Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
2T Vs. 3T pop culture
#61
I'm not going to argue with with Taramarie. You are free to think anything you wish about me.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#62
(07-01-2016, 11:33 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm not going to argue with with Taramarie. You are free to think anything you wish about me.

I go by what i see repetitively in your comments. If i saw evidence to the contrary i would mention that too. I like that you are open to other music and new music. Not all older folk are. You are open minded to the supernatural....not sure if from experience like me and i am grateful for that as some are totally closed off to it. For good reason sometimes also due to not experiencing it. You are calm where i am hot headed. Hey look i can admit my flaws but that is the difference between us. One of the differences anyway.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#63
(07-01-2016, 02:58 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(07-01-2016, 11:33 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm not going to argue with with Taramarie. You are free to think anything you wish about me.

I go by what i see repetitively in your comments. If i saw evidence to the contrary i would mention that too. I like that you are open to other music and new music. Not all older folk are. You are open minded to the supernatural....not sure if from experience like me and i am grateful for that as some are totally closed off to it. For good reason sometimes also due to not experiencing it. You are calm where i am hot headed. Hey look i can admit my flaws but that is the difference between us. One of the differences anyway.

That is a calmer post from you; good. Still inaccurate though. I do not "bash all 3T music." I have repeatedly mentioned the qualifications to my opinion. That means I think there is some good music (including even some good American pop music) created in the 3T period. Just that, as a whole, American 3T pop (circa 1985-2009) is not as good as in other periods. That is my opinion as a would-be music critic and as a writer and musician. I see evidence that the rest of the anglo-sphere as well as Europe and perhaps elsewhere produced better pop music in this period. How many of your 3T pop favorites come from outside the USA, or from New Zealand?

I am obviously not very good at communicating about music, or my preferences and opinions about it. And I have strong feelings about it. It is hard to communicate about something that is not describable in words. But I don't tell other people what to listen to, and it's great that you enjoy whatever music you enjoy. All music has a magic to it that can stir the soul, as John Sebastian and the Lovin' Spoonful said.

Remember, some of the best music ever created in my opinion was made by a man from New Zealand in the 3T years. You can see one example of his work in the best songs ever thread near the start when I was covering the 3T music that I liked.

In the 1963-73 period especially, and sometimes in the years just before and after, popular music went through a period where it strived to be artistic, and achieved it. Much attention was given to the instrumental arrangements, and expert studio musicians were employed. Songwriters started recording their own music. Poets like Bob Dylan had pop hits. Influences from folk music, classical music and world music came in, and the psychedelic culture added a strong mystical experience into the music that is not present in other periods. New instruments like the electric guitar and electronic organ were explored, and British rock bands roared to the top. Commercial radio stations were open to this music, and not purely focused on making money or concentrated in ownership monopolies. Professional DJs were genuinely interested in the music, and were allowed to choose it at times and make comments about it pro and con, and even announce what the songs were. These are the main reasons why the 2T popular music reached a peak of excellence that went away in the years that followed. Also, much of the pop music of those years was created by an artist generation, according to Strauss and Howe, and especially by the war baby/boomer cusp cohorts, which featured a visionary aspect between visionary planets in their horoscopes, the Uranus-Neptune trine, which has historically corresponded to times when groups of great artists are born.

Meanwhile though, in the 1970s mainstream AM pop music reverted to its usual commercial ways of appealing to the lowest common denominator of taste, and so we got bubble-gum music of the Donny Osmond school, which was followed in the mid 70s by the Disco Duck and other disco trifles. Even though I was still a young boomer, and this was boomer youth music, I did not like it. In the early 1970s the art rock shifted to FM radio stations that focused on this genre, called album-oriented rock. In the later 70s this field too declined and became more commercial. By the 80s the sensitive, visionary, psychedelic element in FM rock had mostly disappeared and left mainly the increasingly loud, brash, boisterous element. The New Wave was an interesting relief from disco and declining boomer rock, but it was not good enough in my experience to get me too involved in it.

Nor did I care much for a lot of the 1T pop that preceded the core 2T Awakening years, although I learned to like some of the tunes later as oldies but goodies. But I was already a young kid and a teenager in those years, and I did not listen to it just because my peers were listening to it. So contrary to what people might say, I did not choose my music based on my age at the time, or what I thought was cool that the other kids were listening to. Before and after the core 2T, I listened to classical music, and learned to play it too. I always listen to what I like, regardless of my age or what is fashionable.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#64
(07-08-2016, 11:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(07-01-2016, 02:58 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(07-01-2016, 11:33 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I'm not going to argue with with Taramarie. You are free to think anything you wish about me.

I go by what i see repetitively in your comments. If i saw evidence to the contrary i would mention that too. I like that you are open to other music and new music. Not all older folk are. You are open minded to the supernatural....not sure if from experience like me and i am grateful for that as some are totally closed off to it. For good reason sometimes also due to not experiencing it. You are calm where i am hot headed. Hey look i can admit my flaws but that is the difference between us. One of the differences anyway.

That is a calmer post from you; good. Still inaccurate though. I do not "bash all 3T music." I have repeatedly mentioned the qualifications to my opinion. That means I think there is some good music (including even some good American pop music) created in the 3T period. Just that, as a whole, American 3T pop (circa 1985-2009) is not as good as in other periods. That is my opinion as a would-be music critic and as a writer and musician. I see evidence that the rest of the anglo-sphere as well as Europe and perhaps elsewhere produced better pop music in this period. How many of your 3T pop favorites come from outside the USA, or from New Zealand?

I am obviously not very good at communicating about music, or my preferences and opinions about it. And I have strong feelings about it. It is hard to communicate about something that is not describable in words. But I don't tell other people what to listen to, and it's great that you enjoy whatever music you enjoy. All music has a magic to it that can stir the soul, as John Sebastian and the Lovin' Spoonful said.

Remember, some of the best music ever created in my opinion was made by a man from New Zealand in the 3T years. You can see one example of his work in the best songs ever thread near the start when I was covering the 3T music that I liked.

In the 1963-73 period especially, and sometimes in the years just before and after, popular music went through a period where it strived to be artistic, and achieved it. Much attention was given to the instrumental arrangements, and expert studio musicians were employed. Songwriters started recording their own music. Poets like Bob Dylan had pop hits. Influences from folk music, classical music and world music came in, and the psychedelic culture added a strong mystical experience into the music that is not present in other periods. New instruments like the electric guitar and electronic organ were explored, and British rock bands roared to the top. Commercial radio stations were open to this music, and not purely focused on making money or concentrated in ownership monopolies. Professional DJs were genuinely interested in the music, and were allowed to choose it at times and make comments about it pro and con, and even announce what the songs were. These are the main reasons why the 2T popular music reached a peak of excellence that went away in the years that followed. Also, much of the pop music of those years was created by an artist generation, according to Strauss and Howe, and especially by the war baby/boomer cusp cohorts, which featured a visionary aspect between visionary planets in their horoscopes, the Uranus-Neptune trine, which has historically corresponded to times when groups of great artists are born.

Meanwhile though, in the 1970s mainstream AM pop music reverted to its usual commercial ways of appealing to the lowest common denominator of taste, and so we got bubble-gum music of the Donny Osmond school, which was followed in the mid 70s by the Disco Duck and other disco trifles. Even though I was still a young boomer, and this was boomer youth music, I did not like it. In the early 1970s the art rock shifted to FM radio stations that focused on this genre, called album-oriented rock. In the later 70s this field too declined and became more commercial. By the 80s the sensitive, visionary, psychedelic element in FM rock had mostly disappeared and left mainly the increasingly loud, brash, boisterous element. The New Wave was an interesting relief from disco and declining boomer rock, but it was not good enough in my experience to get me too involved in it.

Nor did I care much for a lot of the 1T pop that preceded the core 2T Awakening years, although I learned to like some of the tunes later as oldies but goodies. But I was already a young kid and a teenager in those years, and I did not listen to it just because my peers were listening to it. So contrary to what people might say, I did not choose my music based on my age at the time, or what I thought was cool that the other kids were listening to. Before and after the core 2T, I listened to classical music, and learned to play it too. I always listen to what I like, regardless of my age or what is fashionable.
Many from England. A few from in NZ and then there is Roxette. I think they are Swedish. Enya would be another. She is Irish. This is off the top of my groggy head. I will post up foreign (to am American) music here when I am more alert. Just woke up. This will include kiwi music. I suppose as NZ music was mentioned best time now would be to share some. I am curious which kiwi you are talking about.

Ok so this is good from what I can see. You are sort of now being objective when talking about music. That adds qualification to why you have these opinions. THIS is what I have been looking for. Like when i discuss art. Personally I prefer the art of the Romantics period which strove for idealistic, highly detailed and atmospheric design. They put a lot of work into the paintings and their skills are amazing. On top of it the work tells a story. But I do know that that is just my personal opinion. I do not much care for splatter art as it seems very vague and shows no skill from what I can gather. I do not see a story or message being conveyed.

Maybe there was a reason why loud brash music came into fashion. What was going on at the time to set this emotion off? What are the messages behind the loud brash music? Possibly the sound and appearance are all to enhance the subject matter of the song? It is like a painting. Think of a style and what it is showing to enhance the message visually (for music this would also include audio). Music has a certain style that is a giveaway to what genre it is like a painting tells you the same. History changes the style so there will be reason why music suddenly became angry and frustrated. What was going on in history to change the tone and appearance and why did it click with the youth at the time? Why did they understand it in a way that older and us younger folk could not understand? This is why even though personally i do not like a lot of that music (although i have my few bands), I listen to what others get out of it as i may have missed something. There is usually meaning behind madness when it comes to art. The message was there for those who had ears to hear it and understand it.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#65
Oh ok David Parsons. I wonder where in NZ he lives. I cannot find much about him. Not even a birth date.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#66
(07-08-2016, 04:51 PM)taramarie Wrote: Oh ok David Parsons. I wonder where in NZ he lives. I cannot find much about him. Not even a birth date.

I don't know his birth date either, although I know he is part of the late-silent war-baby/boomer cusp like the Beatles and Bob Dylan. I was in personal contact with him for a while, and got to world premiere a few of his works, but now I have lost contact. He is said to have the largest home studio in NZ and has done film work there. He is an expert on Asian music, of course. Another musician friend stayed at his house, but I don't remember where that was. Lots more info here:
http://www.harmonies.com/biographies/parsons.htm

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/david-par.../biography
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#67
(07-08-2016, 06:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(07-08-2016, 04:51 PM)taramarie Wrote: Oh ok David Parsons. I wonder where in NZ he lives. I cannot find much about him. Not even a birth date.

I don't know his birth date either, although I know he is part of the late-silent war-baby/boomer cusp like the Beatles and Bob Dylan. I was in personal contact with him for a while, and got to world premiere a few of his works, but now I have lost contact. He is said to have the largest home studio in NZ and has done film work there. He is an expert on Asian music, of course. Another musician friend stayed at his house, but I don't remember where that was. Lots more info here:
http://www.harmonies.com/biographies/parsons.htm

Yeah I figured as I was looking at the dates when he was exploring music in the 60s. Yes that is the link I looked at. Very interesting life. He definitely sounds like several people I know who are of that cohort. Eastern influence as well as the green movement is still very alive in the hearts of that cohort here in NZ. Interesting that you had personal contact with him. Did he go to America or you came here?
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#68
(07-08-2016, 06:39 PM)taramarie Wrote: Yeah I figured as I was looking at the dates when he was exploring music in the 60s. Yes that is the link I looked at. Very interesting life. He definitely sounds like several people I know who are of that cohort. Eastern influence as well as the green movement is still very alive in the hearts of that cohort here in NZ. Interesting that you had personal contact with him. Did he go to America or you came here?

Not in person; just through correspondence and email. Another colleague where I did my radio show also interviewed him on his show.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#69
"Personally i do not like the sound....BUT I get it and looked deeper and put the personal aside to look at the art critically as we should." -- Tara

"as we should?" "looked deeper?" "put the personal aside?"

If I had written that to Tara, she would have taken it as a personal attack. She attacks me whether I make a personal attack or not; just for giving my opinions.

She even went so far as to post only the words, on a music thread!

No Taramarie, it's the SOUND that's "deeper." If you do not like the sound, then it's NOT your pick for a "best song ever" and doesn't belong on that thread!

And music is not a matter of opinion, only. You can insult me for disagreeing with you, but that's my stand. You can disagree without being disagreeable, as you are so often. You are an angry girl and need to grow up. And not take everything as a personal attack.

Music is objective, because beauty is objective, has characteristics that are known, and we all hear the same thing. It's also subjective, because of what we bring to it. Our level of knowledge about the music, our personal interests, experiences and desires and what we look for in it, the kind of body and senses we have, etc. Not all songs are just as good, and not everyone has as good taste as I do, nor I as good taste as some others may have. And people vary a lot in their preferences too, and like a lot of different things. No-one can be put in a box. A difference of opinion about music, may mean that one person is right and the other person wrong about it. That certainly does not allow me to claim that I know better than anyone else about music. I have been wrong and have learned.

That is my best knowledge on this subject. And it is NOT a personal attack, if I say that I disagree with someone about a piece of music.

If I insult someone for their opinion, whether on philosophy, or on politics, or on music, then it IS a personal attack. I indulge in that on occasion. Don't think you are holier than thou, and that you don't do that. Because you DO, Tara; a lot! I don't engage in too many personal attacks though, because I respect people, and want a dialogue with them. And this forum is about the subject matter, not the participants. It is not about reforming ME. And it's not about endless personal squabbling. I will cut off the squabbles with you and let you have the last word. That I say this much at least means I have enough respect for you that I think you can understand what I write, though I doubt that you will.

I feel two ways about people liking such stuff as grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop. On the one hand, as John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right. Whatever people enjoy is OK with me. I don't disrespect people for liking the music I don't, or vice-versa.

On the other hand, I say people ought to know better. That stuff is obvious trash (in my opinion). It is the worse stuff I have ever heard from any time in history, and I know a lot of times in history. That's why I think some of you guys can't really be serious, and why I even might say that that stuff is noise for boise. Of course, we all have our boys sides, and we never really fully grow up and throw out that part of us, so why is that an insult, Tara? "Shake it off," Tara. Stop preaching, and chill out, Miss angry, volatile Scorpio/Pluto young lady Millennial! It really is tiring. And this is not going to be the start of an endless squabble. I've said my piece, and I'm NOT going to change my mind due to insults from you, Tara. Grow up and stop being a boi.

I have an ideal: that we the people need to be more sensitive, gentle, feminine, discerning, interested in beauty, imaginative, open to mystical experience in the arts; and NOT just insist that our music has to be only macho and aggressive or else it's somehow inauthentic. Rubbish, and you ought to know better. The right balance is what I like.

I think the arts are as important to us as our politics and our science and philosophy. And we need GOOD arts, just as we need quality and good sense in the other things too. And I say that the sound and the musical qualities and the musicianship is the thing. If a song doesn't have that, it's not good, and it's certainly not one of the best-- whatever turning it's in, or whatever generation the artist or the fans may be, and whoever says it's cool and part of the time it's in. I have never liked music on that basis. The best-ever songs are TIMELESS, even though they also express a time. And yes, I think there's been less good American pop music in the 3T than in any other turning we know. I am open to hear anything that's good from that recent 3T time, however. And it's more likely to come from other venues and styles than "grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop." (Iow sheer "noise"; no, noise is not art, and it's not music).

If you like the verbal message, you can read it. That's fine; I understand verbal arts are important too. I like good lyrics too. Although "the best songs ever: the lost years" is a music thread, and I say that lyrics alone shouldn't be there, I see nothing wrong with posting lyrics, as lyrics.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#70
(08-03-2016, 01:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Personally i do not like the sound....BUT I get it and looked deeper and put the personal aside to look at the art critically as we should." -- Tara

"as we should?" "looked deeper?"

If I had written that to Tara, she would have taken it as a personal attack. She attacks me whether I make a personal attack or not; just for giving my opinions.

She even went so far as to post only the words, on a music thread!

No Taramarie, it's the SOUND that's "deeper." If you do not like the sound, then it's NOT your pick for a "best song ever" and doesn't belong on that thread!

And music is not a matter of opinion, only. You can insult me for disagreeing with you, but that's my stand. You can disagree without being disagreeable, as you are so often. You are an angry girl and need to grow up. And not take everything as a personal attack.

Music is objective, because beauty is objective, has characteristics that are known, and we all hear the same thing. It's also subjective, because of what we bring to it. Our level of knowledge about the music, our personal interests, experiences and desires and what we look for in it, the kind of body and senses we have, etc. Not all songs are just as good, and not everyone has as good taste as I do, nor I as good taste as some others may have. And people vary a lot in their preferences too, and like a lot of different things. No-one can be put in a box. A difference of opinion about music, may mean that one person is right and the other person wrong about it. That certainly does not allow me to claim that I know better than anyone else about music. I have been wrong and have learned.

That is my best knowledge on this subject. And it is NOT a personal attack, if I say that I disagree with someone about a piece of music.

If I insult someone for their opinion, whether on philosophy, or on politics, or on music, then it IS a personal attack. I indulge in that on occasion. Don't think you are holier and thou, and that you don't do that. Because you DO, Tara; a lot! I don't engage in too many personal attacks though, because I respect people, and want a dialogue with them. And this forum is about the subject matter, not the participants. It is not about reforming ME. And it's not about endless personal squabbling. I will cut off the squabbles with you and let you have the last word. That I say this much at least means I have enough respect for you that I think you can understand what I write, though I doubt that you will.

I feel two ways about people liking such stuff as grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop. On the one hand, as John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right. Whatever people enjoy is OK with me. I don't disrespect people for liking the music I don't, or vice-versa.

On the other hand, I say people ought to know better. That stuff is obvious trash (in my opinion). It is the worse stuff I have ever heard from any time in history, and I know a lot of times in history. That's why I think some of you guys can't really be serious, and why I even might say that that stuff is noise for boise. Of course, we all have our boys sides, and we never really fully grow up and throw out that part of us, so why is that an insult, Tara? "Shake it off," Tara. Stop preaching, and chill out, Miss angry, volatile Scorpio/Pluto young lady Millennial! It really is tiring. And this is not going to be the start of an endless squabble. I've said my piece, and I'm NOT going to change my mind due to insults from you, Tara. Grow up and stop being a boi.

I have an ideal: that we the people need to be more sensitive, gentle, feminine, discerning, interested in beauty, imaginative, open to mystical experience in the arts; and NOT just insist that our music has to be only macho and aggressive or else it's somehow inauthentic. Rubbish, and you ought to know better. The right balance is what I like.

I think the arts are as important to us as our politics and our science and philosophy. And we need GOOD arts, just as we need quality and good sense in the other things too. And I say that the sound and the musical qualities and the musicianship is the thing. If a song doesn't have that, it's not good, and it's certainly  not one of the best-- whatever turning it's in, or whatever generation the artist or the fans may be, and whoever says it's cool and part of the time it's in. I have never liked music on that basis. The best-ever songs are TIMELESS, even though they also express a time. And yes, I think there's been less good American pop music in the 3T than in any other turning we know. I am open to hear anything that's good from that recent 3T time, however. And it's more likely to come from other venues and styles than "grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop." (Iow sheer "noise"; no, noise is not art, and it's not music).

If you like the verbal message, you can read it. That's fine; I understand verbal arts are important too. I like good lyrics too. Although "the best songs ever: the lost years" is a music thread, and I say that lyrics alone shouldn't be there, I see nothing wrong with posting lyrics, as lyrics.

Actually (and i am being honest) if you said you look deeper at the music no i would not have. I would appreciate you are looking at the whole picture because there is more to a song than just the sound. Context matters Eric. As for what i think about art, ask my teachers because i actually listened to what they said. There are many parts to a piece of art that should be all considered. I would say i am much more open minded on this than you are.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#71
(08-03-2016, 01:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Personally i do not like the sound....BUT I get it and looked deeper and put the personal aside to look at the art critically as we should." -- Tara

"as we should?" "looked deeper?"

If I had written that to Tara, she would have taken it as a personal attack. She attacks me whether I make a personal attack or not; just for giving my opinions.

She even went so far as to post only the words, on a music thread!

No Taramarie, it's the SOUND that's "deeper." If you do not like the sound, then it's NOT your pick for a "best song ever" and doesn't belong on that thread!

And music is not a matter of opinion, only. You can insult me for disagreeing with you, but that's my stand. You can disagree without being disagreeable, as you are so often. You are an angry girl and need to grow up. And not take everything as a personal attack.

Music is objective, because beauty is objective, has characteristics that are known, and we all hear the same thing. It's also subjective, because of what we bring to it. Our level of knowledge about the music, our personal interests, experiences and desires and what we look for in it, the kind of body and senses we have, etc. Not all songs are just as good, and not everyone has as good taste as I do, nor I as good taste as some others may have. And people vary a lot in their preferences too, and like a lot of different things. No-one can be put in a box. A difference of opinion about music, may mean that one person is right and the other person wrong about it. That certainly does not allow me to claim that I know better than anyone else about music. I have been wrong and have learned.

That is my best knowledge on this subject. And it is NOT a personal attack, if I say that I disagree with someone about a piece of music.

If I insult someone for their opinion, whether on philosophy, or on politics, or on music, then it IS a personal attack. I indulge in that on occasion. Don't think you are holier than thou, and that you don't do that. Because you DO, Tara; a lot! I don't engage in too many personal attacks though, because I respect people, and want a dialogue with them. And this forum is about the subject matter, not the participants. It is not about reforming ME. And it's not about endless personal squabbling. I will cut off the squabbles with you and let you have the last word. That I say this much at least means I have enough respect for you that I think you can understand what I write, though I doubt that you will.

I feel two ways about people liking such stuff as grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop. On the one hand, as John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right. Whatever people enjoy is OK with me. I don't disrespect people for liking the music I don't, or vice-versa.

On the other hand, I say people ought to know better. That stuff is obvious trash (in my opinion). It is the worse stuff I have ever heard from any time in history, and I know a lot of times in history. That's why I think some of you guys can't really be serious, and why I even might say that that stuff is noise for boise. Of course, we all have our boys sides, and we never really fully grow up and throw out that part of us, so why is that an insult, Tara? "Shake it off," Tara. Stop preaching, and chill out, Miss angry, volatile Scorpio/Pluto young lady Millennial! It really is tiring. And this is not going to be the start of an endless squabble. I've said my piece, and I'm NOT going to change my mind due to insults from you, Tara. Grow up and stop being a boi.

I have an ideal: that we the people need to be more sensitive, gentle, feminine, discerning, interested in beauty, imaginative, open to mystical experience in the arts; and NOT just insist that our music has to be only macho and aggressive or else it's somehow inauthentic. Rubbish, and you ought to know better. The right balance is what I like.

I think the arts are as important to us as our politics and our science and philosophy. And we need GOOD arts, just as we need quality and good sense in the other things too. And I say that the sound and the musical qualities and the musicianship is the thing. If a song doesn't have that, it's not good, and it's certainly  not one of the best-- whatever turning it's in, or whatever generation the artist or the fans may be, and whoever says it's cool and part of the time it's in. I have never liked music on that basis. The best-ever songs are TIMELESS, even though they also express a time. And yes, I think there's been less good American pop music in the 3T than in any other turning we know. I am open to hear anything that's good from that recent 3T time, however. And it's more likely to come from other venues and styles than "grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop." (Iow sheer "noise"; no, noise is not art, and it's not music).

If you like the verbal message, you can read it. That's fine; I understand verbal arts are important too. I like good lyrics too. Although "the best songs ever: the lost years" is a music thread, and I say that lyrics alone shouldn't be there, I see nothing wrong with posting lyrics, as lyrics.

Then you should be objective and not personally attack those who do like certain music. Do keep in mind though that it does not matter what you say is good and what isn't to others as they will always love what you deem rubbish. But being objective IF you are to use your experience as a way to show us other music is the way to go and do not personalize it. You know exactly what i mean. I did see it, it is there on my repost for anyone who wants proof. I can link it if i want to so do not lie and say you never said it. Just because you deleted it does not mean you never said it. I will drop this when you consider everyone and stop bashing what we love and those who love that music. You most certainly can say you do not like it. I do not like certain songs that you like but i am not bashing them nor bashing those who like them. It is out of respect for those who do like it.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#72
(08-03-2016, 01:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Personally i do not like the sound....BUT I get it and looked deeper and put the personal aside to look at the art critically as we should." -- Tara

"as we should?" "looked deeper?" "put the personal aside?"

If I had written that to Tara, she would have taken it as a personal attack. She attacks me whether I make a personal attack or not; just for giving my opinions.

She even went so far as to post only the words, on a music thread!

No Taramarie, it's the SOUND that's "deeper." If you do not like the sound, then it's NOT your pick for a "best song ever" and doesn't belong on that thread!

And music is not a matter of opinion, only. You can insult me for disagreeing with you, but that's my stand. You can disagree without being disagreeable, as you are so often. You are an angry girl and need to grow up. And not take everything as a personal attack.

Music is objective, because beauty is objective, has characteristics that are known, and we all hear the same thing. It's also subjective, because of what we bring to it. Our level of knowledge about the music, our personal interests, experiences and desires and what we look for in it, the kind of body and senses we have, etc. Not all songs are just as good, and not everyone has as good taste as I do, nor I as good taste as some others may have. And people vary a lot in their preferences too, and like a lot of different things. No-one can be put in a box. A difference of opinion about music, may mean that one person is right and the other person wrong about it. That certainly does not allow me to claim that I know better than anyone else about music. I have been wrong and have learned.

That is my best knowledge on this subject. And it is NOT a personal attack, if I say that I disagree with someone about a piece of music.

If I insult someone for their opinion, whether on philosophy, or on politics, or on music, then it IS a personal attack. I indulge in that on occasion. Don't think you are holier than thou, and that you don't do that. Because you DO, Tara; a lot! I don't engage in too many personal attacks though, because I respect people, and want a dialogue with them. And this forum is about the subject matter, not the participants. It is not about reforming ME. And it's not about endless personal squabbling. I will cut off the squabbles with you and let you have the last word. That I say this much at least means I have enough respect for you that I think you can understand what I write, though I doubt that you will.

I feel two ways about people liking such stuff as grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop. On the one hand, as John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right. Whatever people enjoy is OK with me. I don't disrespect people for liking the music I don't, or vice-versa.

On the other hand, I say people ought to know better. That stuff is obvious trash (in my opinion). It is the worse stuff I have ever heard from any time in history, and I know a lot of times in history. That's why I think some of you guys can't really be serious, and why I even might say that that stuff is noise for boise. Of course, we all have our boys sides, and we never really fully grow up and throw out that part of us, so why is that an insult, Tara? "Shake it off," Tara. Stop preaching, and chill out, Miss angry, volatile Scorpio/Pluto young lady Millennial! It really is tiring. And this is not going to be the start of an endless squabble. I've said my piece, and I'm NOT going to change my mind due to insults from you, Tara. Grow up and stop being a boi.

I have an ideal: that we the people need to be more sensitive, gentle, feminine, discerning, interested in beauty, imaginative, open to mystical experience in the arts; and NOT just insist that our music has to be only macho and aggressive or else it's somehow inauthentic. Rubbish, and you ought to know better. The right balance is what I like.

I think the arts are as important to us as our politics and our science and philosophy. And we need GOOD arts, just as we need quality and good sense in the other things too. And I say that the sound and the musical qualities and the musicianship is the thing. If a song doesn't have that, it's not good, and it's certainly  not one of the best-- whatever turning it's in, or whatever generation the artist or the fans may be, and whoever says it's cool and part of the time it's in. I have never liked music on that basis. The best-ever songs are TIMELESS, even though they also express a time. And yes, I think there's been less good American pop music in the 3T than in any other turning we know. I am open to hear anything that's good from that recent 3T time, however. And it's more likely to come from other venues and styles than "grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop." (Iow sheer "noise"; no, noise is not art, and it's not music).

If you like the verbal message, you can read it. That's fine; I understand verbal arts are important too. I like good lyrics too. Although "the best songs ever: the lost years" is a music thread, and I say that lyrics alone shouldn't be there, I see nothing wrong with posting lyrics, as lyrics.

The sound heightens the message. It is a voice for those who are currently not being heard. So of course it is angry. Just because it does not fit your ideal does not make it less interesting. I have explored every genre and it is my sensitivity that has allowed me to look past what i automatically think is terrible and realize that the image or sound is connected to the message. They are one and the same. Maybe you need to study art to understand what i mean.

It is an insult because you are judging people to be childish for liking certain music. "Stop being a boi." You say to me. I am a female and have never been a boy. I have been a bit of a tomboy my whole life but that is not the same thing! Lol. As for the right balance, so do i actually. But our balance will be different given we are two different people with different histories. Plus i do understand the context, the whole picture and take a piece of art apart to understand it.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#73
(08-03-2016, 01:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Personally i do not like the sound....BUT I get it and looked deeper and put the personal aside to look at the art critically as we should." -- Tara

"as we should?" "looked deeper?" "put the personal aside?"

If I had written that to Tara, she would have taken it as a personal attack. She attacks me whether I make a personal attack or not; just for giving my opinions.

She even went so far as to post only the words, on a music thread!

No Taramarie, it's the SOUND that's "deeper." If you do not like the sound, then it's NOT your pick for a "best song ever" and doesn't belong on that thread!

And music is not a matter of opinion, only. You can insult me for disagreeing with you, but that's my stand. You can disagree without being disagreeable, as you are so often. You are an angry girl and need to grow up. And not take everything as a personal attack.

Music is objective, because beauty is objective, has characteristics that are known, and we all hear the same thing. It's also subjective, because of what we bring to it. Our level of knowledge about the music, our personal interests, experiences and desires and what we look for in it, the kind of body and senses we have, etc. Not all songs are just as good, and not everyone has as good taste as I do, nor I as good taste as some others may have. And people vary a lot in their preferences too, and like a lot of different things. No-one can be put in a box. A difference of opinion about music, may mean that one person is right and the other person wrong about it. That certainly does not allow me to claim that I know better than anyone else about music. I have been wrong and have learned.

That is my best knowledge on this subject. And it is NOT a personal attack, if I say that I disagree with someone about a piece of music.

If I insult someone for their opinion, whether on philosophy, or on politics, or on music, then it IS a personal attack. I indulge in that on occasion. Don't think you are holier than thou, and that you don't do that. Because you DO, Tara; a lot! I don't engage in too many personal attacks though, because I respect people, and want a dialogue with them. And this forum is about the subject matter, not the participants. It is not about reforming ME. And it's not about endless personal squabbling. I will cut off the squabbles with you and let you have the last word. That I say this much at least means I have enough respect for you that I think you can understand what I write, though I doubt that you will.

I feel two ways about people liking such stuff as grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop. On the one hand, as John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right. Whatever people enjoy is OK with me. I don't disrespect people for liking the music I don't, or vice-versa.

On the other hand, I say people ought to know better. That stuff is obvious trash (in my opinion). It is the worse stuff I have ever heard from any time in history, and I know a lot of times in history. That's why I think some of you guys can't really be serious, and why I even might say that that stuff is noise for boise. Of course, we all have our boys sides, and we never really fully grow up and throw out that part of us, so why is that an insult, Tara? "Shake it off," Tara. Stop preaching, and chill out, Miss angry, volatile Scorpio/Pluto young lady Millennial! It really is tiring. And this is not going to be the start of an endless squabble. I've said my piece, and I'm NOT going to change my mind due to insults from you, Tara. Grow up and stop being a boi.

I have an ideal: that we the people need to be more sensitive, gentle, feminine, discerning, interested in beauty, imaginative, open to mystical experience in the arts; and NOT just insist that our music has to be only macho and aggressive or else it's somehow inauthentic. Rubbish, and you ought to know better. The right balance is what I like.

I think the arts are as important to us as our politics and our science and philosophy. And we need GOOD arts, just as we need quality and good sense in the other things too. And I say that the sound and the musical qualities and the musicianship is the thing. If a song doesn't have that, it's not good, and it's certainly  not one of the best-- whatever turning it's in, or whatever generation the artist or the fans may be, and whoever says it's cool and part of the time it's in. I have never liked music on that basis. The best-ever songs are TIMELESS, even though they also express a time. And yes, I think there's been less good American pop music in the 3T than in any other turning we know. I am open to hear anything that's good from that recent 3T time, however. And it's more likely to come from other venues and styles than "grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop." (Iow sheer "noise"; no, noise is not art, and it's not music).

If you like the verbal message, you can read it. That's fine; I understand verbal arts are important too. I like good lyrics too. Although "the best songs ever: the lost years" is a music thread, and I say that lyrics alone shouldn't be there, I see nothing wrong with posting lyrics, as lyrics.
I agree to a certain degree. I will explain. Even though I can pick apart a picture or a song etc to find the reasoning as to why it looks the way it does (as well as taking from what i have been taught) I do have my likes and dislikes. But that is personal and should not affect my judgement nor should i judge those who like what i do not like. So i look deeper to understand the work and the people who like it. At the same time, I work my arse off to create what i deem to be great art. That does not mean the art i do not like is not art. Marcel DuChamp wanted people to consider what art is. And I am. I prefer the Romanticism era, and the Neo gothic era. One beautiful, sensitive, subtle and emotional. The other dark, haunting and yet beautifully painted. Steampunk also is hearkening back to the 19th century which i also love. But what i love should not influence my judgement just because of my qualifications.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#74
(08-03-2016, 01:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Personally i do not like the sound....BUT I get it and looked deeper and put the personal aside to look at the art critically as we should." -- Tara

"as we should?" "looked deeper?" "put the personal aside?"

If I had written that to Tara, she would have taken it as a personal attack. She attacks me whether I make a personal attack or not; just for giving my opinions.

She even went so far as to post only the words, on a music thread!

No Taramarie, it's the SOUND that's "deeper." If you do not like the sound, then it's NOT your pick for a "best song ever" and doesn't belong on that thread!

And music is not a matter of opinion, only. You can insult me for disagreeing with you, but that's my stand. You can disagree without being disagreeable, as you are so often. You are an angry girl and need to grow up. And not take everything as a personal attack.

Music is objective, because beauty is objective, has characteristics that are known, and we all hear the same thing. It's also subjective, because of what we bring to it. Our level of knowledge about the music, our personal interests, experiences and desires and what we look for in it, the kind of body and senses we have, etc. Not all songs are just as good, and not everyone has as good taste as I do, nor I as good taste as some others may have. And people vary a lot in their preferences too, and like a lot of different things. No-one can be put in a box. A difference of opinion about music, may mean that one person is right and the other person wrong about it. That certainly does not allow me to claim that I know better than anyone else about music. I have been wrong and have learned.

That is my best knowledge on this subject. And it is NOT a personal attack, if I say that I disagree with someone about a piece of music.

If I insult someone for their opinion, whether on philosophy, or on politics, or on music, then it IS a personal attack. I indulge in that on occasion. Don't think you are holier than thou, and that you don't do that. Because you DO, Tara; a lot! I don't engage in too many personal attacks though, because I respect people, and want a dialogue with them. And this forum is about the subject matter, not the participants. It is not about reforming ME. And it's not about endless personal squabbling. I will cut off the squabbles with you and let you have the last word. That I say this much at least means I have enough respect for you that I think you can understand what I write, though I doubt that you will.

I feel two ways about people liking such stuff as grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop. On the one hand, as John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night, it's all right. Whatever people enjoy is OK with me. I don't disrespect people for liking the music I don't, or vice-versa.

On the other hand, I say people ought to know better. That stuff is obvious trash (in my opinion). It is the worse stuff I have ever heard from any time in history, and I know a lot of times in history. That's why I think some of you guys can't really be serious, and why I even might say that that stuff is noise for boise. Of course, we all have our boys sides, and we never really fully grow up and throw out that part of us, so why is that an insult, Tara? "Shake it off," Tara. Stop preaching, and chill out, Miss angry, volatile Scorpio/Pluto young lady Millennial! It really is tiring. And this is not going to be the start of an endless squabble. I've said my piece, and I'm NOT going to change my mind due to insults from you, Tara. Grow up and stop being a boi.

I have an ideal: that we the people need to be more sensitive, gentle, feminine, discerning, interested in beauty, imaginative, open to mystical experience in the arts; and NOT just insist that our music has to be only macho and aggressive or else it's somehow inauthentic. Rubbish, and you ought to know better. The right balance is what I like.

I think the arts are as important to us as our politics and our science and philosophy. And we need GOOD arts, just as we need quality and good sense in the other things too. And I say that the sound and the musical qualities and the musicianship is the thing. If a song doesn't have that, it's not good, and it's certainly  not one of the best-- whatever turning it's in, or whatever generation the artist or the fans may be, and whoever says it's cool and part of the time it's in. I have never liked music on that basis. The best-ever songs are TIMELESS, even though they also express a time. And yes, I think there's been less good American pop music in the 3T than in any other turning we know. I am open to hear anything that's good from that recent 3T time, however. And it's more likely to come from other venues and styles than "grunge, heavy metal, core punk, rap and shallow pop." (Iow sheer "noise"; no, noise is not art, and it's not music).

If you like the verbal message, you can read it. That's fine; I understand verbal arts are important too. I like good lyrics too. Although "the best songs ever: the lost years" is a music thread, and I say that lyrics alone shouldn't be there, I see nothing wrong with posting lyrics, as lyrics.

Bingo. Eric, we agree. Where we disagree is how you go about it. You need to be objective when discussing music if you are to bring your qualifications into it. So what i mean is discussing the sound, the reason why, the topic or message, the history, the artist and his background, his or her thoughts on it, reviews on it. Bring your qualifications into it. Where you trip up is when you insult other music and on top of it insult those who like it. That is not professional.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#75
I see thousands of comments on you tube videos from people young and old, similar to this:

Tami Rolhiser2 weeks ago
I really love this old music as it tells us a story and has so much meaning as today's music has no meaning what so ever and it really sucks as to why I love the 50s 60s and 70s music it was so meaningful back then wish I could have experience those good old days as I don't care for the music today

Lots of young people agree, the music was better then. Of course in 2010-2012 when I would see these comments, almost everyone would also say, "So much better than Justin Bieber" etc. because he was the biggest pop sensation of that time. I like JB, of course, and some other more-recent music.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#76
(08-03-2016, 06:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I see thousands of comments on you tube videos from people young and old, similar to this:

Tami Rolhiser2 weeks ago
I really love this old music as it tells us a story and has so much meaning as today's music has no meaning what so ever and it really sucks as to why I love the 50s 60s and 70s music it was so meaningful back then wish I could have experience those good old days as I don't care for the music today

Lots of young people agree, the music was better then. Of course in 2010-2012 when I would see these comments, almost everyone would also say, "So much better than Justin Bieber" etc. because he was the biggest pop sensation of that time. I like JB, of course, and some other more-recent music.

People say the same thing about 90s music. That it was better then than now. It is nostalgia talking.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#77
There is a lot of sentiment out there that the 3T and 4T music isn't as good, and it would be good if real music was brought back. I would like to see people here demonstrate that the 3T produced some good pop music. Taramarie actually posted at least a few good songs, and some OK "happy" (and sexy) pop. Others posted a few good things. The Santana song I was going to post, was posted. Recently it's been mostly grunge stuff, and I don't hear music in it. But I know there were some good rock groups in the 3T, like REM, Depeche Mode, and early Maroon 5 was OK; and I thought I heard some good songs by The Cure (not posted in the 3T thread yet though), and later, Coldplay and Green Day. I think there's some good stuff that better represents "the best," even though I likely wouldn't think it is; but at least good. I don't know enough about the era and would like to learn more, without having my ears bled. So I hope you can give it a shot. Find the good stuff. It's not a matter of what generation I sympathize with; it's a question of quality.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#78
(08-03-2016, 08:08 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(08-03-2016, 06:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I see thousands of comments on you tube videos from people young and old, similar to this:

Tami Rolhiser2 weeks ago
I really love this old music as it tells us a story and has so much meaning as today's music has no meaning what so ever and it really sucks as to why I love the 50s 60s and 70s music it was so meaningful back then wish I could have experience those good old days as I don't care for the music today

Lots of young people agree, the music was better then. Of course in 2010-2012 when I would see these comments, almost everyone would also say, "So much better than Justin Bieber" etc. because he was the biggest pop sensation of that time. I like JB, of course, and some other more-recent music.

People say the same thing about 90s music. That it was better then than now. It is nostalgia talking.

I have witnessed many Millennials be nostalgic about everything to do with 90s culture. I am like that to an extent. Today more than ever seems to be a time to reflect on the past, and that includes being nostalgic about past culture.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again."
—Thomas Paine, Common Sense (1776)

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes."
—Mark Twain

'98 Millennial
Reply
#79
(08-03-2016, 11:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is a lot of sentiment out there that the 3T and 4T music isn't as good, and it would be good if real music was brought back. I would like to see people here demonstrate that the 3T produced some good pop music. Taramarie actually posted at least a few good songs, and some OK "happy" (and sexy) pop. Others posted a few good things. The Santana song I was going to post, was posted. Recently it's been mostly grunge stuff, and I don't hear music in it. But I know there were some good rock groups in the 3T, like REM, Depeche Mode, and early Maroon 5 was OK; and I thought I heard some good songs by The Cure (not posted in the 3T thread yet though), and later, Coldplay and Green Day. I think there's some good stuff that better represents "the best," even though I likely wouldn't think it is; but at least good. I don't know enough about the era and would like to learn more, without having my ears bled. So I hope you can give it a shot. Find the good stuff. It's not a matter of what generation I sympathize with; it's a question of quality.

Yes and likewise there is a lot of sentiment for 3T music being held in high regard. It is just nostalgia. Depends who you talk to. I am skeptical of people saying something is more "real" whether it is a "real man" "real woman" "real christian, muslim" and that includes "real music." It is heavily opinion based and everyone has an opinion. It varies. That even includes those who are highly educated in the fields we are both educated in. You in music, and myself in art. So i am skeptical and prefer to rather look at the world of art which includes music in a non biased way and pick it apart to see what others see in it. Yes I would probably surprise you with what I like. You certainly have not seen (or heard) all that i like and i think i have surprised you. You originally thought i did not have a wide range of taste in music. Probably comparing me to rags who sticks to rock so i hear. There are many treasures to explore and you have not seen it all from me yet. FYI, i am not into grunge much myself. But i look at things like that objectively.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






Reply
#80
(08-03-2016, 11:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: There is a lot of sentiment out there that the 3T and 4T music isn't as good, and it would be good if real music was brought back. I would like to see people here demonstrate that the 3T produced some good pop music. Taramarie actually posted at least a few good songs, and some OK "happy" (and sexy) pop. Others posted a few good things. The Santana song I was going to post, was posted. Recently it's been mostly grunge stuff, and I don't hear music in it. But I know there were some good rock groups in the 3T, like REM, Depeche Mode, and early Maroon 5 was OK; and I thought I heard some good songs by The Cure (not posted in the 3T thread yet though), and later, Coldplay and Green Day. I think there's some good stuff that better represents "the best," even though I likely wouldn't think it is; but at least good. I don't know enough about the era and would like to learn more, without having my ears bled. So I hope you can give it a shot. Find the good stuff. It's not a matter of what generation I sympathize with; it's a question of quality.

Just remember, what someone thinks is the best is subjective and is just their opinion. Anyone can post whatever they think is the best music on the best song threads!
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again."
—Thomas Paine, Common Sense (1776)

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes."
—Mark Twain

'98 Millennial
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Pop Stars By Decade gabrielle 1 897 01-02-2017, 06:46 PM
Last Post: Eric the Green

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)