(07-14-2021, 05:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The part I don't get is that Trump originally devised his no response reaction to Covid to keep the economy going.  Any attempt to save lives in the early days would hurt the economy and thus Trump's chances for reelection.  These days, vaccination helps the economy, but the red culture still suggests taking no precautions.

But I guess putting politics ahead of lives is Trump's way.

(07-14-2021, 05:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The part I don't get is that Trump originally devised his no response reaction to Covid to keep the economy going.  Any attempt to save lives in the early days would hurt the economy and thus Trump's chances for reelection.  These days, vaccination helps the economy, but the red culture still suggests taking no precautions.

But I guess putting politics ahead of lives is Trump's way.

(07-15-2021, 12:12 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-14-2021, 05:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The part I don't get is that Trump originally devised his no response reaction to Covid to keep the economy going.  Any attempt to save lives in the early days would hurt the economy and thus Trump's chances for reelection.  These days, vaccination helps the economy, but the red culture still suggests taking no precautions.

But I guess putting politics ahead of lives is Trump's way.

Case in point via Ron DeSantis:

(07-15-2021, 02:21 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-15-2021, 12:12 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-14-2021, 05:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The part I don't get is that Trump originally devised his no response reaction to Covid to keep the economy going.  Any attempt to save lives in the early days would hurt the economy and thus Trump's chances for reelection.  These days, vaccination helps the economy, but the red culture still suggests taking no precautions.

But I guess putting politics ahead of lives is Trump's way.

Case in point via Ron DeSantis:

Not much is worth mass death. Even military victory at great cost assumes that defeat implies even greater death. Figure that America's war deaths are much smaller than the Jewish population of the United States at the time, and we all know what Satan Incarnate would have done to America's Jewish population had he had the chance. 

The SARS-2 virus is arguably the most destructive enemy that America has faced since Hitler and Tojo. Say what you want about our Commie rivals during the Cold War, they at least valued their own lives about as much as our economic elites cherished theirs, which explains why the principle of Mutually Assured Doctrine made life far safer than rabid chauvinism. 

I just saw video on CNN on the computer (I am no longer on cable, so video breaks up) in which a COVID-19 widow saw her husband in his late stages as his oxygen-saturation went into the critical zone in the low 70's. He pled that his children get inoculated... and they were inoculated the next day. Minot, North Dakota. No previously-existing conditions. 

People are still dying, almost all of them the ones who did not get inoculated.     

Over four million people have been murdered by this virus. A few months ago I compared it to the death toll of the most horrible battle (Stalingrad) in modern times. You know what obvious comparison is next.

(07-15-2021, 10:15 PM)nguyenivy Wrote:

(07-15-2021, 02:21 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-15-2021, 12:12 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-14-2021, 05:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The part I don't get is that Trump originally devised his no response reaction to Covid to keep the economy going.  Any attempt to save lives in the early days would hurt the economy and thus Trump's chances for reelection.  These days, vaccination helps the economy, but the red culture still suggests taking no precautions.

But I guess putting politics ahead of lives is Trump's way.

Case in point via Ron DeSantis:

Not much is worth mass death. Even military victory at great cost assumes that defeat implies even greater death. Figure that America's war deaths are much smaller than the Jewish population of the United States at the time, and we all know what Satan Incarnate would have done to America's Jewish population had he had the chance. 

The SARS-2 virus is arguably the most destructive enemy that America has faced since Hitler and Tojo. Say what you want about our Commie rivals during the Cold War, they at least valued their own lives about as much as our economic elites cherished theirs, which explains why the principle of Mutually Assured Doctrine made life far safer than rabid chauvinism. 

I just saw video on CNN on the computer (I am no longer on cable, so video breaks up) in which a COVID-19 widow saw her husband in his late stages as his oxygen-saturation went into the critical zone in the low 70's. He pled that his children get inoculated... and they were inoculated the next day. Minot, North Dakota. No previously-existing conditions. 

People are still dying, almost all of them the ones who did not get inoculated.     

Over four million people have been murdered by this virus. A few months ago I compared it to the death toll of the most horrible battle (Stalingrad) in modern times. You know what obvious comparison is next.

The other thing is time: Over 4 million dead in ~19 months (the vast majority really in the last 15 months). There are wars which killed fewer people & lasted longer. Even within just the US - projections have us around 1 million dead since March 2020. The Civil War was 4 years long & about 750k died there. I wonder how many people would've been saved had the world treated this with a war-like attitude of 'stop this thing using whatever tools it takes'. Would a worldwide 30-day shutdown/stay home order followed by 6 months of totally closed international borders in March 2020 have caused more harm than what we got? The virus at that time had only a 14-day incubation period, so if everyone on the planet didn't leave home for 30 straight days, it would've automatically stopped circulating.

(07-16-2021, 12:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-15-2021, 10:15 PM)nguyenivy Wrote:

(07-15-2021, 02:21 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-15-2021, 12:12 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-14-2021, 05:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The part I don't get is that Trump originally devised his no response reaction to Covid to keep the economy going.  Any attempt to save lives in the early days would hurt the economy and thus Trump's chances for reelection.  These days, vaccination helps the economy, but the red culture still suggests taking no precautions.

But I guess putting politics ahead of lives is Trump's way.

Case in point via Ron DeSantis:

Not much is worth mass death. Even military victory at great cost assumes that defeat implies even greater death. Figure that America's war deaths are much smaller than the Jewish population of the United States at the time, and we all know what Satan Incarnate would have done to America's Jewish population had he had the chance. 

The SARS-2 virus is arguably the most destructive enemy that America has faced since Hitler and Tojo. Say what you want about our Commie rivals during the Cold War, they at least valued their own lives about as much as our economic elites cherished theirs, which explains why the principle of Mutually Assured Doctrine made life far safer than rabid chauvinism. 

I just saw video on CNN on the computer (I am no longer on cable, so video breaks up) in which a COVID-19 widow saw her husband in his late stages as his oxygen-saturation went into the critical zone in the low 70's. He pled that his children get inoculated... and they were inoculated the next day. Minot, North Dakota. No previously-existing conditions. 

People are still dying, almost all of them the ones who did not get inoculated.     

Over four million people have been murdered by this virus. A few months ago I compared it to the death toll of the most horrible battle (Stalingrad) in modern times. You know what obvious comparison is next.

The other thing is time: Over 4 million dead in ~19 months (the vast majority really in the last 15 months). There are wars which killed fewer people & lasted longer. Even within just the US - projections have us around 1 million dead since March 2020. The Civil War was 4 years long & about 750k died there. I wonder how many people would've been saved had the world treated this with a war-like attitude of 'stop this thing using whatever tools it takes'. Would a worldwide 30-day shutdown/stay home order followed by 6 months of totally closed international borders in March 2020 have caused more harm than what we got? The virus at that time had only a 14-day incubation period, so if everyone on the planet didn't leave home for 30 straight days, it would've automatically stopped circulating.

That's right. Instead we got poor leadership from you know who, and that guy in Brazil, etc.

(07-16-2021, 05:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The problem is that too many places failed to enact any of the appropriate measures. I have seen billboards in Michigan that read "Have fun in South Carolina!"

Yes, 'Rona will be stalking you there.  

Suffocating while hooked up to a ventilator is not my idea of good consequences for anything.

(07-16-2021, 07:18 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(07-16-2021, 05:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The problem is that too many places failed to enact any of the appropriate measures. I have seen billboards in Michigan that read "Have fun in South Carolina!"

Yes, 'Rona will be stalking you there.  

Suffocating while hooked up to a ventilator is not my idea of good consequences for anything.

And their inaction may all but insure that it takes us at least the rest of this 4T Crisis era to fully defeat the global menace known as Covid-19! As long as the Republicans and the anti-vaxxers are allowed to have their way, there will likely continue to be more variants (possibly even ones that are more resistant against the vaccines), things will get worse again (they already are in many parts of the country and the world), and we'll be right back at square one in our fight against this pandemic!

(07-17-2021, 04:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-16-2021, 07:18 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(07-16-2021, 05:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The problem is that too many places failed to enact any of the appropriate measures. I have seen billboards in Michigan that read "Have fun in South Carolina!"

Yes, 'Rona will be stalking you there.  

Suffocating while hooked up to a ventilator is not my idea of good consequences for anything.

And their inaction may all but insure that it takes us at least the rest of this 4T Crisis era to fully defeat the global menace known as Covid-19! As long as the Republicans and the anti-vaxxers are allowed to have their way, there will likely continue to be more variants (possibly even ones that are more resistant against the vaccines), things will get worse again (they already are in many parts of the country and the world), and we'll be right back at square one in our fight against this pandemic!

One of the ironies is that after the usual drama of a 4T that forces fundamental change in political structures and ways of doing things, a 1T is a placid, conservative, and comparatively-uneventful time. Each 4T is different. Because the Big Enemy this time is a virus instead of a hyper-villainous person, this one may end in a whimper instead of a bang.  The SARS-2 virus isn't going to agree to some treaty that confirms a reality beyond denial (Treaty of Paris, 1783), dissolution of an enemy because it has no viable means with which to fight (the Confederacy after it ran out of troops with which to defend Petersburg and hence Richmond), offs itself in a dreary bunker as one of the major enemies closes in (we all know who), or sees itself in economic and military collapse. That enemy will not surrender; it can only be exterminated. 

People are going to pay a high price even if they survive the virus. There will be organ damage. People will get diabetes. People will endure sexual dysfunction. Is brain damage a possibility?

People will have shortened lives, and they may be far less competent at what they did before they got COVID-19. Those who did the right things may be in a far better position in which to pick up the pieces in a  world that better favors them. 

Ideas that prove to be on the wrong side of history die. The United States came into existence because the recently-independent former colonies  could have become republics competing for the same turf only to sell out to some foreign power to get what they want. The vast tract of territory west of the Appalachians could have been big trouble had the states as independent republics warred against each other to decide who would control what turf. The Civil War demonstrated that slavery was inconsistent with Christian morality and modern economics. Fascism has become one of the vilest words in the political lexicon because of Axis atrocities... and even if there are alienated fools adopting Nazi symbols and rhetoric such people are obvious losers who impress us all the wrong way. 

It may be hard to imagine America becoming a more collegial, rational, and egalitarian society that does far better in spreading the prosperity than it has been... but that would solve many of the problems that we now have. When political polarization puts cherished institutions at risk from domestic terrorism, then it must go away. 

Doing things on the cheap may be satisfying for powerful people for an indefinite time, but indefinite times come to an end. Neoliberal economics came with a promise to create such extreme prosperity that economic inequality would be a triviality. It has culminated in severe regional differences in prosperity, with many communities once prosperous  (like Rochester, New York; South Bend, Indiana; Dayton, Ohio) being ravaged economically and people who got consigned to cheap labor finding increasing distress as life goes on. Neoliberal economics depended upon the proposition that the only way in which to reliably create prosperity was to make people already filthy-rich even more filthy rich, to indulge the worst tendencies of the very rich, and to enforce the will of the economic elites. 

We are going to need to change environmental policies just to prevent such a disaster as the heat wave that recently bedeviled the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia. What is to say that the next such heat wave won't appear over the Great Lakes region? -- at least I think this in Michigan. We will need changes in tax laws to promote the foundation of small businesses that have some potential for growth instead of propping up businesses on the downside of their corporate lifespans. (Those firms make high profits as the result of monopolistic concentration or cartelization of their markets or sweetheart deals with the government and they have large bureaucracies staffed with glorified clerks who would rather drive a Buick and live in a McMansion than question the meaning of life). Yes, I have a thread on the business lifetime. Do you remember when the brand-names Sears, Kodak, and Polaroid impressed you? They don't now.  

(I have a thread on the lifecycle of businesses, and I can tie that to the Crisis. In the last 1T, the Silent did relatively little formation of small businesses. The most prominent figures of Silent founders of big businesses were Dave Thomas (fast food), Ross Perot (government contracting), Mike Milken (insider trading), T. Boone Pickens (oil wildcatting), and Warren Buffett (shrewd buys-and-holds). The rest is entertainment and professional practices. Professional practices can make life great for the professionals, but they create comparatively few jobs after their formation. The Silent did little to found manufacturers that could create the blue-collar jobs that really underpin a prosperous society. Consider this: the factory is the most reliable means out of individual poverty. Educated people have proved more job-takers than job-creators.

A 4T brings to an end many failures -- practices that have either limped along until the reality of one last 4T euthanizes them... and recent fads that fail. Many of the assumptions that we have held throughout our lives are going to prove unsustainable. Many of those will not be missed.

(07-18-2021, 11:13 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: First, Boomers will be present in large numbers -- a much larger share at the end of this Crisis (even if it ends as late as 2030) as it was with the Missionary generation at the end of the Second World War. Older Boomers are generally following the pattern that GI's set in the 1970's and that the Silent have continued: staying actively engaged in life as long as possible. We are not going like sheep into the nursing home so that we can be out of the way of out juniors as the Lost did.  We are not going to give up our cultural influence. We might downsize in housing and on jobs... and of course the horrid Boomer executives who saw executive roles solely as means for enriching themselves by enforcing the misery and poverty of workers will be shown the door.  That is the Boomer legacy that Americans cannot afford.

Some Boomers might even appear from seemingly nowhere. The Boomer Right has largely suppressed the Boomer Left, and X and Millennial liberals might  find some of us very useful. We know a few things that the Boomer Right suppressed that Millennial and X leaders might not know.

Some of us might even redefine conservatism to transform it from a pretext for exploitation of people that elites render helpless to one in which people have the responsibility to make things good for themselves. That is libertarianism over semi-fascist corporatism. America needs more enterprise and less bureaucracy, and more innovation and less entrenchment of power. Small business creates opportunity and jobs; Big Business generates profits and executive compensation.

In any event I see Barack Obama more the harbinger of political life of the post-Crisis Era. Sure he is liberal on human rights and economic fairness by standards of the neoliberal Reagan-through-Trump era... but he proved a staunch conservative in style and practice on many things. The coming 1T may be a rejection of populism that has shown how badly it can work on behalf of the Right against anyone else.  Obama was more subtle than the usual chest-pounding types on law and order. "Do the crime and do the time" is his attitude, as shown by the rarity of pardons on his part.

I have often compared Obama to Eisenhower in temperament. This said, a conservative President is going to act much more like Obama than like Trump in practice. Maybe we will see that America is not so much a struggle between tradition and some super-modernity but instead alternative sources and expressions of tradition. Is Trump compatible with Chinese, Korean, Jewish, Arab, or Hispanic tradition? Not in the least!

I'm not sure of what my tradition is in view of being about half German or Swiss and about half English or Welsh... but all I can say about Donald Trump is "Damn you! Damn you! Damn you!" I hate his business techniques, his abusive sexuality, his demagoguery, his contempt for legal tradition, and his solipsism that tells him that what he wants to be true is the truth. I have no children or grandchildren, but I will say this: I would do everything possible to prevent them from becoming like him. If that means getting them to join the Armed Forces or to do salesclerking, factory work, farm labor, or domestic service before they ever set forth into college, then so be it. Human suffering is one way to learn empathy for people who, due to their limited talents, are compelled to endure it all their lives. Being a good person matters far more than being spectacularly competent at what one does for a living. Take that, Bill Cosby, Phil Spector, Jeffrey Epstein,  William Jefferson, Ghislaine Maxwell, Jim Bakker, Kent Hovind, Harvey Weinstein,  etc. Moral disgrace from doing bad things to people should be personal ruin.  

To that end, I expect most people to be concerned that their kids or grandkids become good people -- the old Boy Scout ideal

"A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent."

That rejects being out for oneself alone, cynical, cruel, destructive, and wasteful -- 3T behavior at its worst. Much dies in a Crisis era, but most of what dies other than moribund institutions like businesses limping along as they consumer their assets is fads and crazes from the 3T. Society finds that it can't support those. (By the way -- the Multiversity that offers intellectual rigor but no coherent program of predictable learning from the 2T will die, too).  We are going to see more shopping malls... die. We are going to see televangelists lose their relevance; although religion will be on TV it will be more like church services and educational programs or panel shows than the flamboyant Wealth Cult and ignoramuses ridiculing science because of "evil-u-shun".

The upcoming 1T will be a fairer, safer more equitable world with more opportunity for more people. Institutions will enforce that. People will be happier. Maybe it won't be quite as bland as the last 1T; there will be far more old boomers who draw attention for the right reasons. I hope to be one of those.  

I predict that more and more Americans will deprecate Donald Trump over time. The liberals already do for his degradation of civil liberties and human decency that are grossly illiberal. We are seeing some conservatives reject him for his rejection of necessary traditions -- like respect for protocol and precedent (in that Obama is the conservative and Trump is the radical), valuation of a hierarchy of talent (liberals aren't really against that), and insistence upon rational thought. Such is better for a society that recognizes political polarization as a dead end.

COVID-19 will color attitudes of all people who remember it, whether they be Silent  who will likely go extinct around 2060 or children in early-elementary years of life who cannot avoid seeing the major disruptions of their lives.  The youngest who remember the lessons of COVID-19 will have the sharpest impressions. I expect it to color the political culture and even entertainment. Consider that for years after the French Revolution, aristocrats had parties in which the mocked the Reign of Terror. Consider also that very old people, the last survivors of the Holocaust, keep reminding us of what they went through. We will see that exclusively in print and video as survivors die off. Time extinguishes human memories.