The Coronavirus

[Eric the Green]

(05-02-2020, 10:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 04:38 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 04:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Hint: If the liberals keep playing games with numbers, people's lives and lively hoods, playing games with dates/deadlines and moving goal lines this is going end way worse and way more costly than World War II and financially wipe out every social program that followed in the process. I'm not concerned about America because America was built to succeed and survive.

Did the high of the 1950s much resemble the Gilded Age?  Does the crisis bring significant transformation?  Do you really think we will return to what we once were?

You should really read for comprehension the works of Strauss and Howe.

I get the jest of theory. I'm not much of a book reader these days. So, I'll have to pass on reading up and getting more familiar with the works of Strauss and Howe at this point. To be honest, the anomaly that skewed the generations pretty killed the credibility of S&H theory in my opinion. The 1950's had little to no resemblance of the gilded age. The world had changed/advanced significantly. My grandmother's and grandfather's were born when the use of horses and buggies and heavy manual labor to do most everything was still common.

I don't believe that we will return to the Gilded Age. We are far to advanced to return to the Gilded Age. We might have to part ways with  some blue  states who seem more likely to be heading that direction anyway but that's their problem. I'd say the combination of World War I, The Great Depression and World II significantly transformed most of  Europe. So, I'd say that's what it would take to significantly transform the US at this point. I'm not sure what the last question pertains to? COVID19? Yes, I believe that we will eventually get back to the way we were before the COVID19 crisis.

That's why some of us here have offered revisions of the anomaly. It struck me immediately as an attempt to lump Lincoln in with the prophet generation archetype. However, Mike Alexander sticks with the dates because he says their biological research was solid.

The 1950s had quite a few similarities to the gilded age, as S&H defined it (and I agree with their dates). The Age of Hate mirrored McCarthyism, and the end of Reconstruction matched the end of reform under Eisenhower. Progress toward human rights and equality pretty much ended in both eras, and as the name suggests, the Gilded Age matched the materialism of the "progress is our most important product" era of the 1950s and early 60s. Much building and industrial growth occurred in both eras. Prosperity grew in the Gilded Age, as in the American Decade, but the bourgeois mentality predominated over the slowly-growing labor activism and socialist thought, much as civil rights controversy and economic inequality was beginning to stir activism in the 1950s, but not getting too far yet.

The period of rapid invention and discovery that ended the horse and buggy era and led to the conveniences of the 1950s and today actually happened in the 2T, just as the most recent 2T created our computerized world. That's when the most discoveries are made, not during the the 1T. Some early significant inventions that changed the world began with Bell and Edison in 1876, but the old era had not ended yet. The period we physically live in is largely the child of the 1886 to 1908 period, when also the planetary cycles and the research of many historians indicated that a 500-year cycle of civilization had ended and a new one had begun. 

That's also the indicator of the age of world wars and great depression that immediately followed 1908 as well, which you mentioned as transforming Europe. Historians often agree that the 500-year Renaissance/Baroque/Enlightenment Era of European continental discoveries, colonies and imperialism ended with the imperialist battles between the powers in the 1890s and 1900s followed by the great wars. We are in a new era now, which was signaled by the League of Nations founding. We are globalizing, irrevocably.

We will return to the Gilded Age in an archetypal sense in 2029. What you don't see Mr. Classic Xer, with your rather parochial and provincial Republican style of thought, is archetypal similarity and cyclic rhythm. Of course one age is not just like another, and in many periods of history there is some progress going on. 

But before we get back to an age of relative normality, we have much to transform in our 4T, however less drastic for the world it may be than what happened in the previous 3T and 4T. COVID-19 is part of it, and it has resulted from the chief crisis of our time, our encroachment on and destruction of Nature. That calamity and its consequences won't end in 2029, but we will be required to change course or suffer irremediable damage to our country and our world. And to accomplish this new direction, we have to get rid of the Trumpists who like nothing better than to bulldoze everything in sight. And that will take a crisis event to accomplish.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-03-2020, 06:00 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-03-2020, 02:00 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: I still think a real war is more likely.  With both Presidential candidates vying for who can be more xenophobic about China, we don't seem to be heading for a more peaceful world.

I am not worried about a war with China.  I don’t think even Trump is stupid enough to start a land war in Asia.  He is about himself, and not about allies.  He has disengaged from everything.

As we are not apt to start a land war in Asia, who would be eager to start a sea war with the United States?  China recently aborted it’s fifth and sixth carrier, likely as they have been unable to launch an aircraft from water with nearly the fuel and payload of the Americans.  If you want to challenge the US to a carrier duel in the Pacific you need to hit hard at range.  China has given up on using carriers for that.

But there is one area were the two could easily find common cause, could cooperate fully.  Each government needs a foreign power to yap at to draw their own press away from their own mistakes with COVID 19.  A good deal of indignant sound and fury seems possible.  I wouldn’t worry about it.  Trump is in the eyes of most foreign leaders a harmless fool, so nothing is apt to escalate except the noise level.

I wish he were far enough away to be harmless to Americans.

We could probably start a war within China or back independence for Hong Kong or convince the G7 to vote to ix nay China or do all of them. China probably isn't going to nuke itself.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-03-2020, 09:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: That's why some of us here have offered revisions of the anomaly. It struck me immediately as an attempt to lump Lincoln in with the prophet generation archetype. However, Mike Alexander sticks with the dates because he says their biological research was solid.

The 1950s had quite a few similarities to the gilded age, as S&H defined it (and I agree with their dates). The Age of Hate mirrored McCarthyism, and the end of Reconstruction matched the end of reform under Eisenhower. Progress toward human rights and equality pretty much ended in both eras, and as the name suggests, the Gilded Age matched the materialism of the "progress is our most important product" era of the 1950s and early 60s. Much building and industrial growth occurred in both eras. Prosperity grew in the Gilded Age, as in the American Decade, but the bourgeois mentality predominated over the slowly-growing labor activism and socialist thought, much as civil rights controversy and economic inequality was beginning to stir activism in the 1950s, but not getting too far yet.

The period of rapid invention and discovery that ended the horse and buggy era and led to the conveniences of the 1950s and today actually happened in the 2T, just as the most recent 2T created our computerized world. That's when the most discoveries are made, not during the the 1T. Some early significant inventions that changed the world began with Bell and Edison in 1876, but the old era had not ended yet. The period we physically live in is largely the child of the 1886 to 1908 period, when also the planetary cycles and the research of many historians indicated that a 500-year cycle of civilization had ended and a new one had begun. 

That's also the indicator of the age of world wars and great depression that immediately followed 1908 as well, which you mentioned as transforming Europe. Historians often agree that the 500-year Renaissance/Baroque/Enlightenment Era of European continental discoveries, colonies and imperialism ended with the imperialist battles between the powers in the 1890s and 1900s followed by the great wars. We are in a new era now, which was signaled by the League of Nations founding. We are globalizing, irrevocably.

We will return to the Gilded Age in an archetypal sense in 2029. What you don't see Mr. Classic Xer, with your rather parochial and provincial Republican style of thought, is archetypal similarity and cyclic rhythm. Of course one age is not just like another, and in many periods of history there is some progress going on. 

But before we get back to an age of relative normality, we have much to transform in our 4T, however less drastic for the world it may be than what happened in the previous 3T and 4T. COVID-19 is part of it, and it has resulted from the chief crisis of our time, our encroachment on and destruction of Nature. That calamity and its consequences won't end in 2029, but we will be required to change course or suffer irremediable damage to our country and our world. And to accomplish this new direction, we have to get rid of the Trumpists who like nothing better than to bulldoze everything in sight. And that will take a crisis event to accomplish.

As I recall, the anomaly removed the presence of a hero generation. No disrespect but this is America and the book wasn't manufactured and published for free. Market factors apply to everything these days. It's pretty clear to me that the book was written to appeal to two primary age groups of readers/customers/consumers. So, who is parochial and provincial in the way they view things and think. We are sitting in the Gilded Age right now and our side has decided to begin moving forward with or without blue consent. We've been doing business with the world since we started out as a country and I expect that will continue. As I've told you, the Republican voters aren't dumb or as backward as you claim.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-03-2020, 09:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We could probably start a war within China or back independence for Hong Kong or convince the G7 to vote to ix nay China or do all of them. China probably isn't  going to nuke itself.

I doubt it. The evidence that China launched a bio war on itself is more trumped up than the evidence that Saddam had WMDs. There is only so much you can do when you have a reputation as a liar.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-03-2020, 09:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Are you sure that the idiots protesting are not even uglier than this?

Close, but the cartoon likely exaggerates, except that guy in black in the rear.

Their hearts, maybe.

[pbrower2a]

(05-03-2020, 02:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 10:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I get the jest of theory. I'm not much of a book reader these days. So, I'll have to pass on reading up and getting more familiar with the works of Strauss and Howe at this point. To be honest, the anomaly that skewed the generations pretty killed the credibility of S&H theory in my opinion. The 1950's had little to no resemblance of the gilded age. The world had changed/advanced significantly. My grandmother's and grandfather's were born when the use of horses and buggies and heavy manual labor to do most everything was still common.

I don't believe that we will return to the Gilded Age. We are far to advanced to return to the Gilded Age. We might have to part ways with  some blue  states who seem more likely to be heading that direction anyway but that's their problem. I'd say the combination of World War I, The Great Depression and World II significantly transformed most of  Europe. So, I'd say that's what it would take to significantly transform the US at this point. I'm not sure what the last question pertains to? COVID19? Yes, I believe that we will eventually get back to the way we were before the COVID19 crisis.

Hmm.

The culture that was the 13 colonies has changed much over the years.  It has not changed steadily.  It goes in fits and starts.  The bulk of the change has occurred in the crisis.  It occurs not the full prophet - nomad - civic generation, but in the five or so years after the trigger and regeneracy when a profound challenge to the culture manifests.

That change is profound and permanent.  One of the predictions made in the S&H books is that the change is always greater than what is anticipated going in.  If you look at the difference between the unravelling culture and the following high, the difference is extreme.

There is no going back.[/quote]

Crisis Eras happen due to the depravity of the preceding 3T going too far to allow the stability of the overall system. What initially seemed to have nothing but good results (fun and profit) for the first participants becomes increasingly destructive of the fabric of society and the resilience of the economy. Maybe if the depravity were immediately harmful to the participants, then people would stop. But it is like propylene glycol (a common antifreeze) to dogs -- they love the sweet taste and lap it up. The stuff can kill dogs, but dogs do not know that. 

So people shade the rules to facilitate some profitable deals. Bankers see higher interest rates on loans with minimal collateral and little concern for safety -- such as whether the investment will hurt customers. The celebrity circus and mindless entertainments rot minds and turn people from activities that might improve them as people. People start looking solely to the short term at the expense of the long term. Speculative booms become more attractive than 'old hat' investment. Politics becomes a means more of dividing the economy among selfish, predatory interests instead of service to people who need help. Government fosters speculative booms with loose money that facilitates the gutting of investment in job-creating plant and equipment. The people left behind get burned, but in time more and more people get burned.

Reagan tried to make America safe for plutocracy, but Trump has sought to make it almost purely so, adding a pseudo-populist veneer of ehnic and religious bigotry and contempt for science and culture. 

Quote:COVID 19 is a unique trigger.  It has generally been a big violent event marking the beginning of a crisis war, though there was the stock market crash.

COVID-19 may not be artillery shells that explode in troop concentrations and destroy whole platoons, the withering fire of machine-gun fire that picks off troops that move against the enemy side or a thermite bomb that initiates apocalyptic fires where people have wooden structures. It simply kills, and it devours personal savings, reserves of old earnings, and the public treasury. It is a plague.

Question: was the Black Death a Crisis? It happened before the cycles that Howe and Strauss mention in their theory. It may not have been war, although there were some nasty wars at the time. It had a cultural influence in creating much of the imagery of senseless death in the West.    

Quote:Now I have always taken the warning that the change is always more profound than anticipated as a personal challenge.  I generally anticipate a larger change than even most progressives.  The way the game is played well is to anticipate big.  

I expect some 4T trends to crystallize. The tendency toward an omnibus culture will culminate in an omnibus culture that entertains without offending or confusing. It will offer something for everyone. I expect profanity, bigotry, and pornography to recess to the hidden fringe. People who imbibe in such will pretend not to do so. Because it must appeal to all age groups, the post-Crisis culture will not be cerebral. Intellectual types will be pointed toward Goethe and Dostoevsky and told to not talk about what they get from such literature to people who just don't get it. Classical music will be reduced to vignettes for easy consumption by the middle-brow -- Schubert's Marche Militaire instead of his extended string quintet. Again, if one really wants to listen to an extended work of classical music long enough to pull one through the emotional wringer you will be told not to talk about it to people who just don't get it. Too bad, but it is definitely not "kid stuff". 

Of course there will be major reforms in economic practices. Lenders will start acting more like the fictional George Bailey, who prefers that people put their spare income into savings instead of "living large". We are going to flip from a borrow-and-spend economy to a save-and-invest economy. Long-term investments with a steady stream of modest yields will be more fashionable than "quick killings". Government will raise taxes to pay off Crisis debt. The common will generally recognize that the stock market is for people who really know what they are doing -- and high taxes on "unearned" income will keep market valuations low in contrast to what we saw as late as February, when many thought that 30 K on the DJIA was just around the corner. Very soon I would not be all that surprised to see the Dow to stabilize around 15 K.

We will see changes in the ways in which people build and use real estate. I expect inefficient land use to disappear as post-WWII suburban housing gives way to huge blocks of flats. Our giant cities will begin to better resemble Seoul or Tokyo than the awful wrecks around Los Angeles. Politicians will seek to revive old industrial cities. Work? We will see office occupations more decentralized, with people priced out of Austin who work for the State of Texas being able to work in Tyler. the rapid spread of COVID-19 in food-processing plants that crowded people together and maximized profits through harsh management that pressured people to work sick will lead to major reforms. If such could be done to illegal aliens, then the illegal aliens whose citizen children work there will have the vote and will find politicians more willing to support labor unions. Working conditions will improve. Of course many of us will miss the recent bargains that cheaply-prepared meat and poultry were before supplies started to run out  as processing plants had their own health crises. Most of us didn't ask any questions, and now we have the answers, unpleasant as they are, in plain sight.

Consumer spending habits will be different. We will recognize that all human needs can be met with far fewer hours of work than we once needed. Much will adjust, with special interests of our times getting less for what they offer. Economic rents get pared extensively in an economic meltdown as they are not so much the engine of progress but instead the devourer of economic progress in a 3T. Consumer spending habits will change. Just look at what recovers and what doesn't following the current plague.   

      

Quote:If a conservative thinks linearly, that the culture will remain the same or will continue the trends of the unraveling, one can quietly snicker.  Change is coming.  One might have to be patient, but it is coming.  It is now here.

Yup. Certain aspects of life may move in a linear direction; think of the axle on a vehicle and he center of the hub on the vehicle's wheels. But note well: even as a vehicle progresses, the top of the tire is headed backwards as the bottom of the wheel moves forward.  Were it not for the top of the tire and wheel heading back ,so that it can replace the section that ceases contact with the road, the vehicle would come to a crashing halt if it had started moving.  

Quote:I missed.  I anticipated the blue progressive Democratic agenda so long debated.  I did not anticipate the Coronavirus.  Who could?  OK.  That is what we’ve got.  During the other three turnings (high, awakening, unravelling) and even the bulk of the crisis, thinthe people who work n gs don’t change.  For one reason or another, the culture was stuck.  We are just entering the heart of the crisis.  The regeneracy should complete as the progressives take charge of the federal government.  After that, change, big time.  Again, permanent and profound.

We have long been complacent in assuming that respiratory infections do not cause mass death in advanced  industrial societies -- and this is what we have as a Crisis. We are discovering that much that we have assumed about modern life depends upon the suppression of dangerous infectious diseases. COVID-19 is a monster that will cripple as well as kill. People might survive it only to develop severe consequences from it that can shorten their lives. We  have had cheap meat because we thought that we could get away with crowding people who work in processing plants and treating them badly. Much of the hedonism that made an economy with the sort of inequality that one associates with a society under the rule of a fascist junta tolerable is all too dangerous now. We have huge adjustments to make in what cannot return to business as usual, although some deeds that seem to make us feel human will return in time. How much time? Nobody knows. Rushing such is asking for a visit from the Grim Reaper.

Quote:Hanging around a T4T forum can be kind of tedious for a progressive.  Sure, there is many a time when we are in the majority and dominate the conversation.  But still, the culture is stuck.  it just sits there.  Nothing moves.  The conservatives can just sit there and propose that what is should continue, and so mote it be.

Progress will depend upon the disappearance of the power of people who have lorded it over everyone else because they could get away with such. Their political flunkies will be marginalized or rendered irrelevant even if they are not defeated electorally.

Quote:For a few years we get to run amok.  It might not be pretty, but things will change.

In a few years what we rarely see correctly now will seem so inevitable that we will wonder how we thought that things would turn out differently. Hindsight is far clearer than foresight.

Quote:If you don't like it, well, most people don't like a crisis.  Not to worry, the high is coming.

As a young adult (a Boomer in the 1970's) I then thought the 1950's creepy. I now can see no other viable path to progress then on to the Next High. The next High will not have the same faults.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-04-2020, 01:43 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-03-2020, 09:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We could probably start a war within China or back independence for Hong Kong or convince the G7 to vote to ix nay China or do all of them. China probably isn't  going to nuke itself.

I doubt it.  The evidence that China launched a bio war on itself is more trumped up than the evidence that Saddam had WMDs.  There is only so much you can do when you have a reputation as a liar.

You have to be able keep up with the information these days. No one here is saying it was a biological attack at this point except China these days. Right now, China is blaming us for a biological attack attack on them. As far as I know, COVID19 was the result of an accident that took place in a r medical testing facility. We already ruled out a biological attack.

[David Horn]

(05-02-2020, 10:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I get the jest of theory. I'm not much of a book reader these days. So, I'll have to pass on reading up and getting more familiar with the works of Strauss and Howe at this point. To be honest, the anomaly that skewed the generations pretty killed the credibility of S&H theory in my opinion. The 1950's had little to no resemblance of the gilded age. The world had changed/advanced significantly. My grandmother's and grandfather's were born when the use of horses and buggies and heavy manual labor to do most everything was still common.

The 1950s were a 1T, not a 3T.  The 3T we often associate with the original Gilded Age took place late in the 19th and early in the 20th centuries.  It ended with the Crash of '29, that wiped out so many in the Gilded class, and ushered in the 4T.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't believe that we will return to the Gilded Age. We are far to advanced to return to the Gilded Age. We might have to part ways with  some blue  states who seem more likely to be heading that direction anyway but that's their problem. I'd say the combination of World War I, The Great Depression and World II significantly transformed most of  Europe. So, I'd say that's what it would take to significantly transform the US at this point. I'm not sure what the last question pertains to? COVID19? Yes, I believe that we will eventually get back to the way we were before the COVID19 crisis.

You can't go where you already are.  Gilded Age 2.0 may finally be ending (or not -- still TBD), but it raged on starting with the Reagan Presidency and our new confidence in the power of the markets and the private sector in general. Well, it worked great for some, OK for others, but overall, the 3T economy impoverished more than it lifted up -- a lot more.  The belief structure is starting to collapse, as people who have done the right things for decades finally realize that society doesn't have their backs.  It's already happening.  Will it go far enough to make real change?  Again: TBD.

[David Horn]

(05-03-2020, 01:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 11:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: The big difference: the Koreans actually followed the rules from day one without being forced to do so.  The why is easy: they had prior experience.  We Americans pooh-poohed the entire thing until the oh-oh moment arrived, and denial became impossible. To be honest, the West Coast did better, but the so-far less affected are ready to do stupid again -- even with the examples they see on TV everyday.

So, who is the ultra conservative now????

Most conservatives are part of the 'Live free or die' crowd.  That's an individualist position.  What the Koreans did was about as communitarian as it gets.  I haven't seen any of the Progressives out in the streets demanding that the rules be dropped so they can do as they please.  I've seen plenty from the right, though.

[David Horn]

(05-03-2020, 01:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yep. The Tea Party is back. A few thousand today. A few more thousand tomorrow, a few hundred thousand more after that and so on. Who do they represent? The 10 million unemployed people who are going to need another trillion advance of free money to keep themselves, their business's and local economies afloat or pretty loose everything and watch as an entire area goes broke. So, how do you hurt/punish liberal elitists who live in Ivory Towers who don't know what it's like to held accountable or severely hurt/punished these days? What do all the elite purples and reds within the entire  country do to punish them/teach them a hard lesson about life/growing and RESPECT? Do you think Queen Nancy has ever met a real grown up? I'm not talking about her mega rich hubby who tosses money at her to shut her up and pays off her credit cards every month and buys her diamond rings and pulled the strings to get her in office and paved the way for her to be the Speaker of the House today. I'm talking about a real grown up with no emotional ties to her, her hubby, her party, her ideology or religion, her personal wealth and so forth. What would Nancy be without them? I know what I am without them and Nancy would figure that out really quick. You seem like an elitist to me. An elitist without an Ivory Tower but still an elitist of sort. Me, I'm just a purple elite who happens to be a natural leader who prefers to remain private and prefers a life of solitude. I don't know, what do you think, do you think that I could be an elitist liberal wrecking machine who intervenes and basically destroys radical liberal forums that promote hate speech and racism and Marxist revolution?

Buried in this comment is a huge dose of irony. Yes, the Tea Party is back, expecting miracles and certainly no taxes. We'll see how the return-to-work gig works out. I suspect that past is prologue, so the Great Return to Work will become the Great Second Wave of COVID. What will you say them? Should we just work and die?

The who and what do you chose to bitch about? Nancy Pelosi and Marxism. Well, the future of the country may come down to spending like drunken sailors (let's let the 'sailors' drink this time -- the 'Admirals' already got more than their share already), and maybe -- just maybe -- there will be an economy to restart in a year or so.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-04-2020, 09:28 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-04-2020, 01:43 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-03-2020, 09:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We could probably start a war within China or back independence for Hong Kong or convince the G7 to vote to ix nay China or do all of them. China probably isn't  going to nuke itself.

I doubt it.  The evidence that China launched a bio war on itself is more trumped up than the evidence that Saddam had WMDs.  There is only so much you can do when you have a reputation as a liar.

You have to be able keep up with the information these days. No one here is saying it was a biological attack at this point except China these days. Right now, China is blaming us for a biological attack attack on them. As far as I know, COVID19 was the result of an accident that took place in a r medical testing facility. We already ruled out a biological attack.

I don’t bother to keep up with all the rumors and conspiracy theories.  Governments lie.  The press has its agendas.  Partisans believe whatever the makes them more partisan.  I’d rather spend my time chasing the odd exception where someone is actually telling the truth.

[David Horn]

(05-03-2020, 04:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Would you rather die by starving to death alone in your home while waiting for a cure or would you prefer to be shot while scavenging by a neighbor or prefer to have to REALLY beg for a living vs the easier cozy blue version of begging/self pity that you do from the seat of your pants like you do here. Financially speaking, I know Michigan wasn't even close to being in the same financial shape as Minnesota was in before COVID19 showed up.

You assume that without work, we all starve. That's only true if money to buy food is unavailable, and, as I noted earlier, money is fake anyway. Did you get the fake money infusion to your bank account from the first stimulus bill? We got ours. That money didn't exist until it was delivered to our accounts. More can be on the way for as long as it takes. We'll put the economy back in place once the price of having it doesn't require people dying.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-04-2020, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote: Buried in this comment is a huge dose of irony.  Yes, the Tea Party is back, expecting miracles and certainly no taxes.  We'll see how the return-to-work gig works out. I suspect that past is prologue, so the Great Return to Work will become the Great Second Wave of COVID.  What will you say them?  Should we just work and die?

The who and what do you chose to bitch about?  Nancy Pelosi and Marxism.  Well, the future of the country may come down to spending like drunken sailors (let's let the 'sailors' drink this time -- the 'Admirals' already got more than their share already), and maybe -- just maybe -- there will be an economy to restart in a year or so.

Maybe the Great Second Wave of COVID will teach people to work smart. It should be possible to perform some functions with an absolute maximum of isolation. Those who think the economy needs to restart should be working towards exactly how to do that safely. If someone has a pretty good idea of how, let them give it a try.

I am also thinking now is the time to reduce the retirement age and perhaps the length of the work week. The older people are vulnerable to the bug, and shouldn’t be out there. There is a surplus of labor at vital jobs, and people aren’t seeking them out. Luxuries are not going to profit just now. Maybe people should be delivery drivers or grocery workers rather than try to sell a pretty bauble.

Think, people. The crisis is supposed to be a time of trial and error. So trial and error already.

[David Horn]

(05-03-2020, 09:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The 1950s had quite a few similarities to the gilded age, as S&H defined it (and I agree with their dates). The Age of Hate mirrored McCarthyism, and the end of Reconstruction matched the end of reform under Eisenhower. Progress toward human rights and equality pretty much ended in both eras, and as the name suggests, the Gilded Age matched the materialism of the "progress is our most important product" era of the 1950s and early 60s. Much building and industrial growth occurred in both eras. Prosperity grew in the Gilded Age, as in the American Decade, but the bourgeois mentality predominated over the slowly-growing labor activism and socialist thought, much as civil rights controversy and economic inequality was beginning to stir activism in the 1950s, but not getting too far yet.

I'll disagree with this. What made the Gilded Age what it was centered on the inequality of hyper wealth and abject poverty, with more in the latter class as time went on. To the contrary, the 1950s were the labor renaissance. Inequality dropped as the economy soared, because labor unions were strong and the government had their back -- more or less. Then, stagflation happened, and the Gilded cycle started again .. but not before!

[David Horn]

(05-04-2020, 12:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As I recall, the anomaly removed the presence of a hero generation. No disrespect but this is America and the book wasn't manufactured and published for free. Market factors apply to everything these days. It's pretty clear to me that the book was written to appeal to two primary age groups of readers/customers/consumers. So, who is parochial and provincial in the way they view things and think. We are sitting in the Gilded Age right now and our side has decided to begin moving forward with or without blue consent. We've been doing business with the world since we started out as a country and I expect that will continue. As I've told you, the Republican voters aren't dumb or as backward as you claim.

FYI: the economy has been more or less stagnant for the past decade or two. That's why inflation is near zero, if it isn't negative at this point. Who, in their right mind, would prefer a sclerotic economy to a vibrant one? Here's a hint: to get a vibrant economy, more people need more money to spend. 70% of the economy is consumer spending, after all, and your income is their spending. So yes, Republicans are dumb -- all of them.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-04-2020, 11:05 AM)David Horn Wrote: FYI: the economy has been more or less stagnant for the past decade or two. That's why inflation is near zero, if it isn't negative at this point.  Who, in their right mind, would prefer a sclerotic economy to a vibrant one? Here's a hint: to get a vibrant economy, more people need more money to spend. 70% of the economy is consumer spending, after all, and your income is their spending.  So yes, Republicans are dumb -- all of them.

I can just see Socrates now, searching for a Republican who knew he knew nothing.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-04-2020, 10:20 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-03-2020, 01:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-02-2020, 11:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: The big difference: the Koreans actually followed the rules from day one without being forced to do so.  The why is easy: they had prior experience.  We Americans pooh-poohed the entire thing until the oh-oh moment arrived, and denial became impossible. To be honest, the West Coast did better, but the so-far less affected are ready to do stupid again -- even with the examples they see on TV everyday.

So, who is the ultra conservative now????

Most conservatives are part of the 'Live free or die' crowd.  That's an individualist position.  What the Koreans did was about as communitarian as it gets.  I haven't seen any of the Progressives out in the streets demanding that the rules be dropped so they can do as they please.  I've seen plenty from the right, though.

Like you said, the South Koreans were better prepared and more experienced than us and their culture as a whole is probably more strict and less wishy washy and less concerned about peoples feelings. I saw a bunch of them sitting in seats and wearing their masks while watching a world figure skating event in Soul during a pandemic just before things went nuts over here. So, why aren't we watching baseball right now? Aren't there enough masks yet? Don't we have enough factories to manufacture enough masks HERE or don't we have enough manufactured materials HERE to manufacture them either? What's up, where did our manufacturing go? I haven't been to a Twins baseball game for over twenty years. The last time that I went to a game, I watched a Twins pitcher throw a no hitter. How do you top that? You probably don't, so you stop going to games and watch them play ball at home instead.

[Classic-Xer]

(05-04-2020, 11:05 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(05-04-2020, 12:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As I recall, the anomaly removed the presence of a hero generation. No disrespect but this is America and the book wasn't manufactured and published for free. Market factors apply to everything these days. It's pretty clear to me that the book was written to appeal to two primary age groups of readers/customers/consumers. So, who is parochial and provincial in the way they view things and think. We are sitting in the Gilded Age right now and our side has decided to begin moving forward with or without blue consent. We've been doing business with the world since we started out as a country and I expect that will continue. As I've told you, the Republican voters aren't dumb or as backward as you claim.

FYI: the economy has been more or less stagnant for the past decade or two. That's why inflation is near zero, if it isn't negative at this point.  Who, in their right mind, would prefer a sclerotic economy to a vibrant one? Here's a hint: to get a vibrant economy, more people need more money to spend. 70% of the economy is consumer spending, after all, and your income is their spending.  So yes, Republicans are dumb -- all of them.

For your information, we haven't seen unemployment numbers like we are seeing now since the GREAT DEPRESSION. So, how much more money are the Progressives going to pay me/us to go along with their dream of a better world? I'd like to be a multi-millionaire but I would except a half million in gold? If Biden can guarantee either, I'll vote for him. Like I said, Republican voters aren't dumb and the Democratic voters that we know personally aren't dumb either. In case you aren't aware, the Bernie way was rejected by the well to do Progressives or liberal Democrats. Like I said, the Democrats are all good as long as the Democrats themselves don't have to pay. I beg to differ, the Republican voters aren't dumb and the Democratic voters aren't dumb either. So, where does that leave you and the others here?

[Classic-Xer]

(05-04-2020, 10:50 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(05-04-2020, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote: Buried in this comment is a huge dose of irony.  Yes, the Tea Party is back, expecting miracles and certainly no taxes.  We'll see how the return-to-work gig works out. I suspect that past is prologue, so the Great Return to Work will become the Great Second Wave of COVID.  What will you say them?  Should we just work and die?

The who and what do you chose to bitch about?  Nancy Pelosi and Marxism.  Well, the future of the country may come down to spending like drunken sailors (let's let the 'sailors' drink this time -- the 'Admirals' already got more than their share already), and maybe -- just maybe -- there will be an economy to restart in a year or so.

Maybe the Great Second Wave of COVID will teach people to work smart.  It should be possible to perform some functions with an absolute maximum of isolation.  Those who think the economy needs to restart should be working towards exactly how to do that safely.  If someone has a pretty good idea of how, let them give it a try.

I am also thinking now is the time to reduce the retirement age and perhaps the length of the work week.  The older people are vulnerable to the bug, and shouldn’t be out there.  There is a surplus of labor at vital jobs, and people aren’t seeking them out.  Luxuries are not going to profit just now.  Maybe people should be delivery drivers or grocery workers rather than try to sell a pretty bauble.

Think, people.  The crisis is supposed to be a time of trial and error.  So trial and error already.

Maybe, we will have significantly advanced in our overall capabilities by the time the 2nd wave hits and it won't be that big of a deal. Hint. The crisis shouldn't be a time for trial and error these days. In the past yes but not today.

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-04-2020, 02:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Maybe, we will have significantly advanced in our overall capabilities by the time the 2nd wave hits and it won't be that big of a deal. Hint. The crisis shouldn't be a time for trial and error these days. In the past yes but not today.

The crisis should be a time of trial and error.  It should not be a time for idle hope or wishful thinking.  It should not be a time of hoping we will return to the unraveling which will last forever.  

There is part of the population that wants to pretend no problem exists, and the problem will just go away with no dire changes.  They have believed in small government, low taxes, low domestic spending, and that if you believe hard enough that problems don’t exist they will magically disappear.  I have been saying for decades that such world views and values will not change until there is some major disaster.  I commonly give Atlanta in the Civil War or Hiroshima in World War II as examples.  How many deaths will COVID 19 have to cause before it will have the required effect?  How much will it take to open eyes determinedly closed?

Determine a plan to go back to your job or any job safely.  Apply to your governor to put that plan in place.  See if he will let you.  Don't just gripe and wish.  To sit and do nothing is to have people die.

I don’t anticipate a return to the past.  There are problems that will in time bite you in the rear if you don’t solve them.  These problems have been proven to exist.  Wishful thinking won’t make them go away.