(04-23-2017, 02:44 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: So the main symbol of our time is the discovery of Chiron in 1977 and the other Centaurs in the 1990s. Their nature is that of Kuiper Belt objects pulled down from their height by the gravity of Neptune and Pluto. They are temporary and revolve mostly between Neptune and Jupiter. After a million years or so, they become comets as they fall toward the Sun.

Symbolically, then, in terms of our planetary dynamic progression, they represent regression. Ultimately, the lesson they teach is to integrate all the value memes through which we have evolved into an adaptable, working whole. But in these first years after discovery, they represent the regression we have endured since Chiron was discovered during Carter's presidency. We have in effect fallen below Neptune again, and have regressed through the worst aspects of each planet down to Mars.

This is a regression unheard of before in America, at least, and what happens in America is important, and may be and has been copied by Europe and elsewhere. It explains why some people call this era a mega-unravelling. But it's not an unravelling; it's a regression.

The charming actor made the most of Carter's failing and bad luck. We fell from "socialist, collectivist" Neptune as Reagan pronounced government as the problem. Self-reliance and free enterprise were given free rein again. This is the worst side of Uranus, which had given us the "free market," the industrial revolution and bourgeois power. Libertarian economics was made supreme, and so it remains. But we also regressed down to Saturn, symbol of "big government" itself and all its hierarchy and oppressive flaws, and government that may no longer protect our rights. And what do we get when, with Uranus, we strip away big government? The real bosses; the corporations have taken over. It also represents regression from the spirituality and interest in the paranormal from the consciousness revolution back to dogmatic science-- the ideology that has taken over wikipedia and public broadcasting. And science itself is under attack, especially by those opposed to environmentalism, to which we had arisen with Pluto. So science has to defend itself again. Saturn represents pessimism and cynicism that has become so prominent since the 1980s. Below Saturn is Jupiter, which has returned in its most distorted form as the religious right, and also as radical Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. Little more need be said about what turmoil this has caused since the moral majority came to power in 1980 in the USA, and the Ayatollahs took over in Iran in 1979. And by the time George W. Bush was elected, Empire was in power again too in the Project for a New American Century and the USA invasion of Iraq. Trump now represents this reactionary Mars in power incarnate.

So we have regressed. Will we learn anything, and will we come out of this regressive crisis alive and intact as a nation and world? What lessons is this regression through distorted, outdated value memes supposed to teach us?

Eric the Green Wrote:Beige = the phase when the instinct for survival was still uppermost, and people associated in families. Circa the times from when we became homo sapiens sapiens until about 40,000 or 30,000 years ago.

Quote:Purple = the phase when we organized into tribes and told stories around the campire, worshipped and feared spirits and ancestors and relied on magical thinking. Circa the time of cave paintings up until about 4,000 years ago.

Quote:Red = the phase when war lords and emperors conquered territory, when people worked with metals also used for weapons, sought personal fame and glory, and worshipped male power gods; up until about 300 AD.

Quote:Blue = the phase of authoritarian mono-theist tradition when righteous morals were imposed to control behavior and enlist loyalty to the group. Up to about 1650 AD.

Quote:Orange = the "Enlightenment" phase of individualism and rational science enlisted to achieve material progress, and of secular humanism, the free market and the advance of democratic republican government. Up to the 1960s, or about the 1890s-1900s, depending on the author.

Quote:Green = the phase when feelings and respect for diversity are valued more highly, greater community is sought, and peace and environmental movements are happening. Since the 1960s, at least.

Yellow = a new phase, now emerging since the 1990s among a minority of people, who are interested in theories like Beck and Cowan proposed; called "integral," in which a hierarchy of values and excellence is recognized again, in an adaptable way in which all the value traditions are recognized as valid on their own level in a systemic order. "The world is a complex, self-organizing, natural system that requires integral solutions." People develop "Authenticity, systemic thinking and skills to become an instrument for the greater whole and access to a free (holistic) consciousness."
http://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/

Quote:Turquoise = a proposed future phase in which dedication to the whole and spirituality will predominate over individual quest for excellence in systemic thinking. Perhaps an updated version of blue.

(06-27-2019, 03:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: That's why I insert a Lemon meme, because Lemons are socialists, or social Democrats, but are still mechanistic, like for example Mikebert here.

Quote:Lemon greens are green on ecology because of science, while Greens per se are green on ecology because they love nature and think it's alive, and love everything organic.

Quote:The Turquoise meme people, few though they are, fold in with Green. While Greens are post-modern relativists who respect diversity, their key idea is that we are all one people on one planet.

(07-01-2019, 04:59 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(06-27-2019, 03:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: That's why I insert a Lemon meme, because Lemons are socialists, or social Democrats, but are still mechanistic, like for example Mikebert here.

It's true Progressivism, dominant form of Leftism in the previous saeculum. Today's Leftists should be called Inclusivists, I made a whole topic about this term on Personality Cafe. Being inclusive is a basic human decency for today's Leftists, the word is really used quite often. I find this name better than SJW, which sounds quite derogatory. Terms like leftism, socialism, etc. come from the Rationalist Age and are no longer adequate to this constantly evolving worldview.

Quote:Lemon greens are green on ecology because of science, while Greens per se are green on ecology because they love nature and think it's alive, and love everything organic.

Exactly. From an Inclusivist perspective, Lemon Progressivism was not inclusive enough because it didn't treat animals with the same sensitivity and care it treated humans. Even Tsiolkovsky, who was a real visionary, considered exterminating all animal species which are not necessary for humans, and trust me I was shocked while reading about this idea.

Quote:The Turquoise meme people, few though they are, fold in with Green. While Greens are post-modern relativists who respect diversity, their key idea is that we are all one people on one planet.

We are, but we should be careful while dealing with people who don't share this commitment to an inclusive global community. Dealing with people like the Taliban, Kim Jong Uhn, or even the bosses in Beijing requires toughness and readiness to use violence because nothing else can stop them. I don't trust the Turquoise precisely because they are too naive to deal with a world which is still full of tyranny and barbarism.

(06-28-2019, 03:55 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Good work!

Eric the Green Wrote:Beige = the phase when the instinct for survival was still uppermost, and people associated in families. Circa the times from when we became homo sapiens sapiens until about 40,000 or 30,000 years ago.

I would push it back before behavioural modernity, which started about 70 000 years ago. The animal age. Today, its values might be represented by anti-civilization anarchists as well as some aspects of pop-culture.

Quote:Purple = the phase when we organized into tribes and told stories around the campfire, worshipped and feared spirits and ancestors and relied on magical thinking. Circa the time of cave paintings up until about 4,000 years ago.

The age of tribal societies. It started to end when first states appeared in Sumer and Egypt. Eastern Europe remained in purple stage until
the advent of Christianity, North America until the arrival of White settlers. Some peoples in Africa and South America are still there yet.

Quote:Red = the phase when war lords and emperors conquered territory, when people worked with metals also used for weapons, sought personal fame and glory, and worshipped male power gods; up until about 300 AD.

I would split that into authoritarian, theocratic Bronze Age, and more philosophical Classical Antiquity starting with Pythagoras, Confucius and the Buddha.

Quote:Blue = the phase of authoritarian mono-theist tradition when righteous morals were imposed to control behavior and enlist loyalty to the group. Up to about 1650 AD.

Basically the Middle Ages, but why do you say 1650 AD? The Renaissance started in the 15th century.

Dominion theologists, Islamists, etc. are stuck in the Blue phase.

Quote:Orange = the "Enlightenment" phase of individualism and rational science enlisted to achieve material progress, and of secular humanism, the free market and the advance of democratic republican government. Up to the 1960s, or about the 1890s-1900s, depending on the author.

Keep in mind that scientific socialism developed in the same era. To associate modernism with capitalism only is a very American-centric perspective. Karl Marx belongs in the Orange era as well, as does Lenin.

I would divide this Age of Discovery into two parts, the latter part starting about the time of the American Revolution should be called Industrial Age, or maybe Rationalist Age if you don't want to focus on technology. The primary difference would be less Christian influence in the Rationalist Age.

Quote:Green = the phase when feelings and respect for diversity are valued more highly, greater community is sought, and peace and environmental movements are happening. Since the 1960s, at least.

Yellow = a new phase, now emerging since the 1990s among a minority of people, who are interested in theories like Beck and Cowan proposed; called "integral," in which a hierarchy of values and excellence is recognized again, in an adaptable way in which all the value traditions are recognized as valid on their own level in a systemic order. "The world is a complex, self-organizing, natural system that requires integral solutions." People develop "Authenticity, systemic thinking and skills to become an instrument for the greater whole and access to a free (holistic) consciousness."
http://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/

The millennial saeculum should be one period on this scale. It might be defined by the ethics of care and sensitivity: decline of the death penalty, more emphasis on self-expression and the environment than on advancing civilization at all costs. Postwar American intellectuals are such a bunch of care bears, it's cute and necessary to an extent, but must be balanced by rationalism of the Orange phase and some discipline-oriented morality from yet earlier ages. The Age of Sensitivity still has some work to do, since the power of acquisitors still exists and has to be eliminated fully before progressing to another era.

The counterculture's emphasis on emotions was necessary after a period of purely celebral attitudes. Even scientists admit they didn't study emotions properly before the millennial saeculum because they thought feeling belongs to the realm of art only, while politics, economics and science were supposed to be purely rational in the Orange phase.

Quote:Turquoise = a proposed future phase in which dedication to the whole and spirituality will predominate over individual quest for excellence in systemic thinking. Perhaps an updated version of blue.

Something like Neil DeGrasse Tyson's "cosmic perspective"? If so, I wholeheartedly agree. Though the future will have many ages as well, it's arrogant to assume we are near the top of the ladder.

To sum up, I'd list the ages as:
Beige - Survival Age - until 70000 BC or so
Purple - Tribal Age - until 3000 BC
Red - Age of Tyrants / Bronze Age - until 500 BC
Yellow (?) -Age of Harmony / Classical Antiquity - until 300 AD
Blue - Theocratic Age / Middle Ages - until 1450 AD
Orange - Age of Discovery - until 1775 AD
Amber - Rationalist Age / Industrial Age - until 1945 AD
Green - Age of Sensitivity / Electronic Age - now
Turquoise - Cosmic Age - future
(...)

(07-01-2019, 01:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm not sure which post you are quoting there; this is my summary as I see it of the conventional view of Spiral Dynamics; not fully my own view.

Quote:My Orange/Uranus Age, together with the Lemon/Neptune phase, is the Amber Rationalist Industrial Age you cite. Politics being important to spiral and planetary dynamics, I split this up into individualist classical liberal (Uranus/Orange) and socialist/social liberalism (Neptune/Lemon). This split is important, and remains the primary driver of our Red/Blue political split today, and of the Cold War before that. But I designate the two fruity memes (your Amber meme) as partners.

Quote:I do agree that the circa 600-500 BC era was very transformational indeed. It is called the Axis Age. This is significantly indicated by astrology, more than by spiral dynamics, which lumps the two periods together as red. In circa 577 BC Uranus, Neptune and Pluto formed a triple conjunction for the only time in history, and probably the closest such line-up in all of human existence. All 3 planets of enlightenment in conjunction is a big deal.

But for spiral and planetary dynamics, the red/Mars dominion remained in power up to the Fall of Rome (or more-exactly to the Constantine religious takeover of the empire in 300 AD), but blue/Jupiter was "rising," as I see it, from circa 570 BC to 300 AD, and that represented the philosophical and religious awakening that was growing among enlightened people and spiritual advisors, but only came into power in the Middle Ages or Age of Faith.

Quote:As you probably know, I inserted a Pink/Venus Age to represent the enormous change brought by the Age of Agriculture and Herding culture around 8000 BC.

Quote:The red/Mars empires and tyrants and the metal ages really got going only with Sargon in circa 2100 BC., though there was minor warlike behavior before that which I call "Mars rising."

(07-02-2019, 06:31 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(07-01-2019, 01:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: As you probably know, I inserted a Pink/Venus Age to represent the enormous change brought by the Age of Agriculture and Herding culture around 8000 BC.

Of course, the neolithic was different from the Palaeolithic. Pink and Venus usually symbolise women, do you think the neolithic cultures were matriarchal?

Quote:

Quote:The red/Mars empires and tyrants and the metal ages really got going only with Sargon in circa 2100 BC., though there was minor warlike behavior before that which I call "Mars rising."

Primitive humans were very warlike, you may know a book called "War before civilisation" by Lawrence Keeley. The statistics show more people died in warfare among hunter-gatherers than during WW2. But primitive war was poorly organised, and noone had technological advantage since everybody fought only with spears and bows. So the psychological effects of tribal wars must have been less devastating than in the age of tyrants.

(07-05-2019, 02:03 PM)Bill the Piper Wrote: Now I see that spiral dynamics matches my political colour code well:

Red = Nationalist/Fascist (on my chart, Blue)
Blue = Traditionalist (Black)
Orange = Classical Liberal (Yellow)
Lemon = Scientific Socialist (Red)
Green = Countercultural (Purple)

Though I'm not sure if the nationalists aren't a variety of Lemon, another form of state capitalism only with a more military-based structure. Their militarism is definitely a throwback to the Red stage, but their views on culture are surprisingly close to Lemons' scientism. It's especially visible in the Arab world, where "national liberation" movements like Baathism aimed at Westernizing their nations culturally in order to expunge the influence of Blue theocrats. But even Hitler was quite modernist in many ways.

(07-08-2019, 11:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I think though that is a good match overall. Although historically Red in Spiral Dynamics referred to the ancient military empires and warlords, and not to modern nations, today that Red approach is most typically apparent in the fascist and nationalist movements and states.

(07-08-2019, 11:24 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:

(07-08-2019, 11:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I think though that is a good match overall. Although historically Red in Spiral Dynamics referred to the ancient military empires and warlords, and not to modern nations, today that Red approach is most typically apparent in the fascist and nationalist movements and states.

Nazism was a fusion of the two worldviews, Red was found in occult Nazism, represented by the SS elite and today's Satanists inspired by Nazi occultism. Lemon was represented by the socialist side of Nazism, embodied by types like Otto Strasser.

Spanish fascism was more of a fusion of Blue and Red.

(07-08-2019, 04:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes, but occultism is mostly a side issue; occultism is basically Purple or Green in Spiral Dynamics.  The Red in Nazism was found in its militarism and its drive for conquest. The religious element in ancient Red (besides the outright worship of the leader himself) was the worship of male war gods, and that was apparent in Nazi reverence for the German and Nordic nationalist war-god mythology celebrated by Wagner. Worship of the leader is also pretty much replicated in modern nationalist Red memes.

Quote:Although restrained by the constitution, and by elements in his own administration, if Trump had his way he would assume rule as a fascist dictator without any hesitation. He is literally Mussolini reincarnate, and his appeal and methods are entirely fascist.