Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory
The Maelstrom of Violence - Printable Version

+- Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory (http://generational-theory.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Fourth Turning Forums (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Current Events (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-34.html)
+---- Forum: General Political Discussion (http://generational-theory.com/forum/forum-15.html)
+---- Thread: The Maelstrom of Violence (/thread-824.html)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - David Horn - 01-25-2021

(01-25-2021, 02:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 01:02 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

The world's leading authorities on infectious diseases determined that COVID19 may be a novel virus, it's not a manufactured one.  What authority does FOX call on for it's baseless claim?

The chance of a bat from this part of the world and a bat from that part of the world coming in contact with each other then coming in contact with another animal of some sort (undetermined by science at the moment) before coming into contact with a human and then spreading world wide is what? One in a billion chance? There's a group of scientists who know that the virus was made by man in a laboratory in Wuhan, China. So, where did you get your information? China or a group of leading authorities who are in business with China?

The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale. Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - pbrower2a - 01-25-2021

(01-24-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 10:59 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-23-2021, 02:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The COVID-19 pandemic is 'unnatural' in that such a pandemic supposedly does not fester in an advanced industrial society with a sophisticated political system -- until it does...

I don't agree. What made COVID so devastating in both the UK and the US was the unwillingness or incapability of the citizenry to comply with health restrictions, coupled with faux-frugality that meant it was impossible for most people (read: not well educated and/or well-to-do) to follow the strict rules.  Sorry, but
both are features not bugs.

We're in the middle of a global pandemic and if you think wearing a flimsy mask is going to prevent you or a loved one from getting it or bringing it home then you're being foolish. I don't know anyone who didn't get it while wearing a mask in public. No, you and the grand puba have to figure out a way to shut down America without causing all kinds of problems like the Chinese regime can do today. We have a pesky little bug that can make people who wear masks just as sick as the ones who aren't wearing masks.

... and you are going to trust your life as a passenger in a car to a seat belt? A seat-belt might not prevent death or serious injury, but it can reduce the chance of either. See also a condom in the AIDS epidemic. That mask makes going out in public less likely to result in contracting the virus and should you have the virus and not know it, less likely to transmit it. 

Until a certain level of the public gets inoculated for COVID-19 (I'm guessing 90%) we will still need to mask ourselves... even if we were inoculated, just to be certain.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - Classic-Xer - 01-25-2021

(01-25-2021, 04:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 10:59 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-23-2021, 02:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The COVID-19 pandemic is 'unnatural' in that such a pandemic supposedly does not fester in an advanced industrial society with a sophisticated political system -- until it does...

I don't agree. What made COVID so devastating in both the UK and the US was the unwillingness or incapability of the citizenry to comply with health restrictions, coupled with faux-frugality that meant it was impossible for most people (read: not well educated and/or well-to-do) to follow the strict rules.  Sorry, but
both are features not bugs.

We're in the middle of a global pandemic and if you think wearing a flimsy mask is going to prevent you or a loved one from getting it or bringing it home then you're being foolish. I don't know anyone who didn't get it while wearing a mask in public. No, you and the grand puba have to figure out a way to shut down America without causing all kinds of problems like the Chinese regime can do today. We have a pesky little bug that can make people who wear masks just as sick as the ones who aren't wearing masks.

... and you are going to trust your life as a passenger in a car to a seat belt? A seat-belt might not prevent death or serious injury, but it can reduce the chance of either. See also a condom in the AIDS epidemic. That mask makes going out in public less likely to result in contracting the virus and should you have the virus and not know it, less likely to transmit it. 

Until a certain level of the public gets inoculated for COVID-19 (I'm guessing 90%) we will still need to mask ourselves... even if we were inoculated, just to be certain.
So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - Bob Butler 54 - 01-25-2021

(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - Classic-Xer - 01-25-2021

(01-25-2021, 03:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 02:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 01:02 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

The world's leading authorities on infectious diseases determined that COVID19 may be a novel virus, it's not a manufactured one.  What authority does FOX call on for it's baseless claim?

The chance of a bat from this part of the world and a bat from that part of the world coming in contact with each other then coming in contact with another animal of some sort (undetermined by science at the moment) before coming into contact with a human and then spreading world wide is what? One in a billion chance? There's a group of scientists who know that the virus was made by man in a laboratory in Wuhan, China. So, where did you get your information? China or a group of leading authorities who are in business with China?

The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale.  Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.
Where are you getting your outdated information or haven't you took the time to update information yet? Are you still getting it directly from China? A group of government officials who are in cahoots with China? The scientists who are the ones tracing it/ investigating it already know that it was a scientific project associated with a laboratory in Wuhan, China that went awry and spread from there. The virus is a combination of two bat virus associated with two different species of bats from different regions and an infected test animal of some sort that infected a laboratory worker and possibly some coworkers who unknowingly spread it to the public from there.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - Classic-Xer - 01-25-2021

(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.
Who? What authority determines if one has essential worker status or not? I assume everyone has the right to earn a living and pay for whatever they need right? I know that you are on the elitist side but don't forget that not everyone is content with living off the dole and surviving off whatever morsels the government is able to provide these days.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - Bob Butler 54 - 01-25-2021

(01-25-2021, 07:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.
Who? What authority determines if one has essential worker status or not? I assume everyone has the right to earn a living and pay for whatever they need right? I know that you are on the elitist side but don't forget that not everyone is content with living off the dole and surviving off whatever morsels the government is able to provide these days.

One of the few things Trump left the golf course on his resorts for the rich was for was a to pass a big tax break for the rich. Where did you get the idea that I was on the side of the elite? Trump said so? Isn't it a bit late to notice he's the biggest alligator in the swamp?


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - David Horn - 01-26-2021

(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

The long pole here is vaccine.  If J&J comes online soon (one shot, not two), and Novavax follows soon, we should be done in the US before that ... if, not when.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - David Horn - 01-26-2021

(01-25-2021, 07:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 03:21 PM)David Horn Wrote: The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale.  Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.

Where are you getting your outdated information or haven't you took the time to update information yet? Are you still getting it directly from China? A group of government officials who are in cahoots with China? The scientists who are the ones tracing it/ investigating it already know that it was a scientific project associated with a laboratory in Wuhan, China that went awry and spread from there. The virus is a combination of two bat virus associated with two different species of bats from different regions and an infected test animal of some sort that infected a laboratory worker and possibly some coworkers who unknowingly spread it to the public from there.

I did some more investigating, and you're more right than wrong. China, never good at being open and inviting, is hiding somethings. Was the virus manipulated? Perhaps. If so, then the Chinese military may owe the world an abject apology. If that's true, then I'll bet on sloppiness rather than bad intent. If you weaponize something, you don't let it get out of the lab.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - pbrower2a - 01-26-2021

(01-26-2021, 02:03 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 07:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 03:21 PM)David Horn Wrote: The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale.  Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.

Where are you getting your outdated information or haven't you took the time to update information yet? Are you still getting it directly from China? A group of government officials who are in cahoots with China? The scientists who are the ones tracing it/ investigating it already know that it was a scientific project associated with a laboratory in Wuhan, China that went awry and spread from there. The virus is a combination of two bat virus associated with two different species of bats from different regions and an infected test animal of some sort that infected a laboratory worker and possibly some coworkers who unknowingly spread it to the public from there.

I did some more investigating, and you're more right than wrong.  China, never good at being open and inviting, is hiding somethings. Was the virus manipulated?  Perhaps. If so, then the Chinese military may owe the world an abject apology.  If that's true, then I'll bet on sloppiness rather than bad intent.  If you weaponize something, you don't let it get out of the lab.

Yes, indeed: if you have bats infected with COVID-19 you kill them and destroy them as completely as possible, incinerating the dead bats along with the SARS-2 virus. Unknown viruses should always be treated as supremely dangerous until proved otherwise. There is usually no medical treatment for an infectious virus except for fortifying the immune system and dealing with the symptoms until the infection and the symptoms are no more.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - mamabug - 01-27-2021

(01-26-2021, 02:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: I did some more investigating, and you're more right than wrong.  China, never good at being open and inviting, is hiding somethings. Was the virus manipulated?  Perhaps. If so, then the Chinese military may owe the world an abject apology.  If that's true, then I'll bet on sloppiness rather than bad intent.  If you weaponize something, you don't let it get out of the lab.

Occam's razor since this started has suggested an accidental leak.  It's unclear whether it was a leak of a manipulated strain or a natural one, but manipulated doesn't mean weaponized.  There are numerous good reasons to alter a virus for study.

Since the start, China's behavior has only made sense if it was an accidental leak.  They imprisoned (and disappeared) doctors, nurses, journalists, lawyers, etc. who were trying to get word out to the world in November of a new virus and instructed overseas nationals to buy up PPE and ship it home before they began admitting anything might be going on.  It is exactly how you might expect an authoritarian regime that hates criticism would respond if they both knew something was going on AND knew it was a government agency's fault.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - David Horn - 01-27-2021

(01-27-2021, 05:15 PM)mamabug Wrote:
(01-26-2021, 02:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: I did some more investigating, and you're more right than wrong.  China, never good at being open and inviting, is hiding somethings. Was the virus manipulated?  Perhaps. If so, then the Chinese military may owe the world an abject apology.  If that's true, then I'll bet on sloppiness rather than bad intent.  If you weaponize something, you don't let it get out of the lab.

Occam's razor since this started has suggested an accidental leak.  It's unclear whether it was a leak of a manipulated strain or a natural one, but manipulated doesn't mean weaponized.  There are numerous good reasons to alter a virus for study.

Since the start, China's behavior has only made sense if it was an accidental leak.  They imprisoned (and disappeared) doctors, nurses, journalists, lawyers, etc. who were trying to get word out to the world in November of a new virus and instructed overseas nationals to buy up PPE and ship it home before they began admitting anything might be going on.  It is exactly how you might expect an authoritarian regime that hates criticism would respond if they both knew something was going on AND knew it was a government agency's fault.

Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - mamabug - 01-27-2021

(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.  '

There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp.  Rolleyes


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - David Horn - 01-28-2021

(01-27-2021, 06:16 PM)mamabug Wrote:
(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.

Wuhan never got that deep, and China, as a whole, is still way behind us. Even more to the point, both Australia and New Zealand managed to stop COVID in its tracks. South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan were also successful. It's not pretty, but it can be done -- assuming a willing citizenry. Those Asian nations had to deal with SARS, and learned from the experience.

mamabug Wrote:There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

We already know. It's not 'knowing' that's the problem. It's the 'doing'.

mamabug Wrote:Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp.  Rolleyes

If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - mamabug - 01-28-2021

(01-28-2021, 06:03 AM)David Horn Wrote: If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.

This, right here, is why nobody in this country can have a reasonable conversation.  

This year has convinced me that my optimism about humanity is completely misplaced.  99% truly are sheep who just want an easy slogan to bleat that makes them feel safe as well as morally superior, because thinking about complex issues and weighing differing risks is *hard*.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - Classic-Xer - 01-28-2021

(01-28-2021, 06:03 AM)David Horn Wrote: If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.
Yep. If the Democrats are going to risk everything for a short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of certain death or physical injury, violence that's widely known to be directed at them or widely known and viewed as a result of something stupid that they've done as a group and the fear of facing all out war and massive loses will stop them from being stupid either. In short, the can't hold back America or hide the truth forever and its going to take more than a 4 Trillion dollar industry and some Covid deaths and a media mob to keep America muzzled and contained. You seen what American ingenuity can do when America has a problem that Washington DC and the bureaucratic clowns with permanent permanent paychecks and petty/ insecure politicians who don't know where to stand running it can't seem to fix or figure out these days.

Dave, are we talking about a lethal virus that kills most people it infects which would/should only warrant such a response these days or not? I don't know what your problem is or what you want America to become or do to please you or make you feel safe or which or what  agenda that you support because you're all over the place and contradicting yourself or going along with stuff that you claim that you don't support or want as it's going on.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - pbrower2a - 01-28-2021

(01-28-2021, 01:11 PM)mamabug Wrote:
(01-28-2021, 06:03 AM)David Horn Wrote: If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.

This, right here, is why nobody in this country can have a reasonable conversation.  

This year has convinced me that my optimism about humanity is completely misplaced.  99% truly are sheep who just want an easy slogan to bleat that makes them feel safe as well as morally superior, because thinking about complex issues and weighing differing risks is *hard*.

I had a horrible nightmare last night... mercifully I woke up. It was much like 1984 except that the social order was overtly plutocratic, and the system worked by ensuring that there was nothing on which the common man could spend his money except on vice, and that was fully commercialized and monopolized. People survive only so long as they are useful to the system, after which time they die of heatstroke, cold, or hunger... or are killed in particularly nasty ways (think of Roman circuses) if they turn to crime -- including political dissent as well as robbery-murder. Supposedly Akirema  is libertarian, but the social stratification is so rigid and severe that freedom is a commonly-used word that means little (except as sybaritic indulgence for elites). 

Heroin, meth, and pornography (including child porn) are readily available, but classical music, high-quality art, academic inquiry, slapstick comedy, and witty or piercing drama are as illicit in Akrema as are heroin, meth, and child porn in our world. (For someone with an IQ in the 120's or higher, that would be Hell!) Beauty contests are commonplace as entertainment, but 'winners' get introduced into 'high-class' prostitution. Newspeak is the norm, but there is enough more linguistic fraud that one can innovate without touching Orwell's language -- or that of the polished experts in Hitlerland and Stalinland. Poverty is plenty, stupidity is wisdom, and thought is crime... I think those are adequate spoofs of "War is peace, freedom is slavery, and Ignorance is strength" from 1984. Things are made, but but even the gadgets have limited lifespans as they are all intended to die for lack of some critical 'support' or simply 'expire' in due time so that people have to buy new and with a hefty price tag attached. Your computer makes it easy to play on-line slots or do sports betting, the dumbest of gambling possible. Or you can bet on the stock market (buying options but not stocks) to day-trade in a crooked casino in which insider trading and pump-and-dump scams are the norm instead of ways to go to prison in America or a death chamber in China. There are plenty of ways to die young... and nobody really cares.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - Bob Butler 54 - 01-28-2021

(01-28-2021, 06:03 AM)David Horn Wrote: If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.

If you manage to find a way to stop people from being stupid, make sure you get the copyright. Cool


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - pbrower2a - 01-28-2021

(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

At that rate about every young adult would be competing for a job as an 'essential worker' for that privilege.


RE: The Maelstrom of Violence - pbrower2a - 01-28-2021

(01-25-2021, 07:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 03:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 02:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-25-2021, 01:02 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

The world's leading authorities on infectious diseases determined that COVID19 may be a novel virus, it's not a manufactured one.  What authority does FOX call on for it's baseless claim?

The chance of a bat from this part of the world and a bat from that part of the world coming in contact with each other then coming in contact with another animal of some sort (undetermined by science at the moment) before coming into contact with a human and then spreading world wide is what? One in a billion chance? There's a group of scientists who know that the virus was made by man in a laboratory in Wuhan, China. So, where did you get your information? China or a group of leading authorities who are in business with China?

The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale.  Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.

Where are you getting your outdated information or haven't you took the time to update information yet? Are you still getting it directly from China? A group of government officials who are in cahoots with China? The scientists who are the ones tracing it/ investigating it already know that it was a scientific project associated with a laboratory in Wuhan, China that went awry and spread from there. The virus is a combination of two bat virus associated with two different species of bats from different regions and an infected test animal of some sort that infected a laboratory worker and possibly some coworkers who unknowingly spread it to the public from there.

Anyone who still trusts official Chinese news sources on anything involving China without fact-checking is as much a fool as someone who trusts Russian sources on anything. I am harsher on Russia on that because the Russians are far closer to us in culture and have more cultural connections to America (one particular ethnic group that has more to fear in Russia than in America, and if in America and having connections to similar people in Russia still have much to fear on behalf of their loved ones in Russia). I wouldn't trust anything from RT unless it were strictly a cultural program. Swan Lake and Dmitri Shostakovich's Quintet for piano and strings are hard to put propaganda into. 

In case anyone thinks that a news source is reliable because it is hostile to the PRC, then think again: 

EPOCH TIMES

[Image: right061.png?w=600&ssl=1]

[Image: MBFCMixed.png?w=355&ssl=1]

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE
A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for the purpose of profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact checked on a per article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.

  • Overall, we rate The Epoch Times Right Biased and Questionable based on the publication of pseudoscience and the promotion of propaganda and conspiracy theories as well as numerous failed fact checks.



  • [b]History
    [/b]

    The Epoch Times is an international, multi-language news media company in print and online. The Epoch Times first published in New York in April 2000 (in Chinese only) and the online edition in August 2000. In 2003, The Epoch Times launched an online edition in English, which began printing as a newspaper in New York in 2004.  The Epoch Times is founded by John Tang and a group of Chinese-American Falun Gong practitioners. The Epoch Times publishes in 21 languages in 35 countries across five continents. Their focus topics include sections for world and national news, op-eds, sports, entertainment, business, arts and culture, travel, and health.
    On December 20, 2019, it was reported that Facebook took down more than 600 accounts connected to The Epoch Times. According to an NBC News report “The network was called ‘The BL’ and was run by Vietnamese users posing as Americans, using fake photos generated by algorithms to simulate real identities. The Epoch Media group, which pushes a variety of pro-Trump conspiracy theories, spent $9.5 million on ads to spread content through the now-suspended pages and groups.”
Editorially, there is a very strong Pro-Trump bias, with almost all articles praising Trump and denigrating the left such as these Democratic Party: A Broken Kaleidoscope? and Five Reasons Trump’s Celebration of America Was Epic Display of Patriotism. According to an NBC News report the “outlet has spent more than $1.5 million on about 11,000 pro-Trump advertisements in the last six months, according to data from Facebook’s advertising archive — more than any organization outside of the Trump campaign itself, and more than most Democratic presidential candidates have spent on their own campaigns.” In general, straight news reporting is sourced and mostly low biased, however, op-eds 100% favor the right with some promoting conspiracy theories. During the 2020 Coronavirus outbreak and the 2020 Presidential election, they have promoted misinformation. See failed fact checks below.
Failed Fact Checks Further, the Epoch Times has a section called Beyond Science that publishes pseudoscience news, such as Supernormal Abilities Developed Through Meditation: Dr. Dean Radin Discusses. Finally, the above referenced NBC News report states “In addition to claims that alien abductions are real and the drug epidemic was engineered by the “deep state,” the channel pushes the QAnon conspiracy theory, which falsely posits that the same “Spygate” cabal is a front for a global pedophile ring being taken down by Trump.”
Overall, we rate The Epoch Times Right Biased and Questionable based on the publication of pseudoscience and the promotion of propaganda and conspiracy theories as well as numerous failed fact checks. (M. Huitsing 8/21/2017) (Updated 11/13/2020)
Source: https://www.theepochtimes.com

Personal comment:

To be sure, this site is harshly critical of anything sympathetic to the personality cult surrounding Donald Trump... but anyone who still believes him and takes his claim that he can "Make America Great Again" at face value is a fool. That's harsh judgment on my part, and I have gotten a thick rap sheet for self-righteousness. At least I confess. Is it wise to swim in a sewer?  I would not accept any new story from a source considered "mixed" (and that is even worse than "very low" because the source itself discredits its story, as with InfoWars or the Palmer Report.