02-18-2017, 02:25 AM
(02-16-2017, 12:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(02-16-2017, 03:40 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:(02-16-2017, 03:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(02-16-2017, 02:09 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:What was your intent? Withdraw and watch as radical Islam takes control over most of the Middle East. Can you imagine what the world be like with radical Islamic's who are armed with nukes? A scary new world with much higher stakes than the sorta scary old world that we grew up in. I don't consider myself to be a citizen of the world either. However, I'm not foolish enough to ignore history and a couple of World Wars that could have been prevented or significantly reduced with the existence of a super power like us today. We (us and all our allies) have unbelievable military power that can be used against radical Islam within the Middle East. It's better to deal with them now over there.(02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of radical Islam.
That's not my intent because military action is the wrong tool. Basically, the people there need to sort their own stuff out because we can't fix that place. It's beyond recall. I'm just demand we stop being 5 times as stupid as Russia. Besides screw Israel. I'm a citizen of Oklahoma and the United States. I'm not a citizen of the world and of course not a citizen of Israel. If Israel wants to build settlements, fine, just let them get the blow-back. We also need to stop being associated with lightning rod issues like Israel.
1. Like I told Eric, I'd just let Russia and Iran take care of Syria. Both of those countries do not want radical Islam, like IS. So, for Syria, just let Assad,Russia, and Iran handle that situation. Now, since they'll screw up IS in Syria, that takes the pressure of the pieces of Iraq. Iraq isn't even a proper country. So. let's just let the Kurds or Turkey have that one. You can't pick both, it has to be either Turkey or the Kurds. I'd just let the spooks decide which one is best to support with arm shipments. No bombings , drones, etc. Afghanistan, what do you think will work? We've been there a long time and nothing's worked so far. Libya is a real stupid thing. We killed Qaddafi and left a vacuum for IS. That was just so brilliant. I can't fix that either. That's why I just said, let it go. There's nothing to fix it. The Super Power thingie is a myth. Do superpowers have 3rd world infrastructure like that damn in California and I-35 in the twin cities? The US spends more on "defense" than the rest of the world. Of course we're not dealing with them "over there". Orlando's proof of that. The best way to keep 'em out is to not let them in to begin with. I do not want the US to suffer the same fate as Europe. Europe just fucked itself in the ass with Merkel's madness. The best thing we can do wrt safety from radical Islam is to keep it out. That means no refugees allowed. Let's learn that lesson from Europe. Yeah, I know I might have triggered any special snowflakes, but oh well. This is where outcomes determine the means. Now, you ask, about retaliation. Yeah, sure, that's what drones and the Spec/OPS are for. It's 4th generation warfare, so 4th generation tactics are how you do it.
(renumbered since you had no #2 here)
I AM a citizen of the world. But that means I am not on board with one or a group of powerful countries dominating and imposing their will on others, including the USA.
Unfortunately, Assad can't take care of anything. He is a war criminal only interested in wiping out the Arab Spring democratic rebellion against him. I have seen zero indication that Russia is interested in anything other than wiping out this democratic rebellion against Assad. Iran is helping wipe out the IS in Iraq, though not in Syria. But I am not fine with letting Iran take over Iraq or wipe out Sunnis there. Iran and its militias alone can't be trusted.
I understand your idea that we should let the Middle East people wipe out the IS, and not be involved. You may be right. I just think people ought to be informed on the actual facts there, and not lie and confuse things in order to convince Americans to stay out of there.
We did not "kill Qaddafi." This is the kind of stuff I mean. We can disagree whether the USA should have had any involvement there in 2011. We did do some bombing early, but it was the Libyans who rebelled, and it was the Libyans who killed Qaddafi, not the USA. Recognize the fact that many people in the Middle East want to move forward into democracy. It is not a Western idea now; it's universal. People want it, and they rise up. It's only a matter of time. Now the question is whether the USA will keep its commitment to democracy and be a beacon to the world, or lose it.
Going along with Trump's madness of "keeping them out" is un-American. Refugees need our help. They are victims of Assad and other terrorists. I disagree with keeping Jews out during the Holocaust, and I disagree with keeping Syrians out during this latest holocaust. But they and all immigrants need to be well vetted, airports need to be guarded against weapons and terrorists, intelligence needs to be used. Obama and Co. were doing all that well. Keeping Muslims out only increases the terrorists' ability to recruit more terrorists to attack us and to build the IS. Trump's madness has zero effect on safety, is aimed at the wrong targets, and inflames the Muslims against us instead of the IS.
Quote:2. Uh, you indicated earlier a concern about balanced budgets. How about we cut military spending to achieve balanced budgets. I'd of course use taxes to achieve some balance. How about debt free money? And of course getting rid health insurance companies,VA,medicaid and just have a single proven program do all that stuff?
That's right.
Quote:3. I think the meme of "if we don't meddle in a bunch of places" .... that we'll get another World War. Papa Uncle Sam has to keep all the children of the world in their place. I find that attitude rather weird and probably a meme brought into being by PNAC or something. PNAC thinks just like that. Their platform is the US always , always knows what's best for a country because we're a benevolent leech that steals with the help of assorted local elites other countries' stuff.
One time, about 75 years ago now, we got a world war because we REFUSED to "meddle." It's a question of when and where. I don't claim to know for sure where the balance is. The USA has meddled way too much. But to just withdraw into our own country is not the answer. We are a vital part of keeping world order and justice. We can't go it alone, as the all-knowing Papa, but we can't be ostriches. It IS one world, whether people like it or not. We are all involved with all the world, in every way. It is abundantly clear that the USA is no better than any country. There's no reason for people to identify with their country.
War is a last resort; peace is the best way. Let that be our guide. But hiding behind walls will just allow aggressive tyrannies to fester and grow. Laws are needed at home to restrain the greedy, violent and hateful. Laws are needed abroad for the same reason.
OK. I'll try and count properly this time.
1. A decision to bug out of the Middle East is like shooting fish in a barrel. I'm pretty sure global warming + the inhabitants' whacked out proclivities will ensure that situation will take care of itself on its own. It will become an *anarchic hell hole featuring Hobbesian war of all against all.
2. OK. You can be a world citizen since that's your choice. I'm indifferent to how Eric views himself. As for Assad, let's do something different that we did in all of those other failures, which is to do nothing. Einsteinian definition of insanity and all that rot.
3. Who killed Qaddafi? Yes, a faction of Libyans did the actual kill, but Hillery cackled about her help here.
bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah pure eviillll
3. Refugees/illegals/etc.
Obviously, with a current population of approx 320 million along with globals warming's upcoming number on the land's carrying capacity, I highly recommend taking all steps to attempt a slow population decline. That includes restricted immigration along with rejiggering the tax code to essentially bribe folks to keep their litter's small. There will be no labor shortage due to mechanization.
4. Isolationism.... leads to .... some big bad war war II situation. This makes no sense. The US before WWII was not a meddler. The conditions leading to WWII started in WWI and the hyperflation that destroyed Germany's economy. Those conditions don't exist now and nukes pretty much change the calculus of conducting a war like that to obtain resources. The resources are running out world wide and who wants to occupy a nuclear wasteland?
5. How does Trump's reduction in the number of refugees allowed cause blow-back? It's meddling by bombing/droning their stuff in their own living areas that does that sort of stuff.
---Value Added