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Here’s a CNN article on a father of a Sandy Hook victim receiving death threats from a woman who believes Sandy Hook was a hoax created by gun prohibitionist activists. While it is of note regarding just the narrow gun policy discussion, I’d like to work it at a higher level.
As most should know by know, my understanding of humans is that they reject fact that conflicts with their values. In this case the woman crying hoax has a strong right to bear arms perspective. With it comes an impulse to deny any evidence that owning and carrying weapons might be problematic. Not just on this issue, but on any issue, there is a common notion that one can doubt to disregard any media outlet that presents information one doesn’t like. I recall a broad dismissal of the NY Times recently on this forum. There are bunches of folks who wouldn’t recommend Breitbart as precisely fair and balanced. Thus, the notion of rejecting major events as media fabrications fits with how lots of folks think about the media these days. It’s all lies. One can disregard what one doesn’t want to hear. One can embrace and practice hate speech and death threats based on what one does want to hear.
I’ll mention climate science denialism as another issue where both the scientific and main stream press is frequently dismissed in favor of what one wants to hear.
Various dystopian novels and movies warn of how in the dark future propaganda and lies will be used by the dark ruling elites to snooker the common man. Orwell’s ‘doublespeak’ from 1984 will stand as one example. Real world autocratic governments who seize control of the media to present state propaganda is another example of how falsehood might be pressed on the people. Neither approach seems to be quite matching the reality of the modern Big Lie. There are large numbers of media outlets providing a smorgasbord of assorted truths for consumption according to one’s tastes. If one is a rabid fan of unquestioned unrestricted owning and carrying weapons, one can find outlets that will turn Sandy Hook into a liberal mainstream media hoax. If one favors any sort of off the wall theory, one might well be able to find a set of media outlets that will tell one what one wants to hear, the more clicks the better.
This isn’t exactly a new observation. I just thought I’d start a thread centered on this sort of thing.
Of course Trump was rated as having more ‘pants on fire’ than most anyone in history. He understands what certain people want to hear quite well. He seems ready to assume that he can get away with telling certain folks what they want to believe. Zillions of illegal voters. He never endorsed lots more countries getting the bomb. He will use the Big Lie blatantly and openly, no matter how easy they might be to debunk. Worse, it seems to work for him.
It’s a problem far easier to describe than fix. What issues do you feel are being pushed as Big Lies? What might be done to return to reality based thinking?
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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It's an excellent point, and I agree that the diagnosis is easier than the cure. In an allegedly "free" society like ours, it's hard to legislate against fake news, which rumor has it is being considered.
I am used to have some "answers" for things, as I see them, and in this case I am at a loss. One thing we can say, is that policies are created based on what people choose to believe, and policies have consequences. Whether the people understand, accept and face up to the consequences of such things as climate science denial, or gun policy, or trickle-down, borrow-and-spend economics, remains to be seen. But we cannot escape the consequences of our decisions.
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(12-09-2016, 03:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's an excellent point, and I agree that the diagnosis is easier than the cure. In an allegedly "free" society like ours, it's hard to legislate against fake news, which rumor has it is being considered.
I am used to have some "answers" for things, as I see them, and in this case I am at a loss. One thing we can say, is that policies are created based on what people choose to believe, and policies have consequences. Whether the people understand, accept and face up to the consequences of such things as climate science denial, or gun policy, or trickle-down, borrow-and-spend economics, remains to be seen. But we cannot escape the consequences of our decisions.
It can be as horrid as Holocaust denial (the ultimate Big Lie unless someone tries to deny the Atlantic slave trade) to potentially harmful (like anti-vaxxer stuff) and simply cranky (claiming that the Moon landings were faked in a Hollywood soundstage). Then of course is the ultimate conspiracy story of 9/11 as an inside plot or the canard that Barack Obama was not born in the USA. Even with a little more than one month left in the term of Barack Obama as President, some people proclaim the canard as hard as ever.
Some people hold ideological doctrine as the ultimate truth... thus the fraudulent contention that guns make people safer, the denial of climate change, and the endorsement of trickle-down and borrow-and-spend economics. When such people have total power, consequences can be horrible... and people must find the truth the hard way.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(12-09-2016, 03:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I’ll mention climate science denialism as another issue where both the scientific and main stream press is frequently dismissed in favor of what one wants to hear.
This is a problem on both the denialist and alarmist sides. You don't see climate alarmists citing Lindzen's pieces in either scientific journals or the WSJ.
Quote:It’s a problem far easier to describe than fix. What issues do you feel are being pushed as Big Lies? What might be done to return to reality based thinking?
For the last, do your own fact checking on everything you read. Frequent the few news sources that are rigorous about their facts, such as 538 and Stratfor, even if you have to adjust for some spin in the article verbiage at 538.
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(12-09-2016, 03:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's an excellent point, and I agree that the diagnosis is easier than the cure. In an allegedly "free" society like ours, it's hard to legislate against fake news, which rumor has it is being considered.
Yes, but we have an educational system. Why aren't we teaching kids that truth is precious and that falsehood is harmful?
In a community in which anyone can play the role of a journalist but nobody needs assume the old responsibility of fact checking, then we need to do our own fact-checking. When we get news from a source, we need to find the provenance of the news. For example, your cousin on Facebook is obviously not a journalist unless you know otherwise. Facebook is not a news source and does not pretend to be. It is possible to get news through Facebook, but you might want to know whether the original source is trustworthy. And, yes, you must fact-check if the journalists and editors are too lazy or dishonest to do so.
Quote:I am used to have some "answers" for things, as I see them, and in this case I am at a loss. One thing we can say, is that policies are created based on what people choose to believe, and policies have consequences. Whether the people understand, accept and face up to the consequences of such things as climate science denial, or gun policy, or trickle-down, borrow-and-spend economics, remains to be seen. But we cannot escape the consequences of our decisions.
Most of us are somewhat insulated from the harshest realities of the world. When things go bad -- really bad -- we will turn upon those culpable. I expect the Trump Administration to demand great sacrifices from the little man on behalf of economic elites whom we are to trust to do good things for us by indulging their unrestrained selfishness. When we find that falsehoods and extremism really hurt us, we will turn on falsehoods and extremism.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Here's one test of the validity of a conspiracy theory: if the criminal wrongdoing is so severe that its exposure would serve the interests of a hostile power to the danger of the sovereignty of a nation or its allies, or if it constitutes a crime that would lead to long prison terms or execution for those high in a hierarchy if it were to ever be brought to trial or the overthrow of the regime, and anyone who exposes it would be killed for exposing it, then the story is likely true. The worst crimes of state actors, like massacres at the behest of political or military leadership, can seem absurd. Imagine that you are a German in 1944 and you hear this:
Quote:Remember the Jews who got taken away from German towns? They were first 'resettled' in ghettos in Poland where they could only starve slowly while being worked to death... but they are now being taken to places where they are all killed. They are told that they are taking showers, obliged to strip naked, and herded into the showers. But there is no water. The doors are locked, and someone gases them. That's done to men and women alike, small children and old people, whatever their political views and whatever they did. People who did nothing really wrong are being murdered.
Hitler has to know. Churchill, Stalin, and Roosevelt -- they surely know.
Of course it is crazy. After all, "We live in a civilized country, and the BBC will say any lie that can hurt the German people". At the end of the war, nobody could deny it after having a guided tour of Buchenwald or Dachau under the armed guard of American soldiers.
The conspiracy story that would embarrass political leadership if true that that leadership brushes off with no consequences to those who disseminate the story probably has nothing behind it. Thus the 'faked moon landing', 'alien bodies tucked away at Roswell', 'AIDS a plot to kill black men', 'the elder Bush having sex with boys', 'drug activity at Mena, Arkansas that the President knows about', 'FEMA camps', '9/11 is an inside job', or 'Barack Obama was really born in Kenya' won't get one killed. Even a story about mass graves is almost certainly fake -- unless people who tell the story disappear or die under suspicious circumstances, in which case there probably is some mass killing that can be attributed to people high up in the government.
One might have been killed for exposing the Holocaust in Nazi Germany.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Trump supporters believe lies.
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12-10-2016, 06:28 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2016, 06:29 PM by radind.)
Big lies told by Clinton.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(12-10-2016, 05:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump supporters believe lies.
Knowing that the President that we are about to get was elected by people who fell for a campaign of Goebbels-like lies makes me regret that I am an American. I have no idea of any relief that I can have in knowing that I am right, especially when being right means feeling an alien in the country in which one was born.
Reality has an uncanny knack for hitting the stupid and deluded hard. It can also hit the rational and learned hard, too.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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12-12-2016, 02:25 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2016, 02:38 AM by Eric the Green.)
(12-10-2016, 06:28 PM)radind Wrote: Big lies told by Clinton.
There were none.
The BIGGEST lie, was the lie told by Trump and his supporters that Hillary made big lies.
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(12-12-2016, 02:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-10-2016, 06:28 PM)radind Wrote: Big lies told by Clinton.
There were none.
The BIGGEST lie, was the lie told by Trump and his supporters that Hillary made big lies.
No hope for those defending Clinton lies.
I will wait for results after Trump inaugaration.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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Fake news stories can have real-life consequences. On Sunday, police said a man with a rifle who claimed to be "self-investigating" a baseless online conspiracy theory entered a Washington, D.C., pizzeria and fired the weapon inside the restaurant.
So, yes, fake news is a big problem.
These stories have gotten a lot of attention, with headlines claiming Pope Francis endorsed Donald Trump in November's election and sites like American News sharing misleading stories or taking quotes out of context. And when sites like DC Gazette share stories about people who allegedly investigated the Clinton family being found dead, the stories go viral and some people believe them. Again, these stories are not true in any way.
Stopping the proliferation of fake news isn't just the responsibility of the platforms used to spread it. Those who consume news also need to find ways of determining if what they're reading is true.
http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsi...rm=nprnews
It will likely get worse as America's Great and Glorious Leader insists that his view is the only valid view for the rest of us, and news media comply with him or get cut off from useful news. They shut down or they pay attention to celebrity news, fashion, or other such fluff.
At least I am in the range of news from the Free World (Canada) as of January 21. Heck, when I lived in Dallas I could occasionally pick up a station from Winnipeg.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(12-12-2016, 09:26 AM)radind Wrote: (12-12-2016, 02:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-10-2016, 06:28 PM)radind Wrote: Big lies told by Clinton.
There were none.
The BIGGEST lie, was the lie told by Trump and his supporters that Hillary made big lies.
No hope for those defending Clinton lies.
I will wait for results after Trump inaugaration.
There were no big Hillary Clinton lies. There's nothing to wait for, except to watch helplessly as Grumpf destroys life on this planet.
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(12-12-2016, 02:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-12-2016, 09:26 AM)radind Wrote: (12-12-2016, 02:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-10-2016, 06:28 PM)radind Wrote: Big lies told by Clinton.
There were none.
The BIGGEST lie, was the lie told by Trump and his supporters that Hillary made big lies.
No hope for those defending Clinton lies.
I will wait for results after Trump inaugaration.
There were no big Hillary Clinton lies. There's nothing to wait for, except to watch helplessly as Grumpf destroys life on this planet.
Clinton lied multiple times about her email server.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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12-12-2016, 02:45 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2016, 05:05 AM by Eric the Green.)
(12-12-2016, 02:35 PM)radind Wrote: (12-12-2016, 02:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-12-2016, 09:26 AM)radind Wrote: (12-12-2016, 02:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-10-2016, 06:28 PM)radind Wrote: Big lies told by Clinton.
There were none.
The BIGGEST lie, was the lie told by Trump and his supporters that Hillary made big lies.
No hope for those defending Clinton lies.
I will wait for results after Trump inaugaration.
There were no big Hillary Clinton lies. There's nothing to wait for, except to watch helplessly as Grumpf destroys life on this planet.
Clinton lied multiple times about her email server.
No she didn't, and they were not big lies. I posted about this already. Did you read the article? The "confidential" emails that appeared on her server were just congratulations from another government.
The BIG LIES Trump told were so unbelievably horrrendous and numerous, that Trump is nothing but a deadly, monsterous joke perpetrated on the people. He deserves to be in prison already. Russian agent, wildlife destroyer, defender of the wealthy against the people, a racist, a liar, and a bigoted, incompetent fool and Deceiver in Chief. And YOU fell for it. Oh well, at least your state anti-abortion laws are safe for now. I guess that's all that matters to you.
And it's a real tragedy that we get the BIGGEST LIAR AND DESTROYER EVER as our "president" because some fools believed lies about Clinton's email server.
And the only "results" we're getting is that Hillary Rodham Clinton won the election by about 3 million votes, and we are getting a racist president because of an arcane electoral college system set up to protect slave states in the 1700s.
It's time for a closer look. "How do you choose? It's so even! It's so......... even..............(???)"
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Lies and delusions have a nasty tendency to crater. That's why Ponzi schemes fail. That's why cults of personality around hollow people fall apart. That's why the best way in which to convict a criminal is to prove that he has lied about his claims to innocence. That is why dishonest propaganda loses its credibility and so does the propagandist. That is why people make tearful exits from religious cults and causes like neo-Nazism, Ku Kluxism, and Communism -- that they find that what they believed in has only force and deceit behind it.
We have been committed to a radical change in American life, one in which even the very liberties that we have taken for granted, can be destroyed. But who goes down with it? I am more scared of the Trump Revolution taking me down first. Should it do so -- then I can show the courage of someone who believes that death solves all his problems.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(12-12-2016, 02:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-12-2016, 02:35 PM)radind Wrote: Clinton lied multiple times about her email server.
No she didn't, and they were not big lies.
Someone should sig this.
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12-12-2016, 05:05 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2016, 05:05 PM by Eric the Green.)
(12-12-2016, 04:37 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: (12-12-2016, 02:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (12-12-2016, 02:35 PM)radind Wrote: Clinton lied multiple times about her email server.
No she didn't, and they were not big lies.
Someone should sig this.
Why don't you do it? You could cement your status as a fool by doing it. So would anyone else who did (unless of course it is read correctly as me telling the absolute truth)
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Bernie Sanders calls out the BIG LIAR:
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Trump's America will be miserable except for plutocrats who get to live like feudal lords. We will get to have castles and palces, and those will have plenty of jobs in construction.
But they will be paid for with monopoly prices upon ultra-cheap labor.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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