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Debate about Gun Control
(05-18-2017, 02:58 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The only thing that counts is how the Supreme Court has ruled on the question of whether the justification clause affects the right to bear arms. Anything else is irrelevant to actual US law. Your sarcasm directed towards me is also not relevant to the question, so I won't deal with it.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comm...-amendment

As far as I can tell, there was no ruling before Reconstruction. I'm not sure. But that ruling stood for over 100 years until the right-wing extremists took over our government in 1980. Their takeover bore fruit in the Heller decision.

There were a few 2nd Amendment Supreme Court cases before Jim Crow, but they didn't touch on the collective (Jim Crow) vs individual rights (standard model) question.  This is in large part as the notion of a 'collective right' was invented at the time of Jim Crow.

As far as I've been able to research, there is no such thing as a collective right in Anglo-American law, with the sole exception of the Jim Crow interpretation of the 2nd.

The New Yorker article is spun.  It's facts are more or less correct, but selected.  It is a political article written by a political magazine with an urban perspective.  The 'standard model' articles favoring an individual rights started in academic circles before the political movement took off with the NRA and Republicans.  The political advocates weren't aware of the technical details of the law until the professors started digging into it.  Only after the law was reexamined did the political folk discover they had an issue they could run with.  The New Yorker article pushes the notion that the academic articles and courts were moved by money and political pressure more than the law or the values of colonial and revolutionary times, the true meanings of the words.  That's a fanciful faux talking point.  I don't respect it.  There were Democrats with money pushing too.  There was political pressure applied in both directions.  It's just that academic articles are peer reviewed.  Collective right (Jim Crow) papers didn't get through the peer review.

What I consider important is that they many individual right (standard model) articles were not countered successfully in the academic press.  This is because they can't be countered.  People who tried would be made to look silly.  There were many standard model academic papers referenced in the Heller decision, but little to nothing quoted backing up the collective interpretation.  The academic articles are quite persuasive, at least if one is willing to read them.

I guess, given you aren't willing to read academic research,  I’ll try another summary of Commonplace.

Justification phrase:  A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,”

Implementation phrase:  “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

I have several questions I like to ask of the meaning of the text.

  1. How important did the founding fathers consider the militia?
  2. It is the right of who to keep and bear arms?
  3. Can this right be infringed, limited in any way?

There are many justification phrases found in the state constitutions of the time.  They are there to get voters and legislators to vote in favor.

There is a conflict between “the militia” being spoken of in the justification phrase, but “the people” being given the right in the implementation phrase.  This is common in rights with a justification phrase.  There is commonly a specific group of people who obviously (in the wisdom of the time) need the right, but the right is given to everybody.  Rights were seen as granted by God, thus the implementation phrase was commonly more inclusive than the justification.

“The people” is a term of art used in many federal and state constitutions.  In every right save the Jim Crow interpretation of the 2nd, it is interpreted as meaning everybody, or at least all citizens.

The justification phrase is never read as a limitation, save in the Jim Crow interpretation of the 2nd.  Rights exist to a great extent to limit the power of the government over the people.  Thus, the courts are not given latitude to decide that if the justification phrase no longer applies, the right goes away.

The justification phrase can provide some insight over how to interpret the implementation.  If one’s interpretation of the implementation phrase makes it impossible to achieve the justification phrase’s goal, one is interpreting the implementation phrase wrong.  Thus, if one’s interpretation of the implementation phrase makes it impossible for the common man to own and carry the weapons needed to participate in the militia, one is very much on the wrong track.

But the most interesting part of the article isn’t the principles I reviewed above.  It’s what happens when you apply the Jim Crow methods of interpreting the justification phrase to other rights written with justification phrases.

As legislators need freedom of speech to perform their work, everybody has free speech.  Does this mean individuals do not have free speech unless they are working legislation?

As publishers require freedom of the press to protect democracy, everybody has freedom of the press.  Does this imply the government can censor the writings of non-publishers?  If the government decides freedom of the press for publishers no longer protects democracy, does the right go away?

As knowledge of the local area is key to a successful trial, all trials shall be held in the county where the crime was committed.  Does this mean that improved communications and news coverage makes the need to hold local trials obsolete?  Trials can be held anywhere?  If someone decides that an objective ignorance of the crime gives the defendant a fairer trial, can the law be ignored?

The major use of a justification phrase by a judge trying to interpret law is that one should assume that the authors believed in that justification.  Any interpretation of the law must be made under the assumption that the justification phrase is true.  The implementation phrase interpretation must yield a result consistent with the justification.  That’s the major point made in how to interpret justification phrases, and this point is pressed home by the examples given.

If one is trying to work under the assumption that the justification phrase is wrong, that the authors of the law were mistaken when they wrote down a justification, one is not going to interpret the implementation phrase in the way intended by the authors.  If one assumes that in fact a well regulated militia is no longer necessary for a free state, you might well be right, but you aren’t going to interpret the amendment as the authors intended.

Is it the job of a judge to honestly interpret what the authors intended. Alternately, an activist judge can might throw the law out the window if his modern values don’t mesh with the values of the authors.  This is the difference between enforcing the law and legislating from the bench.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-13-2016, 06:20 PM
An Interesting Cartoon - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-13-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: An Interesting Cartoon - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-13-2016, 07:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-13-2016, 09:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-13-2016, 11:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-14-2016, 01:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by radind - 06-14-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-14-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-16-2016, 06:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 10:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-17-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-20-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-22-2016, 07:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 01:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-23-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-23-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 11:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-16-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 01:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 06-20-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-20-2016, 07:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Skabungus - 07-13-2016, 04:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-16-2016, 11:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-17-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-18-2016, 05:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-16-2016, 01:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 10:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 05:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 06-21-2016, 08:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 05:28 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-18-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bronco80 - 06-20-2016, 04:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-20-2016, 07:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2016, 10:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-18-2016, 10:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-19-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-19-2016, 03:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2016, 10:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-20-2016, 11:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-21-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-21-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-21-2016, 11:05 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 06-22-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 01:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Dan '82 - 06-22-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 11:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 02:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-23-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-25-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-26-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-27-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-27-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 04:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-26-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-27-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-28-2016, 12:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-27-2016, 11:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 12:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-29-2016, 07:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 05:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-03-2016, 08:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-30-2016, 01:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-30-2016, 07:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-30-2016, 10:19 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-30-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 06-30-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-01-2016, 07:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-01-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-02-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-01-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 07-01-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-02-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 05:46 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-03-2016, 02:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-03-2016, 06:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-04-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-04-2016, 04:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-04-2016, 08:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-05-2016, 12:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-05-2016, 05:15 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-06-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-07-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 07-06-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-06-2016, 11:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-07-2016, 01:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-07-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 05:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-08-2016, 12:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Webmaster - 07-08-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-10-2016, 11:09 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-10-2016, 04:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-10-2016, 06:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 07-10-2016, 11:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-10-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-10-2016, 11:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 07-11-2016, 02:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-11-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-11-2016, 08:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 09:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 12:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-11-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 11:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-12-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-12-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-13-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-12-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-12-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-12-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-12-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 07-12-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-13-2016, 07:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-12-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 02:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-13-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by radind - 07-18-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 08-01-2016, 06:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 07-17-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 12:44 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-18-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 10:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 10:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-21-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-15-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-16-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-04-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-15-2016, 05:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-16-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 08-07-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-07-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 08-15-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 08:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 02:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 02:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 03:37 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 08-18-2016, 04:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-19-2016, 02:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-19-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 08-20-2016, 12:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-20-2016, 12:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 06:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-20-2016, 06:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-21-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-22-2016, 03:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-22-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 08-26-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-22-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-23-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-24-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-24-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 09:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-26-2016, 10:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-26-2016, 11:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-30-2016, 10:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 03:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-30-2016, 10:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 03:52 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-01-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-01-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 09-01-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-06-2016, 10:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-06-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-07-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-07-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:35 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 09-07-2016, 02:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 10:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 09-08-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-13-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-08-2016, 01:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 09-07-2016, 09:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 12:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-13-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 02:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 08:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-16-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 09-16-2016, 11:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-27-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 09-28-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 09-27-2016, 08:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-28-2016, 12:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-28-2016, 02:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-14-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 10-18-2016, 12:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-19-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 01:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 10-22-2016, 01:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-23-2016, 06:39 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 10-22-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-13-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-16-2017, 12:19 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-16-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 02-17-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 02-17-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-17-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-17-2017, 02:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 02-16-2017, 07:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-16-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-17-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 02-18-2017, 07:40 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-17-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-18-2017, 01:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-19-2017, 05:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-20-2017, 02:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-20-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-21-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-21-2017, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 04-21-2017, 08:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-29-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 04-30-2017, 02:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 04-30-2017, 03:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-01-2017, 01:45 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-16-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 05-16-2017, 04:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 10:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 10:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-17-2017, 12:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-17-2017, 02:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-17-2017, 06:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-18-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-18-2017, 04:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 08:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-21-2017, 05:45 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-21-2017, 07:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 08:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-21-2017, 10:06 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 11:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 12:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-22-2017, 01:12 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 05-22-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 07:28 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 09:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 10:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 10:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 11:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 05-23-2017, 06:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 12:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 01:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-23-2017, 03:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 07:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-24-2017, 03:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-25-2017, 01:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 01:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by bobc - 05-30-2017, 06:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-30-2017, 07:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-31-2017, 11:09 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-07-2017, 09:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-02-2017, 01:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 12:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-02-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 06:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 06:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 08:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 11:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-08-2017, 03:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-08-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-09-2017, 02:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-09-2017, 04:43 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-09-2017, 08:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-09-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2017, 09:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-15-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-14-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by The Wonkette - 06-14-2017, 01:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-14-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2017, 05:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-15-2017, 12:36 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-15-2017, 09:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2017, 06:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2017, 10:41 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-18-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 06-20-2017, 11:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 10-09-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by The Wonkette - 06-20-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2017, 10:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-09-2017, 05:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 05:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 10:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-10-2017, 01:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-11-2017, 04:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-12-2017, 03:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-16-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-16-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-16-2017, 11:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-16-2017, 07:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-16-2017, 11:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 01:15 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 02:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 08:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-18-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-18-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-18-2017, 09:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-19-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-19-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 03:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-17-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 05:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-18-2017, 02:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-19-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-19-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 03:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-19-2017, 03:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-21-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-21-2017, 01:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-22-2017, 10:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-22-2017, 07:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-24-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-24-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 01:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 10-25-2017, 02:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-25-2017, 03:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 01:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-25-2017, 10:00 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-20-2017, 12:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-21-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-21-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-21-2017, 05:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2017, 03:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-22-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-22-2017, 08:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-23-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-25-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-25-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 11:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-22-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-23-2017, 09:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-23-2017, 12:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 10-24-2017, 02:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-24-2017, 11:37 AM

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