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What The Hell Is Wrong With Donald Trump Supporters?
What is the answer of what to replace the current hostile environment? Here have been a few suggestions by someone that i know. A fellow millennial. I totally agree with this list.

"1. If they are complete strangers and you don't have some type of skill-set in persuading people (negotiator, educator on related topics, etc) I would not even bother. Frankly, it takes a lot of patience that I don't see in many people. If you view the person you are trying to persuade as an adversary, there is a good chance that things will go south by the end of the exchange.

The rest of these are assuming you have some type of relationship to the person, even if you are just acquaintances. I also think that they mainly work with in-person interactions. For the specific situation you gave, I think social media is a horrible mismatched medium to use. Without an actual physical body to interact with, these tools get harder to use.

2. Active listening, labeling and mirroring. This is most of what you will be doing. People have their own ideas of what the term "systemic racism" even means. Let someone explain their views/understanding. Resist the need to label them ("you are ignorant, racist, etc"). That will derail the entire conversation. The individual can't absorb information while trying to defend him/herself. You need to know what they know. Mirror back what they said, so both parties can confirm that you understood their viewpoint correctly. Once they confirm it, you can actually *start* the conversation.

3. Don't force someone to admit you are right. That's not the point of the interaction and if someone senses this, they will instinctively resist what you say.

4. Rinse and repeat. When you get to the end of step 2, you can start providing information. But even with that, the persuader has to stay even-tempered and non-judgmental. Avoid starting sentences with "Why". Why is accusatory and puts people into defense mode."
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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An interesting article that breaks down country folk vs urban folk through media and how it applies to the world around us to explain the Trump phenomenon.

How Half Of America Lost Its F**king Mind
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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(11-11-2016, 01:50 AM)taramarie Wrote: What is the answer of what to replace the current hostile environment? Here have been a few suggestions by someone that i know. A fellow millennial. I totally agree with this list.

"1. If they are complete strangers and you don't have some type of skill-set in persuading people (negotiator, educator on related topics, etc) I would not even bother. Frankly, it takes a lot of patience that I don't see in many people. If you view the person you are trying to persuade as an adversary, there is a good chance that things will go south by the end of the exchange.

The rest of these are assuming you have some type of relationship to the person, even if you are just acquaintances. I also think that they mainly work with in-person interactions. For the specific situation you gave, I think social media is a horrible mismatched medium to use. Without an actual physical body to interact with, these tools get harder to use.

2. Active listening, labeling and mirroring. This is most of what you will be doing. People have their own ideas of what the term "systemic racism" even means. Let someone explain their views/understanding. Resist the need to label them ("you are ignorant, racist, etc"). That will derail the entire conversation. The individual can't absorb information while trying to defend him/herself. You need to know what they know. Mirror back what they said, so both parties can confirm that you understood their viewpoint correctly. Once they confirm it, you can actually *start* the conversation.

3. Don't force someone to admit you are right. That's not the point of the interaction and if someone senses this, they will instinctively resist what you say.

4. Rinse and repeat. When you get to the end of step 2, you can start providing information. But even with that, the persuader has to stay even-tempered and non-judgmental. Avoid starting sentences with "Why". Why is accusatory and puts people into defense mode."

5. Be prepared to forgive. Good people voted for Donald Trump because they thought that he could get them more jobs and make America proud again. That is important to them.  Never mind that the jobs will pay far less, and the pride will be in things unworthy of pride.

6. Talk about individual issues. With hunters and other outdoor types, discuss environmental degradation. (Sport hunters have a vested stake in the environment. Having experienced two car-deer crashes I don't have the sentimental feeling about deer that one might have after watching Bambi  too many times). Guns? Ask the sport hunter about the guns that he lost while Obama was President due to his gun laws.

Blue-collar workers? Go ahead and admit that intellectuals just don't get the popular culture that white workers love. If you are better educated, then that may indicate why you prefer Mozart to country music. Give up any claim to cultural superiority. Appalachia and the Ozarks are as culturally-genuine as Germany, Italy, Mexico, or Japan. Remind blue-collar workers that if they voted for Donald Trump, they voted for someone who will gladly take away collective bargaining so that employers can force wage cuts upon workers.

Bible-believing Christians? Remind them of how un-Christian the bigotry, plutocracy, and dishonesty of Donald Trump are. Of course it helps if you know the Bible, especially the Sermon on the Mount. A hint: Jesus did not tell people to give everything to the rich and powerful so that the elites can indulge themselves more fully.

Constitutional purists? Show how the courts are swatting down executive orders that bypass Congress, violate statutory law, and fail to pass Constitutional muster.  The President who had been a Professor of Constitutional Law made sure that his executive orders were Constitutionally valid and consistent with statutory law.

Small business? Note well that Donald Trump will aid Big Business at the expense of small business. Small businesses are usually more concerned with having customers than in constraining costs... and if working people are poorer, then small business will get hurt.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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With approval polls showing support for President Trump in the vicinity of 40% at the most favorable and disapproval typically in the mid-50s, it is safe to say that many people who ordinarily vote Republican have begun to turn against him. Maybe they won't vote for the Democratic nominee, but they might be open for some conservative alternative.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
(06-29-2017, 04:19 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: With approval polls showing support for President Trump in the vicinity of 40% at the most favorable and disapproval typically in the mid-50s, it is safe to say that many people who ordinarily vote Republican have begun to turn against him. Maybe they won't vote for the Democratic nominee, but they might be open for some conservative alternative.

I concur that approval of Trump is fading.  Still, it was not long ago that Trump was wiping the floor with the Republican establishment candidates.  There are still a lot of Reagan - Tea Party populist rural folk who have bought into the unraveling memes, trickle down, cut taxes, balloon debt, build military, government is the problem.

It should be well known that I don't favor the unraveling memes.  I can understand why the country had to go that way in the early unraveling, and that once a wide spread political movement builds up inertia, it will be taken beyond the point of reasonable return, perhaps to the point of absurdity.

I'm still wondering if Trump is discrediting just Trump, or if he is discrediting the unraveling memes?  I'm still doubtful of Trump's people skills and political experience.  I find it hard to picture him getting his act together.  With the coastal blue media getting their teeth into him, by the time he theoretically does figure things out, his public image will be shot, his political capital spent.  I doubt he will have the usual incumbent's free pass to the nomination in 2020.

But who does get the Republican nomination?  Trump?  An establishment Republican?

Or a sane Tea Party person?  Does such exist?  Palin and Trump have been the two going to the head of the TP's parade, but neither come across to this blue tainted person as particularly sane.  You can see the fence the Mexicans will build for us from Alaska?  There is a tendency for Tea Party leaders to push stuff that is factually absurd but perhaps intuitively or poetically 'wannabe true'.  Trump and Palin share a way of looking askew at the world that seems to bring them up front to many rural folk.  The unraveling memes have been sold long enough that they are taken seriously as a key set of values to guide the world.  If one can feed the rural frustration that the unraveling memes have not been well implemented by Establishment politicians of either party, there is a large voter base out there waiting.

The rural folk could continue the quest for someone to make the unraveling memes work.  I see this as a futile quest as the unraveling memes are past their time and can not be made to work.

I've a sense that the Russia thing is echoing Hillary's e-mail problem.  There might be little to nothing there, but between partisan opposition and a hostile press eager for emotional story line, it isn't going to go away.  Even if it did, the lack of discipline in the Trump White House would generate lots things for a media frenzy.  The tone of the Trump administration, how people see him, may have been already set.

I'm kind of hoping there are some idea people among the progressives.  It is one thing to attack the reputation of politicians.  It is another to persuade true believers that what they believe in has gone bad, has passed its prime.  Do we need health care?  Should we keep our infrastructure working decently?  Is our magnificent military necessary and returning in some sense what we spend on it?  It is not enough to say that Trump is incompetent.  A crisis creates a new culture, a new way of seeing the world and solving its problems.  This new approach is hammered down during the following first turning.

My feeling is that proving Trump a clown should not be greatly difficult.  Selling a new vision of providing decent domestic services even if one has to pay for them will be tougher.
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(06-29-2017, 06:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(06-29-2017, 04:19 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: With approval polls showing support for President Trump in the vicinity of 40% at the most favorable and disapproval typically in the mid-50s, it is safe to say that many people who ordinarily vote Republican have begun to turn against him. Maybe they won't vote for the Democratic nominee, but they might be open for some conservative alternative.

I concur that approval of Trump is fading.  Still, it was not long ago that Trump was wiping the floor with the Republican establishment candidates.  There are still a lot of Reagan - Tea Party populist rural folk who have bought into the unraveling memes, trickle down, cut taxes, balloon debt, build military, government is the problem.

History can move fast in a 4T, causing old coalitions to fall apart and elevating new ideas to at least temporary dominance before trashing those ideas. Donald Trump ran against Establishment Republicans and then against as Establishment a Democratic nominee for President as was available -- while aligning himself with the recent Tea Party Republicans who still hold that no human suffering is in excess so long as it creates, indulges, or enforces elite power and profit. Reality will trash those ideas or make them the inexorable wave of the future for the rest of the world, like it or not. Or as the German slogan of the last completed 4T went:

Heute Deutschland; morgen die Welt!

(Today Germany, tomorrow the world!)


Of course few Germans predicted that die Welt would prevail to the extent of Soviet and American forces meeting near Torgau, and that many of the figures of Nazi politics would end up dead or in prison for most of their lives at the end of the Crisis. Also worth saying -- that no two Crisis Eras are likely to act alike. I do not expect Germany, Italy, or Japan to be the Evil Empires this time.

So far we have an uneasy coalition between a right-wing demagogue and the more reactionary part of the American Establishment. Expect the contradictions to get worse and to be reflected in economic, diplomatic, and even military calamities.

Quote:It should be well known that I don't favor the unraveling memes.  I can understand why the country had to go that way in the early unraveling, and that once a wide spread political movement builds up inertia, it will be taken beyond the point of reasonable return, perhaps to the point of absurdity.

For most of us, including you and me, history does not operate for our convenience. But I see as Howe and Strauss did not see in 1989 the end result of the Third Turning -- the degenerate end as an inevitable result of the Unraveling, when bad politics, bad culture, and bad business put everything precious at risk. That includes our lives, our liberty, and any chances at satisfying material lives. We may be the ones for whom Denver becomes the Dresden and Houston becomes the Hiroshima of this time. We may also be the ones who are designated as pariahs to be killed either by working us to death or by formal execution. I call it the Degeneracy, the antithesis of the (ideally wholesome) Regeneracy.

Donald Trump is a degenerate -- that can hardly be denied unless one is part of his cult.


Quote:I'm still wondering if Trump is discrediting just Trump, or if he is discrediting the unraveling memes?  I'm still doubtful of Trump's people skills and political experience.  I find it hard to picture him getting his act together.  With the coastal blue media getting their teeth into him, by the time he theoretically does figure things out, his public image will be shot, his political capital spent.  I doubt he will have the usual incumbent's free pass to the nomination in 2020.


Reality can discredit the odd and unholy coalition. History in a Crisis Era is not a placid horse; it is a bucking bronco.


Quote:But who does get the Republican nomination?  Trump?  An establishment Republican?

Or a sane Tea Party person?  Does such exist?  Palin and Trump have been the two going to the head of the TP's parade, but neither come across to this blue tainted person as particularly sane.  You can see the fence the Mexicans will build for us from Alaska?  There is a tendency for Tea Party leaders to push stuff that is factually absurd but perhaps intuitively or poetically 'wannabe true'.  Trump and Palin share a way of looking askew at the world that seems to bring them up front to many rural folk.  The unraveling memes have been sold long enough that they are taken seriously as a key set of values to guide the world.  If one can feed the rural frustration that the unraveling memes have not been well implemented by Establishment politicians of either party, there is a large voter base out there waiting.


I see the Republicans stuck with Trump (or in the event that Trump dies or resigns in either disgrace or frustration) or Pence. The last President to be rejected by his own Party in the first stage of the electoral process was Millard Fillmore, generally considered one of the worst Presidents of American history.


Quote:The rural folk could continue the quest for someone to make the unraveling memes work.  I see this as a futile quest as the unraveling memes are past their time and can not be made to work.

Rural America does not have the votes for dominating American politics. At the most it has the  potential to decide which side wins in American politics. But if America has a near 50-50 split in the voting on everything else, then a small minority can tip an elections. I can name many possible groups that could play such a role depending upon their location.

Quote:I've a sense that the Russia thing is echoing Hillary's e-mail problem.  There might be little to nothing there, but between partisan opposition and a hostile press eager for emotional story line, it isn't going to go away.  Even if it did, the lack of discipline in the Trump White House would generate lots things for a media frenzy.  The tone of the Trump administration, how people see him, may have been already set.

An innocent set of circumstances can look very bad to people disgruntled with the politics of the day. Just think of Whitewater and Vince Foster. But those did not involve tampering with the election. If there is anything to the collusion between one of the two political parties and a major power hostile to democracy, then we are in ominous times. This said, Donald Trump affects a style characteristic of a dictator who decides that the suspect election that got him power is the last election that matters. I can see the Right establishing an authoritarian order much like Franco's Spain either by convincing people that they have no alternative or provoking an uprising that the Right crushes.


Quote:I'm kind of hoping there are some idea people among the progressives.  It is one thing to attack the reputation of politicians.  It is another to persuade true believers that what they believe in has gone bad, has passed its prime.  Do we need health care?  Should we keep our infrastructure working decently?  Is our magnificent military necessary and returning in some sense what we spend on it?  It is not enough to say that Trump is incompetent.  A crisis creates a new culture, a new way of seeing the world and solving its problems.  This new approach is hammered down during the following first turning.


New ideas? No. Ideas that already exist. Some are part of our heritage, like the rule of law; some have been tested elsewhere. Liberals can offer a 'social market system' similar to what the British, French, and Americans imposed upon their sectors of occupation in Germany. Education as far as one's talents takes one, a single-payer medical system, and a pattern of well-paying jobs for people who do the true blue-collar work is far better than vague promises as Heute Deutschland; morgen die Welt!  followed by  Arbeit Macht Frei that awaits the pariahs of the racist state.

Quote:My feeling is that proving Trump a clown should not be greatly difficult.  Selling a new vision of providing decent domestic services even if one has to pay for them will be tougher.

If we are going to have a President with a documented capacity for comedic entertainment, then let's have Al Franken. But this said, Al Franken could be the liberal equivalent of Ronald Reagan; he is media-savvy, and he is a good communicator. If we can elect a black man as President, then we can certainly elect a Jew as President.

All in all, politicians who put much effort into mass entertainment have a shabby history. The three most derided Roman Emperors were Nero, Caligula, and Commodus -- and they could put on shows. Lest we forget, there was the Evil Clown of Uganda, Idi A-murderin'.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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(06-29-2017, 04:19 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: With approval polls showing support for President Trump in the vicinity of 40% at the most favorable and disapproval typically in the mid-50s, it is safe to say that many people who ordinarily vote Republican have begun to turn against him. Maybe they won't vote for the Democratic nominee, but they might be open for some conservative alternative.

Apparently independents are increasingly turning on him. His support among Republicans is still over 80%, but if you've alienated everyone else that's meaningless. A lot of independents voted for him simply because he wasn't Hillary Clinton, that won't be an issue in 2020.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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