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Flavors of 4Ts
#50
(02-04-2017, 01:19 PM)freivolk Wrote:
(02-04-2017, 01:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(02-04-2017, 12:48 PM)freivolk Wrote:
(02-04-2017, 12:25 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:
(02-04-2017, 12:09 PM)freivolk Wrote: I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

I am not sure I agree.  Prussia and Austria were fairly distinct at this time, and the Austrian Empire extended well outside the HRE, which was basically a legal fiction at this time, anyways.

But let's say you're right, why was the saeculum truncated in the 19th century, in Europe as well as the US.

I would say in Europe we had rather short 1T and 2T as a result of the Napoleonic Wars. The USA had an extreme short 4T with the Civil war.
My theory for the european saeculum: 1T ca. 1800 -1815, 2T 1815 -1830 (July-revolution in France triggers other european uprising), 3T 1830-1848 (european revolutions), 4T 1848-1871 (end of german-french war)

Very close to what I would say. 

1T 1799-1815
2T 1815-1834 (that's extending it a bit, but there was a strong and spirited revolt in France, and a major and successful reform movement in Britain, in 1832, and another uprising in 1834 that was suppressed and was the last one until 1848. The 1832 French revolt is memorialized in Les Miserables).
3T 1834-1848
4T 1848-1871

I think in America it was more parallel to Europe than S&H say.
1T 1794-1821
2T 1821-1835
3T 1835-1850
4T 1850-1865

Anyway you look at it, this 19th century saeculum was shorter, reflecting the speed-up because of the transition to modern times. Many people suddenly entering the cycle; whereas before the Revolution only the elites participated. And the continuing struggle to establish modernity in both Europe and America.

Some say the 1T could have started in the 1780s; maybe 1783 when the Revolution was won, with the 4T starting with the tensions with King George after the 7 Years War. That would mean moving up the other dates too.

I´m also not sure about  US 4T=Civil War. 1850 could easily be the beginning of a crisis period. Still there seems to be the lack of a clear cut hero generation post 1865.

Yes, although the Gilded and Progressive both had some hero traits. The Civil War historian Shelby Foote described how the soldiers had civic and moral values instilled into them. Many born in the 1840s and 50s became civic leaders who pushed reform in the progressive movement later on. 1Ts are not dominated by civic generations, but by nomads, and generally are conformist and materialist. The Gilded Age was no different from other 1Ts in those respects.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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Messages In This Thread
Flavors of 4Ts - by Mikebert - 01-27-2017, 04:51 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Warren Dew - 01-27-2017, 05:40 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by pbrower2a - 01-27-2017, 09:29 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by pbrower2a - 01-27-2017, 09:11 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Eric the Green - 01-27-2017, 11:20 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by David Horn - 01-28-2017, 12:34 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-28-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Mikebert - 01-28-2017, 02:36 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-28-2017, 02:52 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Mikebert - 01-28-2017, 04:04 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-28-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Warren Dew - 01-28-2017, 06:30 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-28-2017, 07:13 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Mikebert - 01-29-2017, 06:55 AM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-29-2017, 11:19 AM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Mikebert - 01-29-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-29-2017, 04:22 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by pbrower2a - 01-28-2017, 06:33 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Warren Dew - 01-28-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Eric the Green - 01-28-2017, 07:26 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-28-2017, 07:23 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Mikebert - 01-28-2017, 03:19 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Eric the Green - 01-28-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-28-2017, 07:24 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Eric the Green - 01-28-2017, 07:33 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-28-2017, 07:52 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by pbrower2a - 01-29-2017, 09:59 AM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Mikebert - 01-29-2017, 05:37 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 01-29-2017, 05:59 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Mikebert - 02-03-2017, 04:53 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 02-03-2017, 04:56 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by JonLaw - 02-01-2017, 07:54 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by freivolk - 02-03-2017, 05:27 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 02-03-2017, 05:31 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by freivolk - 02-03-2017, 05:49 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 02-03-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by freivolk - 02-04-2017, 10:25 AM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 02-04-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Eric the Green - 02-04-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 02-04-2017, 11:55 AM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by freivolk - 02-04-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 02-04-2017, 12:04 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by freivolk - 02-04-2017, 12:09 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 02-04-2017, 12:25 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Eric the Green - 02-04-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by freivolk - 02-04-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by SomeGuy - 02-04-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Eric the Green - 02-04-2017, 01:06 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by freivolk - 02-04-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: Flavors of 4Ts - by Eric the Green - 02-04-2017, 01:37 PM

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