Millennials and GenZ horribly misidentified

[Eric the Green]

(05-27-2019, 10:13 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 03:33 AM)michael_k Wrote:

(05-26-2019, 06:02 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: I'm a first wave Millennial and though I'm defined by the 08 recession I'm not defined by the SJW movements. I never wanted to take part in them and wasn't near the campus movements. I will go down denying how I am somehow involved in it just because of my birth cohort.

You do not have to agree with SJW politics to fit in with the older Millennial (circa 84-94 birth years) demographic. It's more of a matter of being there at the time and seeing the drama of the era unfold around you, even if you do not wish to be directly involved in it. Clearly SJWs were not the only political movement for our generation to be engaged in, we also saw the development of a strong conservative counter-cultural undercurrent which was spearheaded by the likes of Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, Milo Yiannopoulos and Candice Owens among others, and this is a part of our place in political history as well. Like Eric the Green said, not all Boomers supported Reagan, even though his ideas were popular at the time, there will always be people who are apathetic or defiant against movements that persist during their own era, its a matter of natural human diversity of opinion.

What happens to the people who disagree with the movements of their time period? I think right now politics seems very infantilizing. The left seems to act like no one is a rational actor who can make decisions of their own and that everyone thinks, learns, and does things best the same way.

Political correctness can be irritating, as it restricts speech that might offend this and that oppressed group or mildly-oppressed group. But if you are not near the SJW movements and their speech restrictions, why be so concerned about them? Considering the murder of dozens of transgender people, mostly those who are people of color (not "niggers," sorry, but I am obeying the dictum of political correctness here, with no apologies for doing so), and considering the fact pointed out in this article, I think the far greater concern today is what Trump has done to bring out the hatred and the opposition against oppressed and discriminated against and endangered non-white-male-straight folks in America. The opposite concern to yours seems far more justified.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/03/hate...m2PmS3UCo8

Hate crimes have risen 226% in areas where Trump held rallies
A new study suggests that "The Trump Effect" is literally endangering communities and lives.

[AspieMillennial]

(05-27-2019, 03:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 10:13 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 03:33 AM)michael_k Wrote:

(05-26-2019, 06:02 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: I'm a first wave Millennial and though I'm defined by the 08 recession I'm not defined by the SJW movements. I never wanted to take part in them and wasn't near the campus movements. I will go down denying how I am somehow involved in it just because of my birth cohort.

You do not have to agree with SJW politics to fit in with the older Millennial (circa 84-94 birth years) demographic. It's more of a matter of being there at the time and seeing the drama of the era unfold around you, even if you do not wish to be directly involved in it. Clearly SJWs were not the only political movement for our generation to be engaged in, we also saw the development of a strong conservative counter-cultural undercurrent which was spearheaded by the likes of Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, Milo Yiannopoulos and Candice Owens among others, and this is a part of our place in political history as well. Like Eric the Green said, not all Boomers supported Reagan, even though his ideas were popular at the time, there will always be people who are apathetic or defiant against movements that persist during their own era, its a matter of natural human diversity of opinion.

What happens to the people who disagree with the movements of their time period? I think right now politics seems very infantilizing. The left seems to act like no one is a rational actor who can make decisions of their own and that everyone thinks, learns, and does things best the same way.

Political correctness can be irritating, as it restricts speech that might offend this and that oppressed group or mildly-oppressed group. But if you are not near the SJW movements and their speech restrictions, why be so concerned about them? Considering the murder of dozens of transgender people, mostly those who are people of color (not "niggers," sorry, but I am obeying the dictum of political correctness here, with no apologies for doing so), and considering the fact pointed out in this article, I think the far greater concern today is what Trump has done to bring out the hatred and the opposition against oppressed and discriminated against and endangered non-white-male-straight folks in America. The opposite concern to yours seems far more justified.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/03/hate...m2PmS3UCo8

Hate crimes have risen 226% in areas where Trump held rallies
A new study suggests that "The Trump Effect" is literally endangering communities and lives.

I'm afraid of the death of free speech in the US. In places like the UK, people get arrested for what they post online. If you combine this with how people with records are treated in the US, that leaves someone unemployable for life. People get fired, get their lives ruined, and even go to jail because they say things against the SJW mob. It's not all hateful either. Sometimes it's just having a different opinion.

[pbrower2a]

It has been illegal in both Austria and the German Federal Republic since WWII to use Nazi symbols, Nazi slogans, or ideology in public life. Such is a ban on the vilest form of political incorrectness, and it seems to not compromise liberty.

I am satisfied that many people in extreme-Right organizations who have had problems with the law can find sympathetic employers who share the same fascist beliefs. They might not get work in such areas as K-12 public education, bit so what? Public-school teachers are a conformist lot, anyway. Commies could get work, too. I read Masters of Deceit, and I came to recognize that the Commies have a good work ethic... and are surprisingly good businessmen.

Damned right that one gets fired, especially if your work requires that you present a conservative image. Tattoos are bad form in white-collar environments, but if I own a car dealership I most certainly am not going to hire a salesman who has a "White Power" tattoo in plain sight... or "Sieg Heil" tattooed just behind his knuckles (Yes, I have seen that!).

[Eric the Green]

(05-28-2019, 07:37 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 03:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 10:13 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 03:33 AM)michael_k Wrote:

(05-26-2019, 06:02 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: I'm a first wave Millennial and though I'm defined by the 08 recession I'm not defined by the SJW movements. I never wanted to take part in them and wasn't near the campus movements. I will go down denying how I am somehow involved in it just because of my birth cohort.

You do not have to agree with SJW politics to fit in with the older Millennial (circa 84-94 birth years) demographic. It's more of a matter of being there at the time and seeing the drama of the era unfold around you, even if you do not wish to be directly involved in it. Clearly SJWs were not the only political movement for our generation to be engaged in, we also saw the development of a strong conservative counter-cultural undercurrent which was spearheaded by the likes of Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, Milo Yiannopoulos and Candice Owens among others, and this is a part of our place in political history as well. Like Eric the Green said, not all Boomers supported Reagan, even though his ideas were popular at the time, there will always be people who are apathetic or defiant against movements that persist during their own era, its a matter of natural human diversity of opinion.

What happens to the people who disagree with the movements of their time period? I think right now politics seems very infantilizing. The left seems to act like no one is a rational actor who can make decisions of their own and that everyone thinks, learns, and does things best the same way.

Political correctness can be irritating, as it restricts speech that might offend this and that oppressed group or mildly-oppressed group. But if you are not near the SJW movements and their speech restrictions, why be so concerned about them? Considering the murder of dozens of transgender people, mostly those who are people of color (not "niggers," sorry, but I am obeying the dictum of political correctness here, with no apologies for doing so), and considering the fact pointed out in this article, I think the far greater concern today is what Trump has done to bring out the hatred and the opposition against oppressed and discriminated against and endangered non-white-male-straight folks in America. The opposite concern to yours seems far more justified.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/03/hate...m2PmS3UCo8

Hate crimes have risen 226% in areas where Trump held rallies
A new study suggests that "The Trump Effect" is literally endangering communities and lives.

I'm afraid of the death of free speech in the US. In places like the UK, people get arrested for what they post online. If you combine this with how people with records are treated in the US, that leaves someone unemployable for life. People get fired, get their lives ruined, and even go to jail because they say things against the SJW mob. It's not all hateful either. Sometimes it's just having a different opinion.

But, but........; the SJW crowd is not in power. The opponents of SJW are in power.

[NobodyImportant]

(05-22-2019, 04:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If you say idealism doesn't work, and that heroes can't be blindly idealistic, doesn't that imply that Gen Y/millennials CAN be heroes, in your eyes? If S&H dating of generations and archetypes are correct, which I think they are, then Gen Z are adaptives, and they in their youth are get along to go along types, not heroes. That's why they are called adaptive.

First of all the TITLE of this thread is that the ranges have been ridiculously misidentified and the ones identified in the theory have no basis at all in reality as they are completely different.
If you still count GenZ to GenY just to make your theory work then that is really dumb. I'd rather have an exception to the rule than to awkwardly try and change things people agree on.
Anyway: Gen Y are to a large part total idealists and demagogue ideologues. AOC is the perfect example for this. The world doesn't need PROPHETS, because that would imply subscribing to the religion that these people are pushing. And the majority of people does NOT do that no matter how you claim they do, otherwise she wouldn't have been laughed out of the senate, because there would have been at least ONE person there whose constituents are like her. They have absolutely got no right to act as the chosen ones that everyone should just accept as telling universal truths that people just HAVE to accept because that's how things are supposed to be. The term prophet was precisely right in this regard.
Gen Z - the sociological cohort - are actually the ones that can make things work. Their major thing from what the polls say seems to be that they are more reality bound. They address things as they are. The primary thing they care about is what can be done, not how things should ideally be. Gen Y are dreamers and Gen Z seem to be doers. This is indicated by their fiscal conservativism, their stricter rule adherence, their slightly more cynical culture, their complete openness towards some ideas considered revolutionary but actually sensible, and their lack of partisanship, compared to Gen Y at the same age.
These are necessities to actually make changes.

Also just look at how much the conservatives in here are decrying my posts. I'm a centrist. And we practically ceased to exist, which is part of a crisis, but which also makes a solution impossible if otherwise the both sides are about equally split. Which they absolutely are.

[NobodyImportant]

(05-22-2019, 05:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: True, but progress isn't mandated.  Bad ideas lead to bad results.  No one gets to claim that a failure is a great accomplishment just because they won.

Except when they inevitably always do.

(05-22-2019, 06:08 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: In the broadest sense of what social institutions are they are in fact institutions. People work in businesses, buy their goods from businesses, an well do just about everything else with businesses where the government hasn't carved for itself a monopoly. Because an institution does not fit your preconceived notion of what an instituion is or should be does not mean it is not in fact an institution.

This is laughable because if you take a look at what actually new sort of companies millennials started it's mostly super progressive bay area bullshit in the us, and copies of that all over the world. Not something that is an institution and thus a backbone of a country.

(05-22-2019, 06:08 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: If you've not figured it out by now he's an idiot and is best made fun of or ignored.

It's funny how he would say the literal exact same thing about you.

Quote:The NeoCon estblishment are failed Trotskites actually, and thus leftists. The Paleo-con and Libertarian right is not interested in outrage culture.

This sounds like some 9/11 truther type of crazytalk from the perspective of someone who has lived in ex-communist countries.
They are right wing just as much as the others, but you don't want to accept it because of the absolutely retarded tribalism that is ruining politics. Your in-group has to be exclusively perfect, therefore whoever isn't totally perfect just has to be "not a real XYZ".

Quote:I sneer at the likes of AOC because she is a tempest in a teapot.

Yes, i was talking about millennials not you. Sneering at AOC is okay, because she was the one trying to propose a new idea that was retarded, so she should be humble.
*Her* and her supporters sneering at others, just as much as libertarians and co sneering at others is not okay, because if you present ideas you have to first convince others that they are actually good, and reality check your ideas and be ready to accept criticism and see that your ideas might not always be good.

This is something that absolutely has to happen for society to be able to get out of the current crisis, and there are not enough people abiding by it. Look at what Eric said seriously, he described everything perfectly.

Eric Wrote:"AOC is a PROPHET"

As if it was their god given right and duty to tell everyone else what to do and anyone not doing exactly as they say are just heretics.
The entire millennial cohort is very much working from the point of "this is how things are SUPPOSED TO BE, you are SUPPOSED TO LISTEN TO ME AND AGREE WITH ME", sneering at anyone who disagrees.
This is what prevents them from being an actual force of change.

They are the prime proponents of this culture, but you and eric wholeheartedly buy into it as well and it's a goddamn shame.
You sneer at climate change even though it's a scientific fact, he sneers at mass migration problems even though they are statistical facts.

As long as neither of you admit that the other one might have a right to actually be concerned about the issues, as long as people continue this absurd trend of making the ISSUES instead of the SOLUTIONS partisan, there will be absolutely no way to actually change something about society. And this i think, i hope, is what GenZ are doing differently.

Quote:If you're not from America then tell me where the media you consume from America is derived? From New York, LA and San Franshitsco. There is a reason that people like Eric fear "Fly Over Country", which is where the Real Americans live. America is more of a continent in and of itself than a single country-a la Europe.

I was talking about the fact that i know it's not just the coastal areas, because i see the exact same thing everywhere in the world not just in america. This is a generational not a locational phenomenon.
Also i consume youtube too and don't watch CNN, FOX or co.

Quote:Having political connections with people in the Millienial generation in other countries just as many support Brexit. One shouldn't take BBC propaganda at face value just like they shouldn't take CNN propaganda at face value.

This is factually untrue. There are independent statistics about who supported brexit and why. Millennials as a generation by far support causes like the remain camp, AOC, social justice, and causes on the other side of the political spectrum with the same lack of justification too. Because they had a profound sense of "it's how it's supposed to be" installed in them.
I have completely given up on GenY unless they suddenly mature and change. If you have not then you are in deeper denial than the grand canyon.

Quote: increasing nationalism (which is a very good thing).

Again, it's a good thing in *THEORY* but if it doesn't stop as soon as the EU is broken up it will lead to the death of europe, because the european economies CANNOT STAND on their own facing china and an increasingly hostile US.

This is why i support the Intermarium project, which contrary to the EU is something actually done by the elected governments for the benefit of the people not by unelected officials for the benefit of corporations - the way the EU started and continues to be to this day.

[NobodyImportant]

(05-24-2019, 01:06 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: I'm Millennial and a free speech absolutist. Why is free speech absolutism bad? I'm this way because I'm tired of people being offended by everything and resent my freedom being taken away just because people's fee fees say so.

(05-26-2019, 03:20 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: That said, the solution to bad speech is more speech, speech deeper in thought and usually with more complex reasoning. At the extreme, the coarse hatred of the Jew-baiting of Julius Streicher and the crass stereotypes in Der ewige Jude succeeded in Nazi Germany only because nobody -- especially the Jews - got the right to contest it.

This is exactly what i meant. The solution to speech is not more speech.
The problem isn't that speech is hurting anyone's fee-fees the problem is that to think that 'the solution to speech having negative effects is more speech' is "gun violence can be solved by more guns" "global warming can be solved by axing our modern society completely" level delusional.

"Speech is just words".
This is what people on the right of the political spectrum continue to just repeat ad nauseam.

"Just words" are more powerful than actions. If you "punch a nazi in the face" he's gonna be angry and be able to rile up support against you. If you agree with this you *know* that words at times are better than actions.

Similarly if you have ever seen an ad, you know why words have an incomprehensibly vast effect.
If "just words" had no effect then advertisement wouldn't frikkin exist.
The term "all PR is good PR" wouldn't exist.
People and pundits wouldn't be able to sway a third of the populace to their side just by repeating the same insane crap over and over again. (Which they do. A third of the populace cannot seem to form consistent opinions on political things and will just repeat what they've seen the most.)

Simply seeing something repeated plays into cognitive ease, no matter if you agree with it or not. This is a well studied scientific fact.
It's one of the most powerful cognitive phenomena affecting the human brain.
In this way words are literally without hyperbole AN ACTUAL DIRECT REMOTE CONTROL TO PEOPLE'S BRAINS.
People can be made to buy, vote, kill, or die with "just words".
At least a vast swath of the population can.

So saying that "it's just words" is the same level of dangerously lunatic thinking as saying "a border is just a line in the sand", or "vaccines are just some big pharma product"

[NobodyImportant]

(05-26-2019, 04:27 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Millennial Generation has gotten the rawest deal that any generation has ever gotten

I didn't disagree with that. But if people traumatized to the point of lunacy will take the wheel then nothing good will actually come out of it except for the powers that be just laughing at useful idiots who can be swayed to do their bidding.

Quote:*summary of crash*

A very neat and quaint summary that i fully agree with, but what is your point?
I completely understand that the system in place is corrupt but millennials didn't do *shit* to fix it.
They took bernie - the only non establishment candidate on the side more supported by them - being fucked over lying down, and vent and voted for the absolute epitome of super pac, wallstreet, public-and-private-position-on-policy, establishment politics herself en masse.
Trump is a corporatist, but he at least has done more for small businesses and working class people in the US than others, if you look at the employment numbers. Even though he - of course - backtracked on most of his reformist ideas. He also restarted the space program which, under Obama, was relegated to just barely still existing. This is a thing that is always a massive benefit to the entire society and economy.
In fact the "we are going back to the moon" thing from nasa is one of the very few things that makes me believe we might actually have a glimmer of hope and be starting to stabilize the crisis.
To portray him as a "believer in pure plutocracy" when he had the least amount of superpac fundint of any candidate in the recent past is ridiculous.

Quote:The GOP has cast all questions of economic equity to the Democrats while ensuring a 52-48 split of power, with the 52% acting as a cadre party. The Chinese Communist Party may have largely abandoned Marxism-Leninism, including Maoism, but it has never abandoned dictatorship. The Chinese political system is basically a permanent 65-35 split in representation, and the majority rules. In America the GOP would be satisfied with a permanent 55-45 split of power, especially if some orthodox believer in pure plutocracy is the President. Trump is the vehicle for winning over people who see educated people as the exploiters and oppressors as well as unforgivable rakes damned to Hell for their homosexuality, abortions for fun, mockery of televangelists, and rejection of young-earth creationism.  

Again, none of this is a response to what i said.
The *people* think this way and wholeheartedly buy into this way of thinking too. Millennials more than anyone, in fact they CHAMPION this.
If you look around you now, not during obama, the GOP and their media seems far far less hateful towards democrats than democrats towards republicans. You remember the calls for that kids life to be ruined because he smirked in the wrong sort of hat.
You remember big names in journalism and media, and the media itself calling for this and helping with this, while others called for mass murder of the entire school? You remember CNN actively blackmailing someone over a meme? Not even regular people in Alabama heartland are calling for such shit with the democrats. The only people that do are a tiny and fringe minority. Not the faces of their political side.

Quote:Milo went too far.

I really don't see how he did, and the fact that you think that he did implies to me that you are not completely free from the grasp of outrage culture either.

Quote:The Hard Right is as tied to an outrage culture as the Hard Left ever was. Even so I see a big problem for America: that there is now no real home for genuine conservatives who believe in thrift, small-scale enterprise, education, legal precedent, and a nexus between doing right and doing well.

Yes that's exactly what i said.

Quote:We are not yet through sorting the political mess that is the contemporary Crisis. The Hard Right is as nasty as ever, and it still has great power.

Yes, and i precisely said that GenY will not be the ones to sort through it, so we will not be through it any time soon.
GenY lack the anchors to reality that would be required to actually deal with things, and they wholeheartedly buy into the partisanly split population/partisanly split issues mindset that is preventing anything from changing. GenZ do not seem to do so with their cynicism and lack of support for traditional political parties.

Quote:The urban-rural split in American politics, between people who live mostly on near-starvation pay and people who get good pay but have responsibilities to enrich the Master Class above all else, is much of the divide. Both have good cause to hate the current Establishment, but they are still in hostile camps. The Master Class wins so long as such is so.

Yes, but this had nothing to do with what i said. My point was that millies are similar all over not just on the coasts.
And as long as they remain wholly invested into the "my issues/your issues" dichotomy they are not going to do anything of the sort of resolving the crisis.

Quote:Civic generations believe in institutions as solutions.

Eeeeh that's reaching.
The sovereignty of a nation can be seen as strengthening british institutions, instead of having some nebulous concept of some in europe.

Quote:The Right has the same capacity to offer bad ideas that sound good in theory or good so long as one ignores the consequences to most people. Tara (Gone with the Wind) was a great place to live -- so long as one was not a slave. Romanticism about the past is not so good as the reality of the past. (I would now be satisfied with a sustainable future looking much like the 1950s, but without the male heterosexist chauvinism, polio, Southern segregationism, the Commie menace, environmental destruction, and Blood Alley roads. I see the Hard Right and I see the nasty social order of the Planet Mongo, obviously modeled after the totalitarian orders of the time, in Flash Gordon serials of the 1930s.

Yes, i said that just at the end of the paragraph you quoted.

Quote:Assuming that you are British, I recognize a difference between America and Europe. Western Europe was reorganized to replace nationalism (the source of fascism) with a welfare state in an expanded market. America has devolved into a country in which the landlords, loan-sharks, and lobbyists control things. We thought fascism completely un-American except for the ludicrous people who prance around in ghostly robes and burn crosses before going on night rides -- and thus impossible here. Well, It Has Happened Here, and we all know who the real-life Berzelius Windrip is!

That is fucking ridiculous. If you buy into the whole "orange man bad" ideology i don't know what i can tell you. You have literally zero basis for that argument.

Also i'm not british i'm european. Conceived in one country, born in another, raised in yet another, and most friends in yet another, relatives in yet another. Friends with MEPs, educated in two different countries, soon to be three, soon working in a fourth. I am fluent in four languages and learning more. I have dealt with questions and problems of the european union in school and in real life, and i've seen a shitload of enviornments, people and ways of dealing with things.
All the while i'm mostly interacting with america and americans and american politics, because that's what dominates the internet. And the world.

With all this in mind i can confidently say that while there might be differences, the basic problems are roughly the same in both places:
a) A left that has betrayed the working class in favor of corporate and special interest groups thus becoming exactly like the corporate right, save for the flavoring of their agendas.
b) The same left having also, and in support of this fully bought into the tribalistic social justice nonsense that is so exquisitely destroying human civilization.
c) The normal right having been brought into this in some places as well, but more importantly wholeheartedly and unquestionningly supporting the special interest groups.
d) The newer right being extremely reactionary, and doing just 'pushback politics' and being the other side of the tribalistic social justice bullshit.
e) All of this because both sides consistently and wholeheartedly buy into the idea that the ideas of the other side aren't even legitimate, so the different sides have ownership of the PROBLEMS and not the SOLUTIONS to the problems.
f) Which in turn ensures that no side can actually command any strong enough support to really oust the plutocratic bullshit that is destroying society.

[NobodyImportant]

(05-26-2019, 07:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: *opera and other stuff*

I just wanted to note here that before world war 1 all art and the people in general were really realy longing for a war. Look at paintings from the time. They practically idolized the breaking up of human civilization. This is slightly similar now with all the post apocalypse movies, and all the movies featuring massive death tollls and destruction (the culmination of which could be the thanos snap death of half of the entire universe) but definitely not to the same degree as back then.
Everyone was longing for destruction back then. Look at any art not just that ballet.

As such expressions of awfulness might be signs and a contributing factor to a society spiralling out of control.

[NobodyImportant]

(05-27-2019, 03:33 AM)michael_k Wrote: we also saw the development of a strong conservative counter-cultural undercurrent

Sorry to interject i just wanted to note that they too fall victims to the same sort of nonsense the lefty millies fall victim to.
Prophetic figures, unquestionning belief in some things, the political polarization of issues, and a complete refusal to take criticicm.

Apart from the free speech absolutism, the "if i had a dollar for every gender there was i'd have two dollars" thing is one of the most obnoxious ones, because every single figure on the right of the spectrum subscribes to this, for basically no reason other than 'that is what is right', with very little arguments even possible to support it, and with culture and society clearly not agreeing with them, the future trends clearly being opposed to them(TWO THIRDS of GenZ believing in more than two genders), all this stranding them on an ideological deserted island.

Millennials as a generation have problems.

And no, 

Quote:AspieMillennial

you being a millennial doesn't mean you do everything like they do, but we have a prospensity of buying into the same sort of thinking.
As was indicated by your free speech stance.

[NobodyImportant]

(05-27-2019, 10:13 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: What happens to the people who disagree with the movements of their time period? I think right now politics seems very infantilizing.

This is because the millennial left has turned to being infantile as a response to the accelerating and super harsh growing up the world is subjecting people to.
Most people do not feel ready for an adult life when they should be. Gen X will literally never understand this, they seem to not comprehend or be able to imagine the issue.
But this is what is happening. The absolute largest part of the generation feels like schoolkids thrown into a board meeting. They do their best, but they don't understand half of it, because no one prepared them for all this, it's all very tiring, a lot of effort, people continue to hurt them left and right, and when they have an idea they think is good or point out something ridiculous in what is being done, they are laughed at.
It's absolutely no wonder they turn to infantilizing coddling policies, and weird cults like social justice.

(05-27-2019, 03:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Political correctness can be irritating, as it restricts speech that might offend this and that oppressed group or mildly-oppressed group. But if you are not near the SJW movements and their speech restrictions, why be so concerned about them? Considering the murder of dozens of transgender people, mostly those who are people of color (not "niggers," sorry, but I am obeying the dictum of political correctness here, with no apologies for doing so),

a) He's concerned because the SJWs don't apply those restrictions to themselves but try to enforce them ON EVERYONE. Make a joke about rape? Don't you know you can't joke about those things? Have your career ended. Make an joke about nazis, that has literally been done by historical nazi resistance fighters? Get fucking convicted in a court for causing serious offense. Say something offensive online and be not of the politically correct ideology? Get all your social media shut down, payment providers blocked, or bank accounts frozen.
Yeah really, why would he be concerned.
b) No one wants to call them niggers, but you using the term "people of color" just proves you buy into the whole pc nonsense. Their skin in black. What is wrong with calling them black/brown people, just like you call white people WHITE PEOPLE.
What the actualy fucking shit does "peope of color" even mean? How do they even have anything to do with color, they're not rainbow people, they're just darker skinned. What the hell does of color even stand for? "Of the color by the color for the color"? People of color like "The people of Atlantis"? OF implies that the thing before it is somehow a subject OF the thing after it. OF COLOR is not a fucking linguistically correct thing to say, but it's what people decided hurt their feefees least so that's what everyone says now.

Eric the Green Wrote:The opponents of SJWs are in power.

Are they really.... The congress is filled with democrats, the media apart from FAUX news is wholeheartedly lapping it up, and actual legislation will have to be introduced to stop colleges and oh i don't know EVERY SINGLE TECH CORPORATION CONTROLLING THE WORLD from going insane with SJW nonsense.
And that's just america.

(05-28-2019, 12:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It has been illegal in both Austria and the German Federal Republic since WWII to use Nazi symbols, Nazi slogans, or ideology in public life. Such is a ban on the vilest form of political incorrectness, and it seems to not compromise liberty.

-Yeah but curiously enough the red star and hammer and sickle are not banned...despite communism having killed one hundred million people compared the 20 million of nazism. Hmmm it's almost as if this was a partisan thing, because the left naturaly gained power and support in western europe after a regime from the right turned out to be fucking awful.
-Also this is not a ban on politically incorrect speech. Politically incorrect means that it is correct, but it is not what the current politics likes, therefore you can't say it's really incorrect, but it is *politically* incorrect. A symbol of an evil organization is not otherwise correct, nor is it technically politically incorrect, as it is not a statement of a fact. It is just extremely disturbing. And just like you can't walk around showing images of people being killed or demands that people be killed you can't walk around with images of organizations that killed people. It is not about political correctness. It is therefore not comparable at all to bans on politically incorrect things.

[michael_k]

Read through some of the stuff posted by NobodyImportant, but my confusion is, aren't Civic Generations meant to be at least somewhat one-minded and idealistic? Look back to the 20th Century, and we find Hitler Youth G.I.s and the 1930s Workers' Movements, they were one-minded and 'idealist' in their own ways just like the contemporary Far-Left and Far-Right are. If you look at Fascism and the way Socialism played out back then also, there wasn't a lot of freedom of thought involved, it was very much 'my way or the highway', with the highway being the gulag or the gas chamber.

Go back another turning and look at the United States and you have Abolitionist radicals pushing to abolish slavery, which was a staple of Southern economics at that time, and many before that would have considered it a farce for the system to work any other way. A lot of the ideas Gen Y / the Millennials come up with are considered farcical in their non-diluted sense, such as the original Green New Deal plan, but the reasoning behind it is similar to the revolutionary concepts of previous Fourth Turnings, there contains a hope of creating a better, more humanitarian system through radical change.

If you want freedom of thought and liberty, maybe Idealist Generations such as the Boomers are more your style, I feel like Civics are the polar opposite of this, we tend to be absolutist and use that as a vehicle to solve malingering issues that the other Generational Archetypes wouldn't have the capacity to fix. Unfortunately, without everyone being on the same page, or worse, split evenly between two pages, this absolutism can create enough friction to spark warfare, which is likely why the conclusions of many Fourth Turnings tend go off with a literal bang.

Oh and about Gen Z also, are you talking about the people born around 1995-2004? Because if you think the dreamer spirit has died with those people and that they've all gone back to humble negotiations and mundane practicality on political issues, I think you should remember the Parkland Movement and Greta Thunberg's mission to save the planet. Some of those young people have their hopes set so high it is even giving Gen Y pause, and they are not pulling any punches. Do you see the likes of David Hogg wanting to find a reasonable middle ground with the NRA? No way, and 16 year old Greta Thunberg won't even let her mother fly on airplanes from what I've heard. If anything, they are more absolutist then Gen Y, and we haven't even seen them enter politics yet alongside folks like AOC.

[AspieMillennial]

I have a my way or the highway attitude because I'm tired of dealing with totalitarians on the left and right. They don't have empathy or listen to reason so the only way to shut down their stupidity is by standing firm and never compromising. To compromise to them means to lose to them.

[pbrower2a]

The best way to deal with totalitarians either of the Left or Right is to make them irrelevant.

Communists typically take over in countries with no democratic heritage and a grossly unrepresentative form of government (absolute monarchy, military junta, colonial bosses, feudal elite) that shows no concern for the welfare of the people, typically in the early stage of industrialization in a country that has concentrated its manufacturing base (and its unhappy proletariat) in a few cities -- and puts an inordinate amount of its economic emphasis on heavy industry, resource extraction, or export-based agriculture. In such countries the economy works solely for elites, efforts to improve living conditions are futile, and the government typically suppresses moderate reformers while creating openings for small, conspiratorial elites that fit the Commie pattern. Practically all countries that have not done so will go through the stage of early industrialization -- but they can develop democracy early, and they can rely upon cottage industries that produce stuff that workers and peasants need such as shoes and crockery.

Fascists usually take over in countries just getting out or the early stage of industrial development in which workers start challenging the low pay and bad working conditions -- but employers want to keep labor costs low, so they turn to fascists. Big business exploits the resentments of the lower-middle class, people with 'solid' grade-school education that gets people low-paying white-collar jobs that do not gain in income as do blue-collar jobs; fascists exploit this sentiment. Most fascist causes exploit ethnic and religious bigotry as well as class resentments -- and hurt feelings of national pride. It's up to political leaders to show some moral compass that fascists invariably lack, promoting human brotherhood, and fostering rational thought.

You are right that the totalitarians either lack empathy (more precisely, they show it selectively)... and conceding anything to them is the equivalent of feeding your friends to the crocodile so that you will be the last eaten. Reject salami tactics that cut off one group after another group of helpless people.

[AspieMillennial]

(05-31-2019, 04:07 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(05-31-2019, 02:03 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote: I have a my way or the highway attitude because I'm tired of dealing with totalitarians on the left and right. They don't have empathy or listen to reason so the only way to shut down their stupidity is by standing firm and never compromising. To compromise to them means to lose to them.

They also have a my way or the highway attitude. The difference is the manipulation to force others to follow their way.

My point is sometimes it's warranted because it works. There are some people you can't negotiate with. You have to play hardball.

[Hintergrund]

(05-28-2019, 07:05 PM)NobodyImportant Wrote: This is because the millennial left has turned to being infantile as a response to the accelerating and super harsh growing up the world is subjecting people to.
Most people do not feel ready for an adult life when they should be. Gen X will literally never understand this, they seem to not comprehend or be able to imagine the issue.

Not all of us... but I noticed after college too that there were many things about the world neither parents nor school/college nor media prepared us for.

(05-29-2019, 08:25 AM)michael_k Wrote: Because if you think the dreamer spirit has died with those people and that they've all gone back to humble negotiations and mundane practicality on political issues, I think you should remember the Parkland Movement and Greta Thunberg's mission to save the planet. Some of those young people have their hopes set so high it is even giving Gen Y pause, and they are not pulling any punches.

Yeah, Greta is unusual for an Artist, which she should be... she comes along a bit like the early Lisa Simpson, as described in 4th Turning: A poster child of the Millennials.

In Europe, I haven't seen many Millies like S&H describe them. One millennial I knew better became a drug dealer. OK, he might have been an exception.

[Anthony '58]

Have even the slightest memory of 9/11 = Millennial

Don't have said memory = Gen Z - or as I call them, based on the behavior of David Hogg, Greta Thunberg, etc., the Activist Generation; and when the Second Civil War breaks out, within six months after the 2020 election, they will inherit the Idealist mantle, with the Millennials being demoted from Civic to Adaptive, a la the Progressives.

[Kinser79]

(11-09-2019, 01:30 PM)Anthony Wrote: Have even the slightest memory of 9/11 = Millennial

Don't have said memory = Gen Z - or as I call them, based on the behavior of David Hogg, Greta Thunberg, etc., the Activist Generation; and when the Second Civil War breaks out, within six months after the 2020 election, they will inherit the Idealist mantle, with the Millennials being demoted from Civic to Adaptive, a la the Progressives.

I would love to see the Cold Civil War get hot but I highly doubt it will be six months after the 2020 election which will be a landslide victory for Donald J. Trump.  The Blues are concentrated into tiny areas, are largely unarmed and utterly dependent on the rest of Real and Red America.  If it comes to a shooting match such a Civil War would be very short indeed.

Do you have any sources for indications that this interpretation is inaccurate?  And if so please share with the rest of the class.

[David Horn]

(11-13-2019, 07:46 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(11-09-2019, 01:30 PM)Anthony Wrote: Have even the slightest memory of 9/11 = Millennial

Don't have said memory = Gen Z - or as I call them, based on the behavior of David Hogg, Greta Thunberg, etc., the Activist Generation; and when the Second Civil War breaks out, within six months after the 2020 election, they will inherit the Idealist mantle, with the Millennials being demoted from Civic to Adaptive, a la the Progressives.

I would love to see the Cold Civil War get hot but I highly doubt it will be six months after the 2020 election which will be a landslide victory for Donald J. Trump.  The Blues are concentrated into tiny areas, are largely unarmed and utterly dependent on the rest of Real and Red America.  If it comes to a shooting match such a Civil War would be very short indeed.

Do you have any sources for indications that this interpretation is inaccurate?  And if so please share with the rest of the class.

It's good to have a dream.  

[Ghost]

(05-03-2019, 11:00 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(05-03-2019, 10:53 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote: I agree with Eric here. 9/11 was not *that* important. Obviously it was a nightmare for people who died and for their families. It was a shock for everyone. But I remember a New Yorker (my cousin's friend) saying in retrospect it was less devastating than hurricane Sandy in 2012. The financial recession of 2008 was definitely more important for people's daily lives. As for the Internet, there is colossal difference between early and late 2000s. I was born in '86, so I remember the websites of 2001. When MySpace went mainstream in 2006, it made a huge difference.

Coming of age doesn't really mean 18, in the modern context extended adolescence is the norm, so people are more likely to start living an adult life around the age of 22. Using age 22 as a proxy for coming of age works well:
1968 for boomers
1986 for Xers
2006 for millennials
2025 for new Artists born in 2003

9/11 was far more impactful than Hurricane Sandy. 9/11 is when the mentality started to shift towards "Give up your freedoms in the name of society and security. Authority good." The war in Iraq resulting from this also resulted in the deficit that caused the 2008 crash. It's all related. Your coming of age is when your innocence is shattered. For Boomers, it was 1963 when JFK got assassinated. For Millennials it was 2001 or 2008. 2006 was not very significant at all IMO.

Cases can be made for 2007, considering that was when the iPhone came out, when LCD TVs outsold cathode ray tube TVs, and when the Recession started. But I really can't see how 2006 is significant.

I think that two things that we know for sure are that the key Boomer year was 1968 and that the key Gen X year was 1989. However, the key Millennial year is somewhat up for debate because of how there could be many candidates for it (with good reasons). I might take a stab and say 2011 because that was when Osama bin Laden got killed, when Occupy Wall Street (a big Millennial event) occurred, and when the hipster culture started to become more mainstream. Please correct me if I am wrong.