The Maelstrom of Violence

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-01-2017, 06:02 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Oh, I've listened to them.  It's just that in doing humor, they are allowed and expected to disparage and exaggerate.  The end result is nothing like objective truth.  They are spinning like crazy, presenting biased stuff, telling their selected audience what they expect to hear, with the intent to boost ratings an profit from the political discord they sow.

I have a much more benign view toward them. If you don't know that they include facts in what they do, then I don't think you are listening to them, no.

Of course you have a benign view.  You and they are extreme partisans spinning in the same direction.  What they say you are primed to accept without question, just as you will reject without question the NRA angle.  To me, they have an angle and you have to understand that angle and value what they say taking their spin into account.

Good propaganda these days is often based on truth, whether one is a late night comic or the NRA.  Fishing for reality from partisan sources requires understanding and removing the spin.  Accepting one type of spin with enthusiasm and little skepticism while rejecting the opposite spin is a good way to get trapped in a bubble reality.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Right; give it up about the NRA. My mind is not closed in general, but it is closed about the NRA. Demonic indeed.

I'm trying to talk about extreme partisanship and closed world views.  You are just presenting such a perfect example.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If you dislike someone, that is your decision. But that, and discussion about another poster's inadequacies, and unasked-for advice, is a personal attack, and not a discussion of the issues, and does not belong on this forum.

I'd like to see you live up to the boast.  If someone disagrees with you, they are demonized.  Your personal point of view is presumed to be correct, and anyone who disagrees with you must be utterly defeated.  Are  you going to stop telling people they are wrong and demanding they change or allow themselves to be politically subdued?  From my point of view, disagreements on political world views makes up the core part of these forums, the 'General Political Discussion' section in particular.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I understand the opposing perspectives all too well.

You straw man quite a bit.  You have odd ideas on how they other guys think that seldom mesh with how they are actually thinking.  Not just  you by any means.  It's a common problem.  It's a core part of why extreme partisans can't communicate.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I agree about major world views having solid reasons for coming into existence. That's what spiral/planetary dynamics is about, and the review of planetary types I posted by Vic DiCara. Now though, our regressives are clinging to these memes when they need to move beyond them. Those who perpetuate these deceptions I might call demons, because I am angry at what they do. But I don't hate people, or dismiss the possibility that anyone has the potential to see the inherent light within them.

Planetary Dynamics isn't dynamic.  You have clumped various world views / memes / areas of human endeavor into groups, associated these groups with planets and colors, and made value judgements about which groups are better than others.  It's a pretty good structure reflecting your schemes of things.  Those who think like you are good.  Those who don't are bad.  You listen to some folks well, and reject what comes from other groups.  It isn't a bad structure, so long as  you understand that everybody forms different world view groups, embraces certain groups, rejects other groups.  Your prejudices are not uniquely true in any way.  The basic structure of Planetary Dynamics can be used as a model of how extreme partisans think.  They make up their mind in advance as to what they will embrace, what they will reject.  Late night comics good.  NRA bad.

Now, I can agree with you that certain world views and memes are obsolete to dangerous.  The unraveling memes are key among them.  (Trickle down, borrow and spend, cut domestic services, spend on the military, the government is the problem.)  At a different level, tribal morality is a problem.  Many are out to optimize the culture for their own group, and diminish or disparage other groups.  In the health care debate, this sort of thinking has been expressed as "I've got mine, up yours."  The idea seems behind much racist thinking, and the alt right's opposition to equality, the notion that striving for equality is a form of tyranny and oppression.  (This isn't to say that striving for equality can't be overdone.)

But it seems safe to suggest that everyone has a set of memes they think obsolete, and a set of memes that they advocate for.  The above paragraph tops my personal list.  While convincing me that the above aren't important will be hard, I'm not going to pretend my list is uniquely universal or the only possible list.  I also completely expect those who disagree with me to believe in and defend well memes which oppose mine.

And this forum is a place for such activity.

(07-01-2017, 09:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Demonic means that one is possessed by something not themselves. I know that this happens to all of us, much of the time.

Huh?  You seem to be throwing in some of your magical thinking?  The nuns fed me stories as a kid of demons taking over people, among other stories, with no real evidence.  Are you talking about magical thinking or is that some sort of allegory for your understanding of psychology?

Anyway, my own recent use of 'demon' is that demons demonize people.  Commonly, extreme partisans will insult, disparage and fail to understand extreme partisans of opposite ilk.  I see this as a problem, a character flaw, a way of thinking that one might strive to overcome.  Extreme partisans might see the tendency as a virtue.  Since side A is right, side B is wrong, it is acceptable to exaggerate, spin, insult, make fun of and in any way diminish the other guy.  This can definitely be taken too far.  It's a good excuse for the other guys to ignore everything that is being said, to respond in kind.