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Researchers Finally Confirm There Is Life After Death
#1
http://anonhq.com/empirical-evidence-res...ife-death/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/67...king-study

Thoughts?
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#2
(05-27-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote: http://anonhq.com/empirical-evidence-res...ife-death/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/67...king-study

Thoughts?

I have seen claims that

(1) images of the beginning of the Afterlife (a bright light at the end of a tunnel) are normal for a body shutting down. This is a physical reality and no mystical experience. Some drugs (I believe ketamine) give such an experience.

(2) images of the Afterlife fit the cultural values of the person. Christians find themselves meeting Jesus -- not Mohamed, the Buddha, or the gods of the Greek or Norse pantheon.

...Almost nobody goes back from the Afterlife and changes his religious beliefs to fit what he saw. People may change their behavior to better fit some orthodoxy, but that is very different from a conversion. People are more likely to have their beliefs strengthened  -- not shaken. I have yet to hear anyone come back saying "I went to a concert hall and heard Artur Rubinstein play Mozart's 33rd piano concerto" (Mozart wrote 28 piano concertos in This World) or "I got to sample a mature literary work of Anne Frank" (we all know what happened to her in This World).

If Heaven is so wonderful there would of course be few returns. But people would be more likely to return from Hell. If the Afterlife put me in something resembling a Gulag, then I would want out... fast!

I could probably write a fictional short story about Heaven.

I was a bit short of cash, so I chose to avoid the Ohio Turnpike by using US 20. Traffic is light on 20, and the Turnpike is about as dull a drive as there is. I'd probably go back by night; the true beauty of the Turnpike is best appreciated in darkness, when there's nothing to see, anyway. But this time there was one too many drivers on US 20, a drunk driver. He practically fell asleep at the wheel at 11 AM, got awakened by the grooves at the edge of the pavement, over-corrected, and spun out of control at 60 mph. I couldn't stop fast enough.

I had my seat belt on, which saved me from a quick death. I pulled the keys from the ignition, unbuckled my seat belt, opened the door, got out, closed the door, pulled out my cell phone to call the police, and went to examine the accident scene. The driver of the other car was already dead. I could see the broken whisky bottle in his lap.

I examined my car. It looked like a total loss. I felt horrible; I was weakening quickly due not to the realization that I would have to replace the car, but instead because I had internal injuries that were going to take me down. As the county sheriff approached I collapsed.

The end? No. The Beginning! I boarded some semblance of a vehicle. It resembled the bus in the movie It Happened One Night, or that stretch of train trip I had in Colorado (with the German and Brazilian exchange students) once I got in, more for the conversations than for the technology and appointments of the vehicle. Most were old people, but there were some others -- but not the fellow who had careened into my car. Some clenched their rosaries, a couple read from the Koran, and... well, I had a copy of Why I am Not a Christian (Bertrand Russell). That was now out of sight and out of mind. It was a good trip, and I didn't have to look outside. People seemed good enough. Bus? Aircraft? Space ship? Boat? It did not matter then.

We disembarked on a different planet. In a way it resembled San Francisco -- tropical in vegetation, but on the chilly side. That was reassuring. I don't have much time to discuss the scenery here, except to say that it is spectacular. We met a friendly old fellow who greeted us.

"Everything that you think you know about me is completely wrong. You could never understand me when you were alive, and I will take some getting used to. It's worth it. For you this is Heaven. We have a busy schedule... college lecture and library time today, horseback riding tomorrow, hike in nature the next day, music concert the next, skiing and snorkeling...

Have a cigar, Bill,"

"But I don't smoke", I replied.

The old man looked at me and said, "What do you think -- that you will get cancer from it? You are already dead!"

If even the smokes are safe, this must be a very different planet.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#3
(05-27-2016, 11:29 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(05-27-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote: http://anonhq.com/empirical-evidence-res...ife-death/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/67...king-study

Thoughts?

I have seen claims that

(1) images of the beginning of the Afterlife (a bright light at the end of a tunnel) are normal for a body shutting down. This is a physical reality and no mystical experience. Some drugs (I believe ketamine) give such an experience.

(2) images of the Afterlife fit the cultural values of the person. Christians find themselves meeting Jesus -- not Mohamed, the Buddha, or the gods of the Greek or Norse pantheon.

...Almost nobody goes back from the Afterlife and changes his religious beliefs to fit what he saw. People may change their behavior to better fit some orthodoxy, but that is very different from a conversion.  People are more likely to have their beliefs strengthened  -- not shaken. I have yet to hear anyone come back saying "I went to a concert hall and heard Artur Rubinstein play Mozart's 33rd piano concerto" (Mozart wrote 28 piano concertos in This World) or "I got to sample a mature literary work of Anne Frank" (we all know what happened to her in This World).

If Heaven is so wonderful there would of course be few returns. But people would be more likely to return from Hell. If the Afterlife put me in something resembling a Gulag, then I would want out... fast!

I could probably write a fictional short story about Heaven.

I was a bit short of cash, so I chose to avoid the Ohio Turnpike by using US 20. Traffic is light on 20, and the Turnpike is about as dull a drive as there is. I'd probably go back by night; the true beauty of the Turnpike is best appreciated in darkness, when there's nothing to see, anyway. But this time there was one too many drivers on US 20, a drunk driver. He practically fell asleep at the wheel at 11 AM, got awakened by the grooves at the edge of the pavement, over-corrected, and spun out of control at 60 mph. I couldn't stop fast enough.

I had my seat belt on, which saved me from a quick death. I pulled the keys from the ignition, unbuckled my seat belt, opened the door, got out, closed the door, pulled out my cell phone to call the police, and went to examine the accident scene. The driver of the other car was already dead. I could see the broken whisky bottle in his lap.

I examined my car. It looked like a total loss. I felt horrible; I was weakening quickly due not to the realization that I would have to replace the car, but instead because I had internal injuries that were going to take me down. As the county sheriff approached I collapsed.

The end? No. The Beginning! I boarded some semblance of a vehicle. It resembled the bus in the movie It Happened One Night, or that stretch of train trip I had in Colorado (with the German and Brazilian exchange students) once I got in, more for the conversations than for the technology and appointments of the vehicle. Most were old people, but there were some others -- but not the fellow who had careened into my car. Some clenched their rosaries, a couple read from the Koran, and... well, I had a copy of Why I am Not a Christian (Bertrand Russell). That was now out of sight and out of mind. It was a good trip, and I didn't have to look outside. People seemed good enough. Bus? Aircraft? Space ship? Boat? It did not matter then.

We disembarked on a different planet. In a way it resembled San Francisco -- tropical in vegetation, but on the chilly side. That was reassuring. I don't have much time to discuss the scenery here, except to say that it is spectacular. We met a friendly old fellow who greeted us.

"Everything that you think you know about me is completely wrong. You could never understand me when you were alive, and I will take some getting used to. It's worth it. For you this is Heaven. We have a busy schedule... college lecture and library time today, horseback riding tomorrow, hike in nature the next day, music concert the next, skiing and snorkeling...

Have a cigar, Bill,"

"But I don't smoke", I replied.

The old man looked at me and said, "What do you think -- that you will get cancer from it? You are already dead!"

If even the smokes are safe, this must be a very different planet.

What about those who did not believe in an afterlife but had an experience that made them think otherwise? For instance, i never believed in ghosts, till i started to experience things i had no other explanation for and trust me, i really tried. Perceptions can change. But i totally understand also what you are saying. Many do fit it to confirm their beliefs.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#4
(05-27-2016, 11:29 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(05-27-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote: http://anonhq.com/empirical-evidence-res...ife-death/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/67...king-study

Thoughts?

I have seen claims that

(1) images of the beginning of the Afterlife (a bright light at the end of a tunnel) are normal for a body shutting down. This is a physical reality and no mystical experience. Some drugs (I believe ketamine) give such an experience.

(2) images of the Afterlife fit the cultural values of the person. Christians find themselves meeting Jesus -- not Mohamed, the Buddha, or the gods of the Greek or Norse pantheon.

...Almost nobody goes back from the Afterlife and changes his religious beliefs to fit what he saw. People may change their behavior to better fit some orthodoxy, but that is very different from a conversion.  People are more likely to have their beliefs strengthened  -- not shaken. I have yet to hear anyone come back saying "I went to a concert hall and heard Artur Rubinstein play Mozart's 33rd piano concerto" (Mozart wrote 28 piano concertos in This World) or "I got to sample a mature literary work of Anne Frank" (we all know what happened to her in This World).

If Heaven is so wonderful there would of course be few returns. But people would be more likely to return from Hell. If the Afterlife put me in something resembling a Gulag, then I would want out... fast!

I could probably write a fictional short story about Heaven.

I was a bit short of cash, so I chose to avoid the Ohio Turnpike by using US 20. Traffic is light on 20, and the Turnpike is about as dull a drive as there is. I'd probably go back by night; the true beauty of the Turnpike is best appreciated in darkness, when there's nothing to see, anyway. But this time there was one too many drivers on US 20, a drunk driver. He practically fell asleep at the wheel at 11 AM, got awakened by the grooves at the edge of the pavement, over-corrected, and spun out of control at 60 mph. I couldn't stop fast enough.

I had my seat belt on, which saved me from a quick death. I pulled the keys from the ignition, unbuckled my seat belt, opened the door, got out, closed the door, pulled out my cell phone to call the police, and went to examine the accident scene. The driver of the other car was already dead. I could see the broken whisky bottle in his lap.

I examined my car. It looked like a total loss. I felt horrible; I was weakening quickly due not to the realization that I would have to replace the car, but instead because I had internal injuries that were going to take me down. As the county sheriff approached I collapsed.

The end? No. The Beginning! I boarded some semblance of a vehicle. It resembled the bus in the movie It Happened One Night, or that stretch of train trip I had in Colorado (with the German and Brazilian exchange students) once I got in, more for the conversations than for the technology and appointments of the vehicle. Most were old people, but there were some others -- but not the fellow who had careened into my car. Some clenched their rosaries, a couple read from the Koran, and... well, I had a copy of Why I am Not a Christian (Bertrand Russell). That was now out of sight and out of mind. It was a good trip, and I didn't have to look outside. People seemed good enough. Bus? Aircraft? Space ship? Boat? It did not matter then.

We disembarked on a different planet. In a way it resembled San Francisco -- tropical in vegetation, but on the chilly side. That was reassuring. I don't have much time to discuss the scenery here, except to say that it is spectacular. We met a friendly old fellow who greeted us.

"Everything that you think you know about me is completely wrong. You could never understand me when you were alive, and I will take some getting used to. It's worth it. For you this is Heaven. We have a busy schedule... college lecture and library time today, horseback riding tomorrow, hike in nature the next day, music concert the next, skiing and snorkeling...

Have a cigar, Bill,"

"But I don't smoke", I replied.

The old man looked at me and said, "What do you think -- that you will get cancer from it? You are already dead!"

If even the smokes are safe, this must be a very different planet.

I personally do not believe in a heaven or hell. Being an atheist probably has something to do with it. But since childhood explaining the afterlife has raised some questions for me. I have discovered that i am a "sensitive." Look to Amy Allen for reference. Since childhood i have seen things physical and non physical that i cannot explain away rationally which causes me to pause when other atheists say there is nothing after death. I have experienced something to the contrary that i cannot explain. So things like this interest me. I dismiss it when there is anything that says there is a specific place called heaven or hell as I think that may be a personalized place for each individual. We each have our own peace and war so I believe it is more of an individualized torment or peace especially from what i have seen. All that said I find what people think about on this issue very interesting as we all have our own interpretation of what being dead means to us. Some believe there is nothing and there is a scientific explanation for it. I am in-between that camp and Eric's camp. Reason being, I try to explain things through science. But it fails me with this at the moment anyway. But I know what I have experienced and try to explain it. Which leaves me in the middle on this topic. I have gone through too much to not believe in some sort of existence beyond this life. If I had not gone through it, I would be very much like you on this.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#5
Heaven and Hell exist in the human mind because they are useful. For some religious people Heaven is a reward for the right faith while living an otherwise-unobjectionable life, and Hell is a punishment for evil-doing or having none or the wrong faith. Heaven and Hell could be ways of righting wrongs in This World; thus someone wrongly convicted and executed might get real justice in the Hereafter, and someone who gets extremely rich through the Slave Trade finds himself trapped forever in the hold of a slave ship.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
#6
(05-27-2016, 04:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Heaven and Hell exist in the human mind because they are useful. For some religious people Heaven is a reward for the right faith while living an otherwise-unobjectionable life, and Hell is a punishment for evil-doing or having none or the wrong faith. Heaven and Hell could be ways of righting wrongs in This World; thus someone wrongly convicted and executed might get real justice in the Hereafter, and someone who gets extremely rich through the Slave Trade finds himself trapped forever in the hold of a slave ship.

It is a human condition as well as historically a way to control people. Yes, I know. Heaven and hell were not actually my intention of discussing an afterlife as it does not need to exist for there to be one. Both are creations from people as well as a way of interpreting a very individualized human condition which depends on how we view situations we are placed in. What i am interested in is what does happen after death.  Some will think there is a heaven or hell. I think that is bs as that is not what i have seen so far. They are among us and all are very different.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#7
I have heard and read many reports from people who have come back from the Afterlife; usually within hours or days though. It's too late to return to the body after a certain point. Even those who have come back and brought it back to life have come back to life to a degree one wouldn't expect. But those who come back frequently report that their view on life has changed. A number of them have become new age authors and spiritual leaders. Others report greater compassion. Some speak of it in traditional Christian terms, such as those on Pat Robertson's show. But the main conversion is from materialism to spiritualism, regardless of a particular religion they may or may not have believed in.

There is no need to have these reports and beliefs conflict with science, since experiments can be done-- and have been. But it does conflict with pre-conceived materialist BELIEFS that there is no afterlife. I guess I am in the afterlife camp, but only because the personal experience reports and science experiments seem credible, and because I do not have preconceived materialist beliefs.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#8
(05-27-2016, 05:36 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I have heard and read many reports from people who have come back from the Afterlife; usually within hours or days though. It's too late to return to the body after a certain point. Even those who have come back and brought it back to life have come back to life to a degree one wouldn't expect. But those who come back frequently report that their view on life has changed. A number of them have become new age authors and spiritual leaders. Others report greater compassion. Some speak of it in traditional Christian terms, such as those on Pat Robertson's show. But the main conversion is from materialism to spiritualism, regardless of a particular religion they may or may not have believed in.

There is no need to have these reports and beliefs conflict with science, since experiments can be done-- and have been. But it does conflict with pre-conceived materialist BELIEFS that there is no afterlife. I guess I am in the afterlife camp, but only because the personal experience reports and science experiments seem credible, and because I do not have preconceived materialist beliefs.
Science helps to understand the world around us. I explain it as an energy mass with memory. People ask me if I see them like the boy does in the sixth sense. I tell them that is a movie made for dramatic effect. I have yet to see one that looks damaged. That is the body that is damaged. Not their energy. I do not understand why some people cannot see, hear or feel that they are there. As for materialism, I do not understand why you seem to be on a crusade against it. Live and let live. They exist as do you and those of us in-between also. I understand completely why some would not believe. I mean, if you do not see an afterlife and someone explains it away it is like a fantasy. Given my experience with it...i wish it were. Some of my experiences I could have done without. Some are very much able to affect their surroundings and attack people. THAT I would love an explanation for. How does energy leave scratches, hand marks, turn handles, turn on lights and open doors when it at the same time can walk through walls? (Yes, i have seen this. Only once but still). For those who do not believe, the reason i call them ghosts is because they are in the shape of people. They behave like people. My first incident my future attacker spoke to me in a deep voice. He sounded desperate and angry. It was only later when we were looking at the lease we were to learn of a woman who died in this house...(another ghost) a woman who i had also seen previously who wore an outfit that fit that period she died in. I would wake up with large hand marks on my back, scratches, doors opening, kitchen floods and more all which i cannot explain. Science fails me on this topic. I may be materialistic in some ways. It is rational to believe in it somewhat at least. But there are other things it has yet to explain as i suppose it conflicts with its current beliefs. Something that i have seen many times throughout my life which helps me to know better at least in this regard. For me, seeing, hearing and feeling (my attacker's wounds) is believing. But it does leave open many unanswered questions. I will get people thinking I am crazy. It will not be the first time and certainly not the last. But to those people, I envy them. They have not been in my shoes to understand what I have seen and experienced. I wish I were them.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#9
(05-27-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote: http://anonhq.com/empirical-evidence-res...ife-death/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/67...king-study

Thoughts?

None of this confirms an afterlife. All it confirms is that a dying brain, or a brain thinks it is dying undergoes certain hallucinations. All of the states indicated can result from being revived from cardiac arrest, but could just as easily be experienced through taking drugs or through an epileptic seizure.

Out of body experiences are reported frequently by epileptics. Seeing these bright light tunnels and so forth have also been induced through drugs.
It really is all mathematics.

Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism.
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#10
(05-29-2016, 09:58 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-27-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote: http://anonhq.com/empirical-evidence-res...ife-death/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/67...king-study

Thoughts?

None of this confirms an afterlife.  All it confirms is that a dying brain, or a brain thinks it is dying undergoes certain hallucinations.  All of the states indicated can result from being revived from cardiac arrest, but could just as easily be experienced through taking drugs or through an epileptic seizure.

Out of body experiences are reported frequently by epileptics.  Seeing these bright light tunnels and so forth have also been induced through drugs.

Yes, that was my initial thought and still is although I do find the stories to be rather interesting and I do wonder if there are other things to explore given my experiences also.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#11
(05-30-2016, 04:03 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-29-2016, 09:58 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-27-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote: http://anonhq.com/empirical-evidence-res...ife-death/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/67...king-study

Thoughts?

None of this confirms an afterlife.  All it confirms is that a dying brain, or a brain thinks it is dying undergoes certain hallucinations.  All of the states indicated can result from being revived from cardiac arrest, but could just as easily be experienced through taking drugs or through an epileptic seizure.

Out of body experiences are reported frequently by epileptics.  Seeing these bright light tunnels and so forth have also been induced through drugs.

Yes, that was my initial thought and still is although I do find the stories to be rather interesting and I do wonder if there are other things to explore given my experiences also.

You may find the work of one Ian Stevenson to be of some interest.  Even he was not certain of the causes of what he was observing.  As Hayek might say, "Beware of the pretense of knowledge."
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#12
(05-30-2016, 05:05 AM)Galen Wrote:
(05-30-2016, 04:03 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-29-2016, 09:58 AM)Kinser79 Wrote:
(05-27-2016, 12:52 AM)taramarie Wrote: http://anonhq.com/empirical-evidence-res...ife-death/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/67...king-study

Thoughts?

None of this confirms an afterlife.  All it confirms is that a dying brain, or a brain thinks it is dying undergoes certain hallucinations.  All of the states indicated can result from being revived from cardiac arrest, but could just as easily be experienced through taking drugs or through an epileptic seizure.

Out of body experiences are reported frequently by epileptics.  Seeing these bright light tunnels and so forth have also been induced through drugs.

Yes, that was my initial thought and still is although I do find the stories to be rather interesting and I do wonder if there are other things to explore given my experiences also.

You may find the work of one Ian Stevenson to be of some interest.  Even he was not certain of the causes of what he was observing.  As Hayek might say, "Beware of the pretense of knowledge."

Thank you. I will check him out tomorrow after work. Off to bed after a double shift. I agree with him already. I will seek many sources. Not just what science only currently knows.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#13
(05-30-2016, 05:09 AM)taramarie Wrote: Thank you. I will check him out tomorrow after work. Off to bed after a double shift. I agree with him already. I will seek many sources. Not just what science only currently knows.

Just remember that psychology, in particular, has trouble with replicating results.  The field of economics has the same problems which is why the Austrian economists choose the methods of Mises and Rothbard.  They get better results that everyone else but they still are doing research, which is the main reason why the Mises Institute exists.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
Reply
#14
(05-27-2016, 05:26 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(05-27-2016, 04:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Heaven and Hell exist in the human mind because they are useful. For some religious people Heaven is a reward for the right faith while living an otherwise-unobjectionable life, and Hell is a punishment for evil-doing or having none or the wrong faith. Heaven and Hell could be ways of righting wrongs in This World; thus someone wrongly convicted and executed might get real justice in the Hereafter, and someone who gets extremely rich through the Slave Trade finds himself trapped forever in the hold of a slave ship.

It is a human condition as well as historically a way to control people. Yes, I know. Heaven and hell were not actually my intention of discussing an afterlife as it does not need to exist for there to be one. Both are creations from people as well as a way of interpreting a very individualized human condition which depends on how we view situations we are placed in. What i am interested in is what does happen after death.  Some will think there is a heaven or hell. I think that is bs as that is not what i have seen so far. They are among us and all are very different.

Indeed anyone can establish a moral code and claim a monopoly hold on the Afterlife, and very often offer access to a wonderful Afterlife only on terms of destructive self-sacrifice on behalf of those who control the access, and Hell for any shortcoming in servitude. So work as hard as possible, slave, and demand nothing in return, so that God will reward you for your sufferings on behalf of your earthly master.

Of course such is cruel and exploitative. But few economic elites have been anything other than cruel and exploitative.

I look at the commandment "Thou shalt not steal", and as a corollary I also see "Thou shalt not exploit". I see the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" and see the corollary "Thou shalt not put others in undue risk of pointless death".

Man has done far better at creating Hell than at creating Heaven on Earth.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
#15
(05-31-2016, 12:29 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I would say that extremes of state control, and extremes of laissez faire, suck the life out of the people. There's another word for laissez faire, and that is neglect. Just what the authors of T4T described as the problem with third turnings, and which leads into the crisis. Just what we experienced the last 35 years. No, it never works; the verdict of history is clear. Neither extreme works

For someone who most likely believes in evolution it is strange that you have such trouble with the concept of self organizing systems.  Economies are not machines but rather more like an ecosystem in this respect.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
Reply
#16
(06-01-2016, 01:49 AM)taramarie Wrote: Hahaha how did this morph from a talk about life after death to the economy? Oh you guys crack me up. Keeps me ever interested!

What I described is common to all of what is called the soft sciences.  You have to understand that the progressive and modern liberal viewpoint is very mechanistic.  This works in the modern realm of physics and engineering but fails in psychology and economics.  Consider what it means if Mises and Rothbard are in fact correct as I believe they are.  It means that the world of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries is build on a false foundation.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
Reply
#17
(06-01-2016, 03:28 AM)Galen Wrote:
(06-01-2016, 01:49 AM)taramarie Wrote: Hahaha how did this morph from a talk about life after death to the economy? Oh you guys crack me up. Keeps me ever interested!

What I described is common to all of what is called the soft sciences.  You have to understand that the progressive and modern liberal viewpoint is very mechanistic.  This works in the modern realm of physics and engineering but fails in psychology and economics.  Consider what it means if Mises and Rothbard are in fact correct as I believe they are.  It means that the world of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries is build on a false foundation.

So what is the false foundation that they point to?
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#18
(06-01-2016, 04:13 AM)Galen Wrote:
(06-01-2016, 03:31 AM)taramarie Wrote:
(06-01-2016, 03:28 AM)Galen Wrote:
(06-01-2016, 01:49 AM)taramarie Wrote: Hahaha how did this morph from a talk about life after death to the economy? Oh you guys crack me up. Keeps me ever interested!

What I described is common to all of what is called the soft sciences.  You have to understand that the progressive and modern liberal viewpoint is very mechanistic.  This works in the modern realm of physics and engineering but fails in psychology and economics.  Consider what it means if Mises and Rothbard are in fact correct as I believe they are.  It means that the world of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries is build on a false foundation.

So what is the false foundation that they point to?
 
Read Mises yourself and decide.  I will admit that his Economic Calculation in a Socialist Commonwealth can be a bit difficult for someone educated nearly a century after it was written but it is clear.  Perhaps Robert Heinlein can be of some help consider the following quotes:

Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How's that again? I missed something. Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again too. Who decides?


Is the answer to either question correct?  Perhaps they are both wrong?  You will have to decide.  This much I can tell you:  Only through uncertainty can understanding come.  Eric the Obtuse, Playdud and pbrower are certain that they know what is best for everyone.  Are you that certain?

I once asked Eric the Obtuse if he was willing to kill in order to make me do what he wants? He has always avoided answering that question because he knows the answer and can't admit the truth.

Ok so I take it he is talking about the collective mindset? I was always taught to value teamwork. To trust in the team and that we can help each other. However, if we look through history that mind set without thinking outside the team mind set can be very dangerous. So, it can be valuable in time of need to get things done, but we do need independent thinkers to correct for errors we make as nothing can be perfect. It really depends on the situation. Both very necessary, but both clash when things need to be sorted in 4T's. Sometimes it is wiser to band with a million to fix issues BUT we need to do our own research to be sure it is the right thing to do. To have an educated opinion and a wise path to a solution for that million to sort out together.

As to Eric, he seems to be a pacifist due to his hatred of guns but then again he would not be the one to do the killing or be killed....we know which generation/s would be the ones to die for an ideal.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#19
(06-02-2016, 12:59 AM)Galen Wrote:
(06-01-2016, 02:25 PM)taramarie Wrote: I am sure that was not the point. I have not read their work but it sounds like what is being hinted at is the people having more power. He also did mention the foundation of society is built on lies. So mentioning what goes on in the workplace would not apply to this as it sounds like they are trying to open minds to the errors of society. But Galen would know more about this of course. I am merely just learning about it from him. But that is what I am getting from it anyway.

The state claims a monopoly on the use of violence to enforce its edicts and to fund itself.  If an individual without the proper costume did this then everyone here would recognize that person as a criminal.  This is the the fundamental truth that almost everyone ignores.

(06-01-2016, 02:25 PM)taramarie Wrote: I think for Eric he would never intentionally kill anyone. He is anti-gun. But we do not need to do that to set history in motion to kill anyone. We can do it through a vote. No, not saying this applies to Eric. This can apply to either side. It just depends on what a party's policies are, who gets the short end of the stick and who they piss off internationally or nationally in some cases through history.

Eric the Obtuse sees the state as a convenient way to steal for him.  He gets to avoid the nasty violent bits and claim that he did not commit any violence himself.  Sadly, this attitude is very common among people regardless of political party.  At least a real thief, or freelance socialist helping themselves to a share of the wealth, has enough spine to the deed themselves.

Oh I am well aware that those with the most power (those with authority and money) get away with practically anything. The little guy would not however. Surprised that you say that most ignore this. Even I know that. As to Eric I do not pay enough attention to what policies he stands for to have a say on the matter. I merely keep an open mind and analyze for what would work best. I listen to both sides. Which is why I have decided to go center (NZ First). Our left wing has heart but irrational letting refugees in and having us pay for their shelter, car etc (things we work our arses off and still cannot afford...us younger folk anyway) and our right wing is selling off nz to foreign buyers (our land, our water, our sheep etc) and making things harder on the poorest of the poor what with prices for houses going up which is apparently connected to National being pro immigration which means poor kiwis cannot even think of leaving their parents to buy a home of their own....and our National (right wing prime minister denies it!) despite the fact so many are living in their car! Both are damaging to us in the long run so far as i can see. I am all for helping people to stand on their own feet, not crushing them and for building a stable economy. So it puts me in-between. I know Eric is a "green" lefty whatever American lefties stand for. I hear bits and pieces. I also know he is anti gun. Something I am also an in-between on also.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#20
Actually, as I showed in the philosophy thread on the old forum (still available in the archive), science CAN prove the afterlife. It may not prove it to the satisfaction of those determined to hang on to their old way of seeing things; they can try to explain it away. Proving it does mean more than just proving that some consciousness continues in a dying brain, I am sure. But there is other research that goes beyond this. It's all referred to in the archive, and those who read the thread will remember.

I find it interesting that Galen, in his all-consuming interest in libertarian economics, says that liberalism in the 20th century is based on the mechanistic worldview. He wrote, "What I described is common to all of what is called the soft sciences. You have to understand that the progressive and modern liberal viewpoint is very mechanistic. This works in the modern realm of physics and engineering but fails in psychology and economics. Consider what it means if Mises and Rothbard are in fact correct as I believe they are. It means that the world of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries is build on a false foundation."

If mechanistic reductionism fails in the realm of psychology, then it can't explain things like ghosts or the afterlife. I wonder what worldview Galen considers a firm foundation for civilization. In the 20th century, the mechanistic worldview became the default one for educated people, as Sheldrake explained. In the red/blue split, most liberals subscribe to this default, mechanistic worldview, as opposed to the right-wing Christian one that conservatives generally uphold. But mechanism really belongs to the previous era, the Renaissance-Enlightenment era that culminated in Darwinism and the atomic, materialist theories. The predominant worldview that preceded it, apart from some romantic hybrids like Goethe, was the Traditional Christian one. Radind adhers to it, but I am not aware that Galen does, or that he supports the religious right.

Of course the Medieval Christian worldview was not quite the same as the bastardized, fundamentalist Protestant one that emerged in the 20th century and now dominates the religious right-wing in the USA. It was more subtle and complicated than that, and included many elements from the blend of esoteric hermeticism and ancient Greek philosophy that was bequeathed to it by the ancient world. The medieval world view understood symbolism, while literal, Biblical worldviews do not at all.

The 20th century was also the time when many intellectuals and some physicists rejected the mechanistic worldview and went off in a new direction called the New Paradigm. This was especially true in Europe in the early 20th century, and affected the USA since the sixties in the hippie counter-culture and new age/human potential movements. Gen Xers like Galen in their compulsive rejection of everything "boomer" have cut themselves off from this new tradition, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. But this New Paradigm worldview is certainly open to the afterlife, and does the opposite of reducing knowledge to engineering and the hard sciences, as though they could understand the psyche and the soul.

Some new agers are libertarians, I know. But most are not rigid conservatives of one stripe or another, but liberals who see the potential in humans to liberate themselves from enslaving worldviews and work together to build a new civilization that works well for all, and not just for a few as libertarian economics advocates.

So taramarie, indeed everything ties in together with everything else, and so Americans obsessed with politics and economics have always an opening to turn any subject in their preferred direction.

The counter-culture, just like the libertarians, were at first very utopian, since we know the potential in human beings to be free. Ideally no state with the power to enforce laws by force would be needed in this utopia. The difference between libertarians and new agers/counter-culturalists is the difference in their goals. Libertarian economists want to tear down the state first, in the belief that the state is the problem and humans will rise to their potential automatically without it. This destruction of the state enables libertarians like the Koch Brothers to evade the needs of society, lower their own taxes and regulations, and thus boost their own power and wealth. New Agers on the contrary see that the "problem" is within us, similar to what Buddha and real (mystical) Christians taught, and that spiritual liberation is what will eventually lead us toward needing less and less state power to physically enforce laws. In the leftist Green Party, the new age politics, decisions are made by consensus as much as possible, as opposed to simple majority rule enforced on the minority.

It is this new age view that also opens up research into the afterlife, because the foundation for the new civilization leads beyond mechanistic worldviews toward the spiritual worldview, in which human beings are primarily spirits and not just visible and tangible bodies.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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