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Debate about Gun Control
(09-07-2016, 10:36 PM)Copperfield Wrote:
(09-07-2016, 07:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Well yes, I agree. And Jefferson said a little revolution every once in a while is a good thing too. Maybe so. But this was not something that was ever going to be put into the Constitution. A government does not give a people the right to disobey its constitution or its laws. Such a revolution has to be unconstitutional, and the rebels must be ready to pay the price for their rebellion. Dixie paid the price and it wasn't pretty.

Nowadays, unlike in Jefferson's time, the influence of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. have entered the picture. In an at-least semi-civilized society like ours, non-violent revolutions work better. In places like Syria, no. The non-violent protesters needed to form an army, and they did.

They didn't need to. It was already stated up front in the declaration of independence. I suspect they felt it might be redundant after they had just finished, you know, removing the previous government with violence.

Still going along with the non-violence mythologies? India's revolution against the British (the one that led to final independence) was actually quite violent, marked by bombings, raids, acts of sabotage, mutiny and even political assassination against British military and political figures. It was quite the opposite of Hollywood's treatment of the story. Gandhi and his particular civil disobedience movement was only a part of Indian Independence. India's overthrow of British rule is actually historically fascinating once you get past the silly American mythologies. It's remarkable for it not only being a giant cluster fuck but also for taking nearly 200 years from start to finish.

Gandhi was quite influential on the way revolutions have been conducted since Martin Luther King Jr. and the sixties. It's the way to do it now, and has been copied all over the world. It depends on how ruthless the tyrant is, however.

Gandhi was clearly the leader of his movement; that's why he was elected India's first president, and succeeded by his chief deputy.

Quote:
(09-06-2016, 11:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm not so sure you can say the government has declared war on its own citizens. Generation X hyperbole; a common thing you are expressing, although I don't think the majority of Xers feel that way. Yes  it has done some things that I would agree with you are not proper conduct on US citizens. I'm not sure it has ever been any different.

Of course I can. The war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war on crime, the war on terrorism (just to name a few). I mean the government even calls them war by name. And these are just the ones they publically name.
No, the war on poverty was great; the only thing wrong with it was that it was stopped in order to focus on the war on the Vietnamese, and then Reaganomics. The war on drugs is unnecessary and counter-productive, but the main casualties are poor people shooting each other because the war on drugs has made the business so profitable. The war on crime? Criminals have to be stopped. The gangsters have been largely put out of business in this long "war," and crime is down. However, many innocent people have been convicted because they are presumed guilty even if proved innocent. The police are left as the only social workers available because of Reaganomic approaches to poverty and alienation. The "war on terrorism" is problematic. The terrorists have to be stopped, but preemptive wars should also be stopped. But if a "citizen" is a criminal, or a terrorist, then the "war" on that citizen is justified. Unjustified attacks happen when civil rights are violated. But I understand about calling all these projects "wars." They are just law enforcement, or reforms (the war on poverty). "War" is a metaphor Americans are used to, but better ones are needed. I don't agree that we should just let crime and terrorism happen. A Laissez faire approach to crime and terror is just the state not doing the job it's supposed to do, and empowered to do under the Constitution.


Quote:
(09-06-2016, 11:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Why did it call specifically for setting one up, then?

Article I, Section 8 calls on Congress to provide for a standing Navy (that is full-time) but specifically only allows for a maximum of two years of appropriations for a standing army. Note that there is no such mention of a time limit on either the US navy or militia. When the constitution was written there was a major distrust for standing armies (Bob has already been over this with you in greater detail). Indeed for great periods of time there hasn't been a standing army in the United States, usually being disbanded once a particular war was over. That all changed after the world wars and the United States became a military and economic empire (another reason standing armies are bad mmkay?). Hell Congress doesn't even bother deliberating on appropriations anymore. Nearly the entire process is done through the Pentagon and through the Armed Services committee.

Problem is, once you've more or less conquered the entire world you run out of bad guys to fight with all that army. No surprise that, in addition to record weapon sales to foreign nations and fomenting violence in resource rich nations, our government has started to turn its hostility inward eyeing its own citizens.

My point stands though, that the constitution provides for an army, and appropriations every 2 years is not a problem, as you point out. It's routine. So they hardly did anything, given their "distrust." And the Navy is a standing "army" too. But the militia is also a standing army, and the gun nut army is not even "well-regulated." Those who go out and shoot police are no substitute for regulated forces.

Generation X hyperbole says that the shooting of citizens by police is "our government" in action, part of a deliberate attempt to wage war on Americans. It is not; it is mis-behavior not dealt with. There are still real threats to the USA. Many of them exist because of the fact that the US has become so aggressive and powerful since World War Two; that's true. Military spending took us out of the Depression, and I wrote long ago in my book that the cure was probably worse than the disease. The Democrats, unlike Trump and Republicans, understand the need to spend less on the military and intervene less unless our interests are directly threatened. We still need armed forces, but international security should now be a multi-lateral concern and not the actions of one sole superpower. The Democratic adminstrations have been moving us in that direction, if not all the way, while Republican administrations have kept the imperialist approach going and developed projects for a new American Century.

Quote:
(09-06-2016, 11:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes, and the Kurds get US backing. And the Kurds are not anarchist fanatics who hate their autonomous regional state, and merely want to protect their right to bear arms. They are real freedom fighters and deserve our support.

Uhhh yeah... You really should start reading about some of the dogs in the fight over there. You might start learning from the experiences and experiments of others.

"Abdullah Öcalan, a Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) leader imprisoned in İmralı, Turkey, is an iconic and popular figure in Rojava whose ideas shaped the region's society and politics.[64] In prison, Öcalan corresponded with (and was influenced by the ideas of) Murray Bookchin, who favored social ecology, direct democracy, and libertarian municipalism (i.e., a confederation of local citizens' assemblies).[64] In March 2005, Öcalan issued his "Declaration of Democratic Confederalism in Kurdistan" based on Bookchin's ideas, calling upon citizens to "to stop attacking the government and instead create municipal assemblies, which he called 'democracy without the state.'" Öcalan envisioned these assemblies as forming a pan-Kurdistan confederation, united for purposes of self-defense and with shared values of environmentalism, gender equality, and ethnic, cultural, and religious pluralism.[64] The ideas of Bookchin and Öcalan became established in Rojava, where hundreds of neighborhood-based communes have established across the three Rojava cantons.[64] Rojava has a "co-governance" policy in which each position at each level of government in Rojava includes a "female equivalent of equal authority" to a male."

Sounds cool. I've known about Bookchin since the 1970s.

"In March 2016, Hediya Yousef and Mansur Selum were elected co-chairpersons for the executive committee to organise a constitution for the region, to replace the 2014 constitution.[10] Yousef said the decision to set up a federal government was in large part driven by the expansion of territories captured from Islamic State: "Now, after the liberation of many areas, it requires us to go to a wider and more comprehensive system that can embrace all the developments in the area, that will also give rights to all the groups to represent themselves and to form their own administrations."[69] In July 2016, a draft for the new constitution was presented, taking up the general progressive and democratic confereralist principles of the 2014 constitution, mentioning all ethnic groups living in Rojava, addressing their cultural, political and linguistic rights"

Not exactly unorganized, stateless anarchism consisting of mere individuals at war with their own state.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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Messages In This Thread
Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-13-2016, 06:20 PM
An Interesting Cartoon - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-13-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: An Interesting Cartoon - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-13-2016, 07:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-13-2016, 09:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-13-2016, 11:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-14-2016, 01:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2016, 09:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by radind - 06-14-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-14-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-16-2016, 06:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 10:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-17-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-20-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-22-2016, 07:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 01:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-23-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-23-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 11:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-16-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 01:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 06-20-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-20-2016, 07:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Skabungus - 07-13-2016, 04:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 07:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-16-2016, 11:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-17-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-18-2016, 05:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-16-2016, 01:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-16-2016, 10:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 05:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 06-21-2016, 08:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 05:28 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-17-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-17-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-18-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bronco80 - 06-20-2016, 04:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-20-2016, 07:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2016, 10:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-18-2016, 10:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-19-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-19-2016, 03:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2016, 10:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-20-2016, 11:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-21-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-21-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-21-2016, 11:05 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 06-22-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 01:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Dan '82 - 06-22-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-22-2016, 11:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-23-2016, 02:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-23-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-23-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-25-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-26-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-27-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-27-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 04:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-26-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-27-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 06-28-2016, 12:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-27-2016, 11:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 06-28-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-28-2016, 12:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-28-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-29-2016, 07:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-29-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 05:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-03-2016, 08:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-29-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-30-2016, 01:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 06-30-2016, 07:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-30-2016, 10:19 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-30-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 06-30-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-01-2016, 07:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-01-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-02-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-01-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 07-01-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-02-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-03-2016, 05:46 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-03-2016, 02:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-03-2016, 06:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-04-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-04-2016, 04:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-04-2016, 08:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-05-2016, 12:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-05-2016, 05:15 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-05-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-06-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-07-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 07-06-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-06-2016, 11:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-07-2016, 01:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-07-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-07-2016, 05:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-08-2016, 12:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-08-2016, 08:45 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Webmaster - 07-08-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 05:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-09-2016, 05:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-09-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-10-2016, 11:09 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-10-2016, 04:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-10-2016, 06:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 07-10-2016, 11:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-10-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-10-2016, 11:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 07-11-2016, 02:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-11-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-11-2016, 08:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-11-2016, 09:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 12:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-11-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-11-2016, 11:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-12-2016, 08:42 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-12-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-13-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-12-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-12-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 07-12-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-12-2016, 08:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 07-12-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:12 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 07-13-2016, 07:49 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by playwrite - 07-12-2016, 08:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-12-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 07-13-2016, 12:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 02:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 07-13-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:38 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by radind - 07-18-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 08-01-2016, 06:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TnT - 07-17-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 12:44 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-18-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 10:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 07-18-2016, 10:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 07-21-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 06:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-01-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-15-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-16-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-04-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-15-2016, 05:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-16-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 08-07-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-07-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 08-15-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-15-2016, 08:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 02:50 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 02:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-17-2016, 03:37 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 08-18-2016, 04:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-19-2016, 02:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-19-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 08-20-2016, 12:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-20-2016, 12:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 06:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-20-2016, 06:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-21-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-22-2016, 03:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-22-2016, 06:26 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 08-26-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-22-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-23-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-24-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-24-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-24-2016, 09:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-26-2016, 10:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-26-2016, 11:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 08-30-2016, 03:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-30-2016, 10:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 03:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 08-30-2016, 10:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 03:52 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-01-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-01-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 09-01-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-06-2016, 10:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-06-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 12:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-07-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 09-07-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 04:35 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 09-07-2016, 02:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 09-07-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-07-2016, 10:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 09-08-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-13-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:31 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-07-2016, 07:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-08-2016, 01:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 09-07-2016, 09:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 12:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Copperfield - 09-13-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 02:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-08-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 08:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 09-16-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-16-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 09-16-2016, 11:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-27-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 09-28-2016, 12:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 09-27-2016, 08:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-28-2016, 12:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 09-28-2016, 02:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-14-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 10-18-2016, 12:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-19-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 01:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 10-22-2016, 01:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-23-2016, 06:39 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Anthony '58 - 10-22-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2016, 09:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-13-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-16-2017, 12:19 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-16-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 02-17-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 02-17-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-17-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by TeacherinExile - 02-17-2017, 02:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 02-16-2017, 07:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-16-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-17-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 02-18-2017, 07:40 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-17-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 02-18-2017, 01:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-19-2017, 05:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-20-2017, 02:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-20-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 04-21-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-21-2017, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 04-21-2017, 08:18 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 04-29-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Cynic Hero '86 - 04-30-2017, 02:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 04-30-2017, 03:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-01-2017, 01:45 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-16-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 05-16-2017, 04:11 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 10:25 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-16-2017, 10:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-17-2017, 12:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-17-2017, 02:57 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-17-2017, 06:05 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-18-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-18-2017, 04:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 08:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-21-2017, 05:45 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-21-2017, 07:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 08:03 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-21-2017, 10:06 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-21-2017, 11:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 12:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-22-2017, 01:12 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 05-22-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 07:28 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 09:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 10:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-22-2017, 10:28 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2017, 11:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 05-23-2017, 06:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 12:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 01:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-23-2017, 03:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 07:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 05-24-2017, 03:25 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-25-2017, 01:20 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-23-2017, 01:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by bobc - 05-30-2017, 06:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-30-2017, 07:53 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 10:02 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 05-31-2017, 11:09 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-07-2017, 09:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-23-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-02-2017, 01:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 05-31-2017, 12:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-02-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 06:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 04:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 06:59 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-07-2017, 08:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-07-2017, 11:08 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-08-2017, 03:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-08-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Ragnarök_62 - 06-09-2017, 02:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-09-2017, 04:43 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-09-2017, 08:10 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-09-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2017, 09:13 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-15-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-15-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-14-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-14-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by The Wonkette - 06-14-2017, 01:13 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-14-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-14-2017, 05:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 06-15-2017, 12:36 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-15-2017, 09:48 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Odin - 06-16-2017, 06:30 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2017, 10:41 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 06-16-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-16-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Mikebert - 06-18-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 06-20-2017, 11:58 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Warren Dew - 10-09-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by The Wonkette - 06-20-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 06-20-2017, 10:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Bob Butler 54 - 10-09-2017, 05:40 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 05:54 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-09-2017, 10:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-10-2017, 01:06 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-11-2017, 04:51 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-12-2017, 03:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-16-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-16-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-16-2017, 11:57 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-16-2017, 07:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-16-2017, 11:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 01:15 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 02:41 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 08:33 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-18-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-18-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-18-2017, 09:07 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-19-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-19-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 03:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-17-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-17-2017, 05:32 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-17-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-18-2017, 02:42 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-19-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-19-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 03:44 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-19-2017, 03:16 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-19-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-21-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-21-2017, 01:50 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-22-2017, 10:21 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-22-2017, 07:29 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-24-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-24-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 01:59 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 10-25-2017, 02:11 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-25-2017, 03:23 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 01:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-25-2017, 10:00 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-20-2017, 12:10 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-21-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-21-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-21-2017, 05:49 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-22-2017, 03:47 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-22-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-22-2017, 08:19 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-23-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by David Horn - 10-25-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-25-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Classic-Xer - 10-25-2017, 11:09 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-22-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by noway2 - 10-23-2017, 09:16 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Eric the Green - 10-23-2017, 12:55 PM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by Galen - 10-24-2017, 02:29 AM
RE: Debate about Gun Control - by pbrower2a - 10-24-2017, 11:37 AM

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