rival the WSJ. RE: Presidential election, 2016 - David Horn - 12-06-2016 (12-05-2016, 02:50 AM)Galen Wrote:(12-05-2016, 02:45 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: My point, we are listening/reading your posts and allowing information to enter our brains and using the information received to form our opinions and judgements and positions relating to you. The blue side is obviously anti-gun. The blue side doesn't see/recognize a need or feel the necessity to own a firearm in today's world. I have read your personal positions on gun control which appear to align with that common belief. You don't see a reason or feel the necessity to own a firearm yourself and you have claimed that you'd be willing to vote to give up your right to own a gun if the issue were to be placed on a ballet. A negative sign to me. However, you do seem to understand our reasons/concerns/stances associated with our gun rights and the issue of gun control and you seem to be able to recognize our right to have them as well. A positive sign to me. Where do you really stand on the issue with information that's been received as a positive sign and a negative sign? Five handmade guns a month is a far cry from the production of even the smallest arms manufacturer, yet you cite this as the reason prohibitions don't work. Really? Seriously? RE: Presidential election, 2016 - David Horn - 12-06-2016 (12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(12-05-2016, 11:04 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: If you think billionaiires or even major movie stars wander around without bodyguards, you're seriously detached from reality. FWIW, the entire 2nd Amendment hyper-vigilance is just so much overactive paranoia. It lives in the RW echo chamber and feeds on itself. At a time when violent crime is very low by historical standards, the rush to get guns and go about armed to the teeth is not only unjustified but more than a little pathological. Now the very wealthy and famous are in a different universe; they are obvious targets. But folks like us, we're just not that intriguing to the criminal class. I own no guns and have not felt the need to own one EVER! Just for the record: no one has tried to rob me, enter my home without permission or even diss me in public. How about you? RE: Presidential election, 2016 - Classic-Xer - 12-06-2016 (12-06-2016, 12:08 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:The biggest noise from rural here is from rural blue voters. PB and Odin come to mind and Kiff was another one.(12-06-2016, 11:39 AM)David Horn Wrote:(12-04-2016, 11:26 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(12-04-2016, 10:14 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:(12-03-2016, 11:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We understand that the American system that's in place does not favor the blues politically. We understand that blues want to remove the American system that is in place. We understand it and understand why blues want do it and have a fairly good grasp of what types of systems they'd be replacing it with and so on. Why not, you ask... What's wrong, you ask...The answers are pretty simple once you understand that we understand and are aware of your sides political motives and intents relevant to the future of America. |