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11-14-2016, 02:38 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2016, 02:40 AM by Eric the Green.)
The Democratic voters are the majority in this country, yet we have no voice in the federal government and not much voice at the state level either. The Republicans are able to routinely now win the electoral college despite our majority, and squeeze us out.
The Republicans don't represent the people, but only the wealthy and powerful, as they:
1. Declare war on the environment, emasculate or shut down the EPA and unleash more global warming during the only time left for averting disaster.
2. Unleash trickle-down economics on a massive scale with huge tax cuts for the wealthy, massive repeal of business regulations, and massive cuts to social programs, possibly including medicare and social security as well as health care reform, and huge new debt; even after two previous administrations in which this program was tried and failed.
3. Provide a voice or an excuse for prejudice or violence against non-white, non-Christian Americans and women, and possible deportations of immigrants who may have committed no crime, and curtailing voting rights, the free press, the right to protest, and other rights important to these and other groups and all people.
4. Waste billions on an un-needed military and nuclear weapons expansion, thus providing new military toys to put at the hands of an unstable and tempermental (and perhaps treasonous) reality-TV star commander in chief who thinks he can get away with anything.
5. And lots more; what else have I forgot?
The demonstrations that Galen ridicules are in fact means of helping to organize this opposition, and a new DNC chair will lead it. This effort starting now was broadcast on the news concerning a huge demonstration tonight as people joined hands around Lake Merritt in Oakland. It's happening. I think those of us who agree need to join in. Democrats and Democratic voters need to organize the resistance to the Republican takeover now, and for years to come. We will need to write to Democratic legislators to man-up and resist Trump's Court nominees, and oppose all the Republican plans, unless they are consistent with the goals of progressive Democrats.
What is happening where you live?
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So the Democrats are going to double down on their losing strategy? Excellent.
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11-14-2016, 02:52 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2016, 02:54 AM by Galen.)
(11-14-2016, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The demonstrations that Galen ridicules are in fact means of helping to organize this opposition, and a new DNC chair will lead it. This effort starting now was broadcast on the news concerning a huge demonstration tonight as people joined hands around Lake Merritt in Oakland. It's happening. I think those of us who agree need to join in. Democrats and Democratic voters need to organize the resistance to the Republican takeover now, and for years to come. We will need to write to Democratic legislators to man-up and resist Trump's Court nominees, and oppose all the Republican plans, unless they are consistent with the goals of progressive Democrats.
What is happening where you live?
The protestors are doing an excellent job of annoying everyone else. Truth is, most people just wish they would go away so they can get on with their lives. Even the Millies, particularly the ones with jobs, aren't very happy with them. If you don't live near a college campus and don't follow the news, you would never know they were happening. If you have been impacted by them then chances are that you are unhappy with them.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(11-14-2016, 02:52 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: So the Democrats are going to double down on their losing strategy? Excellent.
That 'losing strategy' may be the only defense of human dignity, the most precious commodity in human existence. We are humans -- not livestock or vermin. Trusting in the magnanimity of elites is pure foolishness.
I want our new leaders to know that there is some accountability for policies that hurt Americans. The worst thing possible is for people to shut their mouths, hide their pain with forced smiles, click their heels, salute a leadership that at most a half of the electorate has supported, and just work as commanded. Then they really get things at their worst because the Master Class will demand ever more.
It is worth remembering that what the Right says of liberals also applies to them when they go arrogant, corrupt, and despotic -- a Nation is free only when the government fears the People. Know well that we on the Left have heard the anti-government protests against them and can use some of the rhetoric of the anti-government rhetoric of Clive Bundy, et al.
What applies to governments also applies to the economic elites behind them. Those elites have no particular blessing from God to treat the rest of Humanity badly. We are all equal in our humanity, lest we kill each other.
....Donald Trump will establish policies that make America tribal -- communities defined by faith or ethnicity with sharp barriers between each other except in making alliances against enemies. He will shatter such unity as has been allowing some homogenization of culture. The dream of getting ahead in America will become protection of what one has.
The best thing that can happen is for Trump/GOP policies get a 1929-style crash that forces people to recognize the ineffectiveness of "Sadonomics". Then Americans will demand the sorts of economic reforms that better prepare us for the post-industrial world. A return to the Gilded Age is practically begging for the panics of the Gilded Era and its extension -- as in 1893, 1907, and 1929. America needs a 'new FDR' or a 'new Lincoln'. Hillary Clinton was not going to be that.
I see Donald Trump as Herbert Hoover without the moral compass. He will make a mess of the Obama recovery and support policies that intensify the human suffering for its own sake... which will be far more dangerous .
There is good reason for the existence of liberals. Where we are absent or where we are silenced, all sorts of horrors are possible. We are the better problem solvers for ethnic, class, and religious strife. Go ahead, right-wingers -- take delight in your complete dominion over much of America. The people that you angered against liberals can turn against you when the economy becomes a nightmare.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(11-14-2016, 02:52 AM)Galen Wrote: (11-14-2016, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The demonstrations that Galen ridicules are in fact means of helping to organize this opposition, and a new DNC chair will lead it. This effort starting now was broadcast on the news concerning a huge demonstration tonight as people joined hands around Lake Merritt in Oakland. It's happening. I think those of us who agree need to join in. Democrats and Democratic voters need to organize the resistance to the Republican takeover now, and for years to come. We will need to write to Democratic legislators to man-up and resist Trump's Court nominees, and oppose all the Republican plans, unless they are consistent with the goals of progressive Democrats.
What is happening where you live?
The protestors are doing an excellent job of annoying everyone else. Truth is, most people just wish they would go away so they can get on with their lives. Even the Millies, particularly the ones with jobs, aren't very happy with them. If you don't live near a college campus and don't follow the news, you would never know they were happening. If you have been impacted by them then chances are that you are unhappy with them.
I can just imagine what you and right-wing journalistic whores will say -- don't these people have work to do?
If we vote for a horrible man for public office, then we deserve to be annoyed. And I hope to be one of those to annoy you! Sure, there were places in which people could not annoy their brethren about the vileness of the government. Yes -- Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, Franco's Spain, Pinochet's Chile, Saddam's Iraq... let's not go down that course.
The problem with the Boston Tea Party of 1775 wasn't that those participating in it weren't instead doing some 'productive work' instead. the problem with the Abolitionist movement wasn't that its members weren't instead plowing the fields. the problem with labor unions struggling for workers' rights in a time in which industrial workers were working 70-hour workweeks and dying off at age 40 was that they weren't instead doing more work in the mines and mills. The problem with the Suffragettes wan;t that they were not instead doing more household cleaning. The problem with the Civil Rights movement wasn't that the 'uppity n----rs' weren't instead chopping cotton. The problem was that something was in need of fixing, and that people needed to call attention to such. The problem with environmental activists of the 1970s wasn't that they weren't instead cutting down the trees for timber that they wanted to protect.
Not everything is a matter of profit and loss, toil and gain (especially for the economic elites). We need a good society, one in which people are genuinely happy -- and not scared out of their wits by a brutal government.
We stand up to the Hard Right now or we get hard time in political prisons. It could be that simple.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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11-14-2016, 10:41 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-14-2016, 10:51 AM by Anthony '58.)
Re FDR: On a trip to NYC some years ago, I happened, without planning it, to walk past the city's first public housing project, in Long Island City, Queens. It was constructed in 1929 - while FDR was governor of New York!
The point being that the Democrats can now concentrate on experimenting with innovative new programs in the states where they have "trifectas" - the governorship and both houses of the state legislature; this means Delaware, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Oregon, Rhode Island, and (maybe) North Carolina (!). This could be especially true in the realm of health care, post-ObamaCare.
And imagine if the new FDR turns out to be the spectacularly electable Roy Cooper?
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation" - Justice David Brewer, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
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You can donate to the ACLU or the Southern Poverty Law Center. https://www.aclu.org/action https://www.splcenter.org/
Support your news outlets as best you can. A free press is one of the first things to go under an autocracy. Trump has been attacking the press all through his campaign, and lately blaming them for the protests around the country.
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(11-14-2016, 02:29 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Don't fall into the trap of trying to fit this into the classic Dem vs Rep framework. Alt-Right are faux "Right." They are a destructive revolutionary force. There are also similar forces in quarters of the Left. Then there are sane people. Partisanship is in need of suspension, in order to combat a terrible evil.
Partisanship needs to be revved up to top speed, in order to combat a terrible evil.
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(11-14-2016, 02:26 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (11-14-2016, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Democratic voters are the majority in this country, yet we have no voice in the federal government and not much voice at the state level either. The Republicans are able to routinely now win the electoral college despite our majority, and squeeze us out.
The Republicans don't represent the people, but only the wealthy and powerful, as they:
1. Declare war on the environment, emasculate or shut down the EPA and unleash more global warming during the only time left for averting disaster.
2. Unleash trickle-down economics on a massive scale with huge tax cuts for the wealthy, massive repeal of business regulations, and massive cuts to social programs, possibly including medicare and social security as well as health care reform, and huge new debt; even after two previous administrations in which this program was tried and failed.
3. Provide a voice or an excuse for prejudice or violence against non-white, non-Christian Americans and women, and possible deportations of immigrants who may have committed no crime, and curtailing voting rights, the free press, the right to protest, and other rights important to these and other groups and all people.
4. Waste billions on an un-needed military and nuclear weapons expansion, thus providing new military toys to put at the hands of an unstable and tempermental (and perhaps treasonous) reality-TV star commander in chief who thinks he can get away with anything.
5. And lots more; what else have I forgot?
The demonstrations that Galen ridicules are in fact means of helping to organize this opposition, and a new DNC chair will lead it. This effort starting now was broadcast on the news concerning a huge demonstration tonight as people joined hands around Lake Merritt in Oakland. It's happening. I think those of us who agree need to join in. Democrats and Democratic voters need to organize the resistance to the Republican takeover now, and for years to come. We will need to write to Democratic legislators to man-up and resist Trump's Court nominees, and oppose all the Republican plans, unless they are consistent with the goals of progressive Democrats.
What is happening where you live?
There are plenty of Republicans and independent people who lean Right, who don't want to screw the environment, who don't feel right about income inequality, and, who are gravely concerned about the possibility of NATO falling apart. The way to stop Trump is a coalition of concerned Americans, who set party aside for a greater cause.
There are NO such Republicans, except perhaps a few in blue states like CA. We need to rev up partisanship. The Republicans are the ones doing all this. They want to do all this. Observe and remember who the Republicans are, and what they did over the past decades. The Democrats need to re-organize to become militant progressives, willing to stop the Repugs by any means necessary. The Democrats need to make it clear that they are the party that supports working people, not Trump. Trump is a fraud and must be stopped and debunked at every opportunity.
Some Republicans may be concerned about NATO, that's true. But I don't care anymore, because as long as we don't have a United States, we don't really have a NATO either. And we DON'T have a United States of America anymore; it's GONE!
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(11-14-2016, 02:26 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: There are plenty of Republicans and independent people who lean Right, who don't want to screw the environment, who don't feel right about income inequality, and, who are gravely concerned about the possibility of NATO falling apart. The way to stop Trump is a coalition of concerned Americans, who set party aside for a greater cause.
Trump doesn't exist in a vacuum. If one cares about NATO, for example, one might write to one's senators to try to influence confirmation hearings on the nomination for Secretary of State. For Republicans, emphasize that the nominee must support NATO; for Democrats, suggest that they might want to set aside partisanship and compromise on a nominee who was not crazy enough to jettison NATO.
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(11-14-2016, 03:21 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (11-14-2016, 02:40 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (11-14-2016, 02:26 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (11-14-2016, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Democratic voters are the majority in this country, yet we have no voice in the federal government and not much voice at the state level either. The Republicans are able to routinely now win the electoral college despite our majority, and squeeze us out.
The Republicans don't represent the people, but only the wealthy and powerful, as they:
1. Declare war on the environment, emasculate or shut down the EPA and unleash more global warming during the only time left for averting disaster.
2. Unleash trickle-down economics on a massive scale with huge tax cuts for the wealthy, massive repeal of business regulations, and massive cuts to social programs, possibly including medicare and social security as well as health care reform, and huge new debt; even after two previous administrations in which this program was tried and failed.
3. Provide a voice or an excuse for prejudice or violence against non-white, non-Christian Americans and women, and possible deportations of immigrants who may have committed no crime, and curtailing voting rights, the free press, the right to protest, and other rights important to these and other groups and all people.
4. Waste billions on an un-needed military and nuclear weapons expansion, thus providing new military toys to put at the hands of an unstable and tempermental (and perhaps treasonous) reality-TV star commander in chief who thinks he can get away with anything.
5. And lots more; what else have I forgot?
The demonstrations that Galen ridicules are in fact means of helping to organize this opposition, and a new DNC chair will lead it. This effort starting now was broadcast on the news concerning a huge demonstration tonight as people joined hands around Lake Merritt in Oakland. It's happening. I think those of us who agree need to join in. Democrats and Democratic voters need to organize the resistance to the Republican takeover now, and for years to come. We will need to write to Democratic legislators to man-up and resist Trump's Court nominees, and oppose all the Republican plans, unless they are consistent with the goals of progressive Democrats.
What is happening where you live?
There are plenty of Republicans and independent people who lean Right, who don't want to screw the environment, who don't feel right about income inequality, and, who are gravely concerned about the possibility of NATO falling apart. The way to stop Trump is a coalition of concerned Americans, who set party aside for a greater cause.
There are NO such Republicans, except perhaps a few in blue states like CA. We need to rev up partisanship. The Republicans are the ones doing all this. They want to do all this. Observe and remember who the Republicans are, and what they did over the past decades. The Democrats need to re-organize to become militant progressives, willing to stop the Repugs by any means necessary. The Democrats need to make it clear that they are the party that supports working people, not Trump. Trump is a fraud and must be stopped and debunked at every opportunity.
Some Republicans may be concerned about NATO, that's true. But I don't care anymore, because as long as we don't have a United States, we don't really have a NATO either. And we DON'T have a United States of America anymore; it's GONE!
The Alt-Right / SCO want you to rev up your partisanship. They want you to spin angrily. It's one of the oldest games in the book: "Divide and conquer."
That's what Trump did. Now we must resist him. The Right and the Alt Right are the enemy. Reaganism is the enemy.
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11-15-2016, 12:42 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2016, 12:42 AM by Warren Dew.)
(11-14-2016, 11:52 AM)gabrielle Wrote: You can donate to the ACLU or the Southern Poverty Law Center. https://www.aclu.org/action https://www.splcenter.org/
Support your news outlets as best you can. A free press is one of the first things to go under an autocracy. Trump has been attacking the press all through his campaign, and lately blaming them for the protests around the country.
Agreed regarding the ACLU. They're one of the few organizations to promote civil liberties for everyone, not just the left. I've been a member for a couple of decades now.
ACLU support for the Skokie and Citizens United decisions is a testament to their integrity.
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11-15-2016, 01:25 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2016, 01:27 AM by Eric the Green.)
(11-14-2016, 11:52 AM)gabrielle Wrote: You can donate to the ACLU or the Southern Poverty Law Center. https://www.aclu.org/action https://www.splcenter.org/
Support your news outlets as best you can. A free press is one of the first things to go under an autocracy. Trump has been attacking the press all through his campaign, and lately blaming them for the protests around the country.
Those are good suggestions. I have donated to the SPLC before. I guess supporting the free press means subscribing to a good newspaper; what else it could mean I'm not sure. Oppose attacks on it by the government by protesting and writing congress, I guess. I don't support my PBS station because it runs too many commercials. But it might be a good option.
My first priority for support goes to environmental organizations. That is the most severe threat from Trump-Pence-Ryan.
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(11-15-2016, 01:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: My first priority for support goes to environmental organizations. That is the most severe threat from Trump-Pence-Ryan.
You mean the "environmental" organizations that opposed the carbon tax in Washington state?
There aren't any real environmental organizations any more - not ones that care about the environment, anyway.
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11-15-2016, 02:47 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2016, 02:48 AM by Eric the Green.)
(11-15-2016, 02:32 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: (11-15-2016, 01:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: My first priority for support goes to environmental organizations. That is the most severe threat from Trump-Pence-Ryan.
You mean the "environmental" organizations that opposed the carbon tax in Washington state?
An unfortunate decision by the Sierra Club; they also opposed a transit tax in Santa Clara County that I voted for.
Quote:There aren't any real environmental organizations any more - not ones that care about the environment, anyway.
There are many great ones that do care a lot, and work a lot. The Sierra Club might have got that one wrong, but they have done great work since 1892. And I heard from the Sierra Club president today by email, saying he's ready to stand up to the Trumpsters.
So, why would you conclude from the Sierra Club's mistake in Washington state, that there aren't any environmental organizations anymore that care about the environment?
https://www.nrdc.org/
http://www.nature.org/
http://www.worldwildlife.org/
https://www.edf.org/
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11-15-2016, 09:22 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2016, 09:23 AM by Warren Dew.)
Standing up to Trump is not an environmental position, it's a partisan political decision. That's the whole problem: these groups are happy to take political positions favoring the Democrats, but don't bother with actual environmental positions any more.
The EDF and NRDC also opposed the Washington state carbon tax.
The World Wildlife Fund, which I continue to donate to, doesn't worry about global warming. Neither does the Nature Conservancy, as far as I know.
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(11-15-2016, 09:22 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Standing up to Trump is not an environmental position, it's a partisan political decision. That's the whole problem: these groups are happy to take political positions favoring the Democrats, but don't bother with actual environmental positions any more.
The EDF and NRDC also opposed the Washington state carbon tax.
The World Wildlife Fund, which I continue to donate to, doesn't worry about global warming. Neither does the Nature Conservancy, as far as I know.
umm, ...
https://www.worldwildlife.org/initiatives/climate
Quote:Climate change poses a fundamental threat to the places, species and communities WWF works to protect. Around the globe, we already feel the effects of climate change; our communities and Earth’s wildlife and ecosystems are being forever changed.
...
For four decades, WWF has been part of the movement to fight this global crisis. Our vision is a world powered by renewable energy, where communities and ecosystems are resilient in the face of climate changes. We engage millions of Americans, leading businesses and government leaders to realize this future. Preparing local communities, helping ecosystems adapt to rapid change, and reducing the emissions that drive climate change are critical to a safer world for ourselves, our children and the rest of life on Earth.
I'm a big fan of WWF as well, but to say they don't worry about global warming, is, well ... maybe we shouldn't take that statement literally ... 
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(11-15-2016, 10:27 AM)tg63 Wrote: (11-15-2016, 09:22 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Standing up to Trump is not an environmental position, it's a partisan political decision. That's the whole problem: these groups are happy to take political positions favoring the Democrats, but don't bother with actual environmental positions any more.
The EDF and NRDC also opposed the Washington state carbon tax.
The World Wildlife Fund, which I continue to donate to, doesn't worry about global warming. Neither does the Nature Conservancy, as far as I know.
umm, ...
https://www.worldwildlife.org/initiatives/climate
Quote:Climate change poses a fundamental threat to the places, species and communities WWF works to protect. Around the globe, we already feel the effects of climate change; our communities and Earth’s wildlife and ecosystems are being forever changed.
...
For four decades, WWF has been part of the movement to fight this global crisis. Our vision is a world powered by renewable energy, where communities and ecosystems are resilient in the face of climate changes. We engage millions of Americans, leading businesses and government leaders to realize this future. Preparing local communities, helping ecosystems adapt to rapid change, and reducing the emissions that drive climate change are critical to a safer world for ourselves, our children and the rest of life on Earth.
I'm a big fan of WWF as well, but to say they don't worry about global warming, is, well ... maybe we shouldn't take that statement literally ...
Okay, to be more specific, they don't worry about top down enforcement of global warming prevention initiatives in the U.S. They may support bottom up solutions, like encouraging people to install rooftop solar, but their primary focus is on overseas initiatives.
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11-15-2016, 04:36 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2016, 05:01 PM by Eric the Green.)
(11-15-2016, 09:22 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Standing up to Trump is not an environmental position, it's a partisan political decision. That's the whole problem: these groups are happy to take political positions favoring the Democrats, but don't bother with actual environmental positions any more.
The EDF and NRDC also opposed the Washington state carbon tax.
The World Wildlife Fund, which I continue to donate to, doesn't worry about global warming. Neither does the Nature Conservancy, as far as I know.
Yes they do worry about global warming, I get their literature. No environmental organization would NOT "worry" about that most basic critical issue, or not pay attention to the science about it.
Standing up to Trump, as these organizations know, is now the top priority for environmentalists. To care about the environment, is of course to oppose Trump. Democrats provide government policies that protect the environment. The voting record is clear on that; look up the League of Conservation Voters and see the record on that; it's 90% to below 10%. I have posted this here umteen times. Favoring Democrats IS to take an environmental position. Libertarians might not agree with that, but that's just ideological. Government is necessary, and we need more of it, not less. Pollution and global warming and destruction of habitat are not caused by environmental laws. Business is the main cause of those things. It needs to be regulated and taxed. Or the environment gets destroyed. We go back to before the 60s and live in a garbage heap, then, without the environmental laws and political activism that libertarians oppose. Libertarian economics (trickle-down, free market, classical liberalism, social darwinism, rugged individualism; supply side, Reaganomics; it goes by many names) is the chief problem in our society today, and the principle cause of all our problems. It needs to be ditched, and I hope someday it will be. It justifies non-action by the government, and without government, we destroy ourselves.
If some environmental organizations were mistaken on the carbon tax, I agree with you; but you can't conclude from that one mistake that they don't care about the environment. And they all do non-political work too, and partner with some businesses who are willing to cooperate. That's all available for you to see on the links I posted, and that's just a few of the many great environmental organizations. Now there's some people I am "positive" about. Cheers for these people, and I wish I did more to help them myself.
To resist Trump, supporting the environment is the best path you can take, because that's Trump's number one target: our environment. He and Ryan have declared war on the Earth we depend on for life, and they won't stop until they've turned every last bit of it into money for themselves.
Pray for our Earth; pray for the people to wake up, pray for the ones not breathing.....
And I pray too, for all the millions of folks still hooked on Reaganomics, to wake up........
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11-15-2016, 04:51 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2016, 04:54 PM by Eric the Green.)
"Okay, to be more specific, they don't worry about top down enforcement of global warming prevention initiatives in the U.S. They may support bottom up solutions, like encouraging people to install rooftop solar, but their primary focus is on overseas initiatives."
Sorry, but it has to be "top down," which of course really means "bottom up." We the people, through our government, and our activism, must topple the top down people, the 1%, who destroy our environment to boost their own wealth and power, and subject these top people to the law. That's the real "top down" that needs to be stopped. The government program called corporate America and big money. Powerful people, working in top-down authoritarian corporations, destroying the bottom-most living beings, the life that has no voice without environmentalists and Democrats.
I honestly don't see how you fail to get this. It's been crystal clear to me for 55 years. Why don't you see it, Warren?
You have your way now. How much longer will you "not worry" that the globe is warming, as the temps now start to go through the roof?
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