09-29-2020, 08:50 AM
(09-29-2020, 05:14 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(09-29-2020, 12:23 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Why do you tend to forget that you still live in an American country and forget that Americans have the Constitutional right to defend themselves and their country? Dude, we won't be anarchists, we'll be directly engaging with anarchists and waging war with anarchists and when we're done with them, we'll be coming for you and whoever is left as far as your politicians/government officials and rich people.
It seems worth while to visit Portland again. The Proud Boys were attempting to instigate violence, heading into a peaceful protest, intending to use paint ball guns, but carrying real weapons. This from the weapons carried was obviously premeditated. They managed to find an Antifa person, not looking to instigate, looking to defend against instigators, to respond with lethal force to anything that looked like a lethal threat. A knife turned the trick, and down one instigator. The Antifa guy didn’t hang around and talk to the responding police, and as a result fell victim to a order to ‘get him’ by Trump. It was an outside judicial process killing, with no real use of force to justify it.
Taking firearms to a lawful protest is not free speech. Firearms on display are intimidation, which does not lie within the bounds of freedom of expression. Our system is made for non-violent discussion and not for threats of bodily harm. To be sure there are limits on speech. Most obviously one has no duty to be a receptive audience to something odious, whether such be a stream of filthy language or an extremist harangue. For good reason we do not have loudspeakers blaring the official statements of the government except in an emergency (such as "Evacuate now!" as a hurricane or tsunami approaches).
Quote:Lessons learned? There are jerks ready to instigate and escalate on both sides? If you want to play these violent games, they could at any point turn deadly. I think you are quite correct to stay well short of the instigating line. The use of fireworks or paint ball guns which are not quite lethal to tempt the other side to escalate is part of the game.
Some people did not learn their civics lessons in school and figured how they wanted the world to be. They believe that democracy means that the majority or that people like they who act in a delusion of righteousness can squelch the expressions that contradict their beliefs. It's easy enough to find examples of people who have so acted in the past. That some semblance of democratic process operates is not enough. Lynch mobs reliably operate on the principle that the majority at the time and place make the decision and carry out that decision swiftly and promptly.
Classic X'er may entertain violent thoughts on occasion and those slip through on occasion. Thoughts are not actions in themselves. Most of us have some control of our deeds and know enough to not turn our most disgusting thoughts into objectionable deeds. One cannot stop a thought that robbing a liquor store would be easy, but one can and must refrain from doing so.
Quote:The result? The latest reporting from Portland has the Proud Boys drinking beer at the park, with Antifa in another park three miles away. Neither side is quite so willing to push now that they have seen the lethal result. Even the US Marshalls seem to be dodging press coverage of the improper use of force.
Public officials are ordinarily expected to remain mute about something under investigation.
Quote:I am not seeing the anarchy you seem to like talking about. I am seeing instigation by the red, and a right to self defend by Antifa. In ‘we’ll be coming for you” I am hearing a chicken clucking.
However valid the justification and acceptable the result, self-defense is often as lethal and violent as the deed that one defends against. Flight is often the best solution, but we are still animals. We may not have the right to defend a loaf of bread with lethal force, but all bets are off if something poses a threat to us or our loved ones -- just as if we were mother bears protecting her cubs.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.