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The generations role's in a Dionysian/Appolonian saeculum
#1
I was chatting to Chas about the Apollonian/Dionysian saeculums and I was curious as to the differences of the generations compared to other generations of the same archetype depending on whether they were Dionysian or Apollonian. As I am an Apollonian civic and my mother is an Apollonian prophet I wondered how they compare to the rest of you who would be Dionysian. This is the comparison that he came up with. What are your thoughts?

Dionysian Artist = Reform!
Dionysian Prophet = Freedom!
 Dionysian Nomad = Liberty!
Dionysian Civic = Innovate!



Apollonian Artist = Amend!
Apollonian Prophet = Authority & Higher Law!
Apollonian Nomad = Tradition!
Apollonian Civic = Law &Order!


I will put in my thoughts as to the Apollonian archetypes tomorrow given I am the only Apollonian that I know of here on the forum.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#2
The last Dionysian Civics were the Gilded and the "Innovate!" theme is definitely obvious with them. Ditto with the Glorious Revolution Generation.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#3
(09-26-2016, 07:09 AM)Odin Wrote: The last Dionysian Civics were the Gilded and the "Innovate!" theme is definitely obvious with them. Ditto with the Glorious Revolution Generation.

According to S&H, the Gilded generation were nomads and there was no civic generation for that saeculum.  I understand that many among this community follow a different timeline that includes a civic generation, could someone provide a link to where this is detailed?
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#4
(09-26-2016, 07:09 AM)Odin Wrote: The last Dionysian Civics were the Gilded and the "Innovate!" theme is definitely obvious with them. Ditto with the Glorious Revolution Generation.

Yes it is an interesting list isn't it? I think Law and Order definitely suits us Apollonian millennials nicely given what we do together and how we do it. We try to make order and sense in everything, discuss everything so that we are all on the same page and then put it down in law so that it is fair for all (I am going by the millie run businesses I have worked for in the past as well as the SVA). I just love how we do that in the work force we are creating! Big Grin Heart 

I wonder if your GIs (who were Apollonian's) did something like that too when young?
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#5
Something I've been ruminating on the past few days is that debates in Apollonian/Advancement saecula are centered on ideology while debates in Dionysian/Atonement saecula are centered on culture and social norms (including spirituality). Apollonian ideological debates take place within a cultural consensus while Dionysian debates on culture and social norms take place within an ideological consensus. That is not to say that there is never any ideological divisions in a Dionysian saeculum or cultural divisions in a Apollonian saeculum , but they tend to be subordinate and attached to the dominant divisions. For example, In the Civil War Saeculum the issue of Slavery was nominally an ideological issue, but because it was a Dionysian saeculum the debate was highly moralized and was filtered as being a struggle between the cultural norms of the North and South. Similarily, in Dionysian 2Ts there is plenty of spiritual stuff, but they are mostly re-treads of the previous saeculum and religious concerns tend to be more strictly doctrinal rather than spiritual.

So, you get a pattern that looks like this:

Apollonian Saeculum

Artist: Comes of age in an emerging cultural consensus, feels free to start questioning society's dominant ideologies.
Prophet: Rebels against the dominant ideological consensus of society laid down in the previous Apollonian 4T.
Nomad: Is annoyed by the Prophets' ideological debates and focuses on culture.
Civic: Establishes a new ideological consensus.

Dionysian Saeculum

Artist: Comes of age in an emerging ideological consensus, feels free to start questioning social norms and accepted spiritual truths.
Prophet: Rebels against the dominant cultural consensus of society laid down in the previous Dionysian 4T.
Nomad: Is annoyed by the Prophets' cultural debates and focuses on ideological issues.
Civic: Establishes a new cultural consensus.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#6
(10-06-2016, 07:40 AM)Odin Wrote: Something I've been ruminating on the past few days is that debates in Apollonian/Advancement saecula are centered on ideology while debates in Dionysian/Atonement saecula are centered on culture and social norms (including spirituality). Apollonian ideological debates take place within a cultural consensus while Dionysian debates on culture and social norms take place within an ideological consensus. That is not to say that there is never any ideological divisions in a Dionysian saeculum or cultural divisions in a Apollonian saeculum , but they tend to be subordinate and attached to the dominant divisions. For example, In the Civil War Saeculum the issue of Slavery was nominally an ideological issue, but because it was a Dionysian saeculum the debate was highly moralized and was filtered as being a struggle between the cultural norms of the North and South. Similarily, in Dionysian 2Ts there is plenty of spiritual stuff, but they are mostly re-treads of the previous saeculum and religious concerns tend to be more strictly doctrinal rather than spiritual.

So, you get a pattern that looks like this:

Apollonian Saeculum

Artist: Comes of age in an emerging cultural consensus, feels free to start questioning society's dominant ideologies.
Prophet: Rebels against the dominant ideological consensus of society laid down in the previous Apollonian 4T.
Nomad: Is annoyed by the Prophets' ideological debates and focuses on culture.
Civic: Establishes a new ideological consensus.

Dionysian Saeculum

Artist: Comes of age in an emerging ideological consensus, feels free to start questioning social norms and accepted spiritual truths.
Prophet: Rebels against the dominant cultural consensus of society laid down in the previous Dionysian 4T.
Nomad: Is annoyed by the Prophets' cultural debates and focuses on ideological issues.
Civic: Establishes a new cultural consensus.
Fascinating stuff! Thank you for sharing. I shall run it by Chas and let you know what he says. I believe I am the only Apollonian civic here so let me read what you say about the generations role in an Apollonian saeculum......

Spot on mate spot on. Our boomers gave force and numbers to what the Apollonian silents (in New Zealand) were addressing. By the early 80s they had sorted themselves out and started to make their mark as the dominant generation in power and they took their collective ideology into schools to teach us what they considered right. To be inclusive and to get a taste of cultures around the world so we had a better understanding of it. To have an understanding of climate change and to care for the earth. Within politics is no debate whether left or right etc about any of this culturally and there is no denial of climate change. We are united culturally and on climate change. The debate is how to change our ways effectively. We banned high emission fire burners for instance.

I have heard xers complaining about the smokefree campaign and seen them mutter and walk out of the room when boomers start on an ideological talk if it calls for us to give up on something say, sugar or fatty foods or cigarettes.

As for us apollonian civics we love our community and have shown and continue to show we care with the formation of the sva and showing we can achieve great outward focused feats together. When creating our own businesses the "boss" wants to hear the opinion of all in the team and we are all heard and considered. I know this from experience with working with millie run businesses. It is just the same as the school group except we are now grown ups. The SVA, the millie run businesses and just how we tend to behave in general goes back to how we were raised from the beginning. To consider the group's opinion and form a consensus to work towards. We do not have to debate culture as that was sorted before we were born thanks to our well organized boomers.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#7
I think this link may be what gabrielle is looking for
http://generationaldynamics.com/tftarchi...-00001.htm
well, maybe not....

There's always this one:
http://generationaldynamics.com/tftarchi...-00001.htm
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#8
(09-26-2016, 02:13 PM)gabrielle Wrote:
(09-26-2016, 07:09 AM)Odin Wrote: The last Dionysian Civics were the Gilded and the "Innovate!" theme is definitely obvious with them. Ditto with the Glorious Revolution Generation.

According to S&H, the Gilded generation were nomads and there was no civic generation for that saeculum.  I understand that many among this community follow a different timeline that includes a civic generation, could someone provide a link to where this is detailed?

I believe they actually characterized the Gilded as a cross between a reactive and a civic generation.

For my part, I think that crisis wars occur at too regular a frequency not to be viewed as delimiters of generational cycles.  That would mean there was a shift from adaptive birth years to idealist birth years around 1780.  1780-1822 is much too long for a single generation, and I strongly suspect there was a shift from Idealists to adaptives around 1800.  Lincoln certainly acted more like an adaptive than like an idealist in his approach to the Civil War; an idealist would have made slavery the primary issue from the beginning of the Civil War, whereas Lincoln was initially willing to compromise on the issue of slavery to keep the country together.

To me, that makes the Gilded a civic generation.  And that's consistent with their building the civic institutions of the reconstruction south and the new west.
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#9
I think that's about right, Warren; although I suspect that those generations born before the civil war were all to some degree or another hybrids, because of the sharp shift in the saeculum to a faster rhythm in those times of revolution. The South was lagging the country (as it still does), and so a break into modernity had to happen. That was the Civil War, in effect perhaps uniting the two virtual countries onto the new faster Yankee saeculum, whereas before the aristocratic South may have been on the old slower medieval-renaissance pre-modern schedule. But still, your outline is a very good foundation for mostly-eliminating the anomaly.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#10
I will say for NZ it is broken down into this. This is how an Apollonian saeculum dealt with the emerging culture that was also being similarly debated in America, but they were entering a Dionysian saeculum so they dealt with it in a slightly different way. However with the emergence of the tv around that time the world was shrunk down for NZ and worldwide issues obviously influenced us also. Including yes, America.

Apollonian Saeculum
Artist: Comes of age in an emerging cultural consensus, feels free to start questioning society's dominant ideologies.

*Long drawn out and forgotten broken ties with Maori's and their beliefs of what they were like as well as broken deals from the Treaty of waitangi.
*Questions and rebels against the conservative ideology of how people should behave. Particularly a woman's "place." http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/.../children.../post-war-family Older folk were genuinely freaking out by the sounds of things to the "decline of moral standards.
*Cultural impact from overseas issues which caused our silents to consider how some issues here which would have impacted what I have mentioned above. The ideologies were; traditional families, that gays were viewed a certain way and they should be brought into the mainstream and included, as well as maori's who were viewed as dangerous and not to mix with european kiwi's (sound familiar, America?) Now no i do not have a link as to where i got these ideas from but i noticed it from watching a recently released nz docco called "decades in colour." It told what life was like back then and i tell you by the sounds of things we sure have come a long way. Back in the 50s maoris were not allowed to mix with whites. Certainly not allowed to marry into a white family! Our silents started to question the ideology of a pure white traditional family and believed we should not just go along with that idea but rather include outsiders into the mainstream so hence as the link i provided says they were viewed as a group who caused a "moral decline."

Prophet: Rebels against the dominant ideological consensus of society laid down in the previous Apollonian 4T.
Our boomers listened to the silents and ran with their ideologies full force. I still hear of their ideologies to this day so I will note common themes.
*Vietnam
*Climate Change
*Clean green NZ
*Equality for women and maori's
*Healthy diet
*Taking care of the earth
*Smokefree Campaign
*Greenpeace


That is just a few of the ideologies. Some they still are trying to enforce into law, others are very much sorted. Vietnam protests of course were in the 60s as were many others. These are not disputed although for some like our diets for instance die hard. It is addiction as well as this would include the smokefree campaign. How have they been sorted? They included this mindset into wee ones at the time. They influenced us culturally to be able to change ideology for the future easily. All except for vietnam of course were spoken about in school and us little civics grew up not questioning if it was wrong. They have placed a ban on high emission fire burners to decrease pollution. Cleaning up the rivers is next on the list. There is no dispute but only how to get it done in the best way. Smokefree campaign is surprisingly starting to work. Most smokers are older folk. Millennials who have been educated on this from an early age are less likely to smoke.

Our boomers by comparison to American boomers were way more organized and from my experience they do not dispute cultural issues to the point it gets in the way of progress. Ideologies are discussed and considered from a practical pov then placed into law.

Lets keep in mind Chas's list that he considered for our silents and our boomers.
Apollonian Artist = Amend! So they wanted to amend for long drawn out conflicts with certain people who were considered outsiders and they wanted them to be brought into mainstream and change the ideology of the traditional family.
Apollonian Prophet = Authority & Higher Law!
They ran with the idea and wanted to also address other issues as well which came up as time went by. They were way more collectively organized and collective in their ideals.Then once they started to come into power they turned to schools to create a new mindset within the little millennials on how the world should be ....kids like myself and i tell you when i learned of what life was like overseas i just about fell over myself realizing this debate was still being played out! Our Apollonian prophets also immediately turned to the law and changed the laws to fit around the ideals. One i noted was the smoke ban. Anti smacking law. Laws in place to assure that women and maori are treated equally but it is not just the law that assures we fall in line. Long ago they transformed minds to believe it was right so culturally they also have made their mark to assure it will mostly be followed. Anyway I am off to bed. I will continue with the list tomorrow. Here is a link to where i am getting some of my info from as well as living here (my experiences) and also from the docco Decades in Colour. http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/the-1960s
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Nomad: Is annoyed by the Prophets' ideological debates and focuses on culture.
Apollonian Nomad = Tradition!
Independent and independence nurtures creativity
*They grew up raising themselves due to their parents generation concerned with both having jobs and concerned about materialism.
*What I have witnessed they are fiercely independent and are confused by group work and shy away from it.
Culture focused and tradition becoming brought to light once more in a new way.
*They seem concerned that group work kills creativity. They were the most vocal about Britain hating boomers (going by what they were saying) who wanted to change the nz flag and get rid of the union jack.
*They mixed maori culture with white pakeha culture with hits like Poie and kotahitanga in the 80s and 90s.
Annoyed by prophets ideological debates
*The attitude I have observed is one of annoyance that the boomers want them to give up certain things like smoking cigarettes, eating certain food and other things. They do not like being controlled and they do not think it will work. They look at it as a waste of time.

Civic: Establishes a new ideological consensus.
Apollonian Civic = Law &Order!
I do not know how we compare to American GIs who also were Apollonians but here we go.
ivic: Establishes a new ideological consensus.
Apollonian Civic = Law &Order!
We are still to write our story but I can tell you what it is like. I do not have any sources as the link i have used does not move into the 90s and beyond and i have yet to find anythig that describes our childhood. But here is a description of what we are like.

"GENERATION Y

Generation Y referred to as ‘Nexters’, ‘Millennials’, Generation ‘Why?’ and the ‘Internet Gen’, were born between 1982 and 1994 and are the youngest generation in the workforce today, with most yet to enter.

Generation Y are coming of age during a shift back towards virtue and values, are closer to their parents than Xers, show more concern for religion and community and due to recent economic expansion are more optimistic and positive. As a result they are generally more relaxed and confident in their abilities than previous generations.

Growing up Generation Y was over-supervised with lives packed full of parental attention, structure, chaperones and after school programs leaving very little unplanned free time. As a result they expect employers to provide structure in the workplace and can sometimes lack spontaneity.

Generation Y, like Xers, are highly educated and technologically savvy seeing work that isn’t a learning experience leading to something better as a dead end and to be avoided. Sometimes referred to as the ‘Why’ generation, they are also not afraid to voice their concerns and opinions and question authority. Having a keen sense of fairness and fair play in the workplace, they believe rules are rules and expect bosses to enforce them and not bend them. Though comfortable with authority, generation Y sees that that authority must be competent and have integrity.

Maintaining a healthy balance between their personal and professional lives and valuing family and friends above all else is also paramount to Generation Y. In the workplace the team is very important to Generation Y. They are used to being organised into teams to get things done and being evaluated as a unit. Hence, they are comfortable with being remunerated as a group."
http://www.hrinz.org.nz/.../Knowledge.../A-H/Diversity.aspx Now for my analysis 
Civic: Establishes a new ideological consensus.

Apollonian Civic = Law &Order!

As you can guess our ideal is to strengthen equality and fair play and with it to create an environment of balance, order, and fairness. To allow everyone's voice to be heard and considered. How do I know this? Read the description of us above and also what I have experienced being raised around other millennials and getting to know my own cohorts and our attitude that emerged from how we were raised and the laws that shaped us.
*Generation Y are coming of age during a shift back towards virtue and values
That shift from my experience was of hearing from my elders of qualities that were dying. We were raised accordingly to fill that role going by what we learned. To be group orientated. To care about the elderly and those in need. To care about the community. To believe in (look at the ideals that boomers were all about above.) Now the difference again compared to America is that we are one nation, as well as i did not experience a cultural divide on these issues. It was just accepted as great ideals for us to be raised to believe in.

As adults that way of thinking has not changed although we are questioning certain things like attitudes towards medicinal marijuana especially as other things like alcohol and cigarettes are very much legal. Things like this are being analyzed and rationalized.Also as adults it is changing how some new start up businesses are run. Everyone within the team gets their say and bosses no longer boss people around from my experience with millie run businesses. We all get our say and are on an equal level.

"Growing up Generation Y was over-supervised with lives packed full of parental attention, structure, chaperones and after school programs leaving very little unplanned free time. As a result they expect employers to provide structure in the workplace and can sometimes lack spontaneity."
Illegal to leave a child alone till 16. Our day was structured into subjects then the bus would come to pick us up and take us to "manual." Which was the name of the after school program which took us to another school and we had a selection of classes to choose from. We had to take them all but we could choose which ones to take first to last. Then I would head home to study. Free time if i had it was planned when i would have it too. When i entered the work force i was horrified to learn it was not a structured environment. I was not given a break down of what i would be doing for the day and i got in trouble with my boomer boss for that. I then asked her to please give me a structure. When she did there was no more hassle.


Anyway I think that about does it for the analysis of all of the generations and how we fit into the saeeculum. Culture was settled long ago and we just want to strengthen it and live up to it. We have shown how we value these ideals by helping the community en masse as well as the sva also coming together to replant trees and encourage people in the community to do something positive for the community like keep the elderly company, plant a tree or two, pick up rubbish, help people across the street, help out at a homeless shelter or animal shelter. We still keep this up to this day. I recently watched some mickey rooney movies of when he was little. I suggest you all watch mickey mcguire movies and see what i mean. Except we also organize ourselves through the groups page on fb too. But it is the same method. I would be interested in people's thoughts. I have a few more bits of info on what our boomers ideals were and how they solved it.

While studying I should note one of the boomer ideals here was to make NZ nuclear free.
USS Buchanan refused entry to NZ
Cartoon about arrival of USS Buchanan

The newly elected Labour government had made clear its intention to pursue policies that would establish New Zealand as a nuclear-free country, including by banning ships that were nuclear-powered or potentially nuclear-armed. This was put to the test in February when the aging guided-missile destroyer USS Buchanan was denied entry when the Americans followed their usual policy by neither confirming nor denying that it was nuclear-capable. They hoped that the unlikelihood that the Buchanan was nuclear-armed would allow it to slip under the political radar. But for the New Zealand government, ‘near-uncertainty was not enough’. Within days Washington severed visible intelligence and military ties with New Zealand and downgraded political and diplomatic exchanges. US Secretary of State George Schultz – who felt he had been misled by Lange at a meeting immediately after the election – confirmed that the United States would no longer guarantee New Zealand’s security. The ANZUS treaty structure remained in place, however.

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/the-1980s/1985
[url=http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nzhistory.net.nz%2Fculture%2Fthe-1980s%2F1985&h=TAQH6xXsC]
Also this is what I was talking about regarding our boomers wanting to finally sort out the treaty violations beginning from 1840 to come to a period of cultural peace or at least perceived cultural peace so we could begin to work at that equality ideal as well as a merging of cultures.
"Treaty of Waitangi Amendment Act
Whina Cooper

In 1975 the Treaty of Waitangi Act established the Waitangi Tribunal as an ongoing commission of inquiry to hear Māori grievances against the Crown concerning breaches of the Treaty. The legislation limited the scope of inquiry to grievances occurring after 1975. The Tribunal could make findings of fact and recommendations, but not binding determinations. The 1985 amendment enabled the Tribunal to investigate Treaty claims dating back to 1840. It could now commission research and appoint legal counsel for claimants. The hearing and settlement of historical claims became a major focus of Māori energies, and many landmark settlements and decisions were made as a result."
This is why when i was a child it was percieved to be a time of cultural calm and a merge within schools.

This was another move towards equality and as it was agreed by the majority at last these changes could be made for the ideal f equality. In 1986 gay relationships were decriminalized and then the very next year
"Māori becomes official language
Maori language school class, 1981

Concern for the future of the Māori language led to a Te Reo Māori claim to the Waitangi Tribunal in 1985. This asserted that te reo was a taonga (treasure) that the Crown (government) was obliged to protect under the Treaty of Waitangi. The Waitangi Tribunal found in favour of the claimants and recommended a number of legislative and policy remedies. The Maori Language Act which came into force on 1 August 1987 made te reo Māori an official language of New Zealand. Te Komihana Mo Te Reo Māori – the Māori Language Commission – was established to promote the use of Māori as a living language and an ordinary means of communication."

Can you imagine native indian language becoming the official language of America?

As a result this affected all of my generation when we were just starting to enter schools as we learned english AND Maori as well as both cultures merged together.

I suppose with all of these laws and bans from a dionysian perspective it would seem nz is almost like a dictatorship. But for us, it is safety, equality, and is also to care for the earth and that is worth "less freedom."

I would be fascinated by opinion of this if anyone bothers to read all of the info i sifted through to show you all how an Apollonian run part of the world dealt with the same or similar concerns that you all did and reacted and acted differently to it.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#11
This is a great summary, thanks, Tara! And yes, all those laws and bans would not go over well in most parts of the US.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#12
(10-08-2016, 06:50 PM)Odin Wrote: This is a great summary, thanks, Tara! And yes, all those laws and bans would not go over well in most parts of the US.

No problem. I thought it would give you guys an idea about the differences as well as what may happen as you guys enter an Apollonian saeculum. Your artists are the first set of Apollonians. I would be quite interested to see a comparison to see how America fit in with the Apollonian saeculum to compare with ours in NZ. I think it is useful for Dionysians to see an Apollonian in another light. I find when I describe an Apollonain set up people tend to think it is controlling. To us, it isn't. The reason is that the culture as it stands now is felt to be sorted. With that in order it is easier to set laws around it so that it is clear this is how we want our country to be run. It is also set around our ideals so we can act on them. For instance the anti smacking law, the smoke free campaign, the ban of high emission fire burners to name a few. This is how we achieve goals. This is how we act together on our ideals. We are not controlled if we agree with it and want to do our bit to see a better day here with action not just words. It may be hard for Dionysians to understand but that is how it is for us. It may also help you guys to understand your GI's better too. They had their own ideals too that they worked towards too to achieve what they thought was an orderly world where things worked (according to how they wanted it to work).
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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