ACA Repeal/Replace: Progressives Face Moral Dilemma

[Kinser79]

(03-21-2017, 12:52 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: As I see it, the transition from Agricultural Age to Industrial was driven primarily by technology, but the technology also made it possible for the Enlightenment values to take hold.  The technology was going to make industry more important.  The influence of the hereditary military - land owning class had to be minimized.  The new capitalist ruling class used the promise of democracy and human rights as a lever to get the nobility out of power.

Thus, the Whiggish 'arrow of progress' might have been said to come into existence with the Enlightenment and the technology shifts taking place at the same time.  I'd not expect you to find the Whiggish 'arrow of progress' in Agricultural or Hunter Gatherer cultures to speak of.  To me, this is an example of patterns that hold in one wave of civilization not being applicable or relevant in others.

Okay, then we're still mostly on the same page. If one wants to say that in the transition to and since the enlightenment has been a march of technological progress then sure. I would argue that technology is one of the drivers of society, the technological level drives the structure of a society. A agricultural economy based on peasant labor is unlikely to produce a democratic republic for example, unless the demos is limited to free holders and nobles.

Quote:Will the arrow continue to be relevant in the hypothetical Information Age?  Technology hasn't stopped changing, but there is no longer much of a need in much of the world to out autocratic tyrants.  The push for human rights and equality isn't complete either, though it isn't as pressing as it was in the times and places of slaves, dictators and kings.  

Well let us suppose that the prime mover and shaker in the transition from a medieval society to a modern society was the invention of the printing press (I would liken it to today's internet actually--it shook things up in a major way). Following the advent of the printing press came mass distribution of printed materials, books, broadsheets and so forth. The availability of reading material necessitated a large literate class within society--that is to say literacy could no longer be safely contained within the confines of the Church. IE the gate keepers were made redundant.

As such this "arrow of progress" as you've defined it arose out of those conditions, and in an information driven society should accelerate rather than decelerate or disappear.

As for human rights--in the west that battle is won. The reason so many find the SJW types annoying is because they are screaming for special rights for some groups over other groups and in some cases these so-called groups are not actually even groups but merely disturbed individuals.

Quote:The capitalist elite has found a pattern of government that gives them a decent strangle hold on power.

For now. However, I believe that Trump has shown that a different way is possible in the so-called information age. Remember HRC ran ads on TV and had the MSM and Hollyweird behind her and lost, while Daddy had what? 4Chan? Meme Magic?

Suffice it to say the true winners of the election in 2016 were the Kekistanis. (Hey Alphabet that's a remote country somewhere--much more dangerious than the Russians.)

Quote:  Do they need to make promises of democracy and human rights in order to change how Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue work?  As the Industrial Age came in, the capitalists used Enlightenment philosophy to enlist the working classes and fight the nobility, but if the nobility and tyrants are gone, why would the capitalists care about human rights and equality any more?  The Capitalists are now the sole dominant ruling class in much of the world.  They've got a scheme that's working.  I don't expect them to push for further extension of the Enlightenment ideals and values.

I don't expect you to push for the extension of any ideals or values in your time left. My mother is a 54 cohort too. I expect her to be pushing up daisies by the end of the 2030s. For the record she doesn't drink, smoke or imbibe in other party favors and has somehow managed to not develop diabetes. As an Xer I have little time for ideals or values--getting for me and mine take priority. Millies won't take them up unless they are something they can build on--but it appears the foundations of the current structure (the Enlightenment) are rotten.

I expect Z to come in and start the questioning of all the ideologies of the current order in a short time and then once the oldest neo-prophets join the next 2T is upon us. Unlike Eric I don't expect them to be anything like the boomers so they may be tolerable.

The enlightenment may have indeed run its course, not because it was some great awakening though but rather because it was the out growth of the last Mega-Crisis. It will limp along until the next 2T where that paradigm will be up turned.

Quote:Thus, my guess is that the arrow's force won't be a strong as it was, but the Enlightenment ideas are still relevant.  The Whig arrow might not be totally spent.

If we are taking this arrow as leading to and from the enlightenment it probably is. The progression from Wycliff to Luther to other protestants was spent in the 1770s after all and had been for a long time.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on the cycle. So rather than talking in circles we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Quote:Here we'll get into how extreme partisans see what they want to see more than they see reality.  You're seeing Trump as doing fine.  I'm seeing Washington being highly dysfunctional, as the currently dominant party attempts to do significant culture altering stuff.  Too soon to be sure what's happening.

Current dominant parties typically attempt to do significant culture (or ideology) altering stuff [dependent on which cycle of the two stroke regulator is operating at the moment] so essentially you're going to see Washington continue to be as dysfunctional as it ever was.

As to Trump yeah he's doing fine, even if I think he's playing with fire with Ryancare. But perhaps what he needs to do is let Ryan get on with his thing and fail. And Ryan will fail. He'd be great in opposition but not so much in government.