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+---- Thread: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth (/thread-4650.html)
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Eric the Green - 04-23-2021
(04-20-2021, 01:44 AM)Einzige Wrote: Most anarchists are Communists, brain genius. "Anarcho-capitalism" is a contradiction in terms .
Wrong. They are called libertarians, like the one who spams here.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Bob Butler 54 - 04-23-2021
(04-23-2021, 07:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(04-20-2021, 01:44 AM)Einzige Wrote: Most anarchists are Communists, brain genius. "Anarcho-capitalism" is a contradiction in terms .
Wrong. They are called libertarians, like the one who spams here.
I didn't think there were more people like him. I think you just insulted libertarians.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - toli - 04-23-2021
Americans say that Communists are Libertarians.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - pbrower2a - 04-24-2021
(04-23-2021, 07:15 PM)sclady Wrote: Would a higher minimum wage increase costs and discourage people from starting businesses?
Most people who start small businesses do not start with mass hiring. Wage payments of any kind are huge costs to a struggling entity.
Do you know what really gets people to start new businesses?
Hard times.
That's right. Small businesses are low-yield, long-term, illiquid investments. When the choice is a low and uncertain return on investment, long hours, and no leisure -- or on the other side, no income at all -- people start businesses.
The Great Depression was one of the peak times for the formation of small businesses. Think of what was right for starting a business: property rents were cheap; a competent and reliable workforce was available cheaply due to mass unemployment; inventory was available for fire-sale prices without the smell of smoke; many previously-existing entities had vanished as business failures. If you had to hire someone not from within your family, you had an employee who knew enough to draw his kinship network in as customers. Most importantly, there was little easy money to make. But earning a little the hard way was better than being unemployed.
People who start small businesses are often people from marginal communities within a society.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - David Horn - 04-24-2021
(04-23-2021, 08:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(04-23-2021, 07:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(04-20-2021, 01:44 AM)Einzige Wrote: Most anarchists are Communists, brain genius. "Anarcho-capitalism" is a contradiction in terms .
Wrong. They are called libertarians, like the one who spams here.
I didn't think there were more people like him. I think you just insulted libertarians.
Since you mentioned our spammer, You all should know that I'm fighting a losing battle here. The spammer has many open accounts at any given time. If I purge one, and that account started a thread, the thread disappears. I've done it a few times, but try to avoid killing active threads.
Back to the discussion.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Eric the Green - 04-24-2021
(04-23-2021, 08:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(04-23-2021, 07:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(04-20-2021, 01:44 AM)Einzige Wrote: Most anarchists are Communists, brain genius. "Anarcho-capitalism" is a contradiction in terms .
Wrong. They are called libertarians, like the one who spams here.
I didn't think there were more people like him. I think you just insulted libertarians.
Did I indeed? Can I do it again?
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - roadc - 04-24-2021
No one under 45 years old will ever know what freedom was and almost everyone under 55 will live to see the end of the USA.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - pbrower2a - 04-24-2021
There is no timetable for the demise of political systems. The United States of America is already one of the most durable political orders to have ever existed. It now has the second-oldest political order without an unconstitutional or forcible exchange of power.
The USA turns 245 on July 4, and the only older political system in existence is the Hanoverian dynasty in the UK, which passed the 300 year mark a few years ago. The USA is now older than most Egyptian and Chinese dynasties ever got.
Other comparisons? The Romanov dynasty survived for 303 years. I obviously won't be around to collect the bet, but many people now alive (the youngest will 58 years old then) will see the USA outlast the Romanov dynasty. Betting against the survival of the United States has been a sucker bet, with the last person making such a bet being hanged as a war criminal and the second-to-last offing himself in a fetid bunker. Switzerland and the Netherlands date for all practical purposes from the settlement of the Napoleonic era and the Bernardotte dynasty of Sweden arises from Napoleon setting up one of his marshals in Sweden -- who eventually turned against Napoleon and became the progenitor of the current royal family. Those are the third-, fourth-, and fifth-oldest continuing regimes in the world. (The Netherlands was under Nazi occupation during most of World War II, but it had formal continuation in some colonies in the New World).
Yes, I know about the Roman Empire, a valid comparison to the USA for maximal size and influence.... but the Roman Empire was rotten from its inception and lasted over 500 years. The USA keeps redefining itself, usually in positive ways. Donald Trump was the worst redefinition, and it is safe to say that he will not be back politically.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - David Horn - 04-25-2021
(04-24-2021, 10:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: There is no timetable for the demise of political systems. The United States of America is already one of the most durable political orders to have ever existed. It now has the second-oldest political order without an unconstitutional or forcible exchange of power...
Yes, I know about the Roman Empire, a valid comparison to the USA for maximal size and influence.... but the Roman Empire was rotten from its inception and lasted over 500 years. The USA keeps redefining itself, usually in positive ways. Donald Trump was the worst redefinition, and it is safe to say that he will not be back politically.
The Roman Republic may be a better comparison. It wasn't perfect -- far from it -- but neither are we. At least conceptually, we align there better than with any kingdom, empire or similar authoritarian structure.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - pbrower2a - 04-25-2021
(04-25-2021, 08:12 PM)Karen252 Wrote: The world is an Orwellian nightmare now. The US is not a democracy. The government and illegal immigrants don't obey the law. You are on camera constantly, the Gestapo are everywhere, you must give your fingerprints to drive, you are being tracked by license plate readers, you'll be groped if you travel or go to a ball game, you must wear a microchip if you go to Disneyland, you cannot use the Internet if you don't have a phone and you can't get a phone without a facial scan, everything is illegal, the government is wiretapping you, you don't have free speech, you don't have religious rights, guns are banned, the government can steal your property, the government can extrajudicially assassinate you and torture you, cash is illegal, and you cannot escape because the border is closed.
https://archive.org/details/remarkablestoryo00bostiala/mode/2up
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
... and Foxy Loxy generously and cheerfully offered shelter from the falling sky to Chicken Licken, Ducky Lucky, and Turkey Lurkey... in his oven. This is a commonplace story taught in elementary school. I have taught elementary school as a substitute teacher, and I have read this fable several times.
Sometimes cynicism and pessimism have genuine merit, but optimists generally get the better results in life. At the least, optimists better know who the trustworthy people and institutions are, seek them out, and find them. They know that everything good has a price attached, that any valid achievement has effort attached, and that something that others offer that is too good to be true is neither good nor true. Do real work and pay an honest price, and you will do fine.
F--- the criminals. Leave fingerprints behind while doing a crime, and you will be caught. If you weren't at the scene of the crime, then your lie about never having been there will be exposed. As for the police scanning your license plate, it won't matter unless you are a suspected fugitive or you are driving a car reported stolen. San Jose, California introduced computers to police cars, and if a car came up stolen in the computer registry, whoever was driving the car was going to be busted. Auto insurance becomes less expensive because people have fewer claims of stolen cars and fewer accidents from joyriding. Stealing a car in an effort to flee law enforcement becomes futile. Then again, I am no buddy of the garden-variety criminal.
If the country library is any indication, practically anyone can use its Internet -- even if one is a fugitive driving a stolen car. Of course if the local cops read your license plate while you are at the library, you may be in a bad spot. Of course you cannot access pornography through the filter that the library has.
Need I go on?
The sky is not falling. Yes, there are predatory people who may not cook you as dinner, but they will certainly fleece you if you believe nonsense that makes you a mark for a con-man.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Bob Butler 54 - 04-25-2021
Since the progressive era ended, we did have headaches with the conservatives in general and libertarians in particular. With Biden's 100 days about ending, perhaps we are passing the regeneracy and getting into the heart of the crisis. Lots of low hanging fruit, and then we have to get down to work. It is sort of natural that the problems have come to a head. What do you expect when the conservatives have been dominant so long? But still, you have the opposite beliefs. A bunch of people with conservative and libertarian beliefs are dismayed that they are no longer able to press their philosophy. So they whine and cry a lot.
In the middle of the regeneracy? The cops must have immunity to murder? We must have the liberty to murder people and not wear masks? We have to keep up precautions against the terrorists, especially the red ones?
But some still live in never never land.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Bob Butler 54 - 04-26-2021
Nah. You's think the libertarians would be with the majority on this, but the racists think the police state must have the right to murder people. That is one place I would think the right thinking libertarians should think the government should not have that power. There are lots of places where working together for the common good can be more beneficial than blanket rejecting government power. It isn't as simple as rejecting all interactions. Government is common for a reason. It is just that working for the common good has become working for the common good of the elites. Government serves them not the people. It is just as well those that work for the elites and the racists have gone bonkers.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - David Horn - 04-26-2021
Note: I just removed 6 accounts from this thread, all by our spammer. If (s)he would follow basic rules and stick to a single account, I would leave her/him alone.If this interfered with anyone else, let me know.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - pbrower2a - 04-26-2021
(04-25-2021, 11:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Since the progressive era ended, we did have headaches with the conservatives in general and libertarians in particular. With Biden's 100 days about ending, perhaps we are passing the regeneracy and getting into the heart of the crisis. Lots of low hanging fruit, and then we have to get down to work. It is sort of natural that the problems have come to a head. What do you expect when the conservatives have been dominant so long? But still, you have the opposite beliefs. A bunch of people with conservative and libertarian beliefs are dismayed that they are no longer able to press their philosophy. So they whine and cry a lot.
In the middle of the regeneracy? The cops must have immunity to murder? We must have the liberty to murder people and not wear masks? We have to keep up precautions against the terrorists, especially the red ones?
But some still live in never never land.
If Skowronek's theory is right, then we are in for a very new era of politics and economics that themselves reflect technological change that makes scarcity unnecessary. Management by fear will become pointless. Sweating people for the sake of tycoon profits and stratospheric compensation for executives will be impossible. We will probably even see a reversal of the concentration of opportunity in a few places. If you can work remotely, then you can as easily work in Fredericksburg, Virginia or Fredericksburg, Texas.
We will see a more humanistic America and one less plutocratic. Much of what many of us put our efforts into, like buying status symbols, will become pointless. We will work fewer hours to meet basic needs -- maybe even property rent.
The Internet may have been around for about 25 years as something available, and we have yet to fully figure out how to use it to the fullest. Much of the information superhighway has become a pricey toll road, with much that used to be free (like access to news) having a paywall. So it was with satellite television in which one descrambler that allowed one to get TBS also get HBO. TBS charged less, so that was going to change. Businesses will need to find ways of getting around consumer resistance to pay for what was recently free. But cable and satellite TV are far more rigid than the Internet.
We are going to use the Internet for creative activities from writing to visual art to musical performance. It will be a good library and provide museum-like access.
...We had an abortive Regeneracy in the first two years of the Obama Administration before the Master Class bought one part of the political process after another until we ended with the Degenerate One. But maybe we have the Regeneracy that sticks this time because the demographics are with it.
I look at the word Regeneracy and I see its antithesis, Degeneracy (a word more in far use)... or amputation. To regenerate is to restore what was lost or corrupted... and much is lost and corrupted in a 3T. I look at the 3T and I see the shopping-mall "culture", thoroughly-mindless entertainment, bad business practices (as in the savings-and-loot activity in the 1980's, Enrob Corporation, and Bernie Made-Off. Glitz and mindless entertainment become boring after a few years, and those become unwelcome to those who may have known those best -- the participants of the time. I look at the 1920's as the final stage of the previous 3T and note the complete absence of nostalgia for the 1920's. OK, George Gershwin, Giacomo Puccini, Jelly Roll Morton, and the better silent movies were quite good... but the most of the cultural ephemera of the 1920's has been fully composted by now.
![[Image: tumblr_nt8wed3Mnr1suxeeyo1_500.jpg]](https://64.media.tumblr.com/8832054a200835740f85fbe3ac2a798c/tumblr_nt8wed3Mnr1suxeeyo1_500.jpg)
Arguably the worst bilge of the time.
I remember the Lost when they were around in large numbers. It was not for a lack of funds that they did not buy into nostalgia of the 1920's. Many had the means, or someone might have given it to them as a gift had they asked. They did not want it. All that they missed about the 1920's was their long-past youth. The 1930's may have been hard times, but at least the entertainment was often family-friendly and sophisticated at the same time.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Bob Butler 54 - 04-26-2021
(04-26-2021, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Arguably the worst bilge of the time.
Surely the Nazi or Communists put out something worse?
. I suspect it is somewhat objective.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Loga - 04-26-2021
Americans said that they hated freedom 100 years ago because the environment was dirty, there were murders, and medicine was dangerous, but the US is now a police state and the environment is still dirty, there are still murders, and medicine is still dangerous.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Einzige - 04-26-2021
(04-26-2021, 09:20 PM)Loga Wrote: Americans said that they hated freedom 100 years ago because the environment was dirty, there were murders, and medicine was dangerous, but the US is now a police state and the environment is still dirty, there are still murders, and medicine is still dangerous.
Lol capitalism
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - pbrower2a - 04-27-2021
(04-25-2021, 10:17 AM)David Horn Wrote:(04-24-2021, 10:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: There is no timetable for the demise of political systems. The United States of America is already one of the most durable political orders to have ever existed. It now has the second-oldest political order without an unconstitutional or forcible exchange of power...
Yes, I know about the Roman Empire, a valid comparison to the USA for maximal size and influence.... but the Roman Empire was rotten from its inception and lasted over 500 years. The USA keeps redefining itself, usually in positive ways. Donald Trump was the worst redefinition, and it is safe to say that he will not be back politically.
The Roman Republic may be a better comparison. It wasn't perfect -- far from it -- but neither are we. At least conceptually, we align there better than with any kingdom, empire or similar authoritarian structure.
It is telling that the Founding Fathers had little use for the Roman Empire except for monumental architecture. Many knew their Latin, and with the learning of Latin comes a side benefit: one learns the warning signs of a social order (the Roman Empire) f---ing up badly. A model of an American leader was the Roman republican leader Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, who got the powers necessary for saving the system yet stepping down when the danger subsided, as Washington would do in resigning his military commission at the end of the American Revolution. They knew the Bible well, and as one can expect in a society in which the names of Old Testament patriarchs were much in vogue, they knew the political system of ancient Judea well. Although the King James Bible calls the leaders among the Jews "kings" those "kings" were elected. They knew well of the Greeks, but they saw the virtues and vices of both Athens and Sparta and chose the best of both. (The checks and balances that prevented the concentration of power came from Sparta, if without the social regimentation and the militarism). The bicameral legislature was a Venetian touch, the Republic of Venice having had great durability. (Paradoxically the Republic of Venice would not long 0outlast the founding of the United States, Napoleon delivering the death blow to it). Surprisingly the Dutch Republic did not figure much. The Swiss Confederation largely imitated the USA, and not the other way around.
...Maybe some spammers would like to compare the USA to the Third Reich, the Japanese thug Empire, or the Soviet Union... we are clearly nowhere near that evil, and the United States has outlasted all of those by a wide margin. Judeo-Christian ethics are the norm, and those are good for ensuring that when the United States wins a war the defeated power has little cause to strike back. It may be paradoxical, but the era of peace with Germany, Italy, and Japan, when multiplied by three, is rapidly approaching the length of the existence of the USA.
Influence compares to the Roman Empire, Egyptian and Chinese dynasties, and the Caliphate. The British Empire? We just have too much in common for comparison. A historian like Arnold Toynbee in his Study of History found the British Empire and the USA difficult to discuss because they are going concerns. He got to study empires that had gone through their entire lifetimes. He saw a final stage for a civilization when that civilization intertwined with one political system that encompassed the civilization in full, standardizing everything and repressing anything that violated the standards that the system had adopted. That is his "universal state", the final stage of history of a civilization and an empire before its sudden, swift, and catastrophic demise. The system loses its flexibility, its ability to innovate, and its responsibility toward the masses. The barbarians who overthrew the Roman Empire found that the destitute toilers of the great landed estates saw the barbarians as liberators. Give people who have nothing more than their chains, in essence the responsibility to make their irresponsible masters already filthy-rich even more filthy-rich or to indulge their lusts for sybaritic excess while enduring great humiliation, and they will be delighted to tell barbarians where the luxuries are and where the elite wives and daughters of the elites are hiding. For the serfs of the latter decades of the Roman Empire, the barbarian conquest was a great liberation. Sure, we see the laments of the elites -- losing everything, wives and daughters being raped by the conquerors... but the illiterate peasants' tales go unrecorded. Becoming freehold farmers as were their ancestors five hundred years earlier was something to celebrate.
We are far from Toynbee's Universal State, the end stage of a civilization and an empire that controls everything. The imposing edifice of the Universal State barely conceals the internal rot. There can be good times within the Universal State, as Toynbee sees in the era of the four good Antonine Emperors. What would have been the fifth was Commodus, who put an end to that political equivalent of an Indian summer.
The West has had several offers of a Universal State, from Inquisition-era Spain to Napoleon's Empire to the Third Reich to the Soviet Union, all of which offered some dubious perversion of a commonwealth that had terror, repression, and exploitation as norms. All have failed.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Tammy23 - 04-27-2021
If you teach Americans to love morality, freedom, peace, and balanced budgets and then turn around and tell Americans to embrace immorality, tyranny, war, and debt, don't be surprised if people become insane.
RE: Higher minimum wage will kill entry-level jobs and economic growth - Eric the Green - 04-27-2021
Yeah, it was really the "radicals" that were the true noble and honorable ones. The Republicans pushing against slavery and for Reconstruction were called Radicals in the late 1860s.