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RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-10-2020

(09-10-2020, 02:59 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: There's also a very interesting bit of history relevant to today.  In the late 1700s, a group of rebels engineered a coup and set up a Marxist Socialist society -- decades before Marx was born.  Every attempt at Socialism is always an economic disaster, and this was no exception.  They stole from the landowners and soon ran out of other people's money, so they linked up with Chinese pirates who attacked Chinese commercial vessels.  They gave the pirates safe harbor in Vietnamese ports, and markets to sell their booty.  In short, for 30 years, they constructed a plunder-based political economy that relied largely on Chinese pirates for military and financial support.

That's similar to what Bernie Sanders et al want to do today.

No reason to question the first paragraph above.  Sounds right for the time.  I would just question Bernie making US ports into safe harbor for pirates, for people who today would be working against international law.  That seems more like your inability to understand the motives of people you are ideologically blind too, your eagerness to slander those with different values than your own.  Knowing this habit, anyone should be highly hesitant to take your writing seriously.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-10-2020

(09-10-2020, 03:01 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: That's now completely out the window.  No one seriously believes that the Taiwanese people will ever voluntary accept union with China.

I vaguely recall the Taiwanese government saying they would listen to talks of reunification if China adapted things like multi party democracy and a full suite of human rights. They might as well add that it be a cold day in hell. The cold day in hell seems like it would happen sooner.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - pbrower2a - 09-10-2020

(09-10-2020, 03:01 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: ** 10-Sep-2020 World View: China and Taiwan

Guest Wrote:>   Chinese fighter jets buzz Taiwan for a second day as tensions rise

>   https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiwan-china-security/chinese-fighter-jets-buzz-taiwan-for-a-second-day-as-tensions-rise-idUSKBN2610HG

It was not so long ago that the official CCP position was that the
status quo should be maintained, and sooner or later the Taiwan
people would want to become part of China, because China is so
wonderful.  The model, according to this fantasy, was Hong Kong and
the "one nation, two systems" arrangement.

That's now completely out the window.  No one seriously believes that
the Taiwanese people will ever voluntary accept union with China.

For the CCP, that means that there's no choice: It will be necessary
to annex Taiwan through war.  At this point, they may even have a day
already planned.  And with China becoming visibly more belligerent and
nationalistic every day, that day may not be far off.

So Chinese jets buzzing Taiwan may just be to annoy the Taiwanese, or
it may be testing Taiwan's defenses in preparation for an imminent
war.

 A de facto independent Taiwan indicates that the People's Republic of China (PRC) can behave itself, which is some protection for the image of the PRC. Figure that an invasion of Taiwan would practically compel Japan to become a military superpower, perhaps creating a "Tokyo-Manila-Jakarta Axis" or some other variant. Canberra? New Delhi? 

At this point the surest way in which to get into trouble with China is to mistreat ethnic Chinese in a diaspora that contains most of the Pacific basin.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-11-2020

Let’s go down the groups that are instigating and participating violence.

We’ll start with the racist violent policing, the bad cops.  There is no doubt they are racist and violent.  If you feel like murdering someone of color, then do.  I also put them red.  The Democrats proposed laws to curb the racist violent police that did things like ban chokeholds and make a cop who does not stop an illegal racist violent act an accomplice, at least partially responsible for the action.  The Republicans offered a counter bill which offered to study the problem.  No teeth.  It resulted in no change.  Thus, I would label them as red and violent.

The military is not supposed to be partisan, is not supposed under the law to act unless invited in by the governor.  Famously, the original Constitution gave the federal government no police powers.  This did not slow Trump down about the time he wanted to hold his Bible photo op.  The secretary of defense wearing camouflage was put in change of all things violent.  Military helicopters tried to intimidate protestors.  I suspect the pentagon quietly put their foot down.  It stopped.  While for a while the military would be rated as violent and red, after a brief time it stopped.

Trump turned to his secret police.  As I said, the feds officially have no police power.  Still, they have agencies and manpower dedicated to defending federal buildings, guarding federal prisons, inspecting ports and manning borders.  The FBI is often involved in kidnappings and cross state border crimes.  Anyway, Trump stripped his people of identification of what agency they came from and who they were, and instigated and committed violence.  As they were following Trump’s orders, they would be labeled as red.  As they ran afoul of the local governors for making the violence worse, they eventually were sent home.  Much like the military, for a time they were red and violent, then their time was past.  Not much has been seen of them lately.  It was the blue governor’s seeking control of peace efforts who had much to do ending their time.

There are instigating militias active near Portland.  They are loyal to Trump.  They have equipped themselves with with paint ball guns and real guns and have travelled from rural to urban areas in order to instigate and commit violence.  Trump has declined to rebuke them.  They would be red and violent.

The Boogaloo Bois want boogaloo.  They are violent.  These days they usually use Black Lives Matter as cover, which might make them seem blue allies.  However, Black Lives Matter to not promote violence, and the Boogaloo Boys would use any protest as cover.  They will go to whatever protest exists.  As they are generally in opposition to both the red or blue factions, seeking to overthrow the government, it is hard to pin them down on the red blue scale.  They are motivated by something different.  What is common is that they are opposed by both red and blue groups.  Both groups will encourage the good cops to arrest and prosecute them.  Everyone else tends to renounce them.

There are vigilante groups.  They are often well armed.  They defend themselves, their families, their neighborhoods, and in their way enforce the law.  This is what the founding fathers envisaged.  Classic Xer claims to be part of one such group.  It would not surprise me if there were more such groups both red and blue.  As long as the take a defensive role and stay where they live, this seems fine.  This is the first group I have no trouble with.

There are the KKK, the Neo Nazi, and Antifa.  All three would rather protest than use violence.  All three are quite ready to use violence if they have too.  The KKK and Neo Nazi are generally considered right leaning, Antifa blue.  If they leave it as protest, fine.  If they instigate and use violence, not fine.  They might include people who will drive through a crowd or suddenly escalate things from non lethal to lethal levels.  Antifa are anti fascists.  Originally, Antifa countered KKK and Neo Nazi presence.  These days Black Lives Matter, and Antifa might be found near them.  The side that instigates and escalates the trouble is the one I consider more at fault.

The looters are not political.  They are neither red nor blue, generally.  They are out for themselves.  The locals do not like them.  Black Lives Matter do not like them.  The vigilantes don’t like them.  The militias do not like them.  The good cops do not like them.  The bad cops do not like them.  Trump does not like them.  Even Biden does not like them, and that is unusual.  I don’t like them.  If somebody wants to give them a color, they can, but I would paint them a dark shade of grey.

There are the rural militia.  They are clearly red and not yet violent.  They seem to care more about protecting their Second Amendment rights that advocating other causes.  I have not noted them as being active yet.

There is Black Lives Matter.  They are into protest.  Protest is a protected First Amendment right.  As long as they hold to that, do not insist that they hold their protest outside of federal courthouses or police union buildings, let them protest.  If you choose targets that can defend themselves, indeed are itching to defend themselves, you are letting the Boogaloo Boys instigate and commit violence.  Fireworks, brawls and arson are apt to follow.  For the most part they have learned this.  They are holding their protests far from the instigators, forcing the Boogaloo Boys to leave their cover to boogaloo.  Still, the instigators in places have learned to come to them.

And those are the single motives, most of them.  Individuals can and often do have multiple motives.  Someone may go to protest, but if an opportunity for looting arises become a looter.  Some may be peaceful and non violent until somebody else throws the first punch, but they are ready, willing and eager for that first punch.  Some are there to do their jobs, to follow orders, to enforce the law, but the other guys have a different skin pigmentation so they get aggressive.  If you try to label such a person violent or non violent, red or blue, you had best be ready to split hairs.

The two men arrested claimed to be Boogaloo Boys, militia, and Antifa.  Which?  What color are they supposed to be?  If you pretend to know the answer, your view is too simplistic.

What worries me is the various red violent groups, the bad cops, the military, the secret police and the mobile Trump supporters.  Trump supposedly is the law and order guy, but he seeks to escalate the violence.  To the extent that the protesters can keep away from the instigators, fine.  That leaves the Boogaloo Bois, looters and Trump supporters causing trouble today.

Thus, I am dubious about the idea that the violence is caused by Black Lives Matter.  The reds have been instigating a lot of it, but it is only a few reds.  Unfortunately, it only takes a few reds.  The people in the pick up trucks armed with paint guns and real guns are a tiny fraction of the reds, but they change the dynamic.  If the protesers strive to stay away from the instigators, if they avoid the federal courthouses and police union buildings, if the cops can go after the instigating reds, democracy will take over November third.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-11-2020

(09-10-2020, 04:24 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:  A de facto independent Taiwan indicates that the People's Republic of China (PRC) can behave itself, which is some protection for the image of the PRC. Figure that an invasion of Taiwan would practically compel Japan to become a military superpower, perhaps creating a "Tokyo-Manila-Jakarta Axis" or some other variant. Canberra? New Delhi? 

Saigon? Moscow? Washington DC?

It is easy to distract attention away from your COVID guilt, a little harder to make it profitable when everyone on your borders dislike you. How do you extend your naval power through the South China Sea to intimidate India without cruising past a bunch of people you have already intimidated?


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - John J. Xenakis - 09-11-2020

*** 12-Sep-20 World View -- New 'historic' Israel-Bahrain peace agreement generates controversy

This morning's key headlines from GenerationalDynamics.com
  • New 'historic' Israel-Bahrain peace agreement generates controversy
  • Mideast peace continues to be a fantasy objective

****
**** New 'historic' Israel-Bahrain peace agreement generates controversy
****


[Image: g200911b.jpg]
Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas was not included in Friday's peace agreement (Reuters)

US President Donald Trump has mediated another peace agreement, this
time between Israel and Bahrain, following the peace agreement one
month ago between Israel and the United Arab Emirates (UAE). Once
again, the agreement is being described as "historic."

Bahrain will participate in what will now be a three-way signing
ceremony at the White House Tuesday with Israel and the United Arab
Emirates. Trump explained the peace agreements happened because "Even
great warriors get tired of fighting, and they’re tired of fighting."
He suggested that this was just the next step on the road to peace
deal for the entire Mideast. He said that other countries are
considering signing peace agreements as well. He didn't name
countries, but Morocco, Kuwait and Oman are considered possible
candidates.

Those are all small kingdoms. It's not expected that Saudi Arabia
would join the countries normalizing relations with Israel, even
though Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) might consider
doing so, since his father King Salman is opposed to any such
recognition until the Palestinian issue is settled.
However, it's believed that UAE and Bahrain normalized relations with
Israel with the approval of MBS. MBS has supported the agreements
by permitting Israeli planes to fly over Saudi air space for the
first time.

Historically, this is the fourth peace agreement between Israel and an
Arab country since Israel was created in 1948. In 1979, Egypt and
Israel signed a peace agreement between the two countries, in 1994,
Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel, and a month ago, UAE
signed a peace agreement. Thus Bahrain is the fourth country to take
this step.

****
**** Mideast peace continues to be a fantasy objective
****


Long-time readers know that I've reported on and mocked numerous
proposed peace agreements. Every president has a plan for Mideast
peace based on a "two-state solution" -- Israel and Palestine,
side-by-side in peace. Just think about that. On what planet could
Israel and Palestine exist side-by-side in peace?

On May 1, 2003, I posted an article predicting that President George
Bush's "Mideast Roadmap to Peace" peace plan would fail, because the
Jews and the Palestinians would be re-fighting the bloody 1948 war the
followed the partitioning of Palestine and the creation of the state
of Israel. (Mideast Roadmap - Will it bring peace? (1-May-2003)) The most recent was President Trump's
"Deal of the Century" ( Trump announces fantasy 'Peace to Prosperity' Mideast peace plan (29-Jan-2020)
).

When you're trying to do a Generational Dynamics analysis of a situation,
you have to analyze what the people want, not what the leaders want.
Bahrain and UAE are countries far away from Israel, and people probably
couldn't care less whether a peace deal is agreed or not. Generally
speaking, they're more concerned about Iran than Israel.

But the Palestinian people of course do care. So the Palestinian
Authority leaders on Friday strongly condemned Bahrain's decision as a
"betrayal of Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Palestinian issue."
They said:

<QUOTE>"[The Bahraini decision would] support the
legalization of the cruel crimes of the Israeli occupation against
our Palestinian people at a time when the occupation state is
continuing to control the Palestinian lands and annex them by
military force, is working toward Judaizing Jerusalem and
controlling the Islamic and Christian holy sites and is committing
crimes against the Palestinian people."<END QUOTE>


So now suppose that the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, who is 84
years old, decided to sign a meaningful peace agreement with Israel.
He would either be shot dead by his own advisers, or else beaten to
death by Palestinian mobs. Remember that the average age in the West
Bank and Gaza is about 20 years old, and 20 year old children will not
care about a peace agreement that an 84 year old fossil signs.

So the point is that these "historic" agreements are just pieces of
paper, signed by aging leaders, with no relevance to the vast majority
of the population. The peace treaties are nice, but it's the young
people in that majority that are going to determine what happens, and
Generational Dynamics predicts that it will be war.

As regular readers know, Generational Dynamics predicts that there is
an approaching Clash of Civilizations world war, pitting the "axis" of
China, Pakistan and the Sunni Muslim countries against the "allies,"
the US, India, Russia and Iran. Part of it will be a major new war
between Jews and Arabs, re-fighting the bloody the war of 1948-49 that
followed the partitioning of Palestine and the creation of the state
of Israel. The war between Jews and Arabs will be part of a major
regional war, pitting Sunnis versus Shias, Jews versus Arabs, and
various ethnic groups against each other.

Sources:

Related Articles:



KEYS: Generational Dynamics, Israel, Bahrain,
United Arab Emirates, UAE,
ning peace agreements as well. He didn't name
Morocco, Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia,
Egypt, Jordan, Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas

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RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-11-2020

The Israel Bahrain treaty reflects how the clash dominating the Middle East area is not Israel vs Arab, but Iran vs Saudi Arabia.  It may well be that the interest of the Palestinians are still leaning to the old days, but the new conflict is between an Agricultural Age religious perspective and an Industrial Age colonial perspective that is much more comfortable making profits on oil and dealing with the West.

There is a question is how the leaders will profit from conflict.  The dominance of insurgent proxy wars is moving towards the local population determining who is in control.  Loyalty to the various religions is part of it, as well as who which area before the Europeans scrambled the borders.  Autocratic leaders attempting to keep their positions is part of it.  People kept in power and riches by established colonial era borders and oil profits is part of it.  The West caring about who takes ‘terrorism’ abroad rather than the local issues is part of it.  The affinity of the Trump administration not for traditional allies but towards Russia’s interests are part of it.

Even the European way of making war by infantry standing and fighting as opposed to the Arab tradition of cavalry is part of it.  Israel would stand and fight while the herders - cavalry men of the Arabs were into a fast maneuver style of war.  Their war culture was based on horse archers.  It seemed obvious to them that if they were taking casualties they were doing something wrong.  Thus they would retreat.  When confronted by Israel with the European habit of standing their ground, they were at a disadvantage that may or may not still exist.

There is a lot more to the Middle East than bunches of people not liking each other and starting a fight.  I am not part of any of the idealistic loyalties to religion, tribe or ideology.  I do not care what tribe as traditionally dominated a particular plot of land.  That leaves me looking at war as a racket, asking how the leaders will want to use violence to increase their power and profit.  That occurs a lot less than people not liking each other.  In a time of proxy insurgent war, direct use of violence to take some land over is rather hard.  It results in a different perspective than Generational Dynamics obsession with xenophobia resulting in a simplistic one dimensional and dated perspective.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Classic-Xer - 09-12-2020

(09-10-2020, 03:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(09-10-2020, 02:59 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: There's also a very interesting bit of history relevant to today.  In the late 1700s, a group of rebels engineered a coup and set up a Marxist Socialist society -- decades before Marx was born.  Every attempt at Socialism is always an economic disaster, and this was no exception.  They stole from the landowners and soon ran out of other people's money, so they linked up with Chinese pirates who attacked Chinese commercial vessels.  They gave the pirates safe harbor in Vietnamese ports, and markets to sell their booty.  In short, for 30 years, they constructed a plunder-based political economy that relied largely on Chinese pirates for military and financial support.

That's similar to what Bernie Sanders et al want to do today.

No reason to question the first paragraph above.  Sounds right for the time.  I would just question Bernie making US ports into safe harbor for pirates, for people who today would be working against international law.  That seems more like your inability to understand the motives of people you are ideologically blind too, your eagerness to slander those with different values than your own.  Knowing this habit, anyone should be highly hesitant to take your writing seriously.
Bob, you may not be one of them but you are politically aligned with them and supporting them politically.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-12-2020

(09-12-2020, 01:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(09-10-2020, 03:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(09-10-2020, 02:59 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: There's also a very interesting bit of history relevant to today.  In the late 1700s, a group of rebels engineered a coup and set up a Marxist Socialist society -- decades before Marx was born.  Every attempt at Socialism is always an economic disaster, and this was no exception.  They stole from the landowners and soon ran out of other people's money, so they linked up with Chinese pirates who attacked Chinese commercial vessels.  They gave the pirates safe harbor in Vietnamese ports, and markets to sell their booty.  In short, for 30 years, they constructed a plunder-based political economy that relied largely on Chinese pirates for military and financial support.

That's similar to what Bernie Sanders et al want to do today.

No reason to question the first paragraph above.  Sounds right for the time.  I would just question Bernie making US ports into safe harbor for pirates, for people who today would be working against international law.  That seems more like your inability to understand the motives of people you are ideologically blind too, your eagerness to slander those with different values than your own.  Knowing this habit, anyone should be highly hesitant to take your writing seriously.
Bob, you may not be one of them but you are politically aligned with them and supporting them politically.

Pirates?  I am not.  I am not aligned with those that would violate the law, which implies I am not aligned with Trump.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-12-2020

I just thought that as I have already invoked Happy Talk and You've Got to be Carefully Taught on this forum, I ought to look to see if there is another highly political song from South Pacific I ought to invoke.  Surely Rodgers and Hammerstein had a vision into the 21st Century.  Let's see...


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - John J. Xenakis - 09-12-2020

** 12-Sep-2020 World View: Socialists and Pirates

(09-10-2020, 03:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: > I would just question Bernie making US ports into safe harbor for
> pirates, for people who today would be working against
> international law.

Socialists don't hook up with pirates on day one. On day one they
start confiscating the money of the people who are going to live in
their Socialist Paradise -- for the people's own good. After they run
out of other people's money, that's when the hook up with any and all
pirates, crooks, criminals, drug dealers, dictators, etc., they can
find. They also starve, torture, jail and execute their political
opponents still living in their Socialist Paradise.

(09-12-2020, 06:18 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: > I just thought that as I have already invoked Happy Talk
> and You've Got to be Carefully Taught on this forum, I
> ought to look to see if there is another highly political song
> from South Pacific I ought to invoke. Surely Rodgers and
> Hammerstein had a vision into the 21st
> Century.

> Let's see...
> I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right Outa My Hair" - SOUTH PACIFIC (1958)

If you're familiar with the plot of South Pacific, then you know that
Nellie Forbush was just posturing and making meaningless political
gestures in order to gain the support of the nurses. Once Émile de
Becque, a former pirate and murderer, showed up on horseback at the
end of that very scene, she embraced everything the she had claimed to
have washed out of her hair. For Socialists, embracing piracy and
criminals is never farther away than a shower and shampoo.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - pbrower2a - 09-12-2020

(09-12-2020, 08:46 AM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: ** 12-Sep-2020 World View: Socialists and Pirates

(09-10-2020, 03:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: >   I would just question Bernie making US ports into safe harbor for
>   pirates, for people who today would be working against
>   international law.

Socialists don't hook up with pirates on day one.  On day one they
start confiscating the money of the people who are going to live in
their Socialist Paradise -- for the people's own good.  After they run
out of other people's money, that's when the hook up with any and all
pirates, crooks, criminals, drug dealers, dictators, etc., they can
find.  They also starve, torture, jail and execute their political
opponents still living in their Socialist Paradise.

There's a huge difference between social democracy (which depends upon a large, efficient private sector to make it work) and Marxist-Leninist socialism and its variants (arguable exception: Tito's system that seems to have recognized that small business can generate prosperity without generating power for capitalists in the political system). Tito still had a secret police, rigid censorship, and no political competition. China of course has practically abandoned socialism in theory and practice and saves only the icons of Mao.

The Hard Right is as capable as Marxist-Leninist thugs in aligning themselves with very bad people. Typically such people promote economic bubbles that devour capital while creating the illusion of prosperity. The Hard Right is as willing to establish dictatorship complete with torture chambers, concentration camps, and killing pits as the Hard Left. Fascism is basically a reactionary agenda that uses Bolshevik techniques, if not style and rhetoric, in the furtherance of tyranny. Nazi and Commie Newspeak are similarly vile.   

If a bullet is racing toward your head, does it matter why that bullet is heading that way?  

Quote:
(09-12-2020, 06:18 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: >   I just thought that as I have already invoked Happy Talk
>   and You've Got to be Carefully Taught on this forum, I
>   ought to look to see if there is another highly political song
>   from South Pacific I ought to invoke.  Surely Rodgers and
>   Hammerstein had a vision into the 21st
>   Century.

>   Let's see...
>   I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right Outa My Hair" - SOUTH PACIFIC (1958)

If you're familiar with the plot of South Pacific, then you know that
Nellie Forbush was just posturing and making meaningless political
gestures in order to gain the support of the nurses.  Once Émile de
Becque, a former pirate and murderer, showed up on horseback at the
end of that very scene, she embraced everything the she had claimed to
have washed out of her hair.  For Socialists, embracing piracy and
criminals is never farther away than a shower and shampoo.

Pirate? That's new to me. Knowing how to pilot a boat is a survival skill on a small island if one wants to remain connected to civilization. Of course nobody is a 'former' murderer, robber, arsonist, rapist, pirate, counterfeiter, etc. One may not do such things anymore. I thought that Emile De Becque was very much a capitalist, if an agrarian one. Owning and developing a plantation takes capital, of course. 

As with any unexplained mystery in a story (and Michener as well as Rodgers and Hammerstein seem to have deliberately kept that a secret), one can assume whatever one wishes that is not explicit in the story line. If you believe Emile de Becque, then he may have provoked the wrong person and killed in self-defense. De Becque describes his victim as an evil man who said whatever people wanted to hear (as is so with demagogues Right and Left... including Donald Trump, by the way) but collected around him the worst people, as one would expect of a fascist or Commie. Or he may have 'only' killed a bodyguard.  Or you can believe that he is a sociopath (he is charming, which is one hallmark of a sociopath -- I know a couple of them as relatives, and they turn on the charm without cause). Maybe he has mellowed some and lost his old combativeness. 

Michener, a writer of better-than-average potboiler novels doesn't leave ambiguity in the plot line without a purpose. He may have been no Dostoevsky or Hugo, but at least one can turn the pages, 

It is also possible that De Becque killed a Communist demagogue, and family members sent him off to the South Pacific where he could establish a plantation. De Becque might have been a right-winger, but in the absence of French women he ends up with some "Tonkinese" (really Vietnamese) woman who is not going to ask too many questions about his past. But she is deceased, and we know not why. Were I in the position of Nellie Fourbush, I would be more concerned about that than about his Eurasian children.  De Becque is seemingly apolitical and has a choice between going along with the Allies, aligning himself with the Americans and of course the Free French or letting things go as they might. The Free French had no paucity of conservatives and even right-wingers who became as disillusioned with French fascists as with Commies. It could be that the more one knows about Emile De Becque the weaker the story would get. 

OK, I never did read Tales of the South Pacific, but I have seen stage plays and of course the movie. If you read it, then tell me if Rodgers and Hammerstein butchered the story into a gross distortion for reasons other than emphasis

....As for Donald Trump...

"I want to wash that man right out of my hair!
I want to wash that man right out of my hair!
I want to wash that man right out of my hair 
And send him on his way!"

That has nothing to do with a potentially-troublesome love interest.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-12-2020

Most days I visit the YouTube website, and play a few of the videos they offer as ones I would like.  One set is that of The History Guy, who provides short snippets featuring odd bits of history.  He has a few themes.  One is his obsession with military hats.  Another is that he states often that all good stories involve pirates.  He goes a little bit out of his way to fold pirates into as many of his videos as possible.

So naturally, as I thought South Pacific was a good story, Xenakis must be telling the truth for once.  There must be pirates involved somewhere in South Pacific.

Now, I hadn’t actually seen the play, watched the movie, or read the book.  I did know the music.  Through much of the 1960s I took organ lessons.  At one time or another, many of the songs for South Pacific were assigned by my instructor.  Even today, the computer I use to visit this web site is at the center of a MIDI music studio.  I have a music keyboard a lot of the old music from the 60s, and could still play many of the hits of the time…. Including those from South Pacific.  Just though a more professional rig.

Anyway, I just rented South Pacific’s 1958 Mitzi Gaynor version of the movie and played it back using a fancy mixer and two monitor speakers.  No pirates.  No politics among the nurses.  The closest thing was making fun of Nellie for washing that man out of her hair then immediately picking him up in the same scene.  

The closest thing to pirates was a few conversations involving the Japanese.  The American officers seem to agree that the Japanese had much the same policy as Xenakis claims for communists.  I personally wouldn’t make much difference between fascists and communists.  The only difference was that fascists often worked with the capitalists elites, while the communists would replace them.  Otherwise, both were out for the party, not for the people.  

The American officers of South Pacific did not seem to care about the local population, which was an improvement at least on the Japanese of the time.  With hindsight, the Americans kept a few bases but otherwise ignored the locals once there was no longer need for the bases.

It was interesting trying to set the time and place of the action.  Much of it was reminiscent of Guadalcanal.  They seemed to need spotter on something that was very much like the slot.  It wasn’t quite right.  A sign appeared in the movie which indicated Guadalcanal was several hundred miles away.  The planes showed were also Hellcats.  These didn’t appear until well after the Guadalcanal fighting.  Corsairs and Lightnings would have been more likely for land based operations.  The fleet which was shown in the final scene was also a bit big for that early in the war.  I would guess they were somewhere between Guadalcanal and Rabul, but I don’t know of any fleet anchorage along the slot.  Likely it was a fictional island.

Anyway, no pirates. Emile fought a bully rather than being involved in any way with politics.  It was almost like Xenakis had no clue how to respond to my recent posts and had to lie to come up with something.  The only politics was a feeling that autocratic governments were bad.

Which confirms the idea that anyone involved in manipulating the vote, Gerrymandering, manipulating the post office, is that buddy buddy with autocrats, who has an administration full of indicted con men, has shown an affinity for violence and working outside the law, needs to be washed out of your hair, to be sent on his way.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - John J. Xenakis - 09-12-2020

** 12-Sep-2020 World View: Émile de Becque

(09-12-2020, 05:36 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: > Anyway, no pirates. Emile fought a bully rather than being
> involved in any way with politics. It was almost like Xenakis had
> no clue how to respond to my recent posts and had to lie to come
> up with something.

You've managed to build a huge, monumental negative narrative from the
fact that I mis-remembered the details of Émile de Becque's past in
South Pacific. That's exactly the same thing you and others on the
left do do when you take some snippet out of Trump news conferences
and go on ranting forever about that snippet proves that he's a White
Supremacist. It's a standard technique used by the left to cover up
all sorts of things, most recently how antifa-blm fascist thugs are
committing crimes in Democrat-run cities, where they've been
guaranteed impunity for any crimes they commit. For you, one snippet
is all it takes to "prove" some crime about me or Trump, but for you,
burning down a building or raping a girl is not a crime if committed
by an antifa-blm thug.

And believe me, I have absolutely no trouble finding a way to respond
to your sanctimonious crap.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - pbrower2a - 09-12-2020

(09-12-2020, 06:16 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: ** 12-Sep-2020 World View: Émile de Becque

(09-12-2020, 05:36 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: >   Anyway, no pirates. Emile fought a bully rather than being
>   involved in any way with politics.  It was almost like Xenakis had
>   no clue how to respond to my recent posts and had to lie to come
>   up with something.

You've managed to build a huge, monumental negative narrative from the
fact that I mis-remembered the details of Émile de Becque's past in
South Pacific.  That's exactly the same thing you and others on the
left do do when you take some snippet out of Trump news conferences
and go on ranting forever about that snippet proves that he's a White
Supremacist.  It's a standard technique used by the left to cover up
all sorts of things, most recently how antifa-blm fascist thugs are
committing crimes in Democrat-run cities, where they've been
guaranteed impunity for any crimes they commit.  For you, one snippet
is all it takes to "prove" some crime about me or Trump, but for you,
burning down a building or raping a girl is not a crime if committed
by an antifa-blm thug.

And believe me, I have absolutely no trouble finding a way to respond
to your sanctimonious crap.

There was a movie about freedom-fighters who did seek the aid of pirates. That was Spartacus, with a gladiator becoming the leader of a slave revolt in the corrupt Roman Republic. Spartacus (Kirk Douglas) did have his band of rebelling slaves taking precious stuff from slave-owners  so that he could deliver it to pirates who were to take the rebelling slaves home. The pirates would have been paid so well that they could for once do some real good for Humanity instead of raiding shipping in the Mediterranean.  I shall not go further. Watch the movie; it is excellent. 

South Pacific is done well enough as a movie that one can remember much of it to the vignette level. Many of the details are easy to remember, especially if one participates in the play. (I was in the pit orchestra in a high-school performance, thank you).   

Say what you want about Black Lives Matters, but plenty of white people, not all liberal, are getting sick of hearing about black people being killed as the result of police errors -- or worse. Police brutality, contrary to right-wing myth, does not promote lawful behavior by people like the victims. This is not one of those pull-a-gun-on-a-cop-and-die incidents. The job of the police is usually to make the arrest and take the suspect safely to the lockup where what follows is strictly the result of legal process. 

Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have made unambiguously clear that violent and destructive deeds at a protest of any kind are not peaceful protest and are rightfully under the purview of law enforcement at the time of the event (if possible) and the legal system if the response isn't immediate. Peaceful protesters are not reliable allies of those who commit crimes that exploit a protest. 

Americans are becoming increasingly intolerant of violent crime of any kind, whether police brutality or outright riot.  Cameras are everywhere, and the same camera that someone brings to document police brutality that never materializes might instead catch someone torching a vehicle. Oh... you came to this protest and parked a few blocks away.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-12-2020

It is not so much the lie, though I felt it a good idea to include enough details from the movie that there would be no doubt that I had just seen it.

The problem is your habitual lying and slandering.  If someone has different values than you, you will lie and slander.  Thus you created Emile de Becque’s motivations out of whole cloth, deliberately.  You lied and slandered.  It’s what you do.

I have often stated my values including democracy, human rights, equality and justice.  I have said they are comparable with Christian and roundhead American values.  There is good reason why those holding these values would be common and believe in them sincerely.

But rather than discredit any favorable feeling towards democracy, human rights, equality and justice, you will lie and slander.  I think Trump's inability to feel military values helped me see it more clearly.  Many hold autocratic or racist values at a higher level than they hold democracy, human rights, equality  and justice.  At best, they hold the arrow of progress virtues only so far as they apply to them, not as they apply to all.  They are reluctant to say so directly.  They will not stand up and make an argument that one of those values should not be held and held strongly.

So they lie and slander.

Many of the conservative values are honorable and understandable.  Go ahead, say one values independence, low taxes, small government, a strong military, and the military virtues.  I probably am missing a few.  I will make the counter argument of diminishing returns.  Once one party has had a philosophy in place for long enough, it is likely time to swing back the other way.  Such a debate could be interesting if the other guy were willing or able to understand my values.

Elitism and racism are not as easy to let slide.  Unfortunately, the Republicans have picked up money from the elites and votes from the racists.  As it is often said, in order to solve a problem you first have to admit you have a problem.  Getting money and votes might not seem like a problem.  It seems the conservatives are likely going to have an opportunity to reinvent themselves.  They could remain a fanatic, loud minority loyal to elites, racists and Trump.  Alternately, they could purge the garbage and become honest in their views.

But meanwhile the problem here is that you would rather lie and slander someone whose values are different from yours than acknowledge his values.  As long as you are dealing with false motivations for those who disagree with you, you aren’t going to go anywhere.  Any response to me would be a miss.  If you cannot absorb my real motives, if you prefer to lie and slander, how could it be anything but a miss?  How could you expect anyone outside your bubble to take you seriously?

(09-12-2020, 06:16 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: And believe me, I have absolutely no trouble finding a way to respond to your sanctimonious crap.

Not surprised you are not out of lies and slander.  Can you deal with me honestly though?  That would be a change.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - pbrower2a - 09-12-2020

(09-12-2020, 05:36 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Most days I visit the YouTube website, and play a few of the videos they offer as ones I would like.  One set is that of The History Guy, who provides short snippets featuring odd bits of history.  He has a few themes.  One is his obsession with military hats.  Another is that he states that often that all good stories involve pirates.  He goes a little bit out of his way to fold pirates into as many of his videos as possible.

So naturally, as I thought South Pacific was a good story, Xenakis must be telling the truth for once.  There must be pirates involved somewhere in South Pacific.

Now, I hadn’t actually seen the play, watched the movie, or read the book.  I did know the music.  Through much of the 1960s I took organ lessons.  At one time or another, many of the songs for South Pacific were assigned by my instructor.  Even today, the computer I use to visit this web site is at the center of a MIDI music studio.  I have a music keyboard a lot of the old music from the 60s, and could still play many of the hits of the time…. Including those from South Pacific.  Just though a more professional rig.

Anyway, I just rented South Pacific’s 1958 Mitzi Gaynor version of the movie and played it back using a fancy mixer and two monitor speakers.  No pirates.  No politics among the nurses.  The closest thing was making fun of Nellie for washing that man out of her hair then immediately picking him up in the same scene.

It is fun to watch. The military base is obviously fairly distant from the front. The soldiers have it fairly easy... it is an all-purpose site (supply and R-and-R), with the Army, the Navy, and the Marines. For a military base, discipline is quite lax, which it would not be near the front. It's almost paradise, except for one thing: "We ain't got dames"....Bali Hai, which is off limits to the servicemen, actually has women. Native women. 


Quote:The closest thing to pirates was a few conversations involving the Japanese.  The American officers seem to agree that the Japanese had much the same policy as Xenakis claims for communists.  I personally wouldn’t make much difference between fascists and communists.  The only difference was that fascists often worked with the capitalists elites, while the communists would replace them.  Otherwise, both were out for the party, not for the people.
 
There is no question: the Japanese leadership was typical of a totalitarian regime, a criminal syndicate in all but self-title. 
  

Quote:The American officers of South Pacific did not seem to care about the local population, which was an improvement.  With hindsight, they kept a few bases but otherwise ignored the locals once there was no longer need for the bases.

Didn't want those soldiers going to Bali Hai  and leaving behind a little VD and a bunch of half-American children... or even coming back with a war bride. 


Quote:It was interesting trying to set the time and place of the action.  Much of it was reminiscent of Guadalcanal.  They seemed to need spotter on something that was very much like the slot.  It wasn’t quite right.  A sign appeared in the movie which indicated Guadalcanal was several hundred miles away.  The planes showed were also Hellcats.  These didn’t appear until well after the Guadalcanal fighting.  Corsairs and Lightnings would have been more likely for land based operations.  The fleet which was shown in the final scene was also a bit big for that early in the war.  I would guess they were somewhere between Guadalcanal and Rabul, but I don’t know of any fleet anchorage along the slot.  Likely it was a fictional island.


Guadalcanal was as far as the Japanese got.  


Quote:Anyway, no pirates. Emile fought a bully rather than being involved in any way with politics.  It was almost like Xenakis had no clue how to respond to my recent posts and had to lie to come up with something.  The only politics was a feeling that autocratic governments were bad.

I thought it could have been political, but the political orientation of the lethal incident in which Emile was involved was ambiguous -- if political. The bully was compared to the Japanese, though... 

Quote: 
Which confirms the idea that anyone involved in manipulating the vote, Gerrymandering, manipulating the post office, is that buddy buddy with autocrats, who has an administration full of indicted con men, has shown an affinity for violence and working outside the law, needs to be washed out of your hair, to be sent on his way.


Once we wash that man (Trump) right out of our hair and send him on his way (possibly to a Hague tribunal), much can go back to normal rather fast, right? People who have survived COVID-19 who have organ damage (including myocarditis and diabetes) will not quite find life back to normal.  Let us not forget those who lose loved ones.  The casualties are on the scale of a war, but the government will not be giving out any Purple hearts or Gold Stars this time.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - John J. Xenakis - 09-12-2020

** 12-Sep-2020 World View: Criminal matters

(09-12-2020, 07:21 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: > Say what you want about Black Lives Matters, but plenty of white
> people, not all liberal, are getting sick of hearing about black
> people being killed as the result of police errors -- or
> worse. Police brutality, contrary to right-wing myth, does not
> promote lawful behavior by people like the victims.

I don't know anyone (personally or on tv or online) who is anything
but appalled and sickened by the death of George Floyd at the hands of
a white policeman. There may be some variation between those who see
the death as an accident versus those who say that he did it on
purpose, but I've never heard anyone who thinks that it "promotes
lawful behavior by people like the victims." Everyone I know condemns
the death and agrees that something must be done, though exactly what
must be done varies from person to person. In particular, almost
everyone says that the death must be investigated, and that Derek
Chauvin should be criminally punished if the act was intentional.

What appalls me is that antifa-blm thugs across the country are
committing numerous crimes -- assault, looting, burning down
buildings, etc. -- crimes that are CLEARLY intentional and criminal
and not accidental, and people like you refuse to condemn them, and
refuse to demand that the perpetrators should be criminally punished.

You in particular will post multiple paragraphs of sophistry nonsense,
but the bottom line is that you refuse to demand that intentional
crimes by antifa-blm criminals should be published, whereas I and
everyone I know will happily demand that any intentional crimes by a
policeman should be punished.

In the case of black lives matter, there are a lot of people in the
blm movement who are really pissed off that a "good cause" like ending
racism is being hijacked by fascist thugs and criminals that you and
other Democrats refuse to fully condemn.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - pbrower2a - 09-12-2020

(09-12-2020, 08:00 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: ** 12-Sep-2020 World View: Criminal matters

(09-12-2020, 07:21 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: >   Say what you want about Black Lives Matters, but plenty of white
>   people, not all liberal, are getting sick of hearing about black
>   people being killed as the result of police errors -- or
>   worse. Police brutality, contrary to right-wing myth, does not
>   promote lawful behavior by people like the victims.

I don't know anyone (personally or on tv or online) who is anything
but appalled and sickened by the death of George Floyd at the hands of
a white policeman.  There may be some variation between those who see
the death as an accident versus those who say that he did it on
purpose, but I've never heard anyone who thinks that it "promotes
lawful behavior by people like the victims."  Everyone I know condemns
the death and agrees that something must be done, though exactly what
must be done varies from person to person.  In particular, almost
everyone says that the death must be investigated, and that Derek
Chauvin should be criminally punished if the act was intentional.

Good. You have clarified yourself on that position. The sort of people who believe that brutality by law enforcement promotes compliance might include people such as the leadership of a rotten system such as the monstrous regime in Iran, which executes people on confessions achieved with torture. (Iran did so recently, hanging a professional wrestler involved in a protest. Iranian politics is nothing but fear.

Quote:What appalls me is that antifa-blm thugs across the country are
committing numerous crimes -- assault, looting, burning down
buildings, etc. -- crimes that are CLEARLY intentional and criminal
and not accidental, and people like you refuse to condemn them, and
refuse to demand that the perpetrators should be criminally punished.

I am tempted to believe that such rioters who exploit Antifa or Black Lives Matters as a cover for criminal deeds have no obvious connection. Antifa isn't much of an organization, and Black Lives Matters has no organization at all. This said, affiliation is no excuse for deeds that one can see only as criminal.

On the other hand there are pro-Trump goon squads, like the one that appeared in Portland with much the same vehicles and the same combination of Trump and US flags.

Quote:You in particular will post multiple paragraphs of sophistry nonsense,
but the bottom line is that you refuse to demand that intentional
crimes by antifa-blm criminals should be published, whereas I and
everyone I know will happily demand that any intentional crimes by a
policeman should be punished.

I have suggested that people who witness assaults, arson, property damage, looting, and other such crimes report those to law enforcement or local prosecutors. Plenty of people have cameras, video and still. Photographic evidence is even more damning than eyewitness testimony.

Quote:In the case of black lives matter, there are a lot of people in the
blm movement who are really pissed off that a "good cause" like ending
racism is being hijacked by fascist thugs and criminals that you and
other Democrats refuse to fully condemn.

The cause is one thing, but rioters and looters lose whatever credibility they have by taking advantage of a situation. Arrest, prosecute, and if the judgment is such, incarcerate.


RE: Generational Dynamics World View - Bob Butler 54 - 09-12-2020

(09-12-2020, 08:00 PM)John J. Xenakis Wrote: In the case of black lives matter, there are a lot of people in the blm movement who are really pissed off that a "good cause" like ending racism is being hijacked by fascist thugs and criminals that you and other Democrats refuse to fully condemn.

This is the problem.  Pbower promptly renounced the violence.  So have I already.  So has Biden already, has renounced all the violence.  Most blues have.  Trump has declined to.  The Red are the party of violence and have tried to pin it on the Democrats by lying and slander.  As I put it in the memo that listed the motives of the various groups, it is the bad cops, military, secret police and mobile Trump supporters that are likely to initiate and instigate the violence if the blues do not block them from deploying.  (Most rural 'militias' are not traveling to urban demonstrations, and shouldn't be considered a problem yet as long as they don't.)  Yet you in particular and Trump as much as anyone will lie and slander.

Now it is good that you are following the blues on the anti violence front.  We will see how you do with the rest.