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Debate about Gun Control
Interesting point of view. I don't entirely agree that today's proposals are feckless; the AR-15 can be called an assault rifle because it's a rapid fire weapon. Details about differences are meaningless, although many T4T fans have argued otherwise on the forums. 1/5 of gun owners buying without a background check is still a lot. That's about all we can hope for now in today's America, so that's why liberals push it. It's interesting that he points out the guns recovered from a crime are rarely in the hands of their legal owners. That's what I have pointed out as one reason guns in the possession of "law-abiding" gun owners means nothing. Their guns get stolen. And if a "law-abiding" gun owner is tempted by the convenience of the gun to use it to murder his wife or personal enemy, then presto-chango that gun owner is no longer law-abiding.

But, maybe it's time for gun opponents to push harder. Aim high and far, and we might get farther. Just like "single-payer" seems to be going farther nowadays. Conservatives take stands and don't mince words, and that works for them. Liberals are timid in the face of conservative passion, and that's why we lose today. At least, that's possible. Right now, many conservatives seem to do better the more conservative they get, while liberal Democrats have been in retreat. On the other hand, Trump may be too wacky, and this is fueling some Democratic successes at the polls. Tea Party wackos have lost some senate races too. So arguably there's a limit, even among some conservatives, on how wacky radical or reactionary each side can get.

OP-ED COLUMNIST
Repeal the Second Amendment
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/op...gle.com%2F


OCTOBER 5, 2017
Bret Stephens

I have never understood the conservative fetish for the Second Amendment.

From a law-and-order standpoint, more guns means more murder. “States with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides,” noted one exhaustive 2013 study in the American Journal of Public Health.

From a personal-safety standpoint, more guns means less safety. The F.B.I. counted a total of 268 “justifiable homicides” by private citizens involving firearms in 2015; that is, felons killed in the course of committing a felony. Yet that same year, there were 489 “unintentional firearms deaths” in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control. Between 77 and 141 of those killed were children.

From a national-security standpoint, the Amendment’s suggestion that a “well-regulated militia” is “necessary to the security of a free State,” is quaint. The Minutemen that will deter Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-un are based in missile silos in Minot, N.D., not farmhouses in Lexington, Mass.

From a personal liberty standpoint, the idea that an armed citizenry is the ultimate check on the ambitions and encroachments of government power is curious. The Whiskey Rebellion of the 1790s, the New York draft riots of 1863, the coal miners’ rebellion of 1921, the Brink’s robbery of 1981 — does any serious conservative think of these as great moments in Second Amendment activism?

And now we have the relatively new and now ubiquitous “active shooter” phenomenon, something that remains extremely rare in the rest of the world. Conservatives often say that the right response to these horrors is to do more on the mental-health front. Yet by all accounts Stephen Paddock would not have raised an eyebrow with a mental-health professional before he murdered 58 people in Las Vegas last week.

What might have raised a red flag? I’m not the first pundit to point out that if a “Mohammad Paddock” had purchased dozens of firearms and thousands of rounds of ammunition and then checked himself into a suite at the Mandalay Bay with direct views to a nearby music festival, somebody at the local F.B.I. field office would have noticed.

Given all of this, why do liberals keep losing the gun control debate?

Maybe it’s because they argue their case badly and — let’s face it — in bad faith. Democratic politicians routinely profess their fidelity to the Second Amendment — or rather, “a nuanced reading” of it — with all the conviction of Barack Obama’s support for traditional marriage, circa 2008. People recognize lip service for what it is.

Then there are the endless liberal errors of fact. There is no “gun-show loophole” per se; it’s a private-sale loophole, in other words the right to sell your own stuff. The civilian AR-15 is not a true “assault rifle,” and banning such rifles would have little effect on the overall murder rate, since most homicides are committed with handguns. It’s not true that 40 percent of gun owners buy without a background check; the real number is closer to one-fifth.

The National Rifle Association does not have Republican “balls in a money clip,” as Jimmy Kimmel put it the other night. The N.R.A. has donated a paltry $3,533,294 to all current members of Congress since 1998, according to The Washington Post, equivalent to about three months of Kimmel’s salary. The N.R.A. doesn’t need to buy influence: It’s powerful because it’s popular.

Nor will it do to follow the “Australian model” of a gun buyback program, which has shown poor results in the United States and makes little sense in a country awash with hundreds of millions of weapons. Keeping guns out of the hands of mentally ill people is a sensible goal, but due process is still owed to the potentially insane. Background checks for private gun sales are another fine idea, though its effects on homicides will be negligible: guns recovered by police are rarely in the hands of their legal owners, a 2016 study found.

In fact, the more closely one looks at what passes for “common sense” gun laws, the more feckless they appear. Americans who claim to be outraged by gun crimes should want to do something more than tinker at the margins of a legal regime that most of the developed world rightly considers nuts. They should want to change it fundamentally and permanently.


There is only one way to do this: Repeal the Second Amendment.

Repealing the Amendment may seem like political Mission Impossible today, but in the era of same-sex marriage it’s worth recalling that most great causes begin as improbable ones. Gun ownership should never be outlawed, just as it isn’t outlawed in Britain or Australia. But it doesn’t need a blanket Constitutional protection, either. The 46,445 murder victims killed by gunfire in the United States between 2012 and 2016 didn’t need to perish so that gun enthusiasts can go on fantasizing that “Red Dawn” is the fate that soon awaits us.

Donald Trump will likely get one more Supreme Court nomination, or two or three, before he leaves office, guaranteeing a pro-gun court for another generation. Expansive interpretations of the right to bear arms will be the law of the land — until the “right” itself ceases to be.

Some conservatives will insist that the Second Amendment is fundamental to the structure of American liberty. They will cite James Madison, who noted in the Federalist Papers that in Europe “the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” America was supposed to be different, and better.

I wonder what Madison would have to say about that today, when more than twice as many Americans perished last year at the hands of their fellows as died in battle during the entire Revolutionary War. My guess: Take the guns—or at least the presumptive right to them—away. The true foundation of American exceptionalism should be our capacity for moral and constitutional renewal, not our instinct for self-destruction.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-13-2016, 06:20 PM
An Interesting Cartoon - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-13-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: An Interesting Cartoon - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-13-2016, 07:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-13-2016, 09:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-13-2016, 11:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-14-2016, 01:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by radind - 06-14-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-14-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-16-2016, 06:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 10:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-17-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-20-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-22-2016, 07:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 01:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-23-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-23-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 11:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-16-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 01:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 06-20-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-20-2016, 07:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Skabungus - 07-13-2016, 04:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-16-2016, 11:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-17-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-18-2016, 05:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-16-2016, 01:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 10:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 05:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 06-21-2016, 08:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 05:28 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-18-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bronco80 - 06-20-2016, 04:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-20-2016, 07:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2016, 10:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-18-2016, 10:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-19-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-19-2016, 03:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2016, 10:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-20-2016, 11:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-21-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-21-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-21-2016, 11:05 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 06-22-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 01:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Dan '82 - 06-22-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 11:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 02:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-23-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-25-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-26-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-27-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-27-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 04:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-26-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-27-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-28-2016, 12:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-27-2016, 11:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 12:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-29-2016, 07:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 05:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-03-2016, 08:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-30-2016, 01:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-30-2016, 07:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-30-2016, 10:19 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-30-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 06-30-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-01-2016, 07:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-01-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-02-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-01-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 07-01-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-02-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 05:46 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-03-2016, 02:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-03-2016, 06:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-04-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-04-2016, 04:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-04-2016, 08:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-05-2016, 12:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-05-2016, 05:15 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-06-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-07-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 07-06-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-06-2016, 11:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-07-2016, 01:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-07-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 05:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-08-2016, 12:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Webmaster - 07-08-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-10-2016, 11:09 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-10-2016, 04:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-10-2016, 06:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 07-10-2016, 11:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-10-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-10-2016, 11:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 07-11-2016, 02:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-11-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-11-2016, 08:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 09:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 12:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-11-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 11:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-12-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-12-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-13-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-12-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-12-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-12-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-12-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 07-12-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-13-2016, 07:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-12-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 02:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-13-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by radind - 07-18-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 08-01-2016, 06:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 07-17-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 12:44 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-18-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 10:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 10:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-21-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-15-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-16-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-04-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-15-2016, 05:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-16-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 08-07-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-07-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 08-15-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 08:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 02:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 02:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 03:37 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 08-18-2016, 04:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-19-2016, 02:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-19-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 08-20-2016, 12:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-20-2016, 12:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 06:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-20-2016, 06:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-21-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-22-2016, 03:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-22-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 08-26-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-22-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-23-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-24-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-24-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 09:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-26-2016, 10:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-26-2016, 11:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-30-2016, 10:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 03:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-30-2016, 10:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 03:52 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-01-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-01-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 09-01-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-06-2016, 10:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-06-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-07-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-07-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:35 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 09-07-2016, 02:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 10:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 09-08-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-13-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-08-2016, 01:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 09-07-2016, 09:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 12:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-13-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 02:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 08:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-16-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 09-16-2016, 11:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-27-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 09-28-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 09-27-2016, 08:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-28-2016, 12:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-28-2016, 02:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-14-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 10-18-2016, 12:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-19-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 01:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 10-22-2016, 01:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-23-2016, 06:39 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 10-22-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-13-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-16-2017, 12:19 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-16-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 02-17-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 02-17-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-17-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-17-2017, 02:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 02-16-2017, 07:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-16-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-17-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 02-18-2017, 07:40 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-17-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-18-2017, 01:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-19-2017, 05:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-20-2017, 02:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-20-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-21-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-21-2017, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 04-21-2017, 08:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-29-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 04-30-2017, 02:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 04-30-2017, 03:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-01-2017, 01:45 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-16-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 05-16-2017, 04:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 10:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 10:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-17-2017, 12:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-17-2017, 02:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-17-2017, 06:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-18-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-18-2017, 04:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 08:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-21-2017, 05:45 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-21-2017, 07:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 08:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-21-2017, 10:06 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 11:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 12:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-22-2017, 01:12 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 05-22-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 07:28 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 09:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 10:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 10:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 11:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 05-23-2017, 06:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 12:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 01:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-23-2017, 03:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 07:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-24-2017, 03:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-25-2017, 01:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 01:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by bobc - 05-30-2017, 06:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-30-2017, 07:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-31-2017, 11:09 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-07-2017, 09:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-02-2017, 01:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 12:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-02-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 06:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 06:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 08:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 11:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-08-2017, 03:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-08-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-09-2017, 02:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-09-2017, 04:43 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-09-2017, 08:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-09-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2017, 09:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-15-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-14-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by The Wonkette - 06-14-2017, 01:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-14-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2017, 05:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-15-2017, 12:36 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-15-2017, 09:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2017, 06:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2017, 10:41 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-18-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 06-20-2017, 11:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 10-09-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by The Wonkette - 06-20-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2017, 10:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-09-2017, 05:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 05:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 10:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-10-2017, 01:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-11-2017, 04:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-12-2017, 03:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-16-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-16-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-16-2017, 11:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-16-2017, 07:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-16-2017, 11:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 01:15 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 02:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 08:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-18-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-18-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-18-2017, 09:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-19-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-19-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 03:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-17-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 05:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-18-2017, 02:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-19-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-19-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 03:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-19-2017, 03:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-21-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-21-2017, 01:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-22-2017, 10:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-22-2017, 07:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-24-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-24-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 01:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 10-25-2017, 02:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-25-2017, 03:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 01:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-25-2017, 10:00 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-20-2017, 12:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-21-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-21-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-21-2017, 05:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2017, 03:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-22-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-22-2017, 08:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-23-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-25-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-25-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 11:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-22-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-23-2017, 09:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-23-2017, 12:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 10-24-2017, 02:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-24-2017, 11:37 AM

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