(12-10-2016, 12:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's very close in MN, Odin, and in your county Trump won by a small margin. And owning guns is part of the same mentality that gave us Donald Trump; no question. Classic exemplifies the mindset.

(12-10-2016, 12:59 PM)FLBones Wrote: Trump won by major margins in the rural areas of MN but Clinton won by a wide range in the urban areas.

(12-09-2016, 05:25 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(12-09-2016, 04:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-06-2016, 04:57 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-05-2016, 03:23 PM)Galen Wrote:

(12-05-2016, 11:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Sure they do, but their bodyguards are an small fraction of all gun owners.  These few are not the driving force behind Second Amendment activism.

That is because normal people have to provide their own protection.  Always remember that when seconds count the police are only minutes away.

So your right to protect yourself, in the unlikely event you need to do so, means the rest of us have to be concerned about you.  If you are afraid of the boogieman to the extent that you need to go around armed at all times, how do you think we feel having to interact with you and your arms?  How much of a walking breathing hair trigger are you?  How can we know?

Life isn't that scary, but folks like you manage to make it worse.

Indeed; pretty scary. I am wary right now of the places where those folks live. They expressed their anger and fear peacefully at the polls, with likely very unfortunate results. How else can they express it?

You folks on the left are way too paranoid.  The more law abiding gun owners there are in my neighborhood, the less crime, and the safer I feel.

(12-10-2016, 04:24 PM)Mikebert Wrote:

(12-09-2016, 05:25 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: You folks on the left are way too paranoid.  The more law abiding gun owners there are in my neighborhood, the less crime, and the safer I feel.

There are a hell of lot more folks killed by gun-wielding mass murderers than by terrorists.  So I would say folks on the right's paranoia about terrorists is ever sillier than the same about spree shooters in the left.

(12-10-2016, 03:32 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I wish I could understand you guys from Trumpland a little better. I wonder if there's something more in your minds than just deceptive ideas and fears. What could make you this way? I don't know.

I certainly don't feel protected by libertarians, particularly not because they preserve my freedom to own a gun. There is no need for self-defense with a gun except in a thoroughly barbarous and violent world. Since I don't inhabit that world, and never have in my over 60 years, I have no need for that type of self-defense. Yet you say if I went to your neighborhood, I wouldn't see your guns. Even though it's an open carry state. But underneath the hidden guns, since you feel the need for them, there must be a strong and dangerous undercurrent of violence. If that weren't so, why the need for defense?

I'm sure you could defeat me one on one with your gun. But even Hamilton's duel with Burr was illegal, and he was almost charged with murder. I doubt you really want to go down that road. There is no need to be afraid of people like me on any level, or for you to be mad at us or turn against us.

You guys are the ones threatening us. Libertarians don't protect me; they threaten me. You want to take away our precious beaches and forests. Nature is what sustains our bodies and our spirits. It is truly a danger that you want to destroy it. If you claim that you don't, then you don't understand how your votes and your views do just that. You don't see who Trump is appointing at all, or what it means. I am a Green. What I see that needs protecting, is not my liberty to own a gun or pay less taxes to freeloaders. It is Nature that needs protecting, and the opportunity for all people to have a decent life. And you want to take away the social security and medicare from me and others, that I paid for.

You can afford to pay a bit more in taxes, if you earn enough money to afford this. That is no threat to you. Poor people getting help is no threat to you. We aren't going to take your guns away from you by force as long as you really feel you want them. I only seek to persuade folks like you that you don't need them. That is no threat to you.

(12-10-2016, 08:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-10-2016, 03:32 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I wish I could understand you guys from Trumpland a little better. I wonder if there's something more in your minds than just deceptive ideas and fears. What could make you this way? I don't know.

I certainly don't feel protected by libertarians, particularly not because they preserve my freedom to own a gun. There is no need for self-defense with a gun except in a thoroughly barbarous and violent world. Since I don't inhabit that world, and never have in my over 60 years, I have no need for that type of self-defense. Yet you say if I went to your neighborhood, I wouldn't see your guns. Even though it's an open carry state. But underneath the hidden guns, since you feel the need for them, there must be a strong and dangerous undercurrent of violence. If that weren't so, why the need for defense?

I'm sure you could defeat me one on one with your gun. But even Hamilton's duel with Burr was illegal, and he was almost charged with murder. I doubt you really want to go down that road. There is no need to be afraid of people like me on any level, or for you to be mad at us or turn against us.

You guys are the ones threatening us. Libertarians don't protect me; they threaten me. You want to take away our precious beaches and forests. Nature is what sustains our bodies and our spirits. It is truly a danger that you want to destroy it. If you claim that you don't, then you don't understand how your votes and your views do just that. You don't see who Trump is appointing at all, or what it means. I am a Green. What I see that needs protecting, is not my liberty to own a gun or pay less taxes to freeloaders. It is Nature that needs protecting, and the opportunity for all people to have a decent life. And you want to take away the social security and medicare from me and others, that I paid for.

You can afford to pay a bit more in taxes, if you earn enough money to afford this. That is no threat to you. Poor people getting help is no threat to you. We aren't going to take your guns away from you by force as long as you really feel you want them. I only seek to persuade folks like you that you don't need them. That is no threat to you.

Trumpland? Where's Trumpland located? Who is approaching/coming at you from so-called Trumpland? At this moment, I've already determined that I would be able defeat you in every aspect related to life but writing. Libertarians protect you more than you'd ever be able to think or realize. You don't pay in/haven't paid in enough taxes (earned the right) to speak to me about contributing more taxes to support you and your interests. You are a non-profit type of person. You think as a blue non-profit. You speak as a blue non-profit. Your values and your beliefs are associated with those of blue non-profit worlds (a population of blue non-profit minded people, a non profit system of governing and a preferred group of non profits ruling). Have ever listened to the lyrics of the song "One Tin Soldier"? Who are the mountain people? Who are valley people? You ain't a mountain person and you aren't associated with the values of the mountain people. You are a valley person who's associated with the values of the valley people. Me, I'm the American who now lives in the area too who represents a soldier of an invisible army that's largely idle therefore available to join a righteous cause to preserve humanity.

(12-08-2016, 11:17 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(12-06-2016, 02:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-06-2016, 01:34 PM)David Horn Wrote: FWIW, the entire 2nd Amendment hyper-vigilance is just so much overactive paranoia.  It lives in the RW echo chamber and feeds on itself.  At a time when violent crime is very low by historical standards, the rush to get guns and go about armed to the teeth is not only unjustified but more than a little pathological.

Now the very wealthy and famous are in a different universe; they are obvious targets.  But folks like us, we're just not that intriguing to the criminal class. I own no guns and have not felt the need to own one EVER!  Just for the record: no one has tried to rob me, enter my home without permission or even diss me in public.  How about you?

Where do you live? How many types of people live around you? How close do you live to higher crime areas? I have higher crime areas within a mile of me and major high crime areas within 15 miles of me. No one has tried to rob me yet but I know people who have been robbed or have had their homes robbed. I know people who have been roughed up and intimidated by groups of people in the area. I'm aware of armed robberies that have occurred not so far away from home.

I missed this, but feel I should respond.

First, I live in a rural area that consists primarily of "locals", who are salt-of-the-earth types primarily, and tend to be lower income.  Since there is a recreational lake in the mix, the small number of "lakers" create a thin line of prosperity along the lake's shoreline.  The lake is large (22,000 acres) and the shoreline long (550 miles), so the laker neighborhoods tend to be spread-out.  The locals outnumber the mostly expat lakers by a wide margin.

So crime should happen here, but it doesn't.  I can leave my doors unlocked and never worry about theft.  Violent crime is unheard of ... except among those who know each other well.  There will always be crimes of passion, though I can't think of a single incidence of murder or manslaughter in the general vicinity in the 15 years we've lived here.

(12-10-2016, 08:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Trumpland? Where's Trumpland located?

Quote:I've got a sense that, in addition to the rise of white racial politics, there's another narrative at work here too that historians will use to understand this whole period.

You've got to ask yourself - why Bush, and then Trump? Isn't it odd that during America's unipolar moment, we elected two of the most unqualified presidents in modern history? This isn't a fluke anymore, there's a trend at work, and I have a feeling as to what it is (I've written something on this earlier):

My gut feeling is that historians are going to look back on the post-Soviet period of intense political polarization in the United States as the beginning of Imperial Decay and the end of the American moment.

Institutions, people and corporations always get flabby in the absence of an external competitor. What happened after the fall of the Soviet Union? In the absence of an external enemy, Americans turned on each other, tearing each other to pieces over marginal differences in policy. When Pat Buchanan launched the "culture war" at the 1992 Republican convention, he was sounding the harbinger of what would eventually augur American decline.

Americans could have gone another way. Americans could have seized the mantle of leadership, capitalized on a unipolar world and led the world against the dangers of the 21st century. But instead the country indulged its very worst instincts, elected two unqualified buffoons to the highest office, and squandered every opportunity fate afforded. As Americans fell to squabbling, the mantle of leadership passed on to others, and the American moment came to a close.

We've grown flabby, incurious and self-indulgent - besotted with fake news, propaganda and infotainment. We're a shadow of our former selves, bleeding from a thousand self-inflicted wounds as we slump off into irrelevance. Like all monopolies, we got lazy and like all late-period empires, we turned that hatred inwards.

The worst part will always be knowing that we did it to ourselves.

(12-10-2016, 09:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I knew it! I remember that song. No doubt that the "One Tin Soldier" song is blue through and through. You guys are the valley people. You hate your neighbors, and arm yourselves against them to the teeth. You Trump followers hate others; you hate Mexicans and Muslims. And you justify it in the name of Heaven; without any doubt, it fits you! You guys lie and cheat, making sure that the rich get all the benefits in life and that most people suffer. That is your ideology; that's what you believe in. You support wars for profit, your side does. You support greed and the ideology that justifies and promotes it: trickle-down Reaganism. And your hero is Goldfinger himself; the Trump man who loves gold. And the treasure you guys want, that you think you have to fight and compete for, and protect with your guns, turns out to really be what we blue people in the mountain have been telling you all along. The ways of peace, not the bloody wars and guns and greed that you valley people want. You are the one in this exchange talking about fighting one on one; not me. WE share with our neighbors, and are willing to pay taxes to make sure it is done. You guys don't. You justify your stinginess by saying we blue people are stealing from you, but you are wrong. Doing your duty to others is not being stolen from. We know we can live in peace and love, and do it, and so don't need guns to protect us. YOU are the valley people, and the valley is the heartland between the Sierras and the Appalachians. That's YOU, pal.

All I can say is, thanks for the softball, Classic!





One Tin Soldier (The Legend of Billy Jack)
by Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter, performed by The Original Caste (1970)
This song was performed by Jinx Dawson and Coven in the movie "Billy Jack" (1971)

Listen, children, to a story
That was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they'd kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,
"With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,
"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.


Read more: http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/onetinsoldier.html#ixzz4SUUqhIVu
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(12-10-2016, 10:04 PM)Odin Wrote:

(12-10-2016, 08:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Trumpland? Where's Trumpland located?

The Kremlin, which is where the puppetmaster of the moron you voted for resides.

(12-11-2016, 12:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-10-2016, 10:04 PM)Odin Wrote:

(12-10-2016, 08:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Trumpland? Where's Trumpland located?

The Kremlin, which is where the puppetmaster of the moron you voted for resides.

The Kremlin didn't reveal anything about the Democratic regime that the Americans who voted didn't already know or figured out themselves. A puppet master needs a puppet that can be controlled with information.

(12-10-2016, 11:52 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The song is actually genuine Evangelical red.

(12-10-2016, 07:15 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(12-10-2016, 04:24 PM)Mikebert Wrote:

(12-09-2016, 05:25 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: You folks on the left are way too paranoid.  The more law abiding gun owners there are in my neighborhood, the less crime, and the safer I feel.

There are a hell of lot more folks killed by gun-wielding mass murderers than by terrorists.  So I would say folks on the right's paranoia about terrorists is ever sillier than the same about spree shooters in the left.

Notice how Galen and I said nothing about terrorists.

(12-10-2016, 03:32 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I wish I could understand you guys from Trumpland a little better. I wonder if there's something more in your minds than just deceptive ideas and fears. What could make you this way? I don't know.