ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma

[Classic-Xer]

(01-20-2017, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 03:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 12:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: If what you claim about yourself is true, then I will not see further posts from you that suggest a link between liberal welfare policies/your taxes and poor people of color. When I don't see that from you, then I will know that the racist dog-whistle does not get a response in you.

That doesn't mean it does not get a response in many other "conservatives." (if not in all)

Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people you are siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

That's my opinion and my prediction. Your opinion is your right. I'm quite happy for you to post it here.

A link exists between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color. I cannot deny and exclude the poor people of color from the group to appease you in order to stop your use of racism and its use by others associated with you against me. So, continue the crap you are doing but do so with the understanding that I know what you're doing and I'm going to counter it in a way that begins to turn people against you here. I've done it before and I can do it again. Hint: The hardcore Democratic barrier that once existed no longer exists between us. I eliminated it by revealing the truth to them and changing their views (the way they looked) at people like you.

Good luck with that. I can't speak for others. But by admitting that you cannot deny the link "between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color," you confirm your own racism, and others and well as myself will use it against you and "others associated with you" effectively.

If you choose, you and others can embrace instead a better balance between the virtues of self-reliance and the virtues of interdependence and civic responsibility, and not respond to racist dog-whistle delusions. If you deny the link between "poor people of color" and "liberal welfare policies and my taxes," then you are not vulnerable to charges of racism. It's up to you.

Do you deny that there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people of all colors? How are my taxes being excluded from supporting them? I assume you would agree that local/state/federal taxes are all required to fund liberal programs. I hope you're not stupid enough to think/believe that I'm not a US taxpayer, a Minnesota taxpayer, a local taxpayer, a past employee who paid taxes or a current business owner who pays in more taxes than he did as an employee. Calling me a liar to my face would not be good for you do in a real life verbal exchange or an internet exchange with you here for that matter. What's the virtue involved with someone being allowed to leach off of someone else? Let me guess, one of your own virtues that you'd normally assume that I'd be to stupid/ financially complacent enough to accept. I'm learning more about you every time you open your mouth. Well, if you choose to call us racists and associate me with racism and I'm going to counter you with the use of gold digger/free loader or something even nastier which means the same that is more truthful, directly applicable that will stick to all of you quite well. It's up to you.

[Eric the Green]

(01-20-2017, 06:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 03:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 12:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: If what you claim about yourself is true, then I will not see further posts from you that suggest a link between liberal welfare policies/your taxes and poor people of color. When I don't see that from you, then I will know that the racist dog-whistle does not get a response in you.

That doesn't mean it does not get a response in many other "conservatives." (if not in all)

Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people you are siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

That's my opinion and my prediction. Your opinion is your right. I'm quite happy for you to post it here.

A link exists between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color. I cannot deny and exclude the poor people of color from the group to appease you in order to stop your use of racism and its use by others associated with you against me. So, continue the crap you are doing but do so with the understanding that I know what you're doing and I'm going to counter it in a way that begins to turn people against you here. I've done it before and I can do it again. Hint: The hardcore Democratic barrier that once existed no longer exists between us. I eliminated it by revealing the truth to them and changing their views (the way they looked) at people like you.

Good luck with that. I can't speak for others. But by admitting that you cannot deny the link "between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color," you confirm your own racism, and others and well as myself will use it against you and "others associated with you" effectively.

If you choose, you and others can embrace instead a better balance between the virtues of self-reliance and the virtues of interdependence and civic responsibility, and not respond to racist dog-whistle delusions. If you deny the link between "poor people of color" and "liberal welfare policies and my taxes," then you are not vulnerable to charges of racism. It's up to you.

Do you deny that there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people of all colors? How are my taxes being excluded from supporting them? I assume you would agree that local/state/federal taxes are all required to fund liberal programs. I hope you're not stupid enough to think/believe that I'm not a US taxpayer, a Minnesota taxpayer, a local taxpayer, a past employee who paid taxes or a current business owner who pays in more taxes than he did as an employee. Calling me a liar to my face would not be good for you do in a real life verbal exchange or an internet exchange with you here for that matter. What's the virtue involved with someone being allowed to leach off of someone else? Let me guess, one of your own virtues that you'd normally assume that I'd be too stupid/ financially complacent enough to accept. I'm learning more about you every time you open your mouth. Well, if you choose to call us racists and associate me with racism and I'm going to counter you with the use of gold digger/free loader or something even nastier which means the same that is more truthful, directly applicable that will stick to all of you quite well. It's up to you.

If you say poor people of ALL colors, that's OK; yes the poor come in all colors. If you say "there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people OF color," that's the racist dog whistle. Opposing welfare for racist reasons is opposing "sending my tax money which the government steals from me to give to lazy blacks and hispanics."

I don't get why you bring up that you pay taxes. That's just a smokescreen to avoid the issue. The issue is you don't want to pay taxes for liberal social programs. That's where I disagree.

It's not leeching; it's social insurance. If you knew history, you might understand why that was an advancement on earlier conditions.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-20-2017, 08:33 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 06:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 03:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 12:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: If what you claim about yourself is true, then I will not see further posts from you that suggest a link between liberal welfare policies/your taxes and poor people of color. When I don't see that from you, then I will know that the racist dog-whistle does not get a response in you.

That doesn't mean it does not get a response in many other "conservatives." (if not in all)

Meanwhile, the divide has come from the right-wing. I watched PBS Frontline's "Divided States of America" last night, and was reminded of the tactics and angry fanaticism of the people you are siding with, and what they have done over the last decades and especially during Obama's term to force their will on us and shut down the government. I think the divide is pretty well baked in now until one side wins and a consensus is thereby achieved. It may not be a full consensus, but at least the nation will move on. If it moves in a progressive way, the nation will prosper. If it moves in the direction you have supported, it will not. As to who will win, sure your side is winning now. But the nation remains evenly divided, and the winner goes back and forth. You may be disappointed if you think the contest is over.

That's my opinion and my prediction. Your opinion is your right. I'm quite happy for you to post it here.

A link exists between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color. I cannot deny and exclude the poor people of color from the group to appease you in order to stop your use of racism and its use by others associated with you against me. So, continue the crap you are doing but do so with the understanding that I know what you're doing and I'm going to counter it in a way that begins to turn people against you here. I've done it before and I can do it again. Hint: The hardcore Democratic barrier that once existed no longer exists between us. I eliminated it by revealing the truth to them and changing their views (the way they looked) at people like you.

Good luck with that. I can't speak for others. But by admitting that you cannot deny the link "between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color," you confirm your own racism, and others and well as myself will use it against you and "others associated with you" effectively.

If you choose, you and others can embrace instead a better balance between the virtues of self-reliance and the virtues of interdependence and civic responsibility, and not respond to racist dog-whistle delusions. If you deny the link between "poor people of color" and "liberal welfare policies and my taxes," then you are not vulnerable to charges of racism. It's up to you.

Do you deny that there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people of all colors? How are my taxes being excluded from supporting them? I assume you would agree that local/state/federal taxes are all required to fund liberal programs. I hope you're not stupid enough to think/believe that I'm not a US taxpayer, a Minnesota taxpayer, a local taxpayer, a past employee who paid taxes or a current business owner who pays in more taxes than he did as an employee. Calling me a liar to my face would not be good for you do in a real life verbal exchange or an internet exchange with you here for that matter. What's the virtue involved with someone being allowed to leach off of someone else? Let me guess, one of your own virtues that you'd normally assume that I'd be too stupid/ financially complacent enough to accept. I'm learning more about you every time you open your mouth. Well, if you choose to call us racists and associate me with racism and I'm going to counter you with the use of gold digger/free loader or something even nastier which means the same that is more truthful, directly applicable that will stick to all of you quite well. It's up to you.

If you say poor people of ALL colors, that's OK; yes the poor come in all colors. If you say "there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people OF color," that's the racist dog whistle. Opposing welfare for racist reasons is opposing "sending my tax money which the government steals from me to give to lazy blacks and hispanics."

I don't get why you bring up that you pay taxes. That's just a smokescreen to avoid the issue. The issue is you don't want to pay taxes for liberal social programs. That's where I disagree.

It's not leeching; it's social insurance. If you knew history, you might understand why that was an advancement on earlier conditions.

Are you able to read your own initial demand of me that's clearly stated above? In order for you to withdraw you're use of racism, I'd have to exclude/deny the existence of poor people of color associated with liberal welfare policies which my taxes (your taxes as you stated to me above) are associated with their support at all levels. I can't do that for you *to appease you* for my own sake *spare myself from you use of racist and your association of me with racism* because that would be dishonest of me to do so. So, we have a problem now don't we. You see, I know that I'm a taxpayer who has contributed taxes to all levels for many years. I bring it up to see your response. So far, you've been failing miserably as far as your responses and possibilities of receiving further support. Social insurance for what, preventing a riot or revolt or a race war? Extortion isn't a virtue of mine or a value of mine either. So, we have another problem now don't we. I know modern history pretty well *better than most*. You actually run into my knowledge of modern history quite a bit.

[Eric the Green]

(01-20-2017, 11:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 08:33 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 06:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 03:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: A link exists between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color. I cannot deny and exclude the poor people of color from the group to appease you in order to stop your use of racism and its use by others associated with you against me. So, continue the crap you are doing but do so with the understanding that I know what you're doing and I'm going to counter it in a way that begins to turn people against you here. I've done it before and I can do it again. Hint: The hardcore Democratic barrier that once existed no longer exists between us. I eliminated it by revealing the truth to them and changing their views (the way they looked) at people like you.

Good luck with that. I can't speak for others. But by admitting that you cannot deny the link "between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color," you confirm your own racism, and others and well as myself will use it against you and "others associated with you" effectively.

If you choose, you and others can embrace instead a better balance between the virtues of self-reliance and the virtues of interdependence and civic responsibility, and not respond to racist dog-whistle delusions. If you deny the link between "poor people of color" and "liberal welfare policies and my taxes," then you are not vulnerable to charges of racism. It's up to you.

Do you deny that there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people of all colors? How are my taxes being excluded from supporting them? I assume you would agree that local/state/federal taxes are all required to fund liberal programs. I hope you're not stupid enough to think/believe that I'm not a US taxpayer, a Minnesota taxpayer, a local taxpayer, a past employee who paid taxes or a current business owner who pays in more taxes than he did as an employee. Calling me a liar to my face would not be good for you do in a real life verbal exchange or an internet exchange with you here for that matter. What's the virtue involved with someone being allowed to leach off of someone else? Let me guess, one of your own virtues that you'd normally assume that I'd be too stupid/ financially complacent enough to accept. I'm learning more about you every time you open your mouth. Well, if you choose to call us racists and associate me with racism and I'm going to counter you with the use of gold digger/free loader or something even nastier which means the same that is more truthful, directly applicable that will stick to all of you quite well. It's up to you.

If you say poor people of ALL colors, that's OK; yes the poor come in all colors. If you say "there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people OF color," that's the racist dog whistle. Opposing welfare for racist reasons is opposing "sending my tax money which the government steals from me to give to lazy blacks and hispanics."

I don't get why you bring up that you pay taxes. That's just a smokescreen to avoid the issue. The issue is you don't want to pay taxes for liberal social programs. That's where I disagree.

It's not leeching; it's social insurance. If you knew history, you might understand why that was an advancement on earlier conditions.

Are you able to read your own initial demand of me that's clearly stated above? In order for you to withdraw you're use of racism, I'd have to exclude/deny the existence of poor people of color associated with liberal welfare policies which my taxes (your taxes as you stated to me above) are associated with their support at all levels. I can't do that for you *to appease you* for my own sake *spare myself from you use of racist and your association of me with racism* because that would be dishonest of me to do so. So, we have a problem now don't we. You see, I know that I'm a taxpayer who has contributed taxes to all levels for many years. I bring it up to see your response. So far, you've been failing miserably as far as your responses and possibilities of receiving further support. Social insurance for what, preventing a riot or revolt or a race war? Extortion isn't a virtue of mine or a value of mine either. So, we have another problem now don't we. I know modern history pretty well *better than most*. You actually run into my knowledge of modern history quite a bit.

I don't see that; your fellow traveler Mr. Glick, stubborn and wrong as he is, has been more challenging in that regard than you are. I don't see much of history from you. If you knew history, you would know how bad conditions were before we had the Progressive Movement, New Deal and Great Society.

It seems to me that you "honestly" admit your racism, but don't like the label. But if the shoe fits, why not wear it? Calling taxes for social services "extortion" is just typical libertarian economics slogans that you have fallen for. You are hypnotized by them, and perhaps someday you'll wake up. As of now, I wouldn't bet on it. You pay your taxes, I credit you, but you oppose doing so, don't you, if they go for social services to poor people of color? Which some of them do since you live in a blue state?

[David Horn]

(01-20-2017, 04:45 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 03:51 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: It's not the insurance companies who profit from illness it's a subset of the care providers. The insurance companies want you to pay your premiums but make no claims. That's why they make it so painful to have actual claims and why they deny or reduce claims. Meanwhile, certain providers (especially ones that don't take Medicare and who are very selective about which insurance plans they accept) rake it in. Now to be fair, I know some providers who do take Medicare and are being short paid by insurance - they are not exactly raking it in.

I agree with respect to the care providers, and I agree that's how it used to work - and should work - with insurance companies.  However, Obamacare limited insurance company profits to a percentage of medical payouts, giving the insurance companies an incentive to increase overall costs as well.

If costs had risen faster than they had in the past, you might have a point.  They didn't.  In fact, the rate of increase slowed dramatically -- and I say that as someone not well disposed to the ACA.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-21-2017, 01:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 11:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 08:33 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 06:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Good luck with that. I can't speak for others. But by admitting that you cannot deny the link "between liberal welfare policies, my taxes and the poor people of all color," you confirm your own racism, and others and well as myself will use it against you and "others associated with you" effectively.

If you choose, you and others can embrace instead a better balance between the virtues of self-reliance and the virtues of interdependence and civic responsibility, and not respond to racist dog-whistle delusions. If you deny the link between "poor people of color" and "liberal welfare policies and my taxes," then you are not vulnerable to charges of racism. It's up to you.

Do you deny that there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people of all colors? How are my taxes being excluded from supporting them? I assume you would agree that local/state/federal taxes are all required to fund liberal programs. I hope you're not stupid enough to think/believe that I'm not a US taxpayer, a Minnesota taxpayer, a local taxpayer, a past employee who paid taxes or a current business owner who pays in more taxes than he did as an employee. Calling me a liar to my face would not be good for you do in a real life verbal exchange or an internet exchange with you here for that matter. What's the virtue involved with someone being allowed to leach off of someone else? Let me guess, one of your own virtues that you'd normally assume that I'd be too stupid/ financially complacent enough to accept. I'm learning more about you every time you open your mouth. Well, if you choose to call us racists and associate me with racism and I'm going to counter you with the use of gold digger/free loader or something even nastier which means the same that is more truthful, directly applicable that will stick to all of you quite well. It's up to you.

If you say poor people of ALL colors, that's OK; yes the poor come in all colors. If you say "there is a link between your liberal social programs, my taxes and the poor people OF color," that's the racist dog whistle. Opposing welfare for racist reasons is opposing "sending my tax money which the government steals from me to give to lazy blacks and hispanics."

I don't get why you bring up that you pay taxes. That's just a smokescreen to avoid the issue. The issue is you don't want to pay taxes for liberal social programs. That's where I disagree.

It's not leeching; it's social insurance. If you knew history, you might understand why that was an advancement on earlier conditions.

Are you able to read your own initial demand of me that's clearly stated above? In order for you to withdraw you're use of racism, I'd have to exclude/deny the existence of poor people of color associated with liberal welfare policies which my taxes (your taxes as you stated to me above) are associated with their support at all levels. I can't do that for you *to appease you* for my own sake *spare myself from you use of racist and your association of me with racism* because that would be dishonest of me to do so. So, we have a problem now don't we. You see, I know that I'm a taxpayer who has contributed taxes to all levels for many years. I bring it up to see your response. So far, you've been failing miserably as far as your responses and possibilities of receiving further support. Social insurance for what, preventing a riot or revolt or a race war? Extortion isn't a virtue of mine or a value of mine either. So, we have another problem now don't we. I know modern history pretty well *better than most*. You actually run into my knowledge of modern history quite a bit.

I don't see that; your fellow traveler Mr. Glick, stubborn and wrong as he is, has been more challenging in that regard than you are. I don't see much of history from you. If you knew history, you would know how bad conditions were before we had the Progressive Movement, New Deal and Great Society.

It seems to me that you "honestly" admit your racism, but don't like the label. But if the shoe fits, why not wear it? Calling taxes for social services "extortion" is just typical libertarian economics slogans that you have fallen for. You are hypnotized by them, and perhaps someday you'll wake up. As of now, I wouldn't bet on it. You pay your taxes, I credit you, but you oppose doing so, don't you, if they go for social services to poor people of color? Which some of them do since you live in a blue state?

If I was racist, I would accept the label. If the shoe doesn't fit, why wear it? I don't use history like others. I use my knowledge of history as a guide. I associate your basic ideology and beliefs and propaganda and obvious expressions of hatred with other groups associated with our historical past. I oppose paying taxes that indirectly support/fund progressives like you. Plus, I'm not a believer in the welfare system itself.

[Eric the Green]

(01-21-2017, 05:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I associate your basic ideology and beliefs and propaganda and obvious expressions of hatred with other groups associated with our historical past. 

I'm proud to consider myself part of the progressive tradition. It is most of what made our country great, to the extent that it is.

[Warren Dew]

(01-21-2017, 12:45 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 04:45 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-20-2017, 03:51 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: It's not the insurance companies who profit from illness it's a subset of the care providers. The insurance companies want you to pay your premiums but make no claims. That's why they make it so painful to have actual claims and why they deny or reduce claims. Meanwhile, certain providers (especially ones that don't take Medicare and who are very selective about which insurance plans they accept) rake it in. Now to be fair, I know some providers who do take Medicare and are being short paid by insurance - they are not exactly raking it in.

I agree with respect to the care providers, and I agree that's how it used to work - and should work - with insurance companies.  However, Obamacare limited insurance company profits to a percentage of medical payouts, giving the insurance companies an incentive to increase overall costs as well.

If costs had risen faster than they had in the past, you might have a point.  They didn't.  In fact, the rate of increase slowed dramatically -- and I say that as someone not well disposed to the ACA.

It's arguable whether the rate increases slowed.  It's pretty clear that when  you include skyrocketing deductibles and not just premiums, health care costs are rising as fast as ever for most people.

And your claim to being "not well disposed" to Obamacare is questionable since there's every indication you prefer it to what came before.

[Warren Dew]

(01-21-2017, 05:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If I was racist, I would accept the label. If the shoe doesn't fit, why wear it? I don't use history like others. I use my knowledge of history as a guide. I associate your basic ideology and beliefs and propaganda and obvious expressions of hatred with other groups associated with our historical past. I oppose paying taxes that indirectly support/fund progressives like you. Plus,  I'm not a believer in the welfare system itself.

When someone as far left as Eric calls  you racist, he just means he has run out of rational points and has lost the argument.

[Eric the Green]

(01-21-2017, 09:35 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-21-2017, 05:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If I was racist, I would accept the label. If the shoe doesn't fit, why wear it? I don't use history like others. I use my knowledge of history as a guide. I associate your basic ideology and beliefs and propaganda and obvious expressions of hatred with other groups associated with our historical past. I oppose paying taxes that indirectly support/fund progressives like you. Plus,  I'm not a believer in the welfare system itself.

When someone as far left as Eric calls  you racist, he just means he has run out of rational points and has lost the argument.

Well, I hope Mr. Classic is relieved by your assurance.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-21-2017, 09:35 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-21-2017, 05:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If I was racist, I would accept the label. If the shoe doesn't fit, why wear it? I don't use history like others. I use my knowledge of history as a guide. I associate your basic ideology and beliefs and propaganda and obvious expressions of hatred with other groups associated with our historical past. I oppose paying taxes that indirectly support/fund progressives like you. Plus,  I'm not a believer in the welfare system itself.

When someone as far left as Eric calls  you racist, he just means he has run out of rational points and has lost the argument.

I think he actually believes it (he's a believer) myself.

[Eric the Green]

You quite clearly demonstrated it. It's up to you to correct it.

Conservatives are good at denial. Look at how many deny anthrogenetic climate change.

[Galen]

(01-22-2017, 01:45 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You quite clearly demonstrated it. It's up to you to correct it.

Conservatives are good at denial. Look at how many deny anthrogenetic climate change.

I believe the word you are looking for is anthropogenic.  It would probably be a good idea to learn how to spell those big words before you use them.  It might help you in the quest to look less like a complete fool.  On the other hand, given the crystal clear anti-logic you routinely use it may not be possible to look like anything other than a complete idiot.

When a lefty calls you some word ending in 'ist' you can pretty much bet they have no argument.

[Ragnarök_62]

Warren Dew Wrote:It's arguable whether the rate increases slowed.  It's pretty clear that when  you include skyrocketing deductibles and not just premiums, health care costs are rising as fast as ever for most people.

Again... Why the hell do we even need useless middlemen , health care INSURANCE companies?  Let's just drop the eligibility age of Medicare to 0 from 65. Just juse a VAT tax to fund it.  The payroll tax for Medicare would go away along with all of those health insurance premiums.  It's just stupid to tie health care to employment.

Quote:And your claim to being "not well  disposed" to Obamacare is questionable since there's every indication you prefer it to what came before.

As a matter of fact, yes.  Obamacare at least had taxes on some health insurance plans.

I'd also want everyone to have the exact same health plan.  Congress, public employees, VA folks, bureaucrats, etc.
No more favorites, man.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-22-2017, 01:45 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You quite clearly demonstrated it. It's up to you to correct it.

Conservatives are good at denial. Look at how many deny anthrogenetic climate change.

I corrected it for the record so others can read, follow our exchanges and decide for themselves. As far as correcting it for you, it doesn't seem like it's going to matter to you anyway. I don't take kindly to those who insult others by using the term racist to describe them or their feelings. I've spent years ignoring insults and cutting through baseless insults coming from progressives who aren't around here anymore. I still have one of them left. Any guess who it is? Bob's smart, Bob knows who is left here and Bob knows who is most likely going to win the battle of male ego's/personalities here. Bob used me to send you a message about his view of extreme partisans here. Did you get his message about his rejection of extreme partisans that's are often associated with him? Well, you're basically on your own with some support from people like Odin if they're foolish enough to join in.

[Warren Dew]

(01-22-2017, 04:53 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

Warren Dew Wrote:It's arguable whether the rate increases slowed.  It's pretty clear that when  you include skyrocketing deductibles and not just premiums, health care costs are rising as fast as ever for most people.

Again... Why the hell do we even need useless middlemen , health care INSURANCE companies?  Let's just drop the eligibility age of Medicare to 0 from 65. Just juse a VAT tax to fund it.  The payroll tax for Medicare would go away along with all of those health insurance premiums.  It's just stupid to tie health care to employment.

The reason it's stupid to tie health care to employment is because then the incentives are misaligned between the payer - the employer - and the patient, resulting in inefficient allocation of resources.  That problem applies in spades when you tie health care to the government.

What's needed is for people to pay for their own health care, whether it's directly or through an insurer.  If you really want to subsidize it, give everyone a voucher or a universal basic subsidy.

[Eric the Green]

(01-22-2017, 05:44 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-22-2017, 01:45 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You quite clearly demonstrated it. It's up to you to correct it.

Conservatives are good at denial. Look at how many deny anthrogenetic climate change.

I corrected it for the record so others can read, follow our exchanges and decide for themselves. As far as correcting it for you, it doesn't seem like it's going to matter to you anyway. I don't take kindly to those who insult others by using the term racist to describe them or their feelings. I've spent years ignoring insults and cutting through baseless insults coming from progressives who aren't around here anymore. I still have one of them left. Any guess who it is?  Bob's smart, Bob knows who is left here and Bob knows who is most likely going to win the battle of male ego's/personalities here. Bob used me to send you a message about his view of extreme partisans here. Did you get his message about his rejection of extreme partisans that's are often associated with him? Well, you're basically on your own with some support from people like Odin if they're foolish enough to join in.

Bob is no more qualified than you to judge me or label me. Everyone is free to say what they please about me, or not. I don't think you corrected your view; others can judge for themselves. If you are against welfare and social programs because they steal your tax money to help poor people of color, then that's racist. If you are against welfare and social programs because they steal your tax money to help poor people period, then I still disagree, but I would just call you a libertarian conservative. It's your choice in how you express your views.

[Mikebert]

(01-15-2017, 03:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 01:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 12:28 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-14-2017, 11:03 PM)Odin Wrote:

(01-14-2017, 10:18 AM)flbones too Wrote: I don't understand why politicians are making this health care thing more complicated than it needs to be. Just expand Medicare for everyone. it's not that complicated.

A lot of people already get insurance through their employer and those people don't want to pay the higher taxes needed for a single payer system. It's "I've got mine, fuck you".

I'm not interested in a single payer system. I'm not interested in becoming part a single payer system by being forced to become part of one that favors the less fortunate (lower end tax bracket). I'm content with the healthcare that I  currently have and have had for years. Are you blind? Now, if you and fellow blues want to conjure up some sort of government funded system to provide healthcare for themselves without destroying/severely impacting and sharply increasing the costs/disrupting our healthcare in the process that's fine with me. If the liberal silliness continues, the liberals are going to find themselves stuck in a government system that's supported by the lower income tax bracket. Can you afford to have your taxes substantially increased to Tara's level/my parents level  (1/3 of her income)?

Tell me about all the high-tax refugees coming to America.

Do you know any poor people? Do you realize how expensive medical insurance is for people over 60, when almost all careers are in decline?  When I had private health care insurance the payments were higher than the payments on a Mercedes-Benz. I am taking some chances by not buying such insurance, but buying American health-care insurance is a losing proposition. Poor as I am, death solves my problems -- especially with a reactionary government that considers me vermin for not being rich.

Yes, if Donald Trump knew about me he would probably want me rubbed out for my political beliefs.

I know how much health insurance costs. I'm currently paying for health insurance for my family ( a couple of 50 year old's and a teenager). I assume that I'm paying more for health insurance than a 60 year old. I wish I was just a 60 year old but I'm not just a 60 year old or a twenty something like Odin. Did you know braces cost as much as an ATV today? Did you know the average cost of raising a kid is as much as a house? I knew a lot more poor people while growing up. I don't know as many of them personally today. I had school friends who lived in the poor part of town. My grandmother was poor. My best friend was poor. I had friends who went through divorces and a got a taste of what being poor felt like. I got a taste what it felt like myself after my father died during my young teenage years.

Braces aren't medical care, they're dental care, which is considered a luxury for rich people. Poor folks do without it.  That's part of the reason they have such crooked teeth.  One of the guys I went to high school with such bad teeth it looked like he had two rows of teeth.  He's a college professor now, so I suppose he got them fixed as an adult. One of our former foster kids has two adult children who consider us their grandparents.  Their bio father has no teeth at all as far as I can tell.

[TnT]

Turns out that i've spent nearly 49 years of my life toiling in the medical field.

Given that, it could actually be interesting to have a civil conversation with folks who are relatively conservative about two related topics:

1. Detailed structure for a reasonably good health care delivery system in this country.

2. Detailed proposal for the financing of (1).

A peripheral topic that seems important is detailed discussion of whether, in this day and age, everyone is entitled to the best available health care (excepting of course clearly optional procedures like cosmetic surgery), or if one is only entitled to the healthcare that he/she can pay for. Interestingly, this philosophical question impacts directly on the whole idea of health insurance.

When I've tried this before, what I mostly get from conservative folks is hand-waving and sky pictures on the care provision topic, and pretty much an "I've got mine, you get yours" approach to financing. As Gary Johnson (my Libertarian New Mexico compatriot) says, "The Devil is in the Details."

[Classic-Xer]

(01-22-2017, 11:56 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-22-2017, 05:44 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-22-2017, 01:45 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You quite clearly demonstrated it. It's up to you to correct it.

Conservatives are good at denial. Look at how many deny anthrogenetic climate change.

I corrected it for the record so others can read, follow our exchanges and decide for themselves. As far as correcting it for you, it doesn't seem like it's going to matter to you anyway. I don't take kindly to those who insult others by using the term racist to describe them or their feelings. I've spent years ignoring insults and cutting through baseless insults coming from progressives who aren't around here anymore. I still have one of them left. Any guess who it is?  Bob's smart, Bob knows who is left here and Bob knows who is most likely going to win the battle of male ego's/personalities here. Bob used me to send you a message about his view of extreme partisans here. Did you get his message about his rejection of extreme partisans that's are often associated with him? Well, you're basically on your own with some support from people like Odin if they're foolish enough to join in.

Bob is no more qualified than you to judge me or label me. Everyone is free to say what they please about me, or not. I don't think you corrected your view; others can judge for themselves. If you are against welfare and social programs because they steal your tax money to help poor people of color, then that's racist. If you are against welfare and social programs because they steal your tax money to help poor people period, then I still disagree, but I would just call you a libertarian conservative. It's your choice in how you express your views.

Lets see, you're qualified to judge us and label us as you please but we are not qualified to do the same with you. Did someone/something/some group make you a king/emperor/tyrant or something? What makes you think/believe that you're special that you feel immune to judgement and receiving labels? Man, what an ego that you must have???????? A glorified super ego of some sort. My ego should be shaking in it's boots and freaking out over its greater size.