Let's make fun of Trump, bash him, etc. while we can!

[Eric the Green]

(08-28-2016, 01:13 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I'c consider the above attitude a possible symptom of values lock.  Conservatives commonly explain to me how all liberals think, and say that because I am a liberal it follows that they know what I am thinking.  Buzz, wrong.  It is common for those holding one set of world views and values to have stereotypes  of opposing world views and values.  It seems to me that conservatives are more blatant about this than progressives, but in part that is because I lean progressive.  Hey, I have values too.  I do the "I understand them and still disagree with them" thing too.  Well, you know that.  That's what you are complaining about, no?  That's an occupational hazard.  It's part of being human.  Just don't think you're immune, that you are doing it less than others.  There are reasons for the "Eric the Obtuse" tag.

A tag given to me by the most blatantly-obvious locked libertarian ideologue around? I don't think so.

I would say it's possible too for some conservatives to understand how their liberal opponents think. If you make the attempt, it can happen. Usually though, what I hear is their ideology and not much understanding. For some of them, the need to articulate and argue for their position on the air keeps them loyal and tied to their cause, even though they know it's not necessarily the only valid view.

Quote:There is a saying.  "Those that can, do.  Those that can't, teach."  Most of the good professional philosophers I have encountered, respected and learned from are in academia.  The good professional politicians aren't.  I see a clear difference in how the two professions understand and manipulate the world.  Most people can.  I shall continue to speak to most people.

You are off track there. The "profession" is irrelevant. Again, everyone does philosophy. Some just devote more conscious attention to it, and they aren't necessarily paid for doing that. My point again is, to the extent that politics is a form of "knowledge," it is in the realm of philosophy, or some supposed social "science." Ideologies such as Marxism or supply-side/free-market are philosophies, and are also taught in philosophy departments by academics. I know; I studied both Hayek and Marx there. Mises was a visiting professor for 25 years. This is a theoretical question, not an issue of ideology or values. But I think what you say agrees with me. Those who can't do, teach. Politics is in the realm of action; putting knowledge or lack thereof into effect. Teaching is in the realm of knowledge. Those who teach, learn.

Quote:I think this too can be viewed as a universal.  People with a wide variety of ways of seeing the world will say the basics are simple, obvious to the willing, to those ready to open their eyes.  The fact that others can't see it and are unwilling to open their eyes is troubling.  You have a world view.  It isn't universally embraced.  Welcome to the human race.  Worry less about others with closed eyes.  You can do more about your own eyes.  Or can you?  Have you the insurmountable handicap of being human?

I am concerned, for the reasons I have stated. I observe that there are needs to address, such as high prices of various kinds, low wages, climate change, wars of choice, pay-to-play politics, and so on, and I observe who is standing in the way of action on these concerns, and why, and who supports action. It is not my ideology, but my observation from which I speak, when I say that trickle-down free market ideology is the main obstacle to action on these needs. And it is quite obvious to all which parties support and adopt this ideology.

Quote:Too true for comfort.  To a great degree, in advocating our various world views and values, we're all tilting at windmills.  Again, your are stating a near universal, a broad truth that applies to you as well.  You too have been known to angrily dismiss opposing views.  They are not to be taken seriously.  They are to be swept aside by the tides of history.  Do you not recall Classic's recent post to that effect, predicting that Americans will triumph over liberals?

This is a 4T. May the best side win!

Quote:As I've said to Mikebert recently, we are becoming a confrontational hostile culture.  As a whole we are becoming better at screaming than listening.  I'd rather solve problems through the ballot box than on the battlefield.  I'd rather solve problems through courtesy and respect than through politics.  That's hard to do in today's culture, and part of it is the late 3T early 4T season.  Part of the problem is the culture of hostility and prevalence of closed minds itself.

That's what some people say. It's clear to me that this problem lies more on one side than the other, in politics. It is seasonal; there we agree. But you misspoke there; the ballot box is politics. There's no alternative to using it, and the better side must prevail at the ballot box if we are to meet the needs of our time. The problem is that the correct side has not won enough victories; not that there's not enough courtesy. Not that I would not prefer courtesy to screaming, as a method of persuasion. But the truth about how to meet the needs of our time is the issue. That truth does not necessarily come from the most courteous people.

Quote:At this time you and I seem near the point where we are obstinately screaming at each other, trying to see who can deliver the same message in the most decisive way.  I'm thinking we are near a point of diminishing return.

That too, as you say, is universal. Most people here on this site stick to their views. You and I are certainly among those, but there are few if any here who are not also among those.