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+---- Thread: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma (/thread-637.html)
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Kinser79 - 03-22-2017
(03-22-2017, 01:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Kinser.
Tired of all the cut pasting. Responding ad-hoc.
Just reviewing one short view on the four basic patterns of human culture. Each period had distinctly different methods for energy, weapons, ways of sharing information and styles of government.
I feel it too soon to call what the mature Information Age pattern might be. It seems clear we’ll have to wean off fossil eventually, but to what? I suspect direct vote computer democracy will be necessary to bypass the influence of the elites, but those committed to the status quo try hard to make that seem unworkable. So far there hasn’t been movement in that direction worth mentioning. If the pendulum keeps swinging, eventually direct vote networked might be tried in earnest.
- Hunter Gatherer: human muscle, wood and stone human muscle, memory and verbal, tribal rule.
- Agricultural: animal muscle, metal human muscle, written language, hereditary empire.
- Industrial: fossil fuel & steam, chemical, printed language, evolving towards democracy.
- Information: ?, weapons of mass destruction and insurgency, computer network, ?
I can’t succinctly articulate why agricultural age peasants never got to vote, but intuitively, yes, that is part of the agricultural pattern.
Yes, the printing press was very important. However, if military and agricultural means of acquiring wealth and power continued to dominate manufacturing, I don’t know that the printing press alone would have triggered a new wave of civilization. That’s an irrelevant question, though. The same sort of technology that created the printing press created enough new sources of wealth to weaken the influence of old nobility. A lot of it was the new class of elites (Robber Barons) needing to replace the old (nobility).
For some reason, you end up aligned with ruling elite classes. You favored the Marxist elite ruling class, and now Trump’s robber barons. You fight for privilege rather than equality. I don’t see the quest for equality as complete in the West. This might be a crucial place where we aren’t going to agree. I will continue to advocate for the races, cultures and genders who are being kept in their place. You seem fond enough of your privilege to continue to cling.
I’m very curious as to what will become in the next 2T. Like your mother, I don’t really anticipate seeing it. By that time, I don’t think it will be possible to deny global warming. I expect a strong element of environmental ideals and activism, and a great deal of anger directed at the earlier generations who denied denied denied, who took zero to weak actions. I am not sure we will have a regeneracy, crisis and high. We might go straight from a 3T stagnant pendulum to an awakening feeling. I anticipate a distrust of corporations, a distrust of representative democracy that becomes a servant of the elites, and strong environmental concerns.
Representative democracy did wonderful things during the transition to the Industrial patterns, but if the government doesn’t become more responsive and united, direct vote democracy might be seen as necessary.
While the next generation of blue prophets won’t be twins of the 1960s hippies, if they look around and see a ruined planet and dysfunctional elite serving government, they might easily be just as angry as the hippies and just as demanding of change.
But that is still just over the horizon. As my magic eight ball is fond of saying, “Answer Hazy, Try Again Later”.
I think that we're mostly on the same page, more or less, mostly we'll be quibbling over details that I foresee that it may actually be impossible for anyone older than X to see. Indeed many X themselves would have trouble with them but I'm hardly a core Xer so...
WRT the information age: If we take into account the computer network alone then we know that we're going to required massive base load electrical energy generation. Wind and solar power are too intermittent for that, and storage solutions are unlikely--so I'd argue in favor of nuclear power of some sort. It is either building nuke plants or have a great leap backward. I'm not in favor of a great leap backward so nuclear it is.
This of course could be solid state nuclear (what most people think of when they think nuclear) but there is an alternative that was developed during the 1950s and 1960s. It both works, and does not allow for mass proliferation of bomb making material--one reason why solid state was pursued. This is of course the Liquid Florine Thorium Reactor or (LFTR).
I would also say that where labor can be replaced through automation it will be. This of course assumes that the whole works don't come tumbling down
WRT the printing press: I would argue that agricultural and military changes became inevitable once it was invented and implemented. Having the ability to produce a massive amount of written material, it became advantageous to learn to read, once learning to read became common plans, ideas and so on could be remotely stored in books that could be accessed by anyone--and not just a handful of monks
WRT to equality: I don't view humans as equal. We are not equally tall, or equally smart, or equally handsome. The very idea that humans are all equal is utopian--not to mention dehumanizing. In order to make everyone equal it is required that some force make everyone equally poor, equally ignorant and equally degraded. One has a choice, he can choose to be free or choose to be equal. I've seen equality and it doesn't interest me in the slightest.
As for aligning with elites...PBR has a theory. But you can get it from the horse's mouth if you prefer. I side with whatever elite seems to be on the winning side. I'm a nomad, I care little ideals or whatever other idealist pie-in-the-sky Prophets would focus on. I have larger concerns--getting for me and mine.
WRT the coming 2T:
1. I think that global warming is a thing. Where I have always differed with the watermelon factions (green on the outside red on the inside--and I men red in the more traditional sense rather than the GOP sense; I often refer to the EGOP and Dim-ocratic parties as the Uniparty, two sides/same coin) is in how much of it is anthropogenic. Evidence seems to indicate that solar out put is increasing as there is also apparent warming on Mars, Venus (both planets have been way behind on the whole industrialization thing btw) and other celestial bodies. Imagine that, an object that contains 95% of the matter in a star system is affecting the other 5%. Who would have thunk.
I do think it should be noted that environmental predictions have about the same track record as other doomsday prophesies.
2. Idealism and activism on the enviromental front is probably going to happen. It happened in the GPSaec and the MillSaec so there is no reason to not expect it in the NXTSaec. Where I think it will differ is on the focus. The past 2T was culture and lifestyle focused, the next one is likely to be ideology and effort focused.
3. We have already had a regeneracy. I see it as having happened during Obama's term. Namely Tea Party and Occupy. The culmination was the election via new media and meme magic of Donald John Trump. He is also the GC if those actually exist--don't let the hair color fool you, it comes from a bottle. We will at some point in the net 8 years hit crisis climax and then shift to a resolution-exposition. I've never liked the term "high" for 1Ts. I think you've already seen my arguments as to why.
WRT representative democracy: I think that as more and more people link up to computer networks should the state continue to have a role direct democracy may indeed be the next wave. Generally speaking though this would mean greater decentralization not more. Indeed just about everything about the proposed incoming information age demands de-centralization rather than centralization.
As to "Blue Neo-prophets". I don't buy into the idea that there is a red and blue really. At least not where the state is concerned. With people there are those who favor liberty and authoritarianism. The left-right divide of the industrial age is giving way to the up-down divide of the information age (See diagram of a political compass).
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Bob Butler 54 - 03-23-2017
Kinser
One can store energy by lifting weights. Battery technology is improving. You might be right in mentioning nuclear, but I can’t judge how the technology will fall out yet. Thus… the question mark.
Labor being replaced by automation is a very mixed blessing. The old model suggests most folk work for a living. The fewer jobs, the further from full employment, the more stressed the old model becomes. I don’t think anyone would be eager to put a large portion of the population on the dole. One might try stronger minimum wages, shorter work weeks and earlier retirement ages. Jobs providing opportunity to work, and thus get society’s rewards, might become a critical shortage.
Improved efficiency shouldn’t be a bad thing. We ought to be able to produce enough stuff to go around. The difficulty is coming up with an economic scheme where everyone has a decent shot at a piece of the pie. The two approaches seem to be lots of folks on the dole, or creating more jobs by letting several people do the work one person used to do, by reducing the number of hours the typical worker does. I’d like to look at the reduce hours alternative.
Aligning with the winning side puts you with the establishment robber barons three turnings out of four. The establishment elites usually get their way. The exception would be the crisis. The robber barons arranging things for the benefit of the robber barons creates inequality of wealth and power. Eventually, enough is enough, and there tends to be a crisis. At that point, the elite ruling class has some scrambling to do. The nobles and slave owners were taken out. The robber barons? I expect at some point their influence will have to be brutally trimmed. It’s not time to start holding one’s breath. If you hook your wagon to the robber barons, you’ll do well for a while yet.
My retirement funds are in the market. I suppose if I were entirely selfish, I ought to root for the established pattern as well. What’s good for the robber barons might hopefully be not bad for my mutual funds. Selfishly, I don’t want a huge wealth destroying Great Crash.
Ideals, though, can be selfish. Ideals say one works together for the common good to share the wealth and produce stability. To the extant that we can produce a sustainable inclusive economy, we might not have to see revolution, civil war, economic collapse and other unpleasantness. If the crisis can’t be avoided, if the current economic scheme must go, if the robber barons cling to the old scene out of self interested but are doomed to fall, then I want a new economic scheme waiting in the wings. Tearing down without being ready to replace the old with something better isn’t my way.
The dominant issues the blue boomers pushed in the last awakening were anti domino theory war, racial equality, gender equality and the environment. Those who would as soon disparage the boomers focus on cultural issues rather than the ideals and issues. Both culture and issues were there. What seems unique about the 1960s awakening was that the new prophets didn’t just propose a new set of values and ideals which were implemented in the following crisis. The GIs were so much into solving problems that they implemented much of what the boomers were loudly demanding. This is part of why I think the 1960s was as much a crisis as an awakening. Stuff got done, with more credit to the GIs than to the boomers.
Humans are not equal in capability, but should have equality of opportunity. Our culture includes prejudices and privileges by race, culture and gender. They are going away slowly. I would like to see them continue to fade.
We haven’t had a clear society transforming regeneracy and crisis. False regeneracies, micro turnings, whatever you’d care to call them, sure. New ideas are tried, fail to win the approval a new dominant culture, thus they get abandoned and overturned by the next administration. We’ve had nothing happen since the awakening vaguely similar in scope to prior crises… adopting democracy, achieving independence from Britain, abandoning the slave economy, the government assuming responsibility to regulate the economy, or switching from traditional isolation to becoming the world’s policeman.
Thus, red and blue matters. The ideas of either faction when implemented without a true mandate strengthens the other faction. The party in charge keeps switching, undoing whatever ‘progress’ the other side attempts to make. The pendulum may be a key dynamic that has broken S&H’s four stroke pattern.
Does Trump have the people skills to hold together a working coalition, or will his narcissism cause things to fall well and truly apart? Will he manage to keep his act together though the mid term elections? These to me are two important pendulum questions that I can’t definitively answer yet. The answers to these questions determine if the pendulum will start swinging the other way, how soon, and how strongly.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Kinser79 - 03-23-2017
Bob,
WRT energy storage. True one can store energy through a weight and pulley system (it is the principle by which my century old grandfather clock operates) but I don't think it can store enough energy to run a server for 15 minutes let alone the on average 12 hours of darkness every night. As to batteries, yes they are improving, they are also incorporating more and more expensive materials and as such if forced to only use renewable energies (wind, solar, biomass) one would likely end up using a lot of shitty batteries rather than one really good battery. In fact lots of shitty batteries would be more prudent.
Over all I think attempting to restrict energy generation to only renewable will require reduction of living standards to an unacceptable point. It would essentially require everyone to live like the more "progressive" orders of Amish. I can't see that happening without a catastrophe causing it.
WRT automation: Raising minimum wage laws, lowering retirement ages, and etc will result in greater application of automation. I think the breaking point will be where the production price of consumables drops to such a point that capitalism itself fails. The question really is can a system designed for an economy of scarcity cope in an economy of abundance.
I would submit therefore, that a whole new economic scheme is required. Maybe the path will be more clear in the next 2T but I highly doubt it. I expect the next saeculum to be the total break down of the existing order. Everything from the EU to the American Empire seem to be headed into that direction (and of course it also conveniently fits perfectly into my Mega-Crisis and Mega-Saeculum theory).
WRT alignments: I expect the capitalist system to hang on by beak and claw until at least the 2T, and perhaps the next 4T. Since I do not expect to live much past age 80 (if that long) that means I won't even get to see the next 4T.
Assuming my projection for a 4T end date of around 2028 I expect the next 1T to end sometime around 2049-50. I will be 70 at that age, already at the average life expectancy. Considering that I smoked for years, do drink, and will probably develop diabetes at some point (family history Type II runs on both sides) I fully expect to be in very poor health by that age. If I manage to hang on for an other 10 years after that (2060ish) I'll probably develop dementia at some point. Assuming I'm still more or less with it I'll probably off myself at that point. I've seen dementia first hand in both sets of grandparents, probably also my parents, and whatever you'd call your uncle's father-in-law.
The BF says that that view is cruel and so on, but my thinking is those are the drooling on oneself and shitting into a diaper years and well whatever god may exist can have them. I did enough drooling on myself and shitting into diapers as an infant.
As such there is no reason for me to not align with whatever powers that be will ensure my survival and the benefit of my family. In short getting for me and mine takes precedence.
WRT Blue Boomer Ideals: Only two of those are worth while. I oppose the domino theory because honestly I oppose an external empire. It costs too much in blood and treasure and the benefits are dubious at best. If Americans want to nation build I have a nation they can build right here in the good old US of A.
As to the Environment, I'm sure that they made great strides. And in some cases they've turned environmentalism into a religion. I"m not into "Gia Earth Mother" nonsense. Rather I would prefer not degrading the environment for purely selfish reasons. I like drinking clean water, breathing clean air and extracting resources. Of course also being both hunter and fisherman I'm into conservation for those reasons.
As to racial equality and equality among the sexes there is no such thing. Equality is not a trait that humans have. Ants and bees don't even have equality and they've had a communistic society for eons. The price of equality is slavery, the price of freedom is inequality. So unless Blue Boomers have some method of changing the very nature of humanity they wasted their time.
At most we can expect that there wouldn't be barriers placed on people due to factors beyond their control. Equality of opportunity does not mean placing "diversity" quotas on any job--doing so merely cheapens the efforts of those who worked hard for their position in life.
WRT Red V Blue: That is old thinking there. I don't think that the new paradigm is one of left vs right. Rather it is one of liberty vs authority. I side with liberty obviously. I really don't know how to explain it well. It is a realization that each may come to, and it may not even come to Boomers and older Xers at all but it is abundantly clear to younger Xers, Millies and Zeds (as my son has taken to calling his own generation--it is based on the British name for the letter Z, he was born in 1999 so I doubt he's a Millie, if he is he's very cuspy much like my BF is very cuspy).
I expect by the time the 1T starts we'll either see the complete domination of the Uniparty in a politically correct hyperauthoritarian state, or we will be embarking on a new era of extreme liberty.
WRT Trump: Never doubt Daddy's people skills. One doesn't take 1 million and turn it into billions without being both street smart and people smart. What comes across as narcissism and bluster to some is actually just him being a New Yorker. Having lived some time in New Jersey and working in New York I know exactly how to take him.
I think that he has a working coalition with the disaffected GOP factions. The establishment factions have always hated him so he needs not concern himself with them. As for the Dims I'm not worried. They've double downed on 8 years of failure and loss so unless they change before 2018 they are no threat. I don't think they will be anything to worry about until 2024.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Bob Butler 54 - 03-23-2017
Kinser
The best gravity energy storage system I’ve seen implemented involved pumping water from a lower reservoir to a higher one. Big lakes. This depends on geography though. You need the right terrain for the lakes. They are also experimenting with flywheel systems. The technology is still changing enough, though, that I haven’t a clear feeling on what will eventually win out.
I agree that the capitalist system is at risk. Your time frame of a large transition come the next 2T or 4T is a decent guess. An economy of plenty replacing an economy of scarcity is a decent way of expressing it. Assuming there is enough to go around, how does one make sure everyone gets a piece of the pie?
We’re going to disagree on equality vs privilege. If a culture has built in schema to keep racial, cultural and gender related groups in their place, some effort should be made to suppress such schemes.
I can agree that we ought to shift off of the red / blue pattern, but values and culture are very very stubborn. Cultures don’t change values unless the old values have utterly failed at a high level. People are going to remain stuck on the independence vs. strong community issues until one or the other fails big time. Even if this divide isn’t necessarily important in and of itself, the capitalist elites are using it as a fine distraction that keeps the pendulum swinging.
Again, your are confusing liberty and privilege.
Your view of your father’s people skills remind me of your opinion on Stalin’s and Mao’s farm management skills. I doubt I can convince you that the sky is blue. We’ll just have to wait to see how things play out.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Kinser79 - 03-23-2017
Bob,
I have no doubt that there will be advances in energy storage. I just do not think it will be enough. Hence why I believe that LFTRs are the way to go. Thorium is plentiful (indeed it is a waste product from most mining operations. It is fissable, and used in a LFTR pretty safe. As for the waste products they emit alpha particles which is orders of magnitude less dangerous than solid state reactors, and being in liquid we can fissile most of the fuel rather than letting 80% of it go to waste as in solid state reactors.
As for the floride salts themselves to keep them in a liquid state they must maintain a temperature above 300c so if the power is cut for whatever reason the reaction can be shut down quickly and the fuel drained into a cool off tank.
I've posted Kirk Sorensen's Ted talk on this and the old forums a few times. What is stopping us is EPA regulations, Department of Energy bureaucracy and stubborn Boomers who hear the word nuclear and immediately think mushroom cloud never mind they use nuclear technology every time they visit their local radiologist.
As to the capitalist system, yes it will come under major stress. The problem is while we've solved the issue of supply we now have to solve the issue of demand. If we are to have everything from bread to ishits made by bots we have to determine a method of distribution to the populace or production will grind to a halt. I do not think socialism as it was conceived of in the 19th, 20th and so-far into 21st centuries will work.
We need to decide if we want to arrest automation in some way, or if we can find a new way to lubricate economic transactions. Unfortunately I have no answers.
As to Red Vs Blue. My point is that the new dynamic isn't one of left vs right but up vs down. I think this image may help you'll probably have to click on it to blow it up to see it clearly.
[attachment=32]
If you look on the right hand side you'll see from top to bottom the following categories: Conservatism, Progressivsm, Libertarianism. Those three vectors of thought will likely be the main viewpoints of the next saeculum. It should be further noted that more and more the Dim-ocrats are becoming the Party of Conservatism, and their brand of "progressivism" is also highly authoritarian. We may retain the names of the Parties but by the end of the turning their dynamic will be permanently changed.
The elites are only interested in the left right divide in so far as it can be used as a distraction from the public. The culture war is moving into a new phase, a media war. New Media vs Old Media. Old Media is going to lose though. The genie is already out of the bottle.
I don't buy into the idea of privilege based on one's race or sex. The evidence for that is sorely lacking in the modern era--and if one has to resort to black and white photos for evidence of it well then they're stuck in a time warp that would embarrass Cuba. Class on the other hand has ample evidence. Unfortunately it shouldn't be the place of the state to make the rich poor. I think it is a conflict of view point. I don't see "making a level playing field" as either possible or desirable (even if it were possible--which I doubt). Rather the goal of government should be to clear the playing field and then let the individual citizens do what they do. There will be some who win, and some who lose. It is the natural order. Without darkness there is no light, without night there is no day, without sadness there is no happiness.
As to Daddy. We shall see. I will say this though in the betting pools I've never lost money betting on him. I was saying he would be elected Prez before the primaries were even over.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Galen - 03-24-2017
It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Odin - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Kinser79 - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
Actually the GOP has always had the solution all along. REPEAL Obamacare. End of discussion.
Replacement is a different matter. Myself I'm in favor of people buying their own damn insurance. If people can be trusted to buy car insurance and home owners and renters insurance they can be trusted to buy health insurance. In fact I'll go further and say that the tax structure that makes employer based health care a prudent choice in compensation packages should also be abolished.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Classic-Xer - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:It's even funner knowing that the Obamacare is going to eventually collapse which is going to screw blue voters (a failure which will result in the loss of healthcare coverage for those who are currently covered by Obamacare ) like yourself worse than those who already have healthcare.(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Classic-Xer - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 01:05 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:I'm not picky about which way people are covered. I wonder how many smart Democrats who actually care about the needs of their voters are still left in the House. The way I see it, if the Democrats themselves (the ones who are supposed to care about the needs of voters like Odin) don't really care about Odin, why should we care about him. Be thankful that you weren't born to be an idiot.(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
Actually the GOP has always had the solution all along. REPEAL Obamacare. End of discussion.
Replacement is a different matter. Myself I'm in favor of people buying their own damn insurance. If people can be trusted to buy car insurance and home owners and renters insurance they can be trusted to buy health insurance. In fact I'll go further and say that the tax structure that makes employer based health care a prudent choice in compensation packages should also be abolished.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Eric the Green - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 01:48 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(03-24-2017, 01:05 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:I'm not picky about which way people are covered. I wonder how many smart Democrats who actually care about the needs of their voters are still left in the House. The way I see it, if the Democrats themselves (the ones who are supposed to care about the needs of voters like Odin) don't really care about Odin, why should we care about him. Be thankful that you weren't born to be an idiot.(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
Actually the GOP has always had the solution all along. REPEAL Obamacare. End of discussion.
Replacement is a different matter. Myself I'm in favor of people buying their own damn insurance. If people can be trusted to buy car insurance and home owners and renters insurance they can be trusted to buy health insurance. In fact I'll go further and say that the tax structure that makes employer based health care a prudent choice in compensation packages should also be abolished.
Welcome back Classic; one of my favorite foils. And I know that you and kinser are two of my biggest fans here
Fortunately, the Democrats DO care about the needs of their voters; that's why they will oppose this stupid Ryancare bill. All it does is raise costs for older middle-aged people, and take away coverage (altogether for 24 million people, and less coverage for everyone else). Higher cost for less care. And, because people are not required to participate, costs will keep rising for everyone. Which is the purpose of the bill: to enrich insurance companies, because that is "free enterprise," and that is "American" (hence the meaningless name of the bill). Supporters of Ryan/Trump care love to call themselves "Americans," which means backward compared to all other "developed" peoples in the world.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Eric the Green - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 01:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:It's even funner knowing that the Obamacare is going to eventually collapse which is going to screw blue voters (a failure which will result in the loss of healthcare coverage for those who are currently covered by Obamacare ) like yourself worse than those who already have healthcare.(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
Obamacare is collapsing in the red states that don't accept medicaid support, which is fine because red states don't support Obamacare anyway. In states like CA that do, Obamacare will probably still work, unless Republicans find another way to cut the rug out from under it.
But it could collapse, which it would not have, if Hillary and the Democrats had won, because then we might have had some real adjustments and reforms to make it work. Republicans, of course, don't want that; they want a "free enterprise" version. But what they have cobbled together doesn't go far enough in the direction of "freedom," which kinser described here. So all Republicans can't agree on just how to repeal and "replace" Obamacare.
The real answer, a single payer approach, is on the horizon if people finally get fed up with these half-assed approaches that mollify the insurance industry, which is an unnecessary middleman that drives the cost and lack of coverage which has caused our healthcare system to fail, and thus led to the recent and current attempts to reform it.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Classic-Xer - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 01:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:That's right, costs will keep rising, insurance companies will continue dropping out and insurance coverage's will continue shrinking as the Democrats opt to do nothing to make themselves look good to their primary voters (contributors). Ain't going to bother me as much as someone like poor Odin. I luv when a liberal rich bitch like Pelosi or a spoiled fucker like Kerry do stupid things/pass stupid things that end up screwing poor idiots like Odin. The developed peoples of the world aren't quite as developed as the Americans of the world. The Americans of the world don't need a single payer system.(03-24-2017, 01:48 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(03-24-2017, 01:05 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:I'm not picky about which way people are covered. I wonder how many smart Democrats who actually care about the needs of their voters are still left in the House. The way I see it, if the Democrats themselves (the ones who are supposed to care about the needs of voters like Odin) don't really care about Odin, why should we care about him. Be thankful that you weren't born to be an idiot.(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
Actually the GOP has always had the solution all along. REPEAL Obamacare. End of discussion.
Replacement is a different matter. Myself I'm in favor of people buying their own damn insurance. If people can be trusted to buy car insurance and home owners and renters insurance they can be trusted to buy health insurance. In fact I'll go further and say that the tax structure that makes employer based health care a prudent choice in compensation packages should also be abolished.
Welcome back Classic; one of my favorite foils. And I know that you and kinser are two of my biggest fans here
Fortunately, the Democrats DO care about the needs of their voters; that's why they will oppose this stupid Ryancare bill. All it does is raise costs for older middle-aged people, and take away coverage (altogether for 24 million people, and less coverage for everyone else). Higher cost for less care. And, because people are not required to participate, costs will keep rising for everyone. Which is the purpose of the bill: to enrich insurance companies, because that is "free enterprise," and that is "American" (hence the meaningless name of the bill). Supporters of Ryan/Trump care love to call themselves "Americans," which means backward compared to all other "developed" peoples in the world.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Classic-Xer - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 02:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:Obamacare is collapsing in my state too. It's probably collapsing in your state as well. I dunno, maybe going backwards is actually better for the Democrats associated with blue America considering how they appear to be unable to keep up with red America.(03-24-2017, 01:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:It's even funner knowing that the Obamacare is going to eventually collapse which is going to screw blue voters (a failure which will result in the loss of healthcare coverage for those who are currently covered by Obamacare ) like yourself worse than those who already have healthcare.(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
Obamacare is collapsing in the red states that don't accept medicaid support, which is fine because red states don't support Obamacare anyway. In states like CA that do, Obamacare will probably still work, unless Republicans find another way to cut the rug out from under it.
But it could collapse, which it would not have, if Hillary and the Democrats had won, because then we might have had some real adjustments and reforms to make it work. Republicans, of course, don't want that; they want a "free enterprise" version. But what they have cobbled together doesn't go far enough in the direction of "freedom," which kinser described here. So all Republicans can't agree on just how to repeal and "replace" Obamacare.
The real answer, a single payer approach, is on the horizon if people finally get fed up with these half-assed approaches that mollify the insurance industry, which is an unnecessary middleman that drives the cost and lack of coverage which has caused our healthcare system to fail, and thus led to the recent and current attempts to reform it.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Galen - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
They had a plan and it was to repeal the ACA entirely. Actually, short of repeal this is one of the best things that could happen for them since the ACA is in the process of collapsing. By not passing Ryancare the Dims still get the blame since they are the ones that created it.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Bob Butler 54 - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 02:40 PM)Galen Wrote: They had a plan and it was to repeal the ACA entirely. Actually, short of repeal this is one of the best things that could happen for them since the ACA is in the process of collapsing. By not passing Ryancare the Dims still get the blame since they are the ones that created it.
Oh, I think there will be blame enough to go around. I think the answer to funding whatever would be a tax on politicians pointing fingers and allocating blame to the other guys.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Classic-Xer - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 02:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The real answer, a single payer approach, is on the horizon if people finally get fed up with these half-assed approaches that mollify the insurance industry, which is an unnecessary middleman that drives the cost and lack of coverage which has caused our healthcare system to fail, and thus led to the recent and current attempts to reform it.You haven't been paying attention as we've been watching/experiencing the debacle and demise of Obamacare. How much value do most Americans place on their current healthcare that they would never allow a bunch of politicians to get their hands on it? However, I do think approaching single payer in mass would create another natural splitting point down the road.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Classic-Xer - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 02:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:America knows who to blame and I don't believe the value that most America place on the federal government and Congress in particular will be increasing anytime soon.(03-24-2017, 02:40 PM)Galen Wrote: They had a plan and it was to repeal the ACA entirely. Actually, short of repeal this is one of the best things that could happen for them since the ACA is in the process of collapsing. By not passing Ryancare the Dims still get the blame since they are the ones that created it.
Oh, I think there will be blame enough to go around. I think the answer to funding whatever would be a tax on politicians pointing fingers and allocating blame to the other guys.
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Eric the Green - 03-24-2017
By Mike DeBonis, Robert Costa and Ed O'Keefe March 24 at 3:37 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/house-leaders-prepare-to-vote-friday-on-health-care-reform/2017/03/24/736f1cd6-1081-11e7-9d5a-a83e627dc120_story.html?utm_term=.54185ef89b5c
House Republican leaders abruptly pulled a Republican rewrite of the nation’s health-care system from consideration on Friday, a dramatic acknowledgment that they are so far unable to repeal the Affordable Care Act.
“We just pulled it,” President Trump told the Washington Post in a telephone interview.
The decision came a day after Trump delivered an ultimatum to lawmakers — and represented multiple failures for the new president and House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.).
The decision means the Affordable Care Act remains in place, at least for now, and a major GOP campaign promise goes unfulfilled. It also casts doubt on the GOP’s ability to govern and to advance other high-stakes agenda items, including tax reform and infrastructure spending. Ryan is still without a signature achievement as speaker — and the defeat undermines Trump’s image as a skilled dealmaker willing to strike compromises to push his agenda forward.
I HOPE SO! I HOPE SO!
RE: ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma - Galen - 03-24-2017
(03-24-2017, 02:03 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote:(03-24-2017, 01:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(03-24-2017, 06:52 AM)Odin Wrote:It's even funner knowing that the Obamacare is going to eventually collapse which is going to screw blue voters (a failure which will result in the loss of healthcare coverage for those who are currently covered by Obamacare ) like yourself worse than those who already have healthcare.(03-24-2017, 03:07 AM)Galen Wrote: It appears that the Freedom Caucus has a good chance of sinking Obamacare lite, or as I like to think of it Ryancare. It looks like after eight years of falling on their sword for Boehner they have decided not to with Ryan. I so much like Rand Paul better now that he is not running for president.
It's fun seeing the GOP fuck themselves over with their own infighting, it will be so ironic that it is the Tea Party wackos who end up saving the ACA. Your side had 7 years, SEVEN YEARS, to come up with a decent alternative plan and work out a compromise between the different factions in your party, but nope.
The GOP is the dog that caught the mail truck, and now the truck has run over the dog.
The real answer, a single payer approach, is on the horizon if people finally get fed up with these half-assed approaches that mollify the insurance industry, which is an unnecessary middleman that drives the cost and lack of coverage which has caused our healthcare system to fail, and thus led to the recent and current attempts to reform it.
If you wish to see what single payer looks like consider the state of the VA system or perhaps how bad Canada's healthcare system is. Perhaps you should pay attention to what some actual Canadians have to say about it first there is Molyneux.
Then there is Steven Crowder and his comments of how wonderful healthcare is in Canada.
No doubt Eric the Obtuse will tell us that they are making this up.