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Debate about Gun Control
(06-09-2017, 06:04 AM)Odin Wrote:
(06-09-2017, 05:25 AM)taramarie Wrote: I see why people call you a troll. And no it was not me who said it. But I see now why they called you it. I will not name the people either.

"Old Man Yells At Cloud"  Big Grin

LMAO! Love it! Hahahaaha! Big Grin
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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I've been considering starting a 'Spiral of Violence' thread.  This thread is beginning to share many of the themes.

We have had another incident.  A gunman opened up on a Republican congressional baseball team.  There were enough capitol cops present to prevent significant casualties.

In watching the spiral of violence, there are two extreme possible reactions.  If the bulk of the people say there was a lone nut, emotionally unstable, acting deplorably, the incident can be diminished in coverage and impact by main street and perhaps both partisan institutions and press.  The establishment has no great desire for a true spiral of violence.  Sure, you will even hear call for arms prohibition.

If one sees the Republican Congress as champions of the Reagan unraveling memes as deplorable enemies of the country and the world, the baseball team becomes an ideal target for a true patriot willing to sacrifice himself for a critical cause.

Thus far, the 'lone nut' concept continues to dominate over the 'patriot' concept in most media and official outlets.  The spiral of violence might not escalate and go ballistic so long as that mode of coverage dominates.

For me, though, I don't doubt that many of the shooters are thinking of the themselves as patriots.  Of course, at this point in the turnings, at this level of the spiral of violence, the line between 'lone nut' and 'patriot' might seem very contentious and unclear.

I don't delve too deeply in the extreme partisan media outlets.  Is anyone pushing for violence?  Is anyone bypassing the lone nut style of covering violence in favor of pushing it?   "Here is a patriot.  Let us follow his lead.  Let us not ignore our duty."

Thomas Jefferson Wrote:The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
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So far, no patriots per se; but Dylann Roof conceived of his attack as an attempt to start a race war. The Orlando shooting was justified by allegiance to the Islamic State.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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(06-14-2017, 09:21 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: So far, no patriots per se; but Dylann Roof conceived of his attack as an attempt to start a race war. The Orlando shooting was justified by allegiance to the Islamic State.

That might not be a bad example.  If one sees flaws in a western or Marxist government, how greedy evil individuals can come to dominate a culture or government, and one sees Islam and/or ISIS as the comparatively pure will of Allah alternative, you can see how those impoverished and dominated could see such young men as heroes and patriots.

Now, I see Orlando as counterproductive to foolhardy.  I'd easily throw around a label like 'lone nut' in Roof's case.  If one shifts focus, though, one can easily find a member of an oppressed culture trying to fight back using the only means available.  Overt conventional warfare is no way to take on the West.  Conflict becomes a contest in escalating terror.  Being very good at conventional warfare is apt to build opposing cultures favoring terror tactics.  That's part of why the Middle East is falling apart, part of why we are seeing terror used as a tactic against the West.

A lot of the time, it seems like something must be done, so one has to do what has to be done.  Flip the coin, though, and you see lone nuts abandoning morality for futile gestures.

Yes, I'm contradicting myself again.  I find it too easy to find reasons behind cultures developing as they have.
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It looks as if a lone nut took a pot-shot at Representative Steve Scalise (R-LA).
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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(06-14-2017, 10:16 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: It looks as if a lone nut took a pot-shot at Representative Steve Scalise (R-LA).

I'm reading from the WaPo that the shooter was a "Bernie Bro" who wanted to kill Republicans. It is frightening to think what the response over time may be -- heightened security to the point where we're living in a police state?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/201...9ea54b4681

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/201...9ea54b4681
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Here's an indication of what the shooter believed about Representative Steve Scalise:

[Image: facebookpost.png]

This would be enough to suggest a charge of Attempted First-Degree Murder, as it shows a motive. I've said some nasty things about my district's elected stooge of every imaginable corporate lobbyist. (He is exactly that, and I want to see him defeated in 2018). Even if Rep. Scalise were a KKK fascist he would not deserve to be shot.

Here's hoping for a recovery of Representative Scalise from his wounds, no matter how much I hold his politics in contempt. .
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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(06-14-2017, 01:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Here's an indication of what the shooter believed about Representative Steve Scalise:

[Image: facebookpost.png]

This would be enough to suggest a charge of Attempted First-Degree Murder, as it shows a motive. I've said some nasty things about my district's elected stooge of every imaginable corporate lobbyist. (He is exactly that, and I want to see him defeated in 2018). Even if Rep. Scalise were a KKK fascist he would not deserve to be shot.

Here's hoping for a recovery of Representative Scalise from his wounds, no matter how much I hold his politics in contempt. .

Yes, political violence is dangerous to both sides, and to our republic. Sorry to see Rep. Scalise injured.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
James T. Hodgkinson died of his wounds from being shot by the police, so there won't be any case against him.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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(06-14-2017, 04:22 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(06-14-2017, 01:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Here's an indication of what the shooter believed about Representative Steve Scalise:

This would be enough to suggest a charge of Attempted First-Degree Murder, as it shows a motive. I've said some nasty things about my district's elected stooge of every imaginable corporate lobbyist. (He is exactly that, and I want to see him defeated in 2018). Even if Rep. Scalise were a KKK fascist he would not deserve to be shot.

Here's hoping for a recovery of Representative Scalise from his wounds, no matter how much I hold his politics in contempt. .
 
I have to lay some blame on Trump and his Duginists. They are such assholes, they are really riling people up, especially the Far Left. They are giving all Republicans and even Independent Conservatives a bad name. And guess what. It's all completely according to plan. A house divided will fall, and the Anti Western fiends want our house to fall.

We had a Bernie bot go off the rails with a knife.  I have always found the left on the whole to be more ready to use violence.  Other than the KKK, which probably has more FBI informants than actual members, and some other fringe groups that are very small.  The conservatives really don't have anything that corresponds to Antifa.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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(06-14-2017, 09:13 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I've been considering starting a 'Spiral of Violence' thread.  This thread is beginning to share many of the themes.

We have had another incident.  A gunman opened up on a Republican congressional baseball team.  There were enough capitol cops present to prevent significant casualties.

In watching the spiral of violence, there are two extreme possible reactions.  If the bulk of the people say there was a lone nut, emotionally unstable, acting deplorably, the incident can be diminished in coverage and impact by main street and perhaps both partisan institutions and press.  The establishment has no great desire for a true spiral of violence.  Sure, you will even hear call for arms prohibition.

If one sees the Republican  Congress as champions of the Reagan unraveling memes as deplorable enemies of the country and the world, the baseball team becomes an ideal target for a true patriot willing to sacrifice himself for a critical cause.

Thus far, the 'lone nut' concept continues to dominate over the 'patriot' concept in most media and official outlets.  The spiral of violence might not escalate and go ballistic so long as that mode of coverage dominates.

For me, though, I don't doubt that many of the shooters are thinking of the themselves as patriots.  Of course, at this point in the turnings, at this level of the spiral of violence, the line between 'lone nut' and 'patriot' might seem very contentious and unclear.

I don't delve too deeply in the extreme partisan media outlets.  Is anyone pushing for violence?  Is anyone bypassing the lone nut style of covering violence in favor of pushing it?   "Here is a patriot.  Let us follow his lead.  Let us not ignore our duty."

Thomas Jefferson Wrote:The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

We have become a tinderbox waiting to blow. If a right-winger shoots "libs" in retaliation for yesterday's act this country is going to go up in flames, we will have our Bleeding Kansas.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(06-15-2017, 02:42 AM)Galen Wrote:
(06-14-2017, 04:22 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(06-14-2017, 01:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Here's an indication of what the shooter believed about Representative Steve Scalise:

This would be enough to suggest a charge of Attempted First-Degree Murder, as it shows a motive. I've said some nasty things about my district's elected stooge of every imaginable corporate lobbyist. (He is exactly that, and I want to see him defeated in 2018). Even if Rep. Scalise were a KKK fascist he would not deserve to be shot.

Here's hoping for a recovery of Representative Scalise from his wounds, no matter how much I hold his politics in contempt. .
 
I have to lay some blame on Trump and his Duginists. They are such assholes, they are really riling people up, especially the Far Left. They are giving all Republicans and even Independent Conservatives a bad name. And guess what. It's all completely according to plan. A house divided will fall, and the Anti Western fiends want our house to fall.

We had a Bernie bot go off the rails with a knife.  I have always found the left on the whole to be more ready to use violence.  Other than the KKK, which probably has more FBI informants than actual members, and some other fringe groups that are very small.  The conservatives really don't have anything that corresponds to Antifa.

Oh look, more proof you are nothing but a stupid hack, pushing the "Portland terrorist was a leftist" lie. Rolleyes
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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It was inevitable that the right wing mouthpieces like Michael Savage would blame Sen. Sanders for speaking what we on the left consider the truth, for the attack on Rep. Scalise.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/us/po....html?_r=0

I consider that it is the policies that the right-wing promote and enact, policies represented here by Galen, that are to blame for the hostile atmosphere which Republicans face today. No-one can reasonably expect the rhetoric to be toned down in the face of such horrible attacks on our lives by Republicans today. The truth can be bitter and hard to swallow, and people need to be motivated to act against the right-wing policies-- in legal and democratic ways.

I hold the shooter responsible for his actions. They were an attack on democracy. I pray for Rep. Scalise' recovery. And the Tyson lobbyist too. It's reasonable to say that people need to keep their hostility in check. Respect is due to all persons, although criminals must be stopped. However, to use this shooting as an excuse for people on the left to stop telling the truth, is not going to fly. Nor is it an excuse for people on the right to ignore the violence and threats that have come from their side too.

Nuts come in all political flavors. The Left has its share. Both sides need to restrain their nuts, and be as respectful as we can toward all during this difficult 4T era, which is likely to get more difficult, seeing as we have intractible problems and nothing lasting has been done to address them yet in 9 years and counting of fourth turning crisis.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
(06-15-2017, 06:34 AM)Odin Wrote: We have become a tinderbox waiting to blow. If a right-winger shoots "libs" in retaliation for yesterday's act this country is going to go up in flames, we will have our Bleeding Kansas.

Bleeding Kansas featured organized groups.  We're still closer to the point where it can be blamed on lone nuts.  While I won't lightly dismiss the notion of a spiral of violence going critical, we're far more than one incident away.
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(06-15-2017, 09:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It was inevitable that the right wing mouthpieces like Michael Savage would blame Sen. Sanders for speaking what we on the left consider the truth, for the attack on Rep. Scalise.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/us/po....html?_r=0

I consider that it is the policies that the right-wing promote and enact, policies represented here by Galen, that are to blame for the hostile atmosphere which Republicans face today. No-one can reasonably expect the rhetoric to be toned down in the face of such horrible attacks on our lives by Republicans today. The truth can be bitter and hard to swallow, and people need to be motivated to act against the right-wing policies-- in legal and democratic ways.

I hold the shooter responsible for his actions. They were an attack on democracy. I pray for Rep. Scalise' recovery. And the Tyson lobbyist too. It's reasonable to say that people need to keep their hostility in check. Respect is due to all persons, although criminals must be stopped. However, to use this shooting as an excuse for people on the left to stop telling the truth, is not going to fly. Nor is it an excuse for people on the right to ignore the violence and threats that have come from their side too.

Nuts come in all political flavors. The Left has its share. Both sides need to restrain their nuts, and be as respectful as we can toward all during this difficult 4T era, which is likely to get more difficult, seeing as we have intractible problems and nothing lasting has been done to address them yet in 9 years and counting of fourth turning crisis.

Right-wing politics in the US are a cult, people like Galen and Kinser are completely brainwashed.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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This IS really the "spiral of violence" thread right now. That's OK Wink
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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(06-16-2017, 10:41 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: This IS really the "spiral of violence" thread right now. That's OK Wink

Looks like one answer is for the sane, quiet, reasonable peace loving moderates to shoot the extremists.  Wink
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(06-16-2017, 01:33 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(06-16-2017, 10:41 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: This IS really the "spiral of violence" thread right now. That's OK Wink

Looks like one answer is for the sane, quiet, reasonable peace loving moderates to shoot the extremists.  Wink

That sounds like what Mr. X 84 is saying. He's got his weapons ready Smile
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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They are *still* talking about that shooting at the baseball field. What is the big deal? These things happen all the time.

There was another one the same day, another two days after than and then again yesterday:

Saturday: http://www.10tv.com/article/police-ident...-nightclub
Thursday: https://www.abqjournal.com/1018851/death...spree.html
Same day: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lates...s-48036675

We average more than three of these a week,
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(06-18-2017, 11:33 AM)Mikebert Wrote: They are *still* talking about that shooting at the baseball field.  What is the big deal? These things happen all the time.

There was another one the same day, another two days after than and then again yesterday:

Saturday: http://www.10tv.com/article/police-ident...-nightclub
Thursday: https://www.abqjournal.com/1018851/death...spree.html
Same day: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lates...s-48036675

We average more than three of these a week,

I agree, but who are we?  This one gets noticed because it's in one of our media capitals and it involves a celebrity of sorts.  There is also some irony here, and the media loves that.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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