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House of Representatives impeaches President Donald Trump
#41
(01-23-2020, 11:16 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-23-2020, 04:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally, I see construction of new factories and other new facilities in the area. I'm also been seeing a nice  increase in annual  sales since 2017 and I've been  seeing more customers who aren't afraid to spend money when they have to spend it or afraid to invest in their homes like they were before Trump entered office. If people are looking for work there are plenty of jobs available these days. Dude, employment is at an all time low.

Trump's obscene tax cut have dumped about $2 Trillion into the economy so far.  That would be Keynesian stimulus on steroids, if it hadn't been targeted at the wealthy and corporations.  So yes, there has been stimulus, but less than that much should have created.  Now it's running out of steam.  The added debt is still there, though, and more is on the way.  What happens when interest rates shoot up dramatically?  All this debt needs to be financed, and the old debt needs to be as well.  Debt service on $22 Trillion is $440 Billion annually at 2%.  If that goes up to 4%, as it has in the past, the debt service rises to just under a $1 Trillion.  Massive new debt and zero stimulus adds up to a major recession.

Yep.  The old conservatives had a policy of no debt.  Keynes favored spending as stimulation in bad times, but buying back debt in good.  The new 'conservatives' since Reagan with the start of voodoo economics do stimulation in bad times as well as good, leaving behind ever increasing debt.  I see this as tending to last most of two terms.  It gives them a good economy for that long, but leaves them vulnerable to "it's the economy, stupid" or "The Great Recession" as they try to go for a third straight term.

I see it as a major driver of the see saw.  When the economy gets that messed up, you go to the other party for some sort of responsibility for two terms.  But the middle of the country have not learned yet, or have other priorities than the economy, while the Republican administrations go right back to hugely imbalanced budgets as soon as they get in.

You see more than a hint that CNN is hoping a recession will start before the elections in November 2020, but things don't generally collapse until well into the second term of it.
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#42
(01-23-2020, 04:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally, I think the liberals went to far with their impeachment of Trump and will most likely lose the house because of it. Times are different.  I mean, other than a liberal who can really trust a liberal these days. Dude, I don't even use the term Democrat anymore because there aren't any true Democrats left these days and I don't recognize/view the people who call themselves liberals as actually being liberals these days either.

I am not too worried about pushing for impeachment and removal.  Have you read the poll numbers?  While any information that comes from polls must not be taken too seriously, the bulk of the US in in favor of impeachment and removal.  This tends to confirm that Trump has flipped the flop, which puts those that have not noticed on the hangman’s trap door.

I am a bit unsure how to characterize the conservatives anymore.  In the Bush 43 days it was fairly simple.  There were three big elements in that administration: the military hawk Neo-cons, people affiliated with big oil, and the evangelicals.  One of Bush 43’s mistakes was not getting the three factions pulling for the same thing in Iraq.  Today there is a tie to the elites among the establishment, a dislike of elites among the Tea Party, the racist element bubbling closer to the surface, a liking of debit overstimulation in good times, and those who are still loyal to Trump.

We will see what comes out of the impeachment, how the Republicans try to retain the Tea Party when their establishment has already earned their bases distrust.
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#43
(12-27-2019, 08:45 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 11:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The counsel to the Democrats in the House says Trump could be impeached a second time if they hear more about his obstruction from McGahn. I'd say we are also waiting for a lot more: all his tax records and the documents he has withheld, and all the witnesses that the House has gone to Court to get to testify. Why not hold up the trial now until we get everything? We've got the impeachment done. And if the trial is held up for several months, that will give senators the time they need to campaign in the primary.

Actually, it might be better to let this go through, and have the public see the GOP as total sock puppets.  Nothing prevents a second or third impeachment if the facts makes that necessary.  No matter how this plays, we're tilling new ground.  Better to have the terms set by the not-GOPpers

Eric Wrote:Trump has violated the emoluments clause by hosting foreign officials at his hotels and such. He violated campaign finance laws by using money from his charity to finance his campaign. He paid hush money to a prostitute. He obstructed justice, as the Mueller Report described. He may have committed tax fraud and made himself beholden to the Russians. What else could be revealed if we can get all the documents and witnesses that have already been subpoenaed?

Until the entire Republican Party is either shamed into doing the right thing, or shown to everyone as a sham party, this can happen again.  The Democrats only have one tool: a hammer.  Let the GOP be the nails.
Shame only works if one is not already viewed as being guilty of doing something wrong. Your side already tried the hammer and that didn't work either. 53 to 47 disappointing loss on day is the proof. I know that liberals do no wrong is your team motto and an angel with a blue halo is your team logo and liberals doing good is what your side is known for but does it really match and come across as believable these days. Hint.. The way the liberals concocted things and conducted themselves during the House trial was wrong.
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#44
(01-23-2020, 05:48 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, shame only works if you or your side is not viewed as being guilty of doing something wrong. Your side already tried the hammer and that didn't work. 53 to 47 disappointment is the proof. I know that liberals do no wrong is your team motto and an angel with a blue halo is your team logo and liberals doing good is what your side is known for but does it really match and come across as believable these days. So, why is every liberal seem or come across to me as self centered. What is so special about liberals? What is wrong with liberals? What makes liberals believe they're above the law? Ain't God or Jesus telling/teaching them that.

Back around the time of two popes, when the British were starting to experiment with peasants fighting wars and training as reseves, the French king discovered he needed bigger armies, which meant for him, more babies.  He talked one of the popes into a quid pro quo.  He would recognize that pope.  The pope would make abortion and birth control a special sort of sin, one his priests would not forgive as easily.  Presto, more babies, bigger armies.

A little later one of the Enlightenment ideas for giving the People more power relative to the government and nobles was the new fangled Right to bear Arms.  This again was a result of the English longbow and later the musket.  Peasants so armed could fight nobles for a few centuries, and the Right was intended to make the change in power permanent.

Abortion.  Guns.  Familiar?

Conservatives tend to try to preserve older ideas, even when the reasons for them are in places obsolete, forgotten, or replaced by newer theories.  In areas where the population is lower, the older ideas might still work.  In areas where population is denser, the new problems become greater and newer solutions may seem to supersede the old.  In the Abortion case, God does not change his mind, so the little quid pro quo became permanent in certain circles.  The Christian concept of forgiveness was forgotten in the name of military expediency.  In the case of guns, the Right to Bear Arms makes more sense in a rural area than in urban.

Now I think the Founding Father’s idea of needing a supermajority to change cultures by force is prudent and wise.  Liberals sometimes are guilty of impatience, of putting themselves ahead of Constitution and law.  I could agree with an updated 2nd, which guaranteed a real individual right to own and carry weapons with a limited magazine and rate of fire.  States should be able to place a ban on military grade weapons, but not to impede the right to own and carry civilian ones.  Abortion is harder, but the ability to impose religious beliefs of one’s own on people who do not share those beliefs is a step too far.  Listening to televangelists instead of God on forgiveness also has its perils.

But these reflect a lot of other issues.  Liberals want a modern solution to the problems which urban areas create.  Conservatives fight for the right to continue to use ancient traditions that are half obsolete, whose origins are often not accurately remembered.

And some of the ancient traditions, such as racism, are truly reprehensible.  Racism contributed to the idea of small government and low taxes.  The desire to hurt minorities resulted in hurting the generations who came of age after the progressive era.

Which faction is correct is often not obvious, or the same in all places.
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#45
(01-23-2020, 05:08 PM)hBob Butler 54 Wrote:
(01-23-2020, 04:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally, I think the liberals went to far with their impeachment of Trump and will most likely lose the house because of it. Times are different.  I mean, other than a liberal who can really trust a liberal these days. Dude, I don't even use the term Democrat anymore because there aren't any true Democrats left these days and I don't recognize/view the people who call themselves liberals as actually being liberals these days either.

I am not too worried about pushing for impeachment and removal.  Have you read the poll numbers?  While any information that comes from polls must not be taken too seriously, the bulk of the US in in favor of impeachment and removal.  This tends to confirm that Trump has flipped the flop, which puts those that have not noticed on the hangman’s trap door.

I am a bit unsure how to characterize the conservatives anymore.  In the Bush 43 days it was fairly simple.  There were three big elements in that administration: the military hawk Neo-cons, people affiliated with big oil, and the evangelicals.  One of Bush 43’s mistakes was not getting the three factions pulling for the same thing in Iraq.  Today there is a tie to the elites among the establishment, a dislike of elites among the Tea Party, the racist element bubbling closer to the surface, a liking of debit overstimulation in good times, and those who are still loyal to Trump.

We will see what comes out of the impeachment, how the Republicans try to retain the Tea Party when their establishment has already earned their bases distrust.
I wouldn't place to much faith in the national polls or what the liberal media has to say either at this point. How long have they been misleading you these days? The bulk of what we've seen so far is a continuation of the prosecution/ persecution of Donald Trump with some rebuttal/defense. I had to work and family gathering to attend. I didn't have a chance to watch it today. Same thing? Trump is guilty? You have to help us find the crime that he's guilty of so you can convict him for us. Me, I'm waiting for the defense and see what the polls say about impeaching him afterwards. You know, the liberal mob in the House, should have just skipped the formalities altogether and impeached him for some bogus crimes that sounded the best to them and delivered them to the Senate. I don't know, we seem to be the establishment these days. Do you see any of our Senators doing something that we wouldn't like?
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#46
(01-24-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I wouldn't place to much faith in the national polls or what the liberal media has to say either at this point. How long have they been misleading you these days? The bulk of what we've seen so far is a continuation of the prosecution/ persecution of Donald Trump with some rebuttal/defense. I had to work and family gathering to attend. I didn't have a chance to watch it today. Same thing? Trump is guilty? You have to help us find the crime that he's guilty of so you can convict him for us. Me, I'm waiting for the defense and see what the polls say about impeaching him afterwards. You know, the liberal mob in the House, should have just skipped the formalities altogether and impeached him for some bogus crimes that sounded the best to them and delivered them to the Senate. I don't know, we seem to be the establishment these days. Do you see any of our Senators doing something that we wouldn't like?

The coastal media are not the ones habitually lying. They come out on the right side of the fact checks, generally.

If you don’t really know what Trump did, you are ignorant and willfully ignorant. That too is a good way to end up on the hangman’s trap door.
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#47
(01-23-2020, 05:08 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(01-23-2020, 04:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally, I think the liberals went to far with their impeachment of Trump and will most likely lose the house because of it. Times are different.  I mean, other than a liberal who can really trust a liberal these days. Dude, I don't even use the term Democrat anymore because there aren't any true Democrats left these days and I don't recognize/view the people who call themselves liberals as actually being liberals these days either.

I am not too worried about pushing for impeachment and removal.  Have you read the poll numbers?  While any information that comes from polls must not be taken too seriously, the bulk of the US in in favor of impeachment and removal.  This tends to confirm that Trump has flipped the flop, which puts those that have not noticed on the hangman’s trap door.

I am a bit unsure how to characterize the conservatives anymore.  In the Bush 43 days it was fairly simple.  There were three big elements in that administration: the military hawk Neo-cons, people affiliated with big oil, and the evangelicals.  One of Bush 43’s mistakes was not getting the three factions pulling for the same thing in Iraq.  Today there is a tie to the elites among the establishment, a dislike of elites among the Tea Party, the racist element bubbling closer to the surface, a liking of debit overstimulation in good times, and those who are still loyal to Trump.

We will see what comes out of the impeachment, how the Republicans try to retain the Tea Party when their establishment has already earned their bases distrust.
Not Good. The bulk of the US must be completely clueless or uneducated. Well, liberal women ain't all that sharp and tend to roll by their emotions. I know a lot of them. It's to bad the majority of them don't vote.
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#48
(01-24-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-23-2020, 05:08 PM)hBob Butler 54 Wrote:
(01-23-2020, 04:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally, I think the liberals went to far with their impeachment of Trump and will most likely lose the house because of it. Times are different.  I mean, other than a liberal who can really trust a liberal these days. Dude, I don't even use the term Democrat anymore because there aren't any true Democrats left these days and I don't recognize/view the people who call themselves liberals as actually being liberals these days either.

I am not too worried about pushing for impeachment and removal.  Have you read the poll numbers?  While any information that comes from polls must not be taken too seriously, the bulk of the US in in favor of impeachment and removal.  This tends to confirm that Trump has flipped the flop, which puts those that have not noticed on the hangman’s trap door.

I am a bit unsure how to characterize the conservatives anymore.  In the Bush 43 days it was fairly simple.  There were three big elements in that administration: the military hawk Neo-cons, people affiliated with big oil, and the evangelicals.  One of Bush 43’s mistakes was not getting the three factions pulling for the same thing in Iraq.  Today there is a tie to the elites among the establishment, a dislike of elites among the Tea Party, the racist element bubbling closer to the surface, a liking of debit overstimulation in good times, and those who are still loyal to Trump.

We will see what comes out of the impeachment, how the Republicans try to retain the Tea Party when their establishment has already earned their bases distrust.
I wouldn't place to much faith in the national polls or what the liberal media has to say either at this point. How long have they been misleading you these days? The bulk of what we've seen so far is a continuation of the prosecution/ persecution of Donald Trump with some rebuttal/defense. I had to work and family gathering to attend. I didn't have a chance to watch it today. Same thing? Trump is guilty? You have to help us find the crime that he's guilty of so you can convict him for us. Me, I'm waiting for the defense and see what the polls say about impeaching him afterwards. You know, the liberal mob in the House, should have just skipped the formalities altogether and impeached him for some bogus crimes that sounded the best to them and delivered them to the Senate. I don't know, we seem to be the establishment these days. Do you see any of our Senators doing something that we wouldn't like?

What alternative do you see to the polls? Your wishful thinking?

The liberal media have related the story calmly and rationally. They have explained well what is wrong with the "drug deal". Indeed I am amazed that some conservative called the attempt to blackmail President Zelensky a "drug deal". 

The Establishment does not look fondly upon literal drug deals, and I can't see anyone in normal business calling any normal transaction a "drug deal". What could be a more objectionable description aside from outright theft or fraud?

So let me create an analogy to which you might relate. You got a contract to install some HVAC equipment on behalf of a hospital connected with the Mayo Clinic, and the equipment is shipped to your warehouse. The truck driver who brings it to sees a cute (sexist description of a woman which fits the story) who is your employee. He balks at delivering it to you until you arrange a date between him and that employee. What do you do? Do you deliver that employee to him so that he can copulate with her?

I doubt that. You call the police, you get the woman out of the way, and you call the truck line. Ideally the truck line sends some other driver who will complete the intended transaction by releasing the equipment to you and the truck driver who insisted upon a date with your female employee has a meeting with the local police... loses his job, and goes to prison. Doing what is right is not always convenient, but it is often all that you can do.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#49
(01-24-2020, 02:54 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: It's to bad the majority of them don't vote.

I suspect that problem won't repeat right away.
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#50
(01-23-2020, 02:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Yep.  The old conservatives had a policy of no debt.  Keynes favored spending as stimulation in bad times, but buying back debt in good.  The new 'conservatives' since Reagan with the start of voodoo economics do stimulation in bad times as well as good, leaving behind ever increasing debt.  I see this as tending to last most of two terms.  It gives them a good economy for that long, but leaves them vulnerable to "it's the economy, stupid" or "The Great Recession" as they try to go for a third straight term.

I see it as a major driver of the see saw.  When the economy gets that messed up, you go to the other party for some sort of responsibility for two terms.  But the middle of the country have not learned yet, or have other priorities than the economy, while the Republican administrations go right back to hugely imbalanced budgets as soon as they get in.

You see more than a hint that CNN is hoping a recession will start before the elections in November 2020, but things don't generally collapse until well into the second term of it.

There is a perverse nature to this pattern that actually favors the guilty. The party that makes the mess, does it while creating a false jubilee. Of course, that ends, then the fix-it party has to come in and make everyone eat their peas and carrots. Of course, that only works until the damage is repaired, then they are thrown out for being buzz-kills. Rinse and repeat.

This started under Nixon, and seems to be a repeating pattern with some legs.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#51
(01-24-2020, 01:17 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(01-24-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I wouldn't place to much faith in the national polls or what the liberal media has to say either at this point. How long have they been misleading you these days? The bulk of what we've seen so far is a continuation of the prosecution/ persecution of Donald Trump with some rebuttal/defense. I had to work and family gathering to attend. I didn't have a chance to watch it today. Same thing? Trump is guilty? You have to help us find the crime that he's guilty of so you can convict him for us. Me, I'm waiting for the defense and see what the polls say about impeaching him afterwards. You know, the liberal mob in the House, should have just skipped the formalities altogether and impeached him for some bogus crimes that sounded the best to them and delivered them to the Senate. I don't know, we seem to be the establishment these days. Do you see any of our Senators doing something that we wouldn't like?

The coastal media are not the ones habitually lying.  They come out on the right side of the fact checks, generally.

If you don’t really know what Trump did, you are ignorant and willfully ignorant.  That too is a good way to end up on the hangman’s trap door.

Nothing to add to that!
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#52
If Trump is not convicted, even if the trial is not fair, Trump will immediately and loudly claim "exoneration," and the 45% will believe him.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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