Presidential election, 2016

[Classic-Xer]

(11-23-2016, 05:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-23-2016, 01:23 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Engaging them how? How do you expect me to engage the left radicals that exist and represent the interests on your side?  Do/can you accept my more serious criticism or outright rejection and more serious conflicts with those who express certain views and hold certain beliefs based on your overall knowledge of the American people in general? What you're not taking into account or accepting as a reality is a persons ability to adjust and adapt their personalities to the environment or the people whom they perceive as being a threat or to a person they really dislike. You can't apply heavenly values  to real life people or real life environments and situations or circumstances that occur and exist in a not so perfect not even close to being a perfect world.
 
As far as how I'm viewed or perceived by those whom I have engaged on your side, I should be viewed as the type of person who could seriously take them on and defeat them. Do I scare the more radical and the more self interest serving left wingers? I hope so because I'm giving them a glimpse of those who will accept and are capable of accepting sacrifices in order to destroy them.Where are we at? We are at where I told you we'd be at in the not so distant future. What happens to people who do not work with the American view or no longer have a basic understanding or an inkling as to what American values are today? I don't claim to know but I do believe we are going to find out in the not so distant future. Can you live without Eric or Playdude, I assume that you are quite capable of living without either of them, Can you live without me? Probably? I haven't directly contributed to your life. Whatever you have, whatever you've accomplished, whatever you cherish, I'm sure that you put in the bulk of the time, the effort and sacrifices  to acquire, accomplish and achieve them. How many people to do know who have done nothing the get something? If you don't know anyone or hardly anyone, why do you expect me to believe in blue values or drop my values? I'm not a fool. How many fools are willing to go a long for the sake of themselves?

I’m not sure I’m parsing that first paragraph right.  I do believe people have strong values, will not let go of them lightly, and the values are in part related to what part of the country one comes from.  I have seen clearly enough how the values conflicts can lead to hatred and antagonism.  I don’t like it, but it is plain enough to see.  I am also dubious that such conflict is constructive, that building resentments and digging in ever more stubbornly is going to be the ultimate answer.

I think one can, should and must apply idealistic (though I would not use the word ‘heavenly’) values to 4T culture clashes.  Enlightenment philosophy was a significant factor in the Revolution.  The desire to free the slaves was a significant factor in the US Civil War.  Fighting for continued democracy was a significant factor in World War II.  The notion of the common man coming together to fight not for perfection, but for the removal of a few of the greatest flaws in society, is at the core of crisis conflicts.

Historically, conservatives don't necessarily agree with the ideals.  The Divine Right of Kings is how things have ever been, and how they should ever be?  Slavery has been the cornerstone of all civilizations?  The boom and bust economy common before the New Deal is perfectly acceptable?  When I hear your rejection of idealism, I can't help but look back at history, at how previous conservative generations have rejected the new ideals proposed by the progressives.

Progressives see problems that must be fixed.  Conservatives don’t see the problems as that grave.  Both perspectives might seem natural if the problems aren’t so serious in the conservative region as in the progressive.  Historically, if one doesn’t solve the problems they continue to get worse until the resolve finally comes that they must be addressed.  Alas, if the problems are worse in the more progressive regions, and the solutions are applied nationwide, there is a perception in conservative areas of fixing what isn’t broken.  It is natural to ask why one can’t just be left alone.

Could you be more specific on what you mean by ‘take them on and defeat them’?  Are you talking abstractly about exchanging forum posts, or are you threatening violence?  I’m becoming more familiar with hillbilly culture.  In abstract I’m aware that violence, drugs and crime are embraced by some among the Republican base.  To some degree a Scotts Irish heritage with the military and violent tradition that comes with it is embraced, is a point of pride.  I’m far closer to the Whig / Yankee culture.  I can vaguely understand the Hillbilly values, but don’t sympathize with them much.

I disagree with your calling red values ‘American’ while implying that blue values are not.  The Whig / Yankee culture striving for freedom, equality, democracy and other ‘heavenly’ ideals has just as strong an influence, has just as strong a tradition, as the Scotts Irish culture.  We won the Revolution and Civil War after all.  Both cultures will wave the flag with as much vigor and as much pride.

It is the nature of Whig / Yankees to want to fix problems.  We see some problems today that badly need fixing.

I don’t particularly ‘need’ Eric, Playwright or yourself.  None of us are particularly necessary to each other’s maintaining their life styles.

I don’t see you as a fool.  I see a lot of folk with red values (and blue) as values locked, unable to honestly evaluate reality.  I anticipate, having no evidence otherwise, that you can operate just fine within the cultural environment you are used to.  Operating well within a cultural environment does not mean you can understand other cultural environments or judge them well against objective reality.  Your perspective is generally red correct blue wrong.  As usual with the partisan approach, the folk on the 'wrong' side are presented as stupid, evil, insane or otherwise mentally incompetent.  I strive to at least understand how both sets of values came into existence and why modern practitioners of different value sets will be pushing in different directions.

For me, after seeing what borrow and spend trickle down did during the two Bush administrations, I have real trouble understanding how anyone would want to go that route again.  I have trouble with folk who reject whole branches of science, such as climate science or evolution.  Oh, in theory, in abstract, perhaps I can see how it happens.  If one lives in a media bubble where one world view has been persistently pushed, or if one is deeply religious and cannot let go of the literal interpretation of the Bible, I can understand in principle why some people just aren’t going to change reality challenged perspectives short of a catastrophic failure of their old way of looking at things.  That’s just how humans think.  In our youth we develop ideas on how the world works and what goals should be striven towards.  Reevaluating these values is hard.  Humans aren’t good at it.  Seeing people clinging to how they have always thought is very much the norm.  I expect it as much from Whig / Yankees as Scotts -Irish.  

Expecting such intense inability to work outside one’s values is one thing.  Being happy about it is another.

Who's idealism am I constantly rejecting/dismissing as being irrelevant, inapplicable or impractical? Which group have I been focused on engaging? Hint: It's not the American ideals you've referenced or the Americans directly associated with them and the accomplishments associated with them up to this point. Dude, we borrowed and spent since the beginning. We borrowed and spent to acquire the bulk of the land that we call home. Trickle down economics has been in place forever. The kings and queens used trickle down. The emperors and the communist regimes of Europe used trickle down. The Democratic party of today uses the big government version of trickle down.