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+---- Thread: Revenge of the Forgotten Class (/thread-553.html)
Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Dan '82 - 11-12-2016
https://www.propublica.org/article/revenge-of-the-forgotten-class
Quote:In March, I was driving along a road that led from Dayton, Ohio, into its formerly middle-class, now decidedly working-class southwestern suburbs, when I came upon an arresting sight. I was looking for a professional sign-maker who had turned his West Carrollton ranch house into a distribution point for Trump yard signs, in high demand just days prior to the Ohio Republican primary. Instead of piling the signs in the driveway, he had arrayed them in his yard along the road. There they were, dozens and dozens of them, lined up in rows like the uniform gravestones in a military cemetery.
The sign man wasn’t home, but he had left a married couple in charge of the distribution. I got talking to the woman, Contessa Hammel. She was 43 and worked at the convenience store at a local Speedway gas station after four years in the military. And this was the first time she was voting in 25 years of eligibility...
https://www.propublica.org/article/revenge-of-the-forgotten-class
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Anthony '58 - 11-12-2016
But what if the Republicans now go Ayn Rand full retard and saddle this forgotten class with a whacking great tax increase?
Did someone say "national sales tax"?
If Mitch McConnell can - and does - proclaim the end of the filibuster, that is exactly what they will be saying.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Eric the Green - 11-12-2016
The forgotten class voted to be forgotten even more. That's all they seem capable of doing, in election after election.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Warren Dew - 11-12-2016
(11-12-2016, 11:20 AM)Anthony Wrote: But what if the Republicans now go Ayn Rand full retard and saddle this forgotten class with a whacking great tax increase?
Did someone say "national sales tax"?
If Mitch McConnell can - and does - proclaim the end of the filibuster, that is exactly what they will be saying.
Doubtful. Too many have signed the Norquist pledge.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Anthony '58 - 11-13-2016
How would getting rid of the IRS and going to a national sales tax violate the Norquist Pledge?
And besides, it turns out that McConnell can only end the filibuster on sub-Supreme Court judgeship nominations - and technically, they can use budget reconciliation to repeal the subsidies etc., of ObamaCare, but not to repeal the pre-existing conditions waiver, or even the individual mandate.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Kinser79 - 11-13-2016
(11-13-2016, 03:49 PM)Anthony 58 Wrote: How would getting rid of the IRS and going to a national sales tax violate the Norquist Pledge?
And besides, it turns out that McConnell can only end the filibuster on sub-Supreme Court judgeship nominations - and technically, they can use budget reconciliation to repeal the subsidies etc., of ObamaCare, but not to repeal the pre-existing conditions waiver, or even the individual mandate.
The Filibuster is an artifact of the Senate Rules. As such with a New Congress convening in January the Rules Committee can scrap the filibuster if they decide to. I think that they won't though simply because the GOP realizes that one day it will be in the minority again.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Galen - 11-13-2016
(11-13-2016, 05:03 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:(11-13-2016, 03:49 PM)Anthony Wrote: How would getting rid of the IRS and going to a national sales tax violate the Norquist Pledge?
And besides, it turns out that McConnell can only end the filibuster on sub-Supreme Court judgeship nominations - and technically, they can use budget reconciliation to repeal the subsidies etc., of ObamaCare, but not to repeal the pre-existing conditions waiver, or even the individual mandate.
The Filibuster is an artifact of the Senate Rules. As such with a New Congress convening in January the Rules Committee can scrap the filibuster if they decide to. I think that they won't though simply because the GOP realizes that one day it will be in the minority again.
I made that point at the time Democrats changed the rules and I have been amused by how hard that is biting them in the ass now. Even many Democrats realize that Obozocare is done. If they are smart then they will negotiate to save what they can.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Warren Dew - 11-13-2016
(11-13-2016, 03:49 PM)Anthony Wrote: How would getting rid of the IRS and going to a national sales tax violate the Norquist Pledge?
The Norquist pledge is a pledge not to increase any kind of tax. Instituting a national sales tax would of course increase the national sales tax, even if it involved a substantially larger decrease in other taxes.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Anthony '58 - 11-14-2016
Quote:The Norquist pledge is a pledge not to increase any kind of tax. Instituting a national sales tax would of course increase the national sales tax, even if it involved a substantially larger decrease in other taxes.
When the moon hits the sky like a big pizza pie - that's semantics.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Kinser79 - 11-14-2016
(11-13-2016, 11:08 PM)Galen Wrote:(11-13-2016, 05:03 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:(11-13-2016, 03:49 PM)Anthony Wrote: How would getting rid of the IRS and going to a national sales tax violate the Norquist Pledge?
And besides, it turns out that McConnell can only end the filibuster on sub-Supreme Court judgeship nominations - and technically, they can use budget reconciliation to repeal the subsidies etc., of ObamaCare, but not to repeal the pre-existing conditions waiver, or even the individual mandate.
The Filibuster is an artifact of the Senate Rules. As such with a New Congress convening in January the Rules Committee can scrap the filibuster if they decide to. I think that they won't though simply because the GOP realizes that one day it will be in the minority again.
I made that point at the time Democrats changed the rules and I have been amused by how hard that is biting them in the ass now. Even many Democrats realize that Obozocare is done. If they are smart then they will negotiate to save what they can.
That would imply that they have any sort of long term thinking, and four years is an eternity in politics, remember they are r selected.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Galen - 11-14-2016
(11-14-2016, 11:27 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:(11-13-2016, 11:08 PM)Galen Wrote:(11-13-2016, 05:03 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:(11-13-2016, 03:49 PM)Anthony Wrote: How would getting rid of the IRS and going to a national sales tax violate the Norquist Pledge?
And besides, it turns out that McConnell can only end the filibuster on sub-Supreme Court judgeship nominations - and technically, they can use budget reconciliation to repeal the subsidies etc., of ObamaCare, but not to repeal the pre-existing conditions waiver, or even the individual mandate.
The Filibuster is an artifact of the Senate Rules. As such with a New Congress convening in January the Rules Committee can scrap the filibuster if they decide to. I think that they won't though simply because the GOP realizes that one day it will be in the minority again.
I made that point at the time Democrats changed the rules and I have been amused by how hard that is biting them in the ass now. Even many Democrats realize that Obozocare is done. If they are smart then they will negotiate to save what they can.
That would imply that they have any sort of long term thinking, and four years is an eternity in politics, remember they are r selected.
Good Point. I can tell who you have been listening to lately.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Ragnarök_62 - 08-12-2017
(11-12-2016, 11:20 AM)Anthony Wrote: But what if the Republicans now go Ayn Rand full retard and saddle this forgotten class with a whacking great tax increase?
Did someone say "national sales tax"?
If Mitch McConnell can - and does - proclaim the end of the filibuster, that is exactly what they will be saying.
... Or workers going Galt.
Tax increases? Dunno, but if your poor , you get safety net in return. Piss poor wages?, Not so much.
What I'd really like to see is Amazon fulfillment center workers all go Galt during the holidays.
Now that's sticking it to the man. It was moi who said national sales tax to pay / shore Medicare for all. I reckon either Foxconn makes Ishits here or gets squeezed by the VAT tax. I'm all for a level trading field as well. As for the Republicans, all of their economic proposals sans BAT(VAT) are junk.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Kinser79 - 08-13-2017
(11-14-2016, 04:18 PM)Galen Wrote:(11-14-2016, 11:27 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:(11-13-2016, 11:08 PM)Galen Wrote:(11-13-2016, 05:03 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:(11-13-2016, 03:49 PM)Anthony Wrote: How would getting rid of the IRS and going to a national sales tax violate the Norquist Pledge?
And besides, it turns out that McConnell can only end the filibuster on sub-Supreme Court judgeship nominations - and technically, they can use budget reconciliation to repeal the subsidies etc., of ObamaCare, but not to repeal the pre-existing conditions waiver, or even the individual mandate.
The Filibuster is an artifact of the Senate Rules. As such with a New Congress convening in January the Rules Committee can scrap the filibuster if they decide to. I think that they won't though simply because the GOP realizes that one day it will be in the minority again.
I made that point at the time Democrats changed the rules and I have been amused by how hard that is biting them in the ass now. Even many Democrats realize that Obozocare is done. If they are smart then they will negotiate to save what they can.
That would imply that they have any sort of long term thinking, and four years is an eternity in politics, remember they are r selected.
Good Point. I can tell who you have been listening to lately.
I listen to many people every day. Honestly I don't even know what to label myself as these days. Though my go-to media outlets are Drudge, Breitbart, Molyneux and Christopher Cantwell (who is apparently some sort of National Capitalist/libertarian). My point is that the Dims have high time preferences in general. They always sow the seeds of their destruction themselves.
I really don't want to go into deeper detail than that here, a small section of Dims read and use this forum (and honestly I consider them enemies and like I wouldn't want to give my enemy a gun, I don't want to give them ideas--which are more devastating), as can be evidenced by the 65198498198465198498429882 threads comparing Trump to Hitler and the Confederacy. How much of that is due to the posters being Dim-o-crats or being brainless boomers (the largest segment of that generation since they were born) I have yet to determine. From what I can tell a large segment of the boomer population is stuck in some sort of time warp, and can't determine if it is still the 1990s or the 1960s.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Bob Butler 54 - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 04:43 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I listen to many people every day. Honestly I don't even know what to label myself as these days. Though my go-to media outlets are Drudge, Breitbart, Molyneux and Christopher Cantwell (who is apparently some sort of National Capitalist/libertarian). My point is that the Dims have high time preferences in general. They always sow the seeds of their destruction themselves.
I really don't want to go into deeper detail than that here, a small section of Dims read and use this forum (and honestly I consider them enemies and like I wouldn't want to give my enemy a gun, I don't want to give them ideas--which are more devastating), as can be evidenced by the 65198498198465198498429882 threads comparing Trump to Hitler and the Confederacy. How much of that is due to the posters being Dim-o-crats or being brainless boomers (the largest segment of that generation since they were born) I have yet to determine. From what I can tell a large segment of the boomer population is stuck in some sort of time warp, and can't determine if it is still the 1990s or the 1960s.
While I find you far far more articulate than most, you still focus your information sources tightly and demonize those who disagree with you. The above pretty well pegs you as extreme partisan.
Not to say that comparing Trump to Hitler and the Confederacy doesn't accurately peg others as just as partisan the other way. The cartoon with Uncle Sam rolling up his sleeves had me rolling my eyes.
I don't see the Democrats as holding a patent and monopoly on shooting themselves in the foot. Since Nixon, the White House has been changing hands with such regularity to be absurd. I don't see Trump as breaking the pattern. The country has two sets of values and a confrontational attitude. We seem to be avoiding an escalating spiral of rhetoric and violence. That implies the see saw will continue unless somebody learns to listen.
Given your approach, I don't expect that somebody will be you.
That might be one of our larger differences. You have chosen a side, identified enemies and kept your secrets. I think we are low on ideas, and need to learn to listen, share and develop some new ideas.
Different directions.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Kinser79 - 08-13-2017
Bob, I never claimed to not be partisan. The question is what party. I don't really identify with any party at the moment [my recent affiliation change is due because Florida is a closed primary state--I hope I do not have to explain how closed primaries work] but I would still call my over all political philosophy classical liberal, which has lately been championed most strongly by the Libertarian Party, though I'd not register for a third party due to close primary state issues.
As for keeping secrets. I used the word "here" in that passage. If Galen wants a more detailed Kinserian analysis he knows how to PM me. As do you. Though I doubt you'd like my analysis very much. I imagine like my mother you see the current ideological and cultural struggle in shades of 1968, I see it differently. Let's just say that I think that if what passes for a Left calls everyone to the right of say Hillary Clinton a Nazi, eventually real Nazis will show up, and they will be bringing a much larger mass with them then they otherwise would have had.
As to PBR's cringe worthy propaganda--I expect that from the likes of him.
I do note that you seem to conclude that the Democratic Party represents the Left an the Republican Party the Right. I would argue that neither party accurately reflects either. And never really did. Unlike most European Countries, American parties are not particularly ideological being large tents, often with multiple factions and ideologies competing.
As or the post-Nixon White House oscillation, It precedes Nixon. That oscillation has existed since the end of WW2. I would argue that there is a regular cycle of anti-establishment elections going back before even then. I would not call it a bug of the system, rather it is a feature.
I have far more in common with left leaning libertarians than I do with right leaning authoritarians. (Though I would usually call most of those left leaning libertarians degenerate scum, and to their faces no less.) On the political compass while the left-right axis gets lots of play, it seems to me that the emerging dynamic that isn't paid attention to, and is starting to be is the authoritarian-libertarian axis.
Perhaps Boomers are in an industrial age time warp. The left-right axis dominated the industrial age.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - pbrower2a - 08-14-2017
(08-13-2017, 05:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: As to PBR's cringe worthy propaganda--I expect that from the likes of him.
Like most conservatives I well know how scummy human behavior can be. I know how liars can use words -- even, as the unseen villains in 1984 do, turning words into lies. "Final solution of the Jewish Question"... "Ten years imprisonment without the right of correspondence"?
With Trump as president, Orwell and Solzhenitsyn become much more relevant.
Quote:Perhaps Boomers are in an industrial age time warp. The left-right axis dominated the industrial age.
As a Boomer I can attest to our own worst tendencies: we want the best of both worlds and end up giving the world the worst of both -- if we are the ones who get the best of both worlds for ourselves alone. I have a conscience, which may have kept me from joining the elite party of unconstrained indulgence.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Eric the Green - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 01:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:(08-13-2017, 05:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: As to PBR's cringe worthy propaganda--I expect that from the likes of him.
Like most conservatives I well know how scummy human behavior can be. I know how liars can use words -- even, as the unseen villains in 1984 do, turning words into lies. "Final solution of the Jewish Question"... "Ten years imprisonment without the right of correspondence"?
With Trump as president, Orwell and Solzhenitsyn become much more relevant.
Quote:Perhaps Boomers are in an industrial age time warp. The left-right axis dominated the industrial age.
As a Boomer I can attest to our own worst tendencies: we want the best of both worlds and end up giving the world the worst of both -- if we are the ones who get the best of both worlds for ourselves alone. I have a conscience, which may have kept me from joining the elite party of unconstrained indulgence.
The left-right axis is alive and well, and stronger than ever, and although Millennials and Xers may complain about it, I don't see them offering any viable alternatives. As long as powerful, wealthy people hog all the benefits of automation and globalization, to the detriment of the people and their environment, the left-right axis continues beyond the industrial age. As long as they are able to rig the political system, and arouse the prejudices of their non-wealthy but regressive followers to their favor, then those who oppose them and stand for greater equality and ecology are "the left" and must be supported. That's what's happening, and those who don't see it are truly blind.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Kinser79 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 01:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I have a conscience...
If you have a conscience then explain how you could support HRC. I have a conscience which is why I had to go for anyone but her.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Bob Butler 54 - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 02:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(08-14-2017, 01:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:(08-13-2017, 05:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: As to PBR's cringe worthy propaganda--I expect that from the likes of him.
Like most conservatives I well know how scummy human behavior can be. I know how liars can use words -- even, as the unseen villains in 1984 do, turning words into lies. "Final solution of the Jewish Question"... "Ten years imprisonment without the right of correspondence"?
With Trump as president, Orwell and Solzhenitsyn become much more relevant.
Quote:Perhaps Boomers are in an industrial age time warp. The left-right axis dominated the industrial age.
As a Boomer I can attest to our own worst tendencies: we want the best of both worlds and end up giving the world the worst of both -- if we are the ones who get the best of both worlds for ourselves alone. I have a conscience, which may have kept me from joining the elite party of unconstrained indulgence.
The left-right axis is alive and well, and stronger than ever, and although Millennials and Xers may complain about it, I don't see them offering any viable alternatives. As long as powerful, wealthy people hog all the benefits of automation and globalization, to the detriment of the people and their environment, the left-right axis continues beyond the industrial age. As long as they are able to rig the political system, and arouse the prejudices of their non-wealthy but regressive followers to their favor, then those who oppose them and stand for greater equality and ecology are "the left" and must be supported. That's what's happening, and those who don't see it are truly blind.
If we accept the idea of ages of civilization, the three recent are agricultural, industrial and possibly information. The agricultural would feature the written word, animal power and muscle powered weapons. The industrial would feature the printed word, steam power, and gunpowder weapons. The hypothetical information age would feature computer networks, renewable energy and nukes. While the information or post scarcity would is hypothetical in many ways, the technology changes are a big deal. The development of new patterns is quite plausible.
Eric suggested things have been popping for about 500 years. By coincidence or design, this suggests Martin Luther’s Ninety Five Theses of 1517 as an off the cuff marker for the agriculture / industrial cusp. While it may be a bit early, I’d throw the Hiroshima bomb out as an early marker for the industrial / information cusp.
If those are more or less acceptable, the major transformations between cusps might include the Reformation, the Industrial Revolution, the Enlightenment, shifting political power from the hereditary nobility to democracy, ending slavery in North America with the parallel enabling of the robber barons, the New Deal and the world wars. I’m open to any suggestion of other significant transitions. I’m likely several short.
Looking at these transitions, it is not hard to pick out an arrow of progress. I’d suggest the culture shifts to follow technology, thus elites gaining power through the new technology have an edge. Academic, religious and political theories enable the new elites and common man. Democracy and human rights have done well. Church, politics and even academics have become less controlled by an autocratic hierarchy, more by a competition of ideas.
Thus, while I’m trying to respect tradition and the merit and place of older power structures and ideas, at heart I see much of the transitions we’ve faced as adaptation to new technology and setting the culture to best adopt to a changing reality. Elites who benefit from existing power structures will resist, but the world moves on and to some extent cultures must follow.
The world hasn’t stopped changing. Thus, there will still be elites clinging to power while the culture, struggles with the changes. I don’t see how the technology shifts of the hypothetical information age changes that. The issues change. The change changes. So it has always been over the 500 year interval. Global warming, renewable energy, health care and jobs availability seem lurking changes that in time will demand action.
Must the adaptation come now? That isn’t clear. A great number of folks can ignore problems for another election cycle, or two, or many. The crisis might not seem as blatantly obvious and immediate as past transitions have seemed. There is no government endorsed slavery, or the crushing Gilded Age poverty and repeated economic crashes that let to the New Deal. Without that tension and pressure, conservatives holding the status quo have an edge.
One difference today is the lack of a new elite pushing new technology that requires structural basic changes to become wealthy and acquire power. Capitalism is working fine from that perspective. Thus the frequent alliance between working folks seeking equality and a new elite pursing the levers of power seems to be missing. Without such an alliance, the regular clockwork crises that have ticked on in the Anglo American sequence seems to be faltering.
Another aspect is the incredible energy of the GIs, their willingness to attack and solve problems, ended by the national malaise and unravelling memes. This results in a divided culture where many are unwilling to address problems. I don’t see this as directly tied to the changing technology of the hypothetical information age, but the timing of it makes it part of the puzzle.
There is also the not so subtle racist element of Nixon’s Southern Strategy that was originally kept relatively quiet but has resurfaced openly in the alt right. The idea of vanquishing the supposed black urban welfare queen was a key element of Reagan’s unravelling memes, notably the push to not fund domestic services.
Not simple. There are any number of issues and conflicts in play. Technology and environment are still changing, though. We will eventually have to adapt to it, but the pressure for change may be less as we lack a driving issue that demands now. None the less, there will be progressives attempt to adapt to modern issues, and conservatives attempting to maintain advantageous power structures. I don’t see that changing.
RE: Revenge of the Forgotten Class - Warren Dew - 08-15-2017
(08-13-2017, 05:51 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I have far more in common with left leaning libertarians than I do with right leaning authoritarians. (Though I would usually call most of those left leaning libertarians degenerate scum, and to their faces no less.) On the political compass while the left-right axis gets lots of play, it seems to me that the emerging dynamic that isn't paid attention to, and is starting to be is the authoritarian-libertarian axis.
Perhaps Boomers are in an industrial age time warp. The left-right axis dominated the industrial age.
By "left leaning libertarian", do you mean prochoice libertarians, or do you mean "libertarians" who seem to believe government provision of goods and services works as well as the free market?
As we move toward a first turning, I think movement away from liberty and towards authority is inevitable. As best we can preserve a few of the liberties we have - as happened last time around when libertarians managed to prevent massive government collection of data, except with the IRS where they ensured the data could not be disseminated widely even within the government. I've thrown in with the Republicans because their coalition at least seems to have some room for classical liberals, which the Democrats don't seem to have.
In addition to the cyclical transition, though, I'm also concerned about the secular transition to a postindustrial age. Once war is no longer primarily based on personal firearms, governments will lose the incentive to permit substantial portions of their populations firearm use. At that point, personal liberty, which is largely a mechanism to protect the elites against individuals who feel sufficiently oppressed to engage in assassination, may no longer be seen as a useful concession by the elites.