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(05-25-2016, 12:48 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 12:42 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Everyone I know eventually gets tired of being kicked and the first chance they get they rip out the throat of the person doing the kicking.  In the US you are seeing a bit of that with Trump and Sanders.  This is a warning to the political class but I think they will ignore it as they always have.
Eventually they will have to pay attention. It has always been that way with revolutions in this kind of era we are in.

No they don't, after all in Venezuela they aren't and Madura is continuing in the footsteps Chavez.  Read up on what is going on there, it isn't pretty.  You will have to dig because most mainstream media tends toward the left.  The one thing that will work, the free market, will not be tried because it reduces the power the politicians hold.  If the current trends continue then it won't be long before the pitchforks and guillotines come out.  It has been awhile since a whole nation's political class lost their heads, couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people.
(05-25-2016, 01:49 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 12:48 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 12:42 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Everyone I know eventually gets tired of being kicked and the first chance they get they rip out the throat of the person doing the kicking.  In the US you are seeing a bit of that with Trump and Sanders.  This is a warning to the political class but I think they will ignore it as they always have.
Eventually they will have to pay attention. It has always been that way with revolutions in this kind of era we are in.

No they don't, after all in Venezuela they aren't and Madura is continuing in the footsteps Chavez.  Read up on what is going on there, it isn't pretty.  You will have to dig because most mainstream media tends toward the left.  The one thing that will work, the free market, will not be tried because it reduces the power the politicians hold.  If the current trends continue then it won't be long before the pitchforks and guillotines come out.  It has been awhile since a whole nation's political class lost their heads, couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people.

It will only happen if the people of a country wake up, have had enough and beat down the doors together into revolution. Take the power back. The govt is SUPPOSED to be FOR THE PEOPLE. They are supposed to be our voice and work FOR us. They need to remember that and be put back in their place. Nothing gets done if we do not find a solution and actually push to make it happen which will be through a revolution. A plan, a strategy and the mass behind it. If that don't work well we know the other alternative that has happened before....bloodshed.
(05-25-2016, 01:59 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It will only happen if the people of a country wake up, have had enough and beat down the doors together into revolution. Take the power back. The govt is SUPPOSED to be FOR THE PEOPLE. They are supposed to be our voice and work FOR us. They need to remember that and be put back in their place. Nothing gets done if we do not find a solution and actually push to make it happen which will be through a revolution. A plan, a strategy and the mass behind it. If that don't work well we know the other alternative that has happened before....bloodshed.

You misunderstand the nature of the state but I suggest that you read, or listen to the audiobook, Anatomy of the State .  This will give you a much clearer view of what is really going on.  I would recommend the works of James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg in discussing, among other things, the relationship between the exercise of violence and scale of institutions.
(05-25-2016, 02:15 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 01:59 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]It will only happen if the people of a country wake up, have had enough and beat down the doors together into revolution. Take the power back. The govt is SUPPOSED to be FOR THE PEOPLE. They are supposed to be our voice and work FOR us. They need to remember that and be put back in their place. Nothing gets done if we do not find a solution and actually push to make it happen which will be through a revolution. A plan, a strategy and the mass behind it. If that don't work well we know the other alternative that has happened before....bloodshed.

You misunderstand the nature of the state but I suggest that you read, or listen to the audiobook, Anatomy of the State .  This will give you a much clearer view of what is really going on.  I would recommend the works of James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg in discussing, among other things, the relationship between the exercise of violence and scale of institutions.

How would you suggest then the actions needed to be taken to change the system and fix what needs to be fixed? Other than free markets. We have already addressed that but how do you make that a reality? What steps need to be taken to make that happen? I would like to see action being taken to change the corrupt system.
(05-25-2016, 02:37 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]How would you suggest then the actions needed to be taken to change the system and fix what needs to be fixed? Other than free markets. We have already addressed that but how do you make that a reality? What steps need to be taken to make that happen? I would like to see action being taken to change the corrupt system.

Right now, people on the whole find the current system tolerable.  Given the appearance of Trump that state of affairs is starting to change.  At that point questions start to be asked and you point them to the answers.  The rest will take care of itself.  Until a question is asked it is impossible to enlighten people.  I don't agree with this guy on many things but he has spotted the main problem, the citizens themselves.

The only action that is possible is for large number of people to simply stop obeying.  Until the US has its Soviet Union moment, for pretty much the same reasons, this will not happen and the status quo will be maintained.  It looks like at the very least Trump has made a deal with Sheldon Adelson which suggests to me that Trump will turn out to be a disappointment to his followers for much the same reason Reagan and Obozo were to theirs. 

In that moment of disappointment then perhaps the faith in the omnipotence of the state will be broken.  After all, that is precisely what happened in the Soviet Union.  Hard to say what will happen after that but when the state is considered a total failure then interest in the Founders and the principles of individual liberty may be rediscovered.  Then again, it may not.

Until then I will continue the attempt to enlighten those that refuse to think, Eric the Obtuse for example, for the benefit of those who will.
(05-25-2016, 01:49 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 12:48 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 12:42 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]Everyone I know eventually gets tired of being kicked and the first chance they get they rip out the throat of the person doing the kicking.  In the US you are seeing a bit of that with Trump and Sanders.  This is a warning to the political class but I think they will ignore it as they always have.
Eventually they will have to pay attention. It has always been that way with revolutions in this kind of era we are in.

No they don't, after all in Venezuela they aren't and Madura is continuing in the footsteps Chavez.  Read up on what is going on there, it isn't pretty.  You will have to dig because most mainstream media tends toward the left.  The one thing that will work, the free market, will not be tried because it reduces the power the politicians hold.  If the current trends continue then it won't be long before the pitchforks and guillotines come out.  It has been awhile since a whole nation's political class lost their heads, couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people.

The problems in Venezuela is because the leadership is incompetent and increasingly paranoid, a paranoia primed because of the US's history in the region to see an imaginary CIA plot behind every corner, not because of "socialism".
(05-25-2016, 07:10 AM)Odin Wrote: [ -> ]The problems in Venezuela is because the leadership is incompetent and increasingly paranoid, a paranoia primed because of the US's history in the region to see an imaginary CIA plot behind every corner, not because of "socialism".

Yes, it is because of socialism.  Governments are incompetent anyway so the less power you let them have the better off you are going to be.  Your comment is absurd, as usual, because you fail to take in to account the various studies that have been done regarding economic freedom.  It is no coincidence that the more socialist and centrally planned an economy is then the poorer it will tend to be.  It is also no mere coincidence that US economic growth has gone down as government spending has increased.

Given the history of the US in South and Central America it is not unreasonable to be concerned about the US overthrowing the government in Venezuela.
Makes total sense to me. I see it this way. If you have money or resources and give it away to people, they will benefit in the short term but the giver is getting nothing in return. The giver has to make a profit off it somehow to afford to keep this service running. Eventually as they are not making profit it will destabilize and so the center of which was providing this resource will crumble and take everyone down with it. But not before quality service crumbles beforehand. Well, that is the simple way i can see it as. I am no business person. Just a mere designer/writer. I am just picking up pieces which i can understand by listening to those who know more about this topic than I. To make it more personalized helps me see the weaknesses of socialism when implemented by the government and not on an individual level.
(05-25-2016, 03:15 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 02:37 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]How would you suggest then the actions needed to be taken to change the system and fix what needs to be fixed? Other than free markets. We have already addressed that but how do you make that a reality? What steps need to be taken to make that happen? I would like to see action being taken to change the corrupt system.

Right now, people on the whole find the current system tolerable.  Given the appearance of Trump that state of affairs is starting to change.  At that point questions start to be asked and you point them to the answers.  The rest will take care of itself.  Until a question is asked it is impossible to enlighten people.  I don't agree with this guy on many things but he has spotted the main problem, the citizens themselves.

Ambiguous reference.... tsk, tsk. I am not sure that you are talking of Venezuela or of the United States. Venezuela is an economic and political mess.

The US? The system seems to have ways to keep life tolerable. Welfare and subsidized entertainment keep some people quiet.



Quote:The only action that is possible is for large number of people to simply stop obeying.  Until the US has its Soviet Union moment, for pretty much the same reasons, this will not happen and the status quo will be maintained.  It looks like at the very least Trump has made a deal with Sheldon Adelson which suggests to me that Trump will turn out to be a disappointment to his followers for much the same reason Reagan and Obozo were to theirs. 


We are far away from the scenario of the Soviet Union in 1990. It's when the police terror weakened and the Soviet Union started to take on democratic characteristics (free and competitive elections and multiple political parties) that the system began to break down.

By the way -- even if I disliked many of his policies, Ronald Reagan much transformed American politics. Barack Obama probably will appear as an above-average President. 


Quote:In that moment of disappointment then perhaps the faith in the omnipotence of the state will be broken.  After all, that is precisely what happened in the Soviet Union.  Hard to say what will happen after that but when the state is considered a total failure then interest in the Founders and the principles of individual liberty may be rediscovered.  Then again, it may not.



We need to close some of the seams in our system, seams through which ruthless people have driven hard. Let's start by ensuring that politicians serve constituents instead of donors.

Quote:Until then I will continue the attempt to enlighten those that refuse to think, Eric the (Green)  for example, for the benefit of those who will.
[/quote]


You really mean, people who disagree with you, people whose disagreement with you indicates personal stupidity.
(05-25-2016, 04:18 PM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Makes total sense to me. I see it this way. If you have money or resources and give it away to people, they will benefit in the short term but the giver is getting nothing in return. The giver has to make a profit off it somehow to afford to keep this service running. Eventually as they are not making profit it will destabilize and so the center of which was providing this resource will crumble and take everyone down with it. But not before quality service crumbles beforehand. Well, that is the simple way i can see it as. I am no business person. Just a mere designer/writer. I am just picking up pieces which i can understand by listening to those who know more about this topic than I. To make it more personalized helps me see the weaknesses of socialism when implemented by the government and not on an individual level.

By definition socialism is implemented by government.

On the other hand you are doing better right now than most people much older than you are at understanding the role of profit and loss as a signal of success or failure for an established business or entrepreneur.  Success and failure are paired dualities and must be allowed to proceed without hindrance otherwise we are without a rudder.
(05-25-2016, 08:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]You really mean, people who disagree with you, people whose disagreement with you indicates personal stupidity.

I have never suffered fools gladly and I am not about to start now.  I am treating him as I always have those who refuse to think.
(05-25-2016, 08:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:The only action that is possible is for large number of people to simply stop obeying.  Until the US has its Soviet Union moment, for pretty much the same reasons, this will not happen and the status quo will be maintained.  It looks like at the very least Trump has made a deal with Sheldon Adelson which suggests to me that Trump will turn out to be a disappointment to his followers for much the same reason Reagan and Obozo were to theirs. 


We are far away from the scenario of the Soviet Union in 1990. It's when the police terror weakened and the Soviet Union started to take on democratic characteristics (free and competitive elections and multiple political parties) that the system began to break down.

Given the amount federal debt and unfunded liabilities we are not that far from such a moment.  At the time it looked like the Soviet Union was going to be with us and then suddenly it wasn't.  I think one of the reasons the Fed is holding interest rates at zero is because of what would happen to the federal deficit.  In order for the status quo to continue people must believe and when they stop it changes or disappears.

Another thing that happened in the Soviet Union was that people started using the bureaucracy against itself.  Combined with the fact that most did not do more than the minimum which helped sink the system.  Gorbachev tried to save the Soviet System incrementally but it was too far gone.
(05-26-2016, 12:54 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 08:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:The only action that is possible is for large number of people to simply stop obeying.  Until the US has its Soviet Union moment, for pretty much the same reasons, this will not happen and the status quo will be maintained.  It looks like at the very least Trump has made a deal with Sheldon Adelson which suggests to me that Trump will turn out to be a disappointment to his followers for much the same reason Reagan and Obozo were to theirs. 

We are far away from the scenario of the Soviet Union in 1990. It's when the police terror weakened and the Soviet Union started to take on democratic characteristics (free and competitive elections and multiple political parties) that the system began to break down.
Given the amount federal debt and unfunded liabilities we are not that far from such a moment.  At the time it looked like the Soviet Union was going to be with us and then suddenly it wasn't.  I think one of the reasons the Fed is holding interest rates at zero is because of what would happen to the federal deficit.  In order for the status quo to continue people must believe and when they stop it changes or disappears.

Another thing that happened in the Soviet Union was that people started using the bureaucracy against itself.  Combined with the fact that most did not do more than the minimum which helped sink the system.  Gorbachev tried to save the Soviet System incrementally but it was too far gone.

Economically we are close.  Politically we are not.

Gorbachev was Adaptive; Adaptives are naturallly tolerant and Adaptive leaders try to do their best by their people.  In Gorbachev's case, that meant allowing his government to dissolve.

Idealists would never do that.  Can you imagine Lenin dissolving the Soviet state?  The Soviet Union was on the verge of economic collapse for most of a generational cycle, with purges of tens of millions to keep the people in line in the face of mass starvation.  If things continue as they are, the best we can hope for is a bloody coup, or more likely revolution, against an oppressive socialist or fascist government.  More likely, progressive Idealists, Adaptives, and Civics maintain Soviet style oppression until we're rescued by Quiets well into the second half of the century.

That's why it's so important to install or convert leadership which will voluntarily start reversing the centralization of power that has been happening.
Venezuela under Hugo Chavez was a corrupt cult of personality. It had elements of socialism, but there are lots of genuine socialist states that work, and genuine mixed economies that work. Chavez was not only paranoid of the USA and repressive of civil liberties, something that liberals like me oppose strongly, but concentrated all economic power in his own corrupt hands. And it was all based on the outdated export of oil, so that when the price of oil dropped, as it must because it is an anachronistic and archaic technology, the bottom dropped out of their economy. If Venezuela is a communist state, it is a poor excuse for one, because it has always totally failed to control the behavior of its citizens when they resort to crime.
(05-26-2016, 12:17 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 08:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]You really mean, people who disagree with you, people whose disagreement with you indicates personal stupidity.

I have never suffered fools gladly and I am not about to start now.  I am treating him as I always have those who refuse to think.

Yes, to think as you do.
(09-06-2016, 12:52 AM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2016, 12:17 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 08:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]You really mean, people who disagree with you, people whose disagreement with you indicates personal stupidity.

I have never suffered fools gladly and I am not about to start now.  I am treating him as I always have those who refuse to think.

Yes, to think as you do.
More like to think at all in your case.  If you knew anything about computational complexity and information theory then you would already understand why socialism and communism fail everywhere they are ever tried.  Since those two subjects are beyond you I don't expect you to learn anything about Marginal Utility theory and its relation to how prices signal to market actors about the relative scarcity of items and why that also dooms any economy that adopts socialism or central planning.
Yes, we all get it. In a tyranny, people are at least free to believe what the Leader says is the truth...

Now that we have a dictatorial leader in America...
(05-26-2016, 12:54 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 08:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:The only action that is possible is for large number of people to simply stop obeying.  Until the US has its Soviet Union moment, for pretty much the same reasons, this will not happen and the status quo will be maintained.  It looks like at the very least Trump has made a deal with Sheldon Adelson which suggests to me that Trump will turn out to be a disappointment to his followers for much the same reason Reagan and Obozo were to theirs. 


We are far away from the scenario of the Soviet Union in 1990. It's when the police terror weakened and the Soviet Union started to take on democratic characteristics (free and competitive elections and multiple political parties) that the system began to break down.

Given the amount federal debt and unfunded liabilities we are not that far from such a moment.  At the time it looked like the Soviet Union was going to be with us and then suddenly it wasn't.  I think one of the reasons the Fed is holding interest rates at zero is because of what would happen to the federal deficit.  In order for the status quo to continue people must believe and when they stop it changes or disappears.

Another thing that happened in the Soviet Union was that people started using the bureaucracy against itself.  Combined with the fact that most did not do more than the minimum which helped sink the system.  Gorbachev tried to save the Soviet System incrementally but it was too far gone.

1.Yeah, but the "status quo" is the Federal Government and assorted scammy oligarchies[Big Pharma, Big Oil, Big Banking, etc. ] put together.

2. Kinser79's .sig has the solution, pretty much. 
"Turn on to Daddy, Tune in to Nationalism, Drop out of UN/NATO/WTO/TPP/NAFTA/CAFTA Globalism."
As for Trump, if by choice or accident, he crashes the financial markets, that would be a plus. Big Grin
Randall Flagg's calling with an inbound message:   "I'll set you high in my council Rags, and I'll set you to burn".



Globalization is last, but yeah, I don't like it either.  I see no reason why the US citizens via the MIC have to protect shipping lanes all by itself for something that I have no use for.  


2. Opting out is a perfect thing the Russians did to crash the Soviet Union. It's pretty easy to just say no to Ishits, banks, new gadgets, etc. 

3. I'll have to think on this using the bureaucracy against itself... I'm sure there's lots of internal inconsistencies there.
(03-27-2017, 12:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-26-2016, 12:54 AM)Galen Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-25-2016, 08:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:The only action that is possible is for large number of people to simply stop obeying.  Until the US has its Soviet Union moment, for pretty much the same reasons, this will not happen and the status quo will be maintained.  It looks like at the very least Trump has made a deal with Sheldon Adelson which suggests to me that Trump will turn out to be a disappointment to his followers for much the same reason Reagan and Obozo were to theirs. 


We are far away from the scenario of the Soviet Union in 1990. It's when the police terror weakened and the Soviet Union started to take on democratic characteristics (free and competitive elections and multiple political parties) that the system began to break down.

Given the amount federal debt and unfunded liabilities we are not that far from such a moment.  At the time it looked like the Soviet Union was going to be with us and then suddenly it wasn't.  I think one of the reasons the Fed is holding interest rates at zero is because of what would happen to the federal deficit.  In order for the status quo to continue people must believe and when they stop it changes or disappears.

Another thing that happened in the Soviet Union was that people started using the bureaucracy against itself.  Combined with the fact that most did not do more than the minimum which helped sink the system.  Gorbachev tried to save the Soviet System incrementally but it was too far gone.

1.Yeah, but the "status quo" is the Federal Government and assorted scammy oligarchies[Big Pharma, Big Oil, Big Banking, etc. ] put together.

2. Kinser79's .sig has the solution, pretty much. 

Naaah, kinser has no "solutions"

Quote:As for Trump, if by choice or accident, he crashes the financial markets, that would be a plus. Big Grin

No, it would not be, because the oligarchs are always in the best position after crashes, and they take advantage of them to concentrate their power.

Quote:


Globalization is last, but yeah, I don't like it either.  I see no reason why the US citizens via the MIC have to protect shipping lanes all by itself for something that I have no use for.  

You have a point there. Not very practical, but then, since when is Rags practical? But yeah, who needs shipping lanes when we should be making things and buying things in America?

But that Trashcan guy you keep posting is ugly!
As long as we outgrow our debt, we are fine. I'd rather have $200K in debt and earnings of $100K a year than have $500 in savings and an income of $12K a year. The fellow with the high debt and income is a physician, and the person who is barely above water might be living on disability.
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