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It looks like Trump is setting the mood for the 1T.
(12-07-2016, 05:35 PM)Odin Wrote: Tuss, it's also important for you to know that the current GOP is not like an ordinary political party you would be familiar with over in Europe, it's something more akin to a cult. Most self-identified Republicans will vote for their candidate no matter what and don't actually care about weather the candidate actually fulfills his/her campaign promises. Look at all the Orwellian doublespeak they are doing with regards about the Mexican wall now that Trump is backtracking, now all of a sudden his supporters insist he never said it would be an actual wall even though he actually did say it. This was not some victory of nationalism over cosmopolitan progressivism. Trump won not because a higher number than usual of white working class people voted for him, it was because a lot of progressive working class people in the rust belt didn't like Clinton because she was so deeply tied to the TPP and so they stayed home.

The Republican party is far less cult like than the Democrats.  Even Bernie closed ranks behind Clinton on the Democrat side, while there were Republicans refusing to endorse Trump and even a few endorsing Clinton.
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(12-07-2016, 11:08 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(12-07-2016, 05:35 PM)Odin Wrote: Tuss, it's also important for you to know that the current GOP is not like an ordinary political party you would be familiar with over in Europe, it's something more akin to a cult. Most self-identified Republicans will vote for their candidate no matter what and don't actually care about weather the candidate actually fulfills his/her campaign promises. Look at all the Orwellian doublespeak they are doing with regards about the Mexican wall now that Trump is backtracking, now all of a sudden his supporters insist he never said it would be an actual wall even though he actually did say it. This was not some victory of nationalism over cosmopolitan progressivism. Trump won not because a higher number than usual of white working class people voted for him, it was because a lot of progressive working class people in the rust belt didn't like Clinton because she was so deeply tied to the TPP and so they stayed home.

The Republican party is far less cult like than the Democrats.  Even Bernie closed ranks behind Clinton on the Democrat side, while there were Republicans refusing to endorse Trump and even a few endorsing Clinton.

Less of a cult? Republican pols have been very much in lockstep over the last few years. Maybe they will begin to rift when they can completely ignore Democrats (except perhaps to punish them), much as other authoritarian parties (including fascists and Commies) have done in the past.

Donald Trump will Make America Great Again -- if you liked Romanov-era Russia.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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(12-07-2016, 11:08 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(12-07-2016, 05:35 PM)Odin Wrote: Tuss, it's also important for you to know that the current GOP is not like an ordinary political party you would be familiar with over in Europe, it's something more akin to a cult. Most self-identified Republicans will vote for their candidate no matter what and don't actually care about weather the candidate actually fulfills his/her campaign promises. Look at all the Orwellian doublespeak they are doing with regards about the Mexican wall now that Trump is backtracking, now all of a sudden his supporters insist he never said it would be an actual wall even though he actually did say it. This was not some victory of nationalism over cosmopolitan progressivism. Trump won not because a higher number than usual of white working class people voted for him, it was because a lot of progressive working class people in the rust belt didn't like Clinton because she was so deeply tied to the TPP and so they stayed home.

The Republican party is far less cult like than the Democrats.  Even Bernie closed ranks behind Clinton on the Democrat side, while there were Republicans refusing to endorse Trump and even a few endorsing Clinton.

LOL, your projection is pathetic. The Dems exact problem is our inability to close ranks and keep purists from bolting to the Greens or from sitting out the election, while you guys will vote for a ham sandwich. This is another part of the GOP cult, constantly accusing liberals of doing exactly what you actually do.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(12-08-2016, 02:15 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(12-07-2016, 11:08 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(12-07-2016, 05:35 PM)Odin Wrote: Tuss, it's also important for you to know that the current GOP is not like an ordinary political party you would be familiar with over in Europe, it's something more akin to a cult. Most self-identified Republicans will vote for their candidate no matter what and don't actually care about weather the candidate actually fulfills his/her campaign promises. Look at all the Orwellian doublespeak they are doing with regards about the Mexican wall now that Trump is backtracking, now all of a sudden his supporters insist he never said it would be an actual wall even though he actually did say it. This was not some victory of nationalism over cosmopolitan progressivism. Trump won not because a higher number than usual of white working class people voted for him, it was because a lot of progressive working class people in the rust belt didn't like Clinton because she was so deeply tied to the TPP and so they stayed home.

The Republican party is far less cult like than the Democrats.  Even Bernie closed ranks behind Clinton on the Democrat side, while there were Republicans refusing to endorse Trump and even a few endorsing Clinton.

Less of a cult? Republican pols have been very much in lockstep over the last few years.

You must not  have been following Republican politics over the last few years.  There was so much division the Republican Speaker was forced out.  Meanwhile the Democrats just stuck with Pelosi, despite her losing the House with her hard line progressivism.
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you guys are funny. It's like you're fighting over which is more black, a deep cave on a moonless night, or a bottomless pit.
"But there's a difference between error and dishonesty, and it's not a trivial difference." - Ben Greenman
"Relax, it'll be all right, and by that I mean it will first get worse."
"How was I supposed to know that there'd be consequences for my actions?" - Gina Linetti
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(12-08-2016, 09:10 AM)tg63 Wrote: you guys are funny.  It's like you're fighting over which is more black, a deep cave on a moonless night, or a bottomless pit.

Yep they are rats in a round "maze." They think they are getting somewhere but they aren't. Throwing the blame onto others rather than see the stains of the whole and clean up themselves and their party and those that feed the problem. They will listen though only when ready. Right now they just want to shit throw.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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(12-07-2016, 02:45 AM)Tuss Wrote: ... If the 4T is a failure, the entire cycle has been a failure and will likely go down in history as the period during which the United States were destroyed from within, turned into a burnt out carcass of its former glory and an insignificant and destitute backwater in the world.

This looks like a global swing to me.  In the Philippines, you have Duterte.  There are so many fringe parties in Europe, I won't bother listing them, but Marine Le Pen may be the next Trump.  And let's not forget Brexit.

This is a universal backlash at the direction modernity is pushing the world, an obvious conclusion of the many that it's not going well for them.  Trump responded by creating a junta of Generals, and Billionaires. 

I'm assuming tension at a minimum with some sort of violence highly likely.  I have no insight how this will play out.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(12-07-2016, 11:08 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(12-07-2016, 05:35 PM)Odin Wrote: Tuss, it's also important for you to know that the current GOP is not like an ordinary political party you would be familiar with over in Europe, it's something more akin to a cult. Most self-identified Republicans will vote for their candidate no matter what and don't actually care about weather the candidate actually fulfills his/her campaign promises. Look at all the Orwellian doublespeak they are doing with regards about the Mexican wall now that Trump is backtracking, now all of a sudden his supporters insist he never said it would be an actual wall even though he actually did say it. This was not some victory of nationalism over cosmopolitan progressivism. Trump won not because a higher number than usual of white working class people voted for him, it was because a lot of progressive working class people in the rust belt didn't like Clinton because she was so deeply tied to the TPP and so they stayed home.

The Republican party is far less cult like than the Democrats.  Even Bernie closed ranks behind Clinton on the Democrat side, while there were Republicans refusing to endorse Trump and even a few endorsing Clinton.

This is the first time I can think of that happening, and it wouldn't have this time if not for Trump.  He opened the GOP to strife it usually avoids like the plague, and unified the Democrats.  The Democratic Party is a coalition of niche interests that don't do all that well supporting each other, so unifying on anything is not all that common.  But yes, Hillary got the insider consideration this time, and, considering the result, it's not likely to happen again.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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Kill this thread title, first we have to get through the next three stages of the 4T: regeneracy, crisis climax and resolution. Boomers are not 100% into Elderhood until 2020. GenXers are not 100% into Midlife until about 2020. Millennials are not 100% into Young Adults until 2020. That alignment is stressed by Strauss and Howe as the time when Generations influence events and events, influence Generations. Each generation has their own role and responsibility in the 4T stages. Pay attention to the next four years of the Regeneracy: old institutions die and new institutions grow. Fossil fuels die and renewables grow, old job titles disappear and new job titles grow, means testing Social Security to tax high income retirees and new basic income for Millennials with low incomes.
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(12-08-2016, 12:01 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(12-08-2016, 07:58 AM)Odin Wrote:
(12-07-2016, 11:08 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(12-07-2016, 05:35 PM)Odin Wrote: Tuss, it's also important for you to know that the current GOP is not like an ordinary political party you would be familiar with over in Europe, it's something more akin to a cult. Most self-identified Republicans will vote for their candidate no matter what and don't actually care about weather the candidate actually fulfills his/her campaign promises. Look at all the Orwellian doublespeak they are doing with regards about the Mexican wall now that Trump is backtracking, now all of a sudden his supporters insist he never said it would be an actual wall even though he actually did say it. This was not some victory of nationalism over cosmopolitan progressivism. Trump won not because a higher number than usual of white working class people voted for him, it was because a lot of progressive working class people in the rust belt didn't like Clinton because she was so deeply tied to the TPP and so they stayed home.

The Republican party is far less cult like than the Democrats.  Even Bernie closed ranks behind Clinton on the Democrat side, while there were Republicans refusing to endorse Trump and even a few endorsing Clinton.

LOL, your projection is pathetic. The Dems exact problem is our inability to close ranks and keep purists from bolting to the Greens or from sitting out the election, while you guys will vote for a ham sandwich. This is another part of the GOP cult, constantly accusing liberals of doing exactly what you actually do.

Sodden thought ... the "Black Bloc" equivalent on the Right .... is .... someone like me?

I dunno, maybe, LOL! Wink
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(12-08-2016, 04:03 PM)igranderojo Wrote: Kill this thread title, first we have to get through the next three stages of the 4T: regeneracy, crisis climax and resolution.  Boomers are not 100% into Elderhood until 2020.  GenXers are not 100% into Midlife until about 2020.  Millennials are not 100% into Young Adults until 2020.  That alignment is stressed by Strauss and Howe as the time when Generations influence events and events, influence Generations.  Each generation has their own role and responsibility in the 4T stages.  Pay attention to the next four years of the Regeneracy: old institutions die and new institutions grow.  Fossil fuels die and renewables grow, old job titles disappear and new job titles grow, means testing Social Security to tax high income retirees and new basic income for Millennials with low incomes.

I agree that a reckoning is coming, but what form it will take is still arguable.  We have two strains of Boomers pulling in different directions, and Millennials sitting on their hands.  Our local paper had a commentary by a Millennial activist who asserted that the Millennials won't support anything that doesn't benefit them directly and in the manner they want to be benefitted. True or just exaggeration, that's a pretty arrogant demand.  If fully true, it kills any chance that a common front can be assembled to confront the coming onslaught. 

I've been part of the failed 4T faction for a long time.  By failure, I don't mean abject failure, necessarily.  Just a case of inadequate success.  A ho-hum response to a full court press by the neo-Luddites might trigger a post-4T that is so grindingly austere that the 2T will have to be a rebellion of some sort.   2020 isn't that far off, and the GOP is already planning to put-off the changes to the ACA until after the midterms.  I can see that being he same tactic on Social Security (raise the age and cut the COLA to zero), Medicare (just bleed it to death) and Medicaid (gone) ... in fact on everything. They may just run out the clock, though climate change will proceed with or without their consent.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(12-08-2016, 04:44 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(12-08-2016, 04:03 PM)igranderojo Wrote: Kill this thread title, first we have to get through the next three stages of the 4T: regeneracy, crisis climax and resolution.  Boomers are not 100% into Elderhood until 2020.  GenXers are not 100% into Midlife until about 2020.  Millennials are not 100% into Young Adults until 2020.  That alignment is stressed by Strauss and Howe as the time when Generations influence events and events, influence Generations.  Each generation has their own role and responsibility in the 4T stages.  Pay attention to the next four years of the Regeneracy: old institutions die and new institutions grow.  Fossil fuels die and renewables grow, old job titles disappear and new job titles grow, means testing Social Security to tax high income retirees and new basic income for Millennials with low incomes.

I agree that a reckoning is coming, but what form it will take is still arguable.  We have two strains of Boomers pulling in different directions, and Millennials sitting on their hands.  Our local paper had a commentary by a Millennial activist who asserted that the Millennials won't support anything that doesn't benefit them directly and in the manner they want to be benefitted. True or not, that's a pretty arrogant demand.  If true, it kills any chance that a common front can be assembled to confront the coming onslaught. 
...

Your paper's observation of the attitude of Millennials is consistent with my anecdotal observations.  I recently overhead a 19-year-old talking about how he was the only one of four late-teens in his college dorm that had any interest in voting, and even then only if a candidate is promoting something that directly benefits him, such as free tuition (his example, not mine).

If this attitude is as widespread as I think it is, well, I'm not sure how to end this sentence ... but it won't be a happy ending ...
"But there's a difference between error and dishonesty, and it's not a trivial difference." - Ben Greenman
"Relax, it'll be all right, and by that I mean it will first get worse."
"How was I supposed to know that there'd be consequences for my actions?" - Gina Linetti
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(12-08-2016, 04:44 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(12-08-2016, 04:03 PM)igranderojo Wrote: Kill this thread title, first we have to get through the next three stages of the 4T: regeneracy, crisis climax and resolution.  Boomers are not 100% into Elderhood until 2020.  GenXers are not 100% into Midlife until about 2020.  Millennials are not 100% into Young Adults until 2020.  That alignment is stressed by Strauss and Howe as the time when Generations influence events and events, influence Generations.  Each generation has their own role and responsibility in the 4T stages.  Pay attention to the next four years of the Regeneracy: old institutions die and new institutions grow.  Fossil fuels die and renewables grow, old job titles disappear and new job titles grow, means testing Social Security to tax high income retirees and new basic income for Millennials with low incomes.

I agree that a reckoning is coming, but what form it will take is still arguable.  We have two strains of Boomers pulling in different directions, and Millennials sitting on their hands.  Our local paper had a commentary by a Millennial activist who asserted that the Millennials won't support anything that doesn't benefit them directly and in the manner they want to be benefitted. True or not, that's a pretty arrogant demand.  If true, it kills any chance that a common front can be assembled to confront the coming onslaught. 

I've been part of the failed 4T faction for a long time.  By failure, I don't mean abject failure, necessarily.  Just a case of inadequate success.  A ho-hum response to a full court press by the neo-Luddites might trigger a post-4T that so grindingly austere that the 2T will have to be a rebellion of some sort.   2020 isn't that far off, and the GOP is already planning to put-off the changes to the ACA until 1fter the midterms.  I can see that being he same tactic on Social Security (raise the age and cut the COLA to zero), Medicare (just bleed it to death) and Medicaid (gone).

The 4T is only half over and I think the dawning horror of a Trump presidency is beginning to be a wake up call for Millennials. Already I've noticed a massive backlash against Bernie-or-Busters who stayed home.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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History will move fast in the next four years. We can have an America becoming an Evil Empire, and Apartheid state, a high-tech Feudalism, or some combination of the three. The high-tech feudalism is even worse than the low-tech one, for in the high-tech feudalism a would-be Robin Hood will be quickly caught and killed by the Sheriff of Nottingham... and the human suffering will be just as bad.

We can see all the post-WWII arrangements, including NATO, shatter. Nations that value their freedom will not want to coordinate their military policies with a fascistic rogue state. We can see the entire edifice of the American welfare state dismantled quickly. America could become effectively a single-Party system in which the Democrats can exist only as bickering special-interest groups that can survive only as a show of some vestige of democracy.

America has a heritage of militarism inordinate for a liberal democracy -- and a dictatorial order would only intensify that. I can imagine many countries that would rather put up a desperate fight against a brutalized America than accept subordination. Just imagine America facing a Delhi-Jakarta-Tokyo Axis. If you thought that the Japanese fascists did well at kicking a decent America early in the Pacific Theater in World War II, imagine what happens when India, Indonesia, and Japan kick America early, in the middle of, and in the end of the Second War of the Pacific Basin.

I can imagine an international war ending with some legacies of the defeat of a fascistic America. Just imagine a city like Atlanta having a Carnival that rivals the Carnival of Rio de Janeiro. Imagine Texas with the official name "Republica de Tejas". Imagine the Euro in use in New England, New York, and New Jersey.

Or imagine the consequences of a world in which the material basis of modern civilization is no more because of nuclear war, when America from about Charlotte to Boston and from Buffalo and Pittsburgh in the east to Minneapolis and Omaha in the west resemble the exclusion zone around Chernobyl.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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On February 28th 2017, President Trump addressed this topic directly. The 250th anniversary of the United States Declaration of Independence on July 4th 2026 should be a time of celebration over what has been accomplished between now and then.
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Of course there are also brighter prospects than apocalypse and tyranny for America. We might all take delight in an America vastly reformed and better than ever. We could have a more equitable social system with more opportunity and economic safety. We might have a culture that uniformly cherishes (as is already so for middle-class members of minority groups) first-rate education and demands it as a birthright and civic duty.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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I came to this thread because it was listed as at the bottom of another thread as "Possibly Related". I only see the same old political games in this thread - the same games I believe are keeping us all stuck at the bottom fighting each other while Fascism and Corporatocracy destroys us.

We should not be calling each other names and attempting to deluge others with our individual dogmas. The red/blue scam has been plowing us under for so long it seems we have forgotten what it means to exist outside those paradigms. Simultaneously, almost everyone posting here will claim that are "unaffiliated" and NOT part of the dogmatic paradigms present in so much of your, well, DOGMAS.

Be nice to each other and try to suppress your own subjectivity because only in objectivity can we meet. In subjectivity, we have the equivalent of CHURCHES............ where you can look online and find a building that will host you on sunday to tell you exactly what you want to hear. You don't even need to research it. All you need to know is the name of the building you desire to hear what you want and go there to be surrounded by like-minded individuals.

We are all so much better than that and much more capable. It does, however, require alteration of thought. That is where I think the roadblock lies

Sad <---- *TheNomad cries intently*
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I find it incomprehensible to talk about fascism and corporatocracy destroying us, and then say red vs. blue is a scam as opposed to existing outside that paradigm. The Democrats may be well below perfection, and some Democrats are bluer and more green than others. It's just a general term. But, in general, the battle with corporatocracy is nothing else but the red vs. blue paradigm. That to me is an objective truth. It is a matter of record, of which politicians and which parties do what. The record is clear, and so is the choice. It is identical to today's 4T.

So be nice to those who are not nice, if you can Smile Be nice to those who operate within the blue/red paradigm, and to those who claim that they don't. And it's more stimulating to discuss things with those who disagree. And in any case, whether you stay within your bubble, church, echo chamber, paradigm etc, or not, no-one in a discussion group is likely to change their minds because of anything you write anyway.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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Actually, the irony, which the T4T authors don't understand, is that only in subjectivity can we meet. In objectivity, we don't. That's impossible for materialists to understand, but quite clear to spiritualists or idealists. Because in true consciousness, we are all connected. As objects, we are separated. What is most personal, is most universal.

This is where the theory actually charts where we go wrong as a country. Our 2Ts are not strong enough yet to create a spiritual nation out of this barbaric land. It is centuries or even millennia away, perhaps. But, the process started with this 2T, with the background of the previous two as well. Without this awareness implanted deep within us, like it is in spiritual lands like India or even Italy and France, consciousness revolutions stay stuck in inwardness as a self-centered pursuit in the way Strauss and Howe describe. We don't break through the wall of separation sufficiently. In a land dedicated to self-seeking individualism and commercial success, a deeper kind of "search for self" does not take hold well enough to transform us into a spiritual land, where instead of just "Hi Dude" we say "Namaste" to one another, meaning "I salute the same divinity within you that I see in myself." But, however long it takes, it is the direction of human destiny; if we can survive our delusions, then it will happen as naturally as a flower unfolds.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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(06-07-2018, 01:35 AM)TheNomad Wrote: I came to this thread because it was listed as at the bottom of another thread as "Possibly Related".  I only see the same old political games in this thread - the same games I believe are keeping us all stuck at the bottom fighting each other while Fascism and Corporatocracy destroys us.

We need to learn whom we can trust and whom we can't. People who do not have our best interests at heart need to do much explaining away of counter-intuitive beliefs. A combination of wage cuts and monopolization will do few people any good at all.


Quote:We should not be calling each other names and attempting to deluge others with our individual dogmas.  The red/blue scam has been plowing us under for so long it seems we have forgotten what it means to exist outside those paradigms.  Simultaneously, almost everyone posting here will claim that are "unaffiliated" and NOT part of the dogmatic paradigms present in so much of your, well, DOGMAS.


If the shoe fits -- we expose criminals, cheats, liars, perverts, sadists, and traitors lest they get away with what they are and what they do.


Quote:Be nice to each other and try to suppress your own subjectivity because only in objectivity can we meet.  In subjectivity, we have the equivalent of CHURCHES............ where you can look online and find a building that will host you on sunday to tell you exactly what you want to hear.  You don't even need to research it.  All you need to know is the name of the building you desire to hear what you want and go there to be surrounded by like-minded individuals.  

We are all so much better than that and much more capable.  It does, however, require alteration of thought.  That is where I think the roadblock lies
[/quote]
We will all have cultural differences based upon our intelligence, ethnicity, learning, and experiences.  The secret is to learn how to live with those differences.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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