Debate about Gun Control

[Eric the Green]

(06-07-2017, 08:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-07-2017, 06:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: IF there really is "mind," which you refer to, then it can't be explained as matter.

Or matter / space / time / energy...

I'm afraid I'm crossed over to a place where science is the dominant perspective to understand the world, even paranormal phenomena. A mind altering drug or physical damage to a brain effect minds in a way to suppose the physical structure drives the thoughts. Seeing no evidence otherwise, or of consciousness existing outside of brains, I assume minds will in time be fully explained as matter / space / time / energy.

You've crossed over from Medieval to Renaissance times. Congratulations! You are only about 500 years out of date.

Quote:

(06-07-2017, 06:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Then minds don't exist, and they aren't a factor in explaining psi, or anything else, Bob. As I thought; you're not ready to reintroduce mind into your theory of psi. So be it.


The universal mind or cosmic consciousness did occur to a few mystic esoteric initiates and philosophers in the agricultural age, but they were hardly the dominant paradigm or attitude shaping the culture. Still, it lies at the heart of all the religions. Traditional religion in The West remained authoritarian; roughly the idea that a personal god created the world; the Big Daddy in the sky. In the Orient, though, mystical or at least organic views of the cosmos were more prevalent, and so they remain. Modernists adopted materialism; but it's outdated, and post-modern and new age views embrace consciousness again, in an updated way.

The part of this I'd watch is an assumption of your own perspective's superiority. You seem to know which perspective has been 'updated', which is outdated, and which is more evolved with considerable certainty and smugness. Well, this is common enough. Cynic Hero can also be certain and smug that his is the world view that is correct, true, and will achieve nigh on inevitable triumph. Color me dubious. To me, you are both just values locked partisans, ever so sure of yourselves, not ready to reevaluate established thought patterns. Not all world views are as wonderful as their believers perceive. I find the lack of willingness to understand and respect other views as problematic, not to mention a grave cause of unnecessary violence and conflict.

So you're willing to admit that your view may well be outdated? If someone disagrees with you about what is outdated, that means they are "unwilling to listen" and are a cause of violence? Color me dubious. I color you Orange, and Brown.

Quote:

(06-07-2017, 06:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Uncertain or probable does not mean random, as I understand the term. I view probability as more a statement of the limits of knowledge, rather than a definite proclamation that the world happens all by chance. But yes, I am all for minds. I don't use the term supernatural, because there's no division between consciousness and nature; everything is conscious. Pan psychism. Right now, I can't prove it's compatible with quantum theory; maybe another time    

Einstein got caught up wishing for much the same thing. He famously said, "God does not play dice with the universe." He too tried to cling for a time to a clockwork one solution view of quantum effects. He tried to maintain the certainty of the Newtonian style of equations. The difference is that he came to understand that the new equations were different. Instead of breaking the uncertainty, he came to improve the understanding of the uncertainty.

As I see it, you are using the words 'quantum physics' to justify your magical thinking, without understanding quantum physics. It gives me a headache.

Einstein is less quantum than Bohr and Heisenberg, and more Newtonian than they, not realizing the uncertainty of knowledge, and the effect of observation on anyone doing science. You are, also, clinging as you do to the clockwork universe of matter, energy, space and time. Just quoting you. There you are, stuck at Saturn. I don't have a headache. I am not imposing my view on you; you have your own journey.

But beyond Saturn, yes, magic returns! Thank God. We go beyond the visible. The materialist view is so lifeless. In reality, everything is a miracle, and at bottom, cannot be explained at all. But, science tries. And, on the whole, we are not worse off for the attempts-- if we survive the impact of our own use of the technology it spawns.

As Bohr said, "don't tell God what to do, Mr. Einstein"