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How to end the 4th turning while word 'sin' is losing meaning?
#21
(10-02-2018, 07:51 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: 'Physicalism' sounds much like materialist ontology -- the idea that reality reduces to interactions of subatomic particles and quasi-particles. Thus a photon strikes a sub-atomic particle, and the world changes. The problem is that we cannot so understand the world because the mathematics and physics  cannot so reduce reality to such -- too many variables for too few equations..

I agree that you are on the right track there. As I see it, such ideas as "particles" and "striking" are metaphors that creep in unnoticed into scientific theories, and are based on our limited personal experience of our body feeling other objects. But what is actually happening is more subtle than our usual assumptions.

Quote:The 'Soft Right' is practically in hibernation, and the Hard Right is just completely wrong in deciding that ideology overpowers any physical reality or human experience. It's as if one is arguing with young-Earth creationists: pseudoscience has nothing to offer. Even if biological evolution has unpleasant moral consequences, it is up to us to find moral solutions that defy 'natural' tendencies. We must find ways to resist the temptation to do evil.

I basically agree. The chief way I know about to deal with temptation is greater awareness. This is hard to develop, pin down and remember, but if one is aware of one's habitual impulses, one can make a different choice if it's better for us and our fellow beings.


Quote:Socrates is usually right, but I am satisfied that most offenders know that society disapproves of what they do. They conceal evidence and intimidate victims and witnesses. They flee prosecution. If I point to an image of Saddam Hussein and say 'that man is evil personified' then to the extent that I am unlike Saddam Hussein I do not point at myself.

People must beware of projection in which they say things about those that they hate that are true about themselves. Everything that Hitler said about the Jews was true -- about himself!

You seem to have contradicted yourself in the above two paragraphs! But I liked your other statements OK.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#22
(10-02-2018, 11:55 AM)Theojm Wrote: It is, it break one more bridge towards the religious people.

I hope this thread isn't anymore used to discuss about religious or spiritual things, not even sinfulness. Confused  The point is communication and the erosion of the word 'sin', not faith, spirituality or . There are other threads for those topics. I hope there would be some suggestions on how to replace word 'sin' with other words.

Or the possibility of a new concept that would combine sin+moral+ethics and it should be something flexible. What kind of word would be appealing if the 4th turning manifests info something that totally divides citizens in the US and EU? If people at the same time need security, both physical and mental. What would soothe the minds of people, what could be something we could get all behind?

Or just wait for the grey champion who comes up with a slogan and that's it?

Perhaps, the word "destructive" could be used in place of "sinful". Every sin destroys something: either the sinner's own mind (drugs), the family (casual sex), trust between members of society (fraud), material objects (vandalism) or life (murder).

The goal of morality is to increase extropy. But the opposite is not necessarily entropy, as pop sci-fi wants us to think. Very high entropy, as in plasma, is not conducive to evolution of intelligence and personality. But so is very low entropy, as in a crystal.

The common-sense term for something that increases extropy is constructive. Moral action is constructive action. Sinful action is the opposite, destructive action. Some people disagree, pointing out that destroying a virus or a terrorist organization is a moral action. True, but only because it results in avoiding much greater destruction of human life.

Eric the Green Wrote:Spirit is our consciousness. Without consciousness, nothing can be presumed to exist. We only know anything because we are conscious on some level. Too many eager beaver inquirers among millennials today have forgotten this lesson from the Awakening, or assumed it can be shoved under the rug. This deprives them of the basis for any knowledge. Consciousness studies is basic to any understanding.

If these groundbreaking discoveries were made under the influence of LSD, no doubt that millennials or Xers don't treat them seriously.

Quote:Buddhist concepts are more useful than Christian ones in talking about human behavior. They may not be perfect either, but we'd be wise to expand our language beyond religions of The West

I'm not an expert in Buddhism, but there are good reasons to prefer Christianity:
-Buddhism encourages meditative self-absorption. Christianity encourages active love of other people.
-Buddhist concept of reincarnation can encourage indifference to suffering. If a person suffers in this life, it is a result of bad behaviour in a previous life.
-Buddhism teaches that there is no self. Now, respect for human individuality is a great achievement of Western civilization. Buddhism wants us to throw it out of the window.

Now, I'm open to correction because it's very probable I misunderstand Buddhist teachings. I only criticize the interpretations I'm familiar with.
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#23
(10-04-2018, 08:32 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:
(10-02-2018, 11:55 AM)Theojm Wrote: It is, it break one more bridge towards the religious people.

I hope this thread isn't anymore used to discuss about religious or spiritual things, not even sinfulness. Confused  The point is communication and the erosion of the word 'sin', not faith, spirituality or . There are other threads for those topics. I hope there would be some suggestions on how to replace word 'sin' with other words.

Or the possibility of a new concept that would combine sin+moral+ethics and it should be something flexible. What kind of word would be appealing if the 4th turning manifests info something that totally divides citizens in the US and EU? If people at the same time need security, both physical and mental. What would soothe the minds of people, what could be something we could get all behind?

Or just wait for the grey champion who comes up with a slogan and that's it?

Perhaps, the word "destructive" could be used in place of "sinful". Every sin destroys something: either the sinner's own mind (drugs), the family (casual sex), trust between members of society (fraud), material objects (vandalism) or life (murder).

The goal of morality is to increase extropy. But the opposite is not necessarily entropy, as pop sci-fi wants us to think. Very high entropy, as in plasma, is not conducive to evolution of intelligence and personality. But so is very low entropy, as in a crystal.

That is a good, worthy clarification. "Sin" as a concept has varied greatly in time. Of the classic Seven Deadly Sins (anger, greed, gluttony, sloth, lust, envy, and vainglory), a well-running capitalist system can use most of them. Indeed, capitalism could never thrive without the greed that encourages people to invest and to take miserable jobs necessary and productive, envy that causes people to compare themselves to others and see themselves inadequate if they lack the consumer goodies, sloth that manifests itself in leisure as an enriching alternative to an incessant grind, and even lust (the jewelry, floral, and perfume trades would practically die without the sex drive that makes romantic love possible). An American soldier could hardly enter Buchenwald, Dachau, or Mauthausen as a liberator in the spring of 1945 without anger after seeing the gross inhumanity of Nazi cruelty only if abnormal. I obviously was not there, but I would have wanted do great brutality to Nazis culpable of the horrors therein. Anger done against one's own or against innocent people is one component of wholesome patriotism.

Cruelty, cowardice, exploitation, ignorance, and deceit seem more unambiguously destructive. Capitalism is not going away, so we might have it work well so that it can do some real good. Gluttony (including excess drink) really is destructive. as is vainglory. So a modern theologian might contemplate seven destructive sins -- sins that debase people.

Cruelty, cowardice, exploitation, ignorance, deceit, gluttony, and vainglory? I have seven destructive sins right there.


Quote:The common-sense term for something that increases extropy is constructive. Moral action is constructive action. Sinful action is the opposite, destructive action. Some people disagree, pointing out that destroying a virus or a terrorist organization is a moral action. True, but only because it results in avoiding much greater destruction of human life.


Yes. Most of us must make compromises. Working people to death on starvation rations sounds like the norm of Nazis, and I can imagine that if Dante Aligheri had written his Inferno in modern times, he would have a thoroughly-horrible circle of Hell just for them -- if he didn't also put Stalinist criminals in their midst.

Quote:
Eric the Green Wrote:Spirit is our consciousness. Without consciousness, nothing can be presumed to exist. We only know anything because we are conscious on some level. Too many eager beaver inquirers among millennials today have forgotten this lesson from the Awakening, or assumed it can be shoved under the rug. This deprives them of the basis for any knowledge. Consciousness studies is basic to any understanding.

If these groundbreaking discoveries were made under the influence of LSD, no doubt that millennials or Xers don't treat them seriously.

I would put drugs largely in the category of gluttony, still a deadly and destructive sin.
Quote: (Eric)
Buddhist concepts are more useful than Christian ones in talking about human behavior. They may not be perfect either, but we'd be wise to expand our language beyond religions of The West

Quote:I'm not an expert in Buddhism, but there are good reasons to prefer Christianity:

-Buddhism encourages meditative self-absorption. Christianity encourages active love of other people.
-Buddhist concept of reincarnation can encourage indifference to suffering. If a person suffers in this life, it is a result of bad behaviour in a previous life.
-Buddhism teaches that there is no self. Now, respect for human individuality is a great achievement of Western civilization. Buddhism wants us to throw it out of the window.

Now, I'm open to correction because it's very probable I misunderstand Buddhist teachings. I only criticize the interpretations I'm familiar with.

Christianity also encourages meditative self-absorption, at least within monasticism in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Buddhism, like Christianity, encourages human charity. I would consider the Calvinist conception that people enduring very bad luck as evidence that God has damned them conducive to cruelty. Calvinist theology might see slavery as an excuse for exploitation as evidence that slaves are not blessed (or predestined to Salvation) instead of as something wrong in itself. When New York (settled by Calvinist Dutch Reformed Christians) abolished slavery (New York was much later than Pennsylvania (Quakers, who excoriated slavery as ungodly cruelty) and New England states (Puritans saw slavery as an encouragement of sloth and indulgence incompatible with their worldview), some of the slave-masters emigrated with 'their' slaves to the southwestern frontier, as in Mississippi.

Respect for Self is essential to liberalism, but is possible to have a politically-liberal country with a conformist social order. Japan is no haven for rebels, but I am not satisfied that rebels are reliable forces for good. Japan is the worst country among the most developed countries in which to be a criminal; it treats criminal offenders about as harshly as China treats political prisoners. Japan seems to be a good haven for legitimate artists, its greatest from Hokusai to Kurosawa being peers of Western artists*. (South Korea is much more Christian than Japan, so that is not a good comparison). It has also been a paradise for entrepreneurs, also a very individualistic activity, in recent years before the depression of the 1990s.

I am satisfied that people can fit their theological assumptions to whatever they want to believe about economics, foreign policy, or social organization.

*The Japanese have no peers of such composers as Monteverdi, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, et al.... well, the Japanese seem to have accepted the great Western masters of composition as their own.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#24
(10-04-2018, 08:32 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:
Eric the Green Wrote:Spirit is our consciousness. Without consciousness, nothing can be presumed to exist. We only know anything because we are conscious on some level. Too many eager beaver inquirers among millennials today have forgotten this lesson from the Awakening, or assumed it can be shoved under the rug. This deprives them of the basis for any knowledge. Consciousness studies is basic to any understanding.

If these groundbreaking discoveries were made under the influence of LSD, no doubt that millennials or Xers don't treat them seriously.

LSD helped open many people to higher consciousness. There's no reason not to "treat them seriously." However, though it was a stimulus to the Awakening, these "discoveries" are millennia old. All that happened was that these "discoveries" entered Western consciousness to an unprecedented degree, and certain human potential and new age movements and their practices opened up higher consciousness to most people for the first time. Before this, it was mostly limited to a few initiates. However, the New Thought and Theosophy movements also did open up many people for a while to higher consciousness in the previous awakening (circa 1885-1908), and so did the romantic movement and transcendentalism in the awakening before that.

Quote:
Quote:Buddhist concepts are more useful than Christian ones in talking about human behavior. They may not be perfect either, but we'd be wise to expand our language beyond religions of The West

I'm not an expert in Buddhism, but there are good reasons to prefer Christianity:
-Buddhism encourages meditative self-absorption. Christianity encourages active love of other people.
-Buddhist concept of reincarnation can encourage indifference to suffering. If a person suffers in this life, it is a result of bad behaviour in a previous life.
-Buddhism teaches that there is no self. Now, respect for human individuality is a great achievement of Western civilization. Buddhism wants us to throw it out of the window.

Now, I'm open to correction because it's very probable I misunderstand Buddhist teachings. I only criticize the interpretations I'm familiar with.

Yes, I'm sure there's more to Buddhism than you are familiar with, but you should have become more familiar with it through my previous posts, and understood its application to the issue of sin and therapy. Buddha was the master psychologist; that's the point. He offered a diagnosis and a cure, rather than a requirement to believe in order to be saved. In that way, Buddhism, even though older than Christianity, is far more modern and applicable to modern life and experience than Christianity.

Meditation is necessary to higher consciousness. This was a key discovery of the Awakening for the people (though obviously rooted in both Oriental and Western/Christian spirituality going back millennia), and if millennials and Xers sweep it under the rug, then they have lost touch with a key aspect of life. This failure of generations to learn from the past is why the saeculum is dysfunctional. I'm sure the generations during the Awakening forgot some lessons of the past too.

Meditation is not self-absorption. This issue was in fact debated quite a bit during the Awakening years, and many of us thought the debate had been dealt with. But now the younger people such as yourself, having not engaged with meditation, have gone back to that same false idea that the civic parents of the boomers had. Again, the saeculum fails because we do not build on past experience.

Meditation quiets the mind and opens awareness. It is something for which the individual is responsible, but also encouraged in a helpful community. But you have said that responsibility is important. What results is control of impulses, both physical and mental, and realization of connection to others and the world. And don't forget too that, although you say Christianity encourages active love of other people (which is certainly debatable, since its chief result appears to be close-minded fanaticism and cruel conservatism), you forget that those who practiced Christianity deeply, also practiced meditation. The techniques may differ somewhat, but the goal and result is much the same.

The Buddhist concept of the bodhi sattva contradicts what you say about Buddhism. The Buddhist realizes compassion, and the master who achieves enlightenment vows to continue to help others until all sentient beings are enlightened.

Doctrines of reincarnation, and doctrines of dissolving the self, are rather contradictory. If there's no self, then what reincarnates? Buddha himself didn't require belief in these specific doctrines. His principle teaching was how to overcome suffering. He made his teachings and practices available to all classes for the first time. Enlightenment and liberation is something to discover and experience for yourself. All this is quite the opposite of indifference. I don't understand your concept that if you attribute suffering to a previous life, that this causes indifference. The goal of their old beliefs, which really came from Hinduism, was to escape from the round of birth and death. The goal is to relieve suffering, so that does not mean indifference to it. If you find enlightenment, then you don't have to reincarnate; that's the traditional goal.

Hinduism can be more like Christianity, when devotees follow a guru who imparts love and higher consciousness to you in much the same way Christ did to his disciples or to those today who accept him as their savior. But Hinduism is very diverse.

Buddhism is a dialogue, rather than a set of beliefs. Buddhists have different ideas. Some may deny the self, while others do not. I agree that the Western value on individuality is important, although it has its severe problems (such as today's fanatical libertarian ideology that has severely handcuffed and regressed our own politics in the USA). The core concept that makes sense to me is that we are not just individuals, but are always connected to all of reality and the whole. Myself I prefer holism, which conceives of reality as composed of interdependent wholes within wholes. It is separation and isolation into a distinct self that is the delusion, not selfhood itself.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#25
(10-04-2018, 07:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(10-04-2018, 08:32 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:
Eric the Green Wrote:Spirit is our consciousness. Without consciousness, nothing can be presumed to exist. We only know anything because we are conscious on some level. Too many eager beaver inquirers among millennials today have forgotten this lesson from the Awakening, or assumed it can be shoved under the rug. This deprives them of the basis for any knowledge. Consciousness studies is basic to any understanding.


Quote:Rags
Eric, Millies are of the type hero generation. They're supposed to do, not think. Big Grin They get their knowledge from Faceplant, FlueTube, and Twatter.

If these groundbreaking discoveries were made under the influence of LSD, no doubt that millennials or Xers don't treat them seriously.


Quote:Rags
Xer's? Dunno, but if you're close to the line, probably not. Morning glory seeds make for some really nice trips man. I get a huge assed chemical formula with benzene rings, lines, furans, etc. in all colors of the rainbow, with little colored dots waving back and forth in the lines of said chemical formulas. Cool That's me, in full living color lol. I'm a huge assed mass of molecules/atoms switching between dots and waves that sway too and fro. Time goes back and forth as well.  IOW, it makes better living through chemistry sorta real.


Quote:Eric
LSD helped open many people to higher consciousness. There's no reason not to "treat them seriously." However, though it was a stimulus to the Awakening, these "discoveries" are millennia old. All that happened was that these "discoveries" entered Western consciousness to an unprecedented degree, and certain human potential and new age movements and their practices opened up higher consciousness to most people for the first time. Before this, it was mostly limited to a few initiates. However, the New Thought and Theosophy movements also did open up many people for a while to higher consciousness in the previous awakening (circa 1885-1908), and so did the romantic movement and transcendentalism in the awakening before that.


Quote:Rags
Shoot yeah man. Just put on the right jams , relax, and take it all in. There's other stuff like peyote, morning glory seeds, and ketamine for mind expansion. Always remember and never forget, don't trip and drive.

Quote:
Quote:Eric
Buddhist concepts are more useful than Christian ones in talking about human behavior. They may not be perfect either, but we'd be wise to expand our language beyond religions of The West
Bill The Piper
I'm not an expert in Buddhism, but there are good reasons to prefer Christianity:
-Buddhism encourages meditative self-absorption. Christianity encourages active love of other people.
-Buddhist concept of reincarnation can encourage indifference to suffering. If a person suffers in this life, it is a result of bad behaviour in a previous life.
-Buddhism teaches that there is no self. Now, respect for human individuality is a great achievement of Western civilization. Buddhism wants us to throw it out of the window.

Now, I'm open to correction because it's very probable I misunderstand Buddhist teachings. I only criticize the interpretations I'm familiar with.


Quote:Rags
All things human have their faults, man.
I live in the Bible Belt so I have a thing about Fundie Christianity.

It's intolerant of other folks' religions at least here. They whine about Sharia law, while they themselves have precepts which match Sharia law a whole lot.
They're moralizing busybodies who like to tell other folks how to live their lives.
They don't care about mother earth. To them it's OK to pollute to no end because God to them says earth belongs to humans to whatever they want to with it.
They think the earth is only 6000 years old and humans rode dinosaurs. Yes, we have folks who think this fake news is real.
Prosperity gospel is fraud clad in cloth.
They bother other folks by insisting on sharing their stuff with you even though you want nothing to do with it.
Folks like Catholics and mainstream Protestants are OK though. They don't do that kind of thing.

<snip Eric's stuff about Buddhism. >
---Value Added Cool
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#26
(10-04-2018, 07:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Buddha was the master psychologist; that's the point. He offered a diagnosis and a cure

This seems an important aspect and I remember it from your previous posts. In the last saeculum, we got so preoccupied with psychological concepts that we forgot about personal responsibility. Sometimes destructive behaviour is caused by mental disease. But above all, it's caused by wilful blindness to moral values.

Quote:The Buddhist concept of the bodhi sattva contradicts what you say about Buddhism. The Buddhist realizes compassion, and the master who achieves enlightenment vows to continue to help others until all sentient beings are enlightened.

I agree that compassion is usually a good thing, but it must be balanced with justice. Compassion without justice makes one accept evil actions because someone had an unhappy childhood or something. Justice without compassion is probably something you grew up hating.

BTW doesn't the master ideal contradict the ideal of enlightenment or nirvana? Nirvana seems to mean absence of all desires, including the desire to help others.

Quote:Meditation is not self-absorption. This issue was in fact debated quite a bit during the Awakening years, and many of us thought the debate had been dealt with. But now the younger people such as yourself, having not engaged with meditation, have gone back to that same false idea that the civic parents of the boomers had.

I've actually tried meditating, and found it boring and pointless. Yes, it helps you relax, but a glass of wine does too Big Grin
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#27
(10-05-2018, 05:43 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:
(10-04-2018, 07:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Buddha was the master psychologist; that's the point. He offered a diagnosis and a cure

This seems an important aspect and I remember it from your previous posts. In the last saeculum, we got so preoccupied with psychological concepts that we forgot about personal responsibility. Sometimes destructive behaviour is caused by mental disease. But above all, it's caused by wilful blindness to moral values.

Quote:The Buddhist concept of the bodhi sattva contradicts what you say about Buddhism. The Buddhist realizes compassion, and the master who achieves enlightenment vows to continue to help others until all sentient beings are enlightened.

I agree that compassion is usually a good thing, but it must be balanced with justice. Compassion without justice makes one accept evil actions because someone had an unhappy childhood or something. Justice without compassion is probably something you grew up hating.

BTW doesn't the master ideal contradict the ideal of enlightenment or nirvana? Nirvana seems to mean absence of all desires, including the desire to help others.

Quote:Meditation is not self-absorption. This issue was in fact debated quite a bit during the Awakening years, and many of us thought the debate had been dealt with. But now the younger people such as yourself, having not engaged with meditation, have gone back to that same false idea that the civic parents of the boomers had.

I've actually tried meditating, and found it boring and pointless. Yes, it helps you relax, but a glass of wine does too Big Grin

A good, wide-ranging author to look further into. Annanpour interviewed him on PBS yesterday





Playlist: https://youtu.be/xHHb7R3kx40?list=PLfc2W...HTvGWAJytR

So much better than the technological utopias which millennials and the civic parents of boomers are (were) so fond of, and dominates that website you steered me to. Lots of consider besides tech shaping the years ahead.

Technology is a two-edged sword, and millennials tend to defer to it as the source of progress. The point he made on PBS is that we might change ourselves technologically before we even understand our potential as original homo sapiens.

Meditation is not easy. Personally, it was curiosity that led me into exploring spiritual ideas and experiences. It is about learning to observe yourself and your reality. There is more to learn that what a science experiment can tell you; direct cleansing of your own experience teaches much, and adds to your power to exercize your will to do the right and moral things. This is because the cause of "suffering" according to the Buddha is "craving." And that is equivalent to the Christian term "temptation," which is entirely relevant to your point about taking responsibility. 

Normally we are NOT responsible precisely because we don't know how to exercize our will and awareness. We can't just tell ourselves to be moral. We need to take possession of ourselves and learn even to be able to choose. We need to be aware of our cravings (impulses, amygdala, emotions, addictions, appetites, fears, clingings, etc). Craving is often mis-translated as "desire," but the Dalai Lama pointed out that we need desire to lead our life. Nirvana just means the cessation of craving, which results in enlightenment. "Mastery" in this context is not domination of others, but repossession of our awareness and our will.

"The real revolution is the tools to re-engineer the world inside us" -- Yuval Noah Harari
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#28
(10-05-2018, 10:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "The real revolution is the tools to re-engineer the world inside us" -- Yuval Noah Harari

That tool is communication, communication is key. We still don't understand our brains, there is nothing to re-engineer yet with anything else than communication. We will get there one day, but we can't re-engineer something we don't understand. Only communication is able to re-engineer our thoughts. Our brain goes through this communication just like it goes through visual input data, and combines it with what is previously known.

And since the word 'sin' is not available for common use, we've lost a part of our common communication, which only makes things more harder. The word 'shame' is now being used to tell others that something is wrong. But it is a smaller word than 'sin'.

'Sin' is more objective, 'shame' is more subjective. You cannot find common ground with a word that only blames and does not offer much room for error, which is the definition of 'shame'. 'Shame' doesn't offer the chance for salvation (in a societal way, not a religious salvation), it just stigmatizes people. And surprise surprise, stigma is the social motivator in a fourth turning (page 105 in the Fourth Turning book). At one point there has to be a unification, and 'sin' offers a way out, 'shame' leaves people scarred for life.

At one point there has to be a way out, and without 'sin', finding that path has become even more difficult that in the previous cycles when it was available for use. As a tool.
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#29
(10-08-2018, 01:47 AM)Theojm Wrote:
(10-05-2018, 10:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "The real revolution is the tools to re-engineer the world inside us" -- Yuval Noah Harari

That tool is communication, communication is key. We still don't understand our brains, there is nothing to re-engineer yet with anything else than communication. We will get there one day, but we can't re-engineer something we don't understand. Only communication is able to re-engineer our thoughts. Our brain goes through this communication just like it goes through visual input data, and combines it with what is previously known.

And since the word 'sin' is not available for common use, we've lost a part of our common communication, which only makes things more harder. The word 'shame' is now being used to tell others that something is wrong. But it is a smaller word than 'sin'.

'Sin' is more objective, 'shame' is more subjective. You cannot find common ground with a word that only blames and does not offer much room for error, which is the definition of 'shame'. 'Shame' doesn't offer the chance for salvation (in a societal way, not a religious salvation), it just stigmatizes people. And surprise surprise, stigma is the social motivator in a fourth turning (page 105 in the Fourth Turning book). At one point there has to be a unification, and 'sin' offers a way out, 'shame' leaves people scarred for life.

At one point there has to be a way out, and without 'sin', finding that path has become even more difficult that in the previous cycles when it was available for use. As a tool.

The "communication" involved in re-engineering the world inside us, is self-observation. That requires turning OFF language and NOT communicating with others. It means shutting off the voices inside us that are programming us. That's what Mr. Harai said, and he agrees with me on that. We need to develop ourselves before we turn ourselves into cyborgs and don't even know what our natural abilities are. Our brains are not our consciousness. That is just an assumption of the materialist paradigm. You will never cut open a brain and find consciousness in it. The one doing the looking, is consciousness. Not the object looked at. That is a fundamental obstacle to materialist objectivist science. It is major fail. It's called the hard problem, and can never be solved it's so hard, because it's based on a fundamental philosophical error. 

The word sin is still in common use; I don't know what you mean. Shame is actually a larger word, but it is socially determined, and yes probably about blaming, and thus an inferior word to sin, which really just means making a mistake (if understood correctly). But sin is also inadequate for the reasons I gave. It will not unify people around it; too many people object to it. It's too associated with authoritarian religion. Maybe you can get agreement in red states, but they are hopelessly and pathetically backward. Diagnosis, and the cure of spiritual and ethical practice and learning, is the correct term, and the correct tool to create moral virtue. There probably is no other tool.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#30
(10-08-2018, 02:42 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The "communication" involved in re-engineering the world inside us, is self-observation. That requires turning OFF language and NOT communicating with others.... It means shutting off the voices inside us that are programming us....

Yes, but you still need language to communicate with yourself. Without words (or other ways of thinking) there are no thoughts. Communication is not only eternal, it is also internal. So basically I agree with you, but to gather new information, you MUST communicate with the outer world. Only after that can you self-observe, once you have gathered enough information to do that. So I guess we agree on this one on some level, but self-observation doesn't produce any (new) information without some input first. We have to learn to think, as we have to think to learn. About the world and ourselves. (But lets no continue on this path, as we basically agree on this subject with some variations. Talking about consciousness is not the way to go either, we're still so far from discovering the truth on that subject, and speculation without empirical evidence would bog down this thread...)


(10-08-2018, 02:42 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The word sin is still in common use; I don't know what you mean.

Word 'sin' has lost its credibility during the last 500 years. Science & moral philosophy have taken over much of its tasks. It is not a word we can gather around anymore. Some groups can, most can't anymore. Religions have lost their hold of people, as you basically state here:


(10-08-2018, 02:42 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's too associated with authoritarian religion.

So we agree on this. But how can we overcome this? Common religious cultural values are much lost, what can bounce western societies back to common values? The Gray Champion? What tools will he use to do it, how can he instill the new values into people if 'sin' isn't available to use? Human rights is one aspect, but it's not enough, as human values are violated every day in so many places. Human rights do not move, they're supposed to be universal and unchangeable, so they're too rigid and not easily explainable in a word or slogan.

An external threat is always a good way to unite a people. If no such thing arises in the net 10 years, what else is there left than civil war or revolution of some kind for many countries like USA, Brazil, Poland, Hungary, Italy. And Turkey, that is one barrel of gunpowder just waiting to go off...
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#31
(10-08-2018, 04:27 AM)Theojm Wrote:
(10-08-2018, 02:42 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The "communication" involved in re-engineering the world inside us, is self-observation. That requires turning OFF language and NOT communicating with others.... It means shutting off the voices inside us that are programming us....

Yes, but you still need language to communicate with yourself. Without words (or other ways of thinking) there are no thoughts. Communication is not only eternal, it is also internal. So basically I agree with you, but to gather new information, you MUST communicate with the outer world. Only after that can you self-observe, once you have gathered enough information to do that. So I guess we agree on this one on some level, but self-observation doesn't produce any (new) information without some input first. We have to learn to think, as we have to think to learn. About the world and ourselves. (But lets not continue on this path, as we basically agree on this subject with some variations. Talking about consciousness is not the way to go either, we're still so far from discovering the truth on that subject, and speculation without empirical evidence would bog down this thread...)

Actually, the mind that uses language cannot ever understand itself. It is hopeless. Words try to capture reality piece by piece, one at a time, while reality is everything all together. To use our minds, we need to let our brains work. The ancients understood consciousness a lot more than today's neurologists. To get into touch with reality, silence is the way. That comes first, and then learning and communicating about the world is best opened to us.





"To a mind that is still the whole universe surrenders." -Lao Tzu

More Alan Watts on Taoism
https://youtu.be/Iv9zocKASsM

Quote:Word 'sin' has lost its credibility during the last 500 years. Science & moral philosophy have taken over much of its tasks. It is not a word we can gather around anymore. Some groups can, most can't anymore. Religions have lost their hold of people, as you basically state here:


(10-08-2018, 02:42 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's too associated with authoritarian religion.

So we agree on this. But how can we overcome this? Common religious cultural values are much lost, what can bounce western societies back to common values? The Gray Champion? What tools will he use to do it, how can he instill the new values into people if 'sin' isn't available to use? Human rights is one aspect, but it's not enough, as human values are violated every day in so many places. Human rights do not move, they're supposed to be universal and unchangeable, so they're too rigid and not easily explainable in a word or slogan.

An external threat is always a good way to unite a people. If no such thing arises in the net 10 years, what else is there left than civil war or revolution of some kind for many countries like USA, Brazil, Poland, Hungary, Italy. And Turkey, that is one barrel of gunpowder just waiting to go off...

The sixties/seventies Awakening was the way. The counter-culture and the new age movement has been forgotten and dismissed by Xers and millies, unfortunately, but it brought Buddhist and other esoteric approaches into our culture and updated them. As Western authoritarian religious words and ideas have lost credibility over the last 500 years, and especially since the previous Awakening of 120 years ago or so, and the world wars that followed, we entered a cultural vaccuum filled by commerce and pleasure-seeking. The future source of common values is the esoteric level of religion that lies at the root of all religion, philosophy and knowledge in the world. We have entered a world civilization as of 126 years ago. It will take several saecula for this new world culture to become common to all. But that is the only way forward. The West will open up to non-western sources of wisdom, and to its own esoteric and philosophic roots as well, just as The East catches up with The West in physical and commercial proficiencies and respect for human rights. It's a long process, but if we don't blow it too badly (as we are doing now), it will unfold.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#32
Eric, your ideas are interesting but you make assumptions about the future for hundreds of years, which is extremely difficult without true knowledge of the origins of the 80-year cycle. You provide little factual information or coherent new theories/ideas we could debate about, which makes this discussion a bit too vague to be truly productive. I understand that you have a world view with strong stances, but this is not very fruitful to this conversation to just state your views. I guessed most of them many days ago anyways, and I pretty accurately predicted your previous answer too... So I hope you can present some new views to my suggestions and questions, otherwise your answers don't provide much value.

I know this sounded wayyy too harsh, but I'm trying to make this thread as innovative as possible! We are probably on the verge of the biggest revolution in human history with nobody at the helm of this ship, and I'm trying to figure out where the winds are coming from and only after that how they can be benefited from or where the ship is really going to go.

So, getting back to the subject at hand, I found these absolutely fascinating statistics today:

[Image: ethichs-stats.jpg]

[Image: ethics-graph.jpg]
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#33
You can see the 500-year cycle of civilization there.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#34
Maybe. We are blind to our own age and day, but I think the ethics of happiness is coming to a closure. Ethics of love should take a rise.

But why didn't the ethics of love rise already in the 1960's and 1970's? I know there was the need for the hippie movement, but why didn't it produce ethics of love? It seems very strange, was the movement too commercial after all? Economy has been on a huge rise for the past century thanks to technological advancements, did the trinkets, nice homes and nice cars kill the possible rise of ethics of love before it ever got a chance?

And if the ethics of love are going to rise after this fourth turning were in, what will it be based on? What is the launching pad? A tragedy of unspeakable proportions? Global climate change? What will unite people beyond reason, what will bring us back together again, if anything? The "principles" graph won't make huge moves up or down I guess. The "happiness" graph will probably go down, I think people might be even more tired of all the entertainment after 2020's than they were after WW2, and self-help books and all kinds of happiness-gurus aren't taking us much further, they're here today mostly to alleviate the pain of today's hectic modern society.


OR maybe there will finally be a balance between the three, every part of ethics gets a 1/3 slice of the pie? Would that be optimal for true and lasting happiness? I know people want change, and change will always come... but if a philosophy was created, could a balanced three-way approach fill the upcoming void of common morals and common direction for the western world?
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#35
(10-08-2018, 04:25 PM)Theojm Wrote: Maybe. We are blind to our own age and day, but I think the ethics of happiness is coming to a closure. Ethics of love should take a rise.

But why didn't the ethics of love rise already in the 1960's and 1970's? I know there was the need for the hippie movement, but why didn't it produce ethics of love? It seems very strange, was the movement too commercial after all? Economy has been on a huge rise for the past century thanks to technological advancements, did the trinkets, nice homes and nice cars kill the possible rise of ethics of love before it ever got a chance?

It did create an ethics of love.





Living up to ethics is another question. You can't make the changes you want overnight. It does take centuries or millennia. That unfortunately is the only answer to questions about sin, ethics, morality, etc. It goes way beyond one 84-year cycle.

Our society is indeed dominated by commercial motives and values. How does that enormous momentum shift? Other than a long-term cultural movement, there is no other way. Christianity took 300 years to take over the Roman Empire, with mixed results. Buddhism was around for 200 years before Ashoka instituted it, and helped shift Indian and Oriental culture to an extent. Spiritual and religious movements made a difference in many countries, but it takes time, longer than one saeculum I think. The only relevant aspect of the saeculum to cultural change is the Awakening. The only thing we Americans can do is help it grow when it comes, and continue to develop it and refer back to it after it's over.

Quote:And if the ethics of love are going to rise after this fourth turning were in, what will it be based on? What is the launching pad? A tragedy of unspeakable proportions? Global climate change? What will unite people beyond reason, what will bring us back together again, if anything? The "principles" graph won't make huge moves up or down I guess. The "happiness" graph will probably go down, I think people might be even more tired of all the entertainment after 2020's than they were after WW2, and self-help books and all kinds of happiness-gurus aren't taking us much further, they're here today mostly to alleviate the pain of today's hectic modern society.


OR maybe there will finally be a balance between the three, every part of ethics gets a 1/3 slice of the pie? Would that be optimal for true and lasting happiness? I know people want change, and change will always come... but if a philosophy was created, could a balanced three-way approach fill the upcoming void of common morals and common direction for the western world?

It is the job of Awakenings to change the culture, and for 4Ts to make institutional change that could provide a foundation for the stable society in which mutual respect can grow and an Awakening can develop. As we face the crises of this 4T era, and if and only if we mobilize politically, we can shift our institutions in the direction that provides a society upon which an awakening can grow, and which meanwhile provides for greater just and fair treatment to its people in a 1T recovery era. Principles from the previous 2Ts and 4Ts will be needed in order to apply them to constructing these new institutions. In this 4T and the following 1T, the job will be to take over and change our institutions so they provide the justice and protection we need so the people can prosper and respect one another. Only political work now, based on the ideals of previous 2Ts, can provide the basis and foundation for a just society out of which an ethics of love can grow and awaken.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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