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The Fourth Turning Halftime Update
#49
(10-26-2018, 01:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(10-25-2018, 08:49 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:
(10-23-2018, 03:43 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(10-23-2018, 01:57 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:
(10-22-2018, 11:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We already live in a world society, since 1892. We only tried to hold back the inevitable tide in the 1920s, and now people who grew up in a white country are wondering what happened again to their white country. Immigration restriction laws were always racist. I documented that in a previous post. Again, as I keep reminding you, no, the immigration issue doesn't have to be partisan. That's why Bush and Obama agreed on a reasonable approach, and why a bipartisan group in the senate proposed a reasonable law and passed it. But the fanatical right-wing idiots in the Tea Party House blocked it. It proved to be the best issue for Trumpty Dumpty to run on. "They're not sending their best. They're bringing drugs, their bringing crime; they're rapists..." Bullshit.
More immigrants will not make us a shithole country. Sure, we need to cut down on population growth, in a humane way by increasing womens' rights and prosperity in all countries.

1. Legal immigration policy shouldn't be political. Likewise illegal immigration shouldn't be political.  Illegal immigration is bad because you get too many people and I think that immigration is a privilege, not a right.

2. So you have two stupid positions. Assigning bad stuff like drugs,criminality, etc. is not correct for legal immigration.  Likewise anyone who supports illegal immigration is also wrong. There are limits to the amount of resources available in the US. Immigration policy needs to take that into account. Also, illegals work under the table so that drains tax revenue. It also gives unfair advantage to employers who hire them. So with that, we need to have E-verify strictly enforced with strict fines for back taxes, tax evasion, and a huge fine for hiring illegal aliens to keep companies from doing that stuff.  I bet it was a fabulous issue for Trump because nobody has done squat about illegal immigration.  Folks are fed up with that nonsense. And... I don't care for race baiters who say any restrictions whatsoever on immigration is "dats razzists."

3. More people = more shit. Yeah we're already a shithole country, so more people will by default make us even moreso.

4. "Immigrants make good workers and business people and good customers."  Really? That's the exact position of Neoliberals!  Honestly,  I truly hate Neoliberals and want them all to burn in hell.  Maybe climate change will send a lot of their shit into the water to be homes to the fishes.

5. Women's rights and family planning. Yes, that's an excellent idea. That's one of few things I'd support foreign aid on.

1. "Too many people" is a worldwide question. I live on Planet Earth. The USA is an abstraction.

2. It is too hard for some deserving immigrants to come here. There needs to be liberal asylum availability, given the amount of tyranny in the world. True, it would be better if they stayed in their country and fought a civil war. But that's really asking them to get killed. Illegals shouldn't work under the table. They should be required to be paid minimum wage. They should be asked to pay a fine and show themselves to be good citizens. Not enough resources? I don't know what that means.

Obama was doing a lot on illegal immigration; he was Deporter in Chief and illegal immigration went way down. Trump did not use the issue because it was necessary; he used it only because he knew there are a lot of prejudiced, hateful people in the USA that he could rally behind him with false accusations, and who would vote for his hate-pandering. There was nothing to be "fed up with" at all, except to be fed up with Trump's race-baiting.

4. I didn't know neo-cons were those who say immigrants make good workers and business people and good customers. No, liberals say that, because it's the truth. Neo-cons start wars for no reason except to impose our economic needs and greeds upon other countries.

1. OK,  "borders=abstractions".  They may or may not be abstractions.  How about when a wolf pack sent marks, then is that an abstraction known by wolf packs. Humans don't know where human borders are and humans don't know any wolf pack borders. They are real when it comes down to the species in question.  Cats also do territories.
So , then "be known by the company you keep", then means (humans,wolves,cats) then territory [borders] is real enough to matter. So in the case at hand, that means there is a known procedure to control the population density in a bordered area that make it happen.


2. "The whole planet is running out of resources we don't need anymore. ..."   Yes, we agree with "whole planet is running out of resources."  Obviously too many peoples = fewer resources per capita.

And...  

"Not enough resources? I don't know what that means"  As for specifics, food and water for starters. Next is proper shelter, and no potty problems.  Next, you have the things make the US in general modern. So this is where the real difference lies.  OK, I'll start at 10,000,000 folks are allowed to come in. You can allocate that 10,000,000 amongst guest workers,refugees,and of course those already here. The thing to remember of course is to get to ZPG within 10 years. This is among things which can readily be done but ain't because assorted panderings here and there do happen.

3. It's the neo-liberals who say immigrants make good workers and business people and good customers.

"No, liberals say that, because it's the truth."  Are sure that all liberals think that way?  And... of course "immigration = better economy".  It depends on who you are and the statistics.   So does immigration increase the per capita GDP, does it affect how does this affect available resources? Neoliberals of course lap immigration up. This is simply the more people of any sort whatsoever, the more profits. Neoliberals are of course blind whether by profits or ignorant,, because unlimited growth on limited resources is a fail.

It could be that you are looking at resources within a nationalist perspective. So, if we allow millions more immigrants into our country, they could use up more resources within the United States.

It is true that we need fair trade, and I don't like the idea of free trade that allows poorer nations to get rich while our own industry and economy are hollowed out because factories and jobs are exported for cheaper costs, whose products are then imported back into the USA and replace local business.

Nevertheless, a fair trade world economy is possible, and in that perspective, the question is not population growth through immigration into the USA that affects "resources," but world population that affects resources, since our resources now come from all over the planet. What I favor is availability of birth control, female emancipation, and economic growth through fairer distribution of wealth and power in all countries. Some kind of international policy is needed to promote this trend, which many nationalists oppose and accuse of being a conspiracy to impose world control.

As for neo-liberals, most of them are Republicans, and while they certainly support more population growth to create economic growth to gain and hog more profit for themselves, most of them today are deferring to Trumpism, whose leader has captured their party, and so are going along with anti-immigration schemes with little protest. Only a few like Jeff Flake are staying true to their neo-liberal philosophy in that regard. Most Democrats are only neo-liberals to an extent, that extent being the feeling that they must sometimes compromise and submit to the great power and false appeal of deceptive, immoral Republican/Reaganoid/Tea Party free-market neo-liberal ideology in our politics today.

1, Yes, I consider natural resources in a nationalistic manner being I think nation-states are the most accepted venue from which public policy can be effect-ably enacted and enforced. A lot of resources don't have a global extent. That means the amount of concern for the disposition of a particular instance of a resource basically varies from a lot for those located nearby and goes to "who gives a fuck" about another instance that's far away. Mineral deposits which include a lot of water aquifers are a good example. The typical American doesn't give a rat's ass about a lake in Africa. Likewise, few Africans know about or even care about American lakes. I'd say, that's human nature.

2. Fair trade.  Yes, I agree with you on that as well.  I'd just add that if cheaper prices are due to some sort of exploitation, then those items so made do not constitute even fair trade, but items produced with an external price of how ever much damage was done in making said item. This means there are lots of reasons just to either ban it outright or tax it to recover whatever externalilities that have been identified.

3.  Democrats in disarray: So, this is what you essentially said. I agree with you on this completely. This means of course the Democratic Party faces an all in moment. I have presented some different hands for winterstorm to consider. In that post, I have described the cards to play and how to play them.  I'm sure I'm not the only one with assorted ideas to have. Obviously, I'd prefer the Democrats to play my cards and fold the ones they are playing now. I think the DNC has problems winning because duh, they keep playing shitty hands.

4. Compromising with Republicans. 
a. In theory they can compromise with Republicans if they knew what exactly their immigration policy is. Is it open borders?  This is something I'm not sure of  , but it appears to be the default without whatever Trump does. So here first, Democrats need a clear policy wrt immigration.
b. They should not compromise ideals which address Neoliberalism as an enemy. They just need to replace "Russia" with "Neoliberals", and let that go.


5. International this and thats.
The best way is to used the time test method of using treaties. This also plays nice with the constitution.
An example of a good treaty is harmonizing carbon taxes. This could be applied to the rates/ton, how to assess assorted product groupings,how to account determine shipping. A product sourced further a way has more shipping, so a higher tax needs to be there.  I would not, ever however pool carbon tax proceeds towards a world fund.  This doen't work because folks get pissed off. The Eurozone is good example of that. Banks went to hell in Greece, but Germany said, no, no no money from us. Essentially, what happened in Greece is a Neoliberal profit extraction operation. They cooked the books for Greece to get in the  EU. Then the cheap loans created the boom bust cycle. This , along with no money for you is why Greece is becoming another shithole.  And...

now you see on circling back. This is why Neoliberalism and Neoconservativism are the true axis of evil. Both do nothing but spread death, misery, shitholedom worldwide with the final price of ecocide.

You see that's what happens. If you keep playing bad cards over the long term, you are a LOSER.
---Value Added Cool
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Messages In This Thread
The Fourth Turning Halftime Update - by sbarrera - 07-28-2018, 10:34 AM
RE: The Fourth Turning Halftime Update - by tg63 - 09-28-2018, 12:14 PM
RE: The Fourth Turning Halftime Update - by Ragnarök_62 - 10-31-2018, 06:48 PM

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