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RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 01-16-2021
(01-15-2021, 04:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The group that stormed the capitol was a mixed group of individuals who got involved for various reasons. Law enforcement is in the process of apprehending them and figuring all of that out right now. I accepted Biden was going to be the next President a long time ago. I'll never give him credit for winning fair and square. I don't believe he truly earned it or really deserves to be the President either. I think his election is going to turn out to be a major mistake/blunder since it occurred at the wrong time in history. A pivotal time is not the time to elect an old man with dementia or a token VP or a bunch of arrogant morons who have been protected by a system with double standards for years. As I've said, I'm not much of a wishful thinker or one who clings to false hopes or laurels associated with bygone eras. I don't believe what occurred with election laws in some key battle ground states was legal. If 40% equates to 70 some million Americans who ain't going to budge or concede then your in trouble when the the shit hits the fan and it starts to really heat up. AS I mentioned, social justice is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. I've also mentioned that the left is playing with fire and walking on thin ice and waking a sleeping giant.
Here's the rub. Much of what you sense has a real basis, but the underlying "facts" are so dramatically different that your adding 1+1 and my adding the same two numbers leads to very different sums. Is there are a real underlying "conspiracy" to advantage some at the expense of others? Yes there is, but we see very different villains because we have very different "facts" as evidence. Your 40% is caught in an information bubble that is structured to get a desired result by the people who control it, and the cracks are beginning to show. If there was widespread cheating, where is the evidence? The physical ballots matched the electronic count, and the number of votes cast. Republican gained seats in the House in the very areas they claim were "stolen"? Why would that happen? IF stealing's the game, then steal both!
Biden may not succeed as POTUS, but Trump has been an unmitigated failure. We'll see how that plays. Meanwhile, you might do well to get a copy of Kurt Anderson's book Evil Geniuses, and try to square you beliefs with his well researched facts.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 01-16-2021
(01-16-2021, 09:13 AM)David Horn Wrote: Biden may not succeed as POTUS, but Trump has been an unmitigated failure.
That might be nominated for the understatement of the week. In comparison to Trump, at least Biden has a low bar.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 01-16-2021
(01-16-2021, 01:11 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [quote pid='73458' dateline='1610764215']
Quote:Biden becomes President in less than a week. The election is over and the final score was 81-74. Bob even admits the obvious law changes that were illegal could hurt Biden. So, what would the removal of all the illegal votes for Biden do to the final score. Would it even it up quite a bit or tilt in favor of Trump? As a general rule, time reveals evidence and truth? Biden looks, acts and sounds like a seventy year old man with dementia before Alzheimer's kicks in. I've already seen how Biden is going to govern. He's going to govern as more of a Progressive than a centrist Democrat. He has to in order to maintain peace within the party/cities. May as well, he has a fascist system already ready in place with corporations who are already operating above the law protecting and persecuting/intimating lawyers/threats and eliminating the possibility of political dissent right now. As far as I'm concerned, I'm speaking to a supporter of fascism right now. BTW, I'm not surprised by it either. I've been warning you about the Democratic party and telling you keep your eyes on them for years but you weren't listening or paying attention and more focused on promoting and spreading Left Wing propaganda as usual.
(1 - on electoral fraud deciding the election) The changes made in electoral law this year were made to counteract the effects of COVID-19 upon voting. People have the right to vote in safety, and as a general rule, changes in electoral practice that facilitate the voting of more persons eligible to vote pass Constitutional muster. Measures intended to prevent votes cast or accepted in error or fraud (and error is more common than fraud) also pass Constitutional muster. That other states (Oregon for several years and Utah last year) can go all-mail or nearly-all-mail demonstrate that such is permissible in other states. States have the obligation to make voting safe for voters, and COVID-19 is about as much a menace as would be a Klan group in robes that displays a sign that says "N----, vote here and die! - KKK". The local police would tell such a group to either go home on their own or take a ride in a squad car to the county lock-up and risk federal and state criminal charges. Well, COVID-19 is far more dangerous than the Klan ever was. It is impossible to fit handcuffs on COVID-19.
Should those changes remain -- and they will remain in many states that approved them -- then they will remain valid. The biggest agent of electoral fraud in 2020 was COVID-19!
Electoral fraud and electoral errors were nowhere close enough to decide the Presidential election in any state that went for Biden. The recounts, some mandated by law, were done, and they gave similar results. You may have trouble with people voting with similar names (as there would be large numbers of voters with similar names in Georgia -- black or Anglo-Saxon, and Arizona, as there is far less variety among Spanish surnames)... but the system can adjust to that.
(2- on mental and physical decline associated with Joe Biden and old age) -- all people over sixty are at risk of severe decline in physical and mental health. To be sure, people in their eighties can still be very sharp, especially if they keep physically and mentally active. One big difference between the Lost and GI generations is longevity, which may reflect several factors. I will concede that the Lost were likely the heaviest smokers in American history, and that may have kept them as a group less likely to reach old age. Lung cancer and premature heart disease killed lots of them. Note also that the Lost were more likely to be relegated to nursing homes early when such was relatively inexpensive, and the Lost were inconvenient for a country whose middle-class families were on the move. "Granny" was often unwilling to make the move from Springfield, Massachusetts to Springfield, Illinois (not that either is particularly attractive today) or could not adapt easily to suburban life, and "Grandpa" might not fit in among 'hip' people trying to find themselves with exotic religions and with hallucinogens.
The GI's refused as long as was possible any incarceration in any "Home for the Golden Years" (Orwellian doubletalk at its worst -- yes, there actually is a chain of nursing homes by that name). They remained attentive to current events, they worked crossword and jigsaw puzzles, they read, and they got exercise. They discovered that time spent on physical fitness (even if it was "only" walking the family dog) gave people more time and wasn't so dreadful. Sure, George Romney (father of Mitt, and former Governor of Michigan) died of heart failure on a treadmill... at age 89. That's far better, I suppose, then dying of heart failure in a nursing home at age 72. The Silent have followed the GI pattern of staying physically and mentally active into old age, and Boomers seem to be following that trend.
The 2020 election was a choice between two old men. Donald Trump looks like death warmed over, and Joe Biden shows his age. Four years of difference in age does not mean that much when bad habits age one faster. I would promote President Trump's eating habits... to lifers in prison. Other than that one had a choice of character, and Donald Trump has behavior troublesome at any age. If you have a daughter, do you want some street thug grabbing her by her "kitty-cats" without her consent? Add to this, Trump has no intellectual curiosity; he is a religious and ethnic bigot. He disparages science. He has poor moral and intellectual discretion, and I would not hire someone like that for any position that isn't so mechanistic in operation that someone else exercises discretion. Most often such a person is best suited to a sheltered workshop to prevent exploitation of the person's poor judgment. President of the United States? The worst position possible for someone like that.
Let's put it this way -- Trump would have never made it through Officer Candidates' School.
(3 -- 'centrist' versus 'progressive' Democrat?) Get used to it: the Millennial Generation is just getting its start in high-level politics. It took until the first Millennials turned 39 for the first US Senator from the Millennial Generation was elected... and if I am handicapping the Presidential election of 2032 I give a high chance of election to Jon Ossoff (D-GA). He is only the first, and there will be more... far more. The Millennial Generation doesn't believe the neoliberal offer that being overworked and underpaid is simply a delightful vacation from hunger and homelessness that most of us deserve. It is too rational to accept the pseudoscience and superstition that goes with the contemporary Right.
Forty years of mostly reactionary politics and economic doctrine that serve only those already rich and powerful and their progeny or cronies has served the rest of America (including the people that you consider "American" as opposed to my broader view of what constitutes being American) badly. Neoliberal ideology is basically mirror-image Marxism that differs from orthodox Marxism only in endorsing the traits of capitalist plutocracy that orthodox Marxists excoriate. If you want to save capitalism, then make sure that it does not resemble a Marxist stereotype of rapacious plutocrats who compel proles to work to exhaustion for near-starvation pay and slum housing.
(4 -- on fascism: you describe Donald Trump and the Tea Party (Donald Trump is the Presidential expression of the Tea Party) very well. This ideology is harmful to children and other living things, to use a 1960's phrase. The prosperity that it creates for a few requires mass poverty as a norm for all not among the rich-and-powerful and not simply as a punishment for laziness, improvidence, and incompetence. (Some people really deserve poverty, but capitalism works best when the common man has a stake in the system). "Liberal fascism" is about as much an oxymoron as "trustworthy sociopath" or "sane lunatic".
Need I go into the details on how humanistic liberalism is the diametric opposite of fascism? All men are brothers, says the liberal; the fascist clearly believes that some peoples are born to dominate and exploit other people for their own good. Liberals, social democrats. and many conservatives have excellent records on human rights; fascists have a record of repression, cruelty, and mass murder rivaling Commies and mad despots. Liberals see peace as a consequence of human brotherhood and rule of law, and fascists see peace only as a consequence of complete subjection of others after extermination of those who resist. Liberals are internationalists and fascists are ultra-nationalists... indeed the definitive expression of tribal thinking. Fascism sees religion solely as a tool of identity or subordination while liberals see religion as a means (if one so chooses) of discovery and self-improvement. Fascists use Newspeak. Need I go on?
(5 -- on the Democratic Party)... it is the Republican Party that has abandoned most of its old heritage of sponsoring liberty. The current Republican party has accepted a wannabe dictator. Much of it has yet to realize the harm that Donald Trump has wrought upon America. Upon itself? I am satisfied that the GOP will purge itself of its cranks, hucksters, and totalitarians or it will go into oblivion. Such will be a sad end to the Party of Lincoln. Conservatism will recover as an antithesis of left-wing radicalism, and incompetence or corruption of liberal politicians. Forty to fifty years from now the Skowronek cycle that begins when Biden supplants Trump will find that the measures that Biden and his successors take will become increasingly ineffective and even counterproductive.
Quote:So, how much of the United States do you want to find yourself fighting against within next four years? We might even give 10 more congressional seats to further feed false impressions for Progressives to misread and further act upon. Keep in mind, we aren't nearly as emotionally driven as the Left. In four years, Washington DC will be on the brink of bankruptcy (the speculative boom your not seeing either). America will be primed to break with tradition declare its independence from the Democratic party and separate from blue states that will be failing miserably by then. Also, there will be a very clear distinction between the Tea Party/Trump party and the Democratic party by then as well. May as well, America did before in 1776 with the British and America can do it again 2024 with the Democrats. We can't play games with China and fully rely on diplomacy like Biden plans. If someone is going to be immigrating else where, the someone is going to be you not me. I don't see any other way out of the situation we are in as a nation now. As I've mentioned several times, oil and water doesn't mix and when relationships are no longer productive then its time to part ways. You're a fair weather American fan at best.
[/quote]
[/quote]
So it is onward and upward through some high-tech feudalism that resembles something out of a Flash Gordon serial of the 1930's? That's where we were headed, and it didn't look so great in the 1930's and it doesn't feel good now. What could possibly be wrong with a high-tech version of feudalism? Oh, maybe fascism is much like feudalism in its brutality, inequality, deceit, and repression!
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 01-16-2021
(01-16-2021, 12:09 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: So it is onward and upward through some high-tech feudalism that resembles something out of a Flash Gordon serial of the 1930's? That's where we were headed, and it didn't look so great in the 1930's and it doesn't feel good now. What could possibly be wrong with a high-tech version of feudalism? Oh, maybe fascism is much like feudalism in its brutality, inequality, deceit, and repression!
I see fascism and communism as attempts to continue the autocratic feudal tradition while taking advantage of the technology advantages of the industrial revolution, Thus, the autocratic tradition is continued.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 01-17-2021
(01-14-2021, 04:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:I can see that you're delusional at the moment. I'll give you some time to clear your head and regain composer. I'm going to give you a chance to prove that you're not related to Adolf Hitler and any members of his tribe.(01-14-2021, 02:15 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't think that you recognize or grasp the values that we represent that are directly attached and related to your own life and whatever rights and freedoms that you have left today. Like I said, if we have to go to war with the Democratic party, we won't be going to war to keep slavery or Jim Crow laws in place. Like I've said, you aren't thinking straight anymore. Your thinking more along the lines of a lowly partisan hack. I don't know what the rest of world was doing while America was busy settling its differences during the American Civil War. I don't know what kind of a fool or lunatic or dirt bag would go along with empowering government to take away the Constitutional rights and protections of millions of American citizens.
We seem to be at a WEIRD crossroad as a nation. We have a Constitution that says its illegal for the US government to do what Facebook and Twitter and several other corporations are doing these days. How is that possible with the Democrats in power? It goes against everything you've claimed to be opposed to and associated with me for years. So, how much value do you place on Biden/Harris Presidency? Does it have to succeed or can it fail miserably? I don't place any value on it whatsoever. I don't place any value on the Democratic government of yours either. So, what do you have to do to fix that because I know of seventy some million Americans who could begin withdrawing their money and stop paying their taxes and destroy your government. Is that what you anticipate? You probably should because we live a free country. Welcome to the 4T.
I recently got up from a dream / nightmare. I was putting up another post about one of Trump’s big lies. It was about that guy at the capitol wearing a Camp Auchwitz shirt.
Ugh.
As I see the crisis issues, they include the virus, saving lives, fighting the Trump big lie that the bug will magically go away with no effort. They include BLM, the racial violent police, systematic racism, and the Republican obstruction of legislation to treat minorities better. They include now the big lie that there was a systematic voting fraud in the 2020 election. I’ll include the science denial on global warming as another Trump big lie.
With the exception of the bug keeping me away from much human contact, the big lies don’t much effect me. I’m white. The elections in Massachusetts are not controversial. I just dropped my ballot in the mail a little early to avoid the Republican obstruction. The hurricanes are mostly way south, the fires way west. So I’ll deny that this has a lot to do with me. Still, the deaths, the racial oppression, the climate disasters, the messing with the mail, the attacks on our electoral system, these big lies and effects on the people add up. I would have them stop.
Planning criminal activity has nothing to do with protected free speech. Now many of the social media companies are over reacting. That is not uncommon. You have something as big as an insurrection, the instinct is to over react, to make it stop right now. On Xenakis’s site, someone made the comparison of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They will shut down whole companies that are providing legitimate services as well as a platform to plan criminal activity. They are not giving the victim companies time to institute policies that block the bad conversations and allow the good.
Then again, the companies hit seem to be working to provide the criminal services again. Meanwhile, those seeking to hold legitimate conversation can go to many a place to hold them. There is no lack of ability to exchange ideas. For example, you are still here. Open a thread about actually implementing one of your criminal schemes and see what happens.
I doubt people will stop paying taxes. The government provides a bunch of services. Stop paying taxes and you lose the services. That is another of your daydreams.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 01-17-2021
(01-16-2021, 09:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:So, who taught you math? I went to a school that taught me one plus one equals two. How bout you? Does one plus one equal two to you too? We aren't on the same page or reading the same book these days. Who did the votes come from? Did the name on the ballots match the voter? Do we have the resources to verify the identity of every vote that was made or do we rely on voting officials to verify the identity of the voter before voting? How many unregistered or unidentified voters voted for Trump or Biden? I'm sorry dude, the last election was a major cluster fuck that will most likely end up dividing this country forever. I think its very clear that the Democrats can no longer be trusted and its time to cut bait and leave the to fuck each other forever and move on without them. You might get four years but I doubt it. I'm done with the Democrats altogether. I could care less about what's left of the GOP establishment. As far as I'm concerned, they can remain attached to Biden and go down with Biden and the Democrats.(01-15-2021, 04:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The group that stormed the capitol was a mixed group of individuals who got involved for various reasons. Law enforcement is in the process of apprehending them and figuring all of that out right now. I accepted Biden was going to be the next President a long time ago. I'll never give him credit for winning fair and square. I don't believe he truly earned it or really deserves to be the President either. I think his election is going to turn out to be a major mistake/blunder since it occurred at the wrong time in history. A pivotal time is not the time to elect an old man with dementia or a token VP or a bunch of arrogant morons who have been protected by a system with double standards for years. As I've said, I'm not much of a wishful thinker or one who clings to false hopes or laurels associated with bygone eras. I don't believe what occurred with election laws in some key battle ground states was legal. If 40% equates to 70 some million Americans who ain't going to budge or concede then your in trouble when the the shit hits the fan and it starts to really heat up. AS I mentioned, social justice is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. I've also mentioned that the left is playing with fire and walking on thin ice and waking a sleeping giant.
Here's the rub. Much of what you sense has a real basis, but the underlying "facts" are so dramatically different that your adding 1+1 and my adding the same two numbers leads to very different sums. Is there are a real underlying "conspiracy" to advantage some at the expense of others? Yes there is, but we see very different villains because we have very different "facts" as evidence. Your 40% is caught in an information bubble that is structured to get a desired result by the people who control it, and the cracks are beginning to show. If there was widespread cheating, where is the evidence? The physical ballots matched the electronic count, and the number of votes cast. Republican gained seats in the House in the very areas they claim were "stolen"? Why would that happen? IF stealing's the game, then steal both!
Biden may not succeed as POTUS, but Trump has been an unmitigated failure. We'll see how that plays. Meanwhile, you might do well to get a copy of Kurt Anderson's book Evil Geniuses, and try to square you beliefs with his well researched facts.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 01-17-2021
(01-17-2021, 04:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I can see that you're delusional at the moment. I'll give you some time to clear your head and regain composer. I'm going to give you a chance to prove that you're not related to Adolf Hitler and any members of his tribe.
Someone is delusional.
No link to Hitler as far as I was able to tell in my genealogy time. You can look into iButler and The Butlers of Brockton and try to develop something. Abe Lincoln, John Adams and Pricilla Mullins of the Mayflower I can do, but not Hitler. I have links to Hingham MA, Canada and Norway, but not Germany.
I hope we are in a WEIRD crossover position. We seem to be in a regeneracy, with a federal administration ready to solve problems again. The crisis problems seem to be COVID, COVID’s economic fall out, systematic racism, since January 6th red violence, with an honorable mention to global warming. Trump and the Republicans managed not to solve or even try to solve any of them.
Quite a few Republicans are yelling doom and gloom at the prospect of losing power in such a horrible fashion. I for one don't see it. Trump's insurrection is based on a lie. A vaccine has been developed. The senate is in democratic hands again.
We will see what develops.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 01-17-2021
(01-17-2021, 05:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(01-17-2021, 04:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I can see that you're delusional at the moment. I'll give you some time to clear your head and regain composer. I'm going to give you a chance to prove that you're not related to Adolf Hitler and any members of his tribe.
Someone is delusional.
No link to Hitler as far as I was able to tell in my genealogy time. You can look into iButler and The Butlers of Brackton and try to develop something. Abe Lincoln, John Adams and Pricilla Mullins of the Mayflower I can do, but not Hitler. I have links to Hingham MA, Canada and Norway, but not Germany.
I hope we are in a WEIRD crossover position. We seem to be in a regeneracy, with a federal administration ready to solve problems again. The crisis problems seem to be COVID, COVID’s economic fall out, systematic racism, since January 6th red violence, with an honorable mention to global warming. Trump and the Republicans managed not to solve or even try to solve any of them.
Quite a few Republicans are yelling doom and gloom at the prospect of losing power in such a horrible fashion. I for one don't see it. Trump's insurrection is based on a lie. A vaccine has been developed. The senate is in democratic hands again.
We will see what develops.
From what I understand, people known to be male-line descendants of my direct paternal line have the E35-M gene in their Y-DNA. I have yet to take the test. It is relatively rare in central Europe except among... Jews! It is associated with about 1/6 of the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish populations of Europe and North Africa. It is not exclusively Jewish, as it also appears among Berbers (northern fringe of the Sahara), and the Fulani (a people of apparent Middle-Eastern origin who found themselves on the southern fringe of the Sahara). One fellow with it is Albert Einstein. It isn't definitively Jewish. Of British origin are Lyndon Johnson and the Wright Brothers. OK. Saint Augustine of Hippo (a Berber) apparently had E35-M Y-DNA.
It's not all innocuous. Moammar Qaddafi had it and so did the Antichrist of the 20th century, Adolf Hitler. (There were plenty of allegations out that Hitler was of Jewish descent, and many Germans dealt with that the worst way possible, by hating Jews. OK, I fit three Jewish stereotypes, the most obvious of which is a German-sounding surname. (Supposedly it is Dutch, but I can't be certain). Well, at least I don't get accused of being a filthy Nazi!
I expect to take one of those genetic tests one of these days, and if I do I will leave my results. The source of my E35-M gene (if that is the one that I have) might be some Jewish refugee from some persecution. Holland was a good place in which to be a Jew except between 1940 and 1945.
Who knows, though?
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 01-17-2021
(01-17-2021, 05:41 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(01-16-2021, 09:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:(01-15-2021, 04:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The group that stormed the capitol was a mixed group of individuals who got involved for various reasons. Law enforcement is in the process of apprehending them and figuring all of that out right now. I accepted Biden was going to be the next President a long time ago. I'll never give him credit for winning fair and square. I don't believe he truly earned it or really deserves to be the President either. I think his election is going to turn out to be a major mistake/blunder since it occurred at the wrong time in history. A pivotal time is not the time to elect an old man with dementia or a token VP or a bunch of arrogant morons who have been protected by a system with double standards for years. As I've said, I'm not much of a wishful thinker or one who clings to false hopes or laurels associated with bygone eras. I don't believe what occurred with election laws in some key battle ground states was legal. If 40% equates to 70 some million Americans who ain't going to budge or concede then your in trouble when the the shit hits the fan and it starts to really heat up. AS I mentioned, social justice is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. I've also mentioned that the left is playing with fire and walking on thin ice and waking a sleeping giant.
Here's the rub. Much of what you sense has a real basis, but the underlying "facts" are so dramatically different that your adding 1+1 and my adding the same two numbers leads to very different sums. Is there are a real underlying "conspiracy" to advantage some at the expense of others? Yes there is, but we see very different villains because we have very different "facts" as evidence. Your 40% is caught in an information bubble that is structured to get a desired result by the people who control it, and the cracks are beginning to show. If there was widespread cheating, where is the evidence? The physical ballots matched the electronic count, and the number of votes cast. Republican gained seats in the House in the very areas they claim were "stolen"? Why would that happen? IF stealing's the game, then steal both!
Biden may not succeed as POTUS, but Trump has been an unmitigated failure. We'll see how that plays. Meanwhile, you might do well to get a copy of Kurt Anderson's book Evil Geniuses, and try to square your beliefs with his well researched facts.
So, who taught you math? I went to a school that taught me one plus one equals two. How bout you? Does one plus one equal two to you too? We aren't on the same page or reading the same book these days. Who did the votes come from? Did the name on the ballots match the voter? Do we have the resources to verify the identity of every vote that was made or do we rely on voting officials to verify the identity of the voter before voting? How many unregistered or unidentified voters voted for Trump or Biden? I'm sorry dude, the last election was a major cluster fuck that will most likely end up dividing this country forever. I think its very clear that the Democrats can no longer be trusted and its time to cut bait and leave the to fuck each other forever and move on without them. You might get four years but I doubt it. I'm done with the Democrats altogether. I could care less about what's left of the GOP establishment. As far as I'm concerned, they can remain attached to Biden and go down with Biden and the Democrats.
So what do you see in the Trump Party? What's the big attraction? What's in it for you and yours? I'll be honest, neither of the major parties has laurel wreaths to show for their efforts, but, for my money, Trump is so much worse that he's in a universe of his own.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 01-18-2021
While in the past I have argued that it is in the Democrat's interest to allow a defense for Trump in the second impeachment, there may be a problem. No lawyer wants to defend Trump. McConnell has delayed the trial until after Trump's time in office has ended, so none of the presidential lawyers or justice department lawyers are at his beck and call anymore. He is refusing to pay Giuliani. He already used the major firms with the bogus 'voter fraud' cases enough that they are sick of it.
He might be given lots of time, but no support.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 01-18-2021
(01-18-2021, 03:32 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: While in the past I have argued that it is in the Democrat's interest to allow a defense for Trump in the second impeachment, there may be a problem. No lawyer wants to defend Trump. McConnell has delayed the trial until after Trump's time in office has ended, so none of the presidential lawyers or justice department lawyers are at his beck and call anymore. He is refusing to pay Giuliani. He already used the major firms with the bogus 'voter fraud' cases enough that they are sick of it.
He might be given lots of time, but no support.
He may just testify on his own, with his patented form of double speak and silliness. Pass the popcorn.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 01-19-2021
(01-17-2021, 02:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:The way I see it, one party stands for core American values and beliefs and centers more on national issues while the other mainly stands for itself, whatever it presumes to be the most popular among its groups and whatever it determines is most needed for it to win or survive at a particular time. Is Trump worse than Bumbling Biden and his token VP/princess? I don't think so myself. I think Trump was better for America than both of them put together myself. I think the Left Wing media pulled off a major stunt by taking advantage of whatever trust was left in the Democratic at a vulnerable time in American history like it did leading up to Obama's election and a lot of them are going end up dead and broke because of it this time around myself. I don't care if some American someplace does whatever it takes to get rid of some oligarch who seems to think/believe he/she is more rich and powerful than the American government and the American people. Dude, I'm one of millions of customers or one of millions of hardcore Americans who could start knocking down Verizon towers or start terminating contracts pertaining to land use and destabilize and bankrupt them tomorrow. It would only take the assassination of one rich and powerful oligarch who is broadly viewed as being above the law and the destruction of a major corporation or two broadly viewed as being the same by America to prompt a massive withdrawal and tank NASDAQ again. I see the extension of American growth and opportunity and freedom with the Trump party. I see a controlled system based on preference, the elimination of the three mentioned and a prolonging of the death with Biden's/Cheney's party. The Trump party represents American progress and what America has been about throughout the ages since its conception. The Democrats are the clingers like the Democrats have always been throughout the history of the party.(01-17-2021, 05:41 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(01-16-2021, 09:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:(01-15-2021, 04:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The group that stormed the capitol was a mixed group of individuals who got involved for various reasons. Law enforcement is in the process of apprehending them and figuring all of that out right now. I accepted Biden was going to be the next President a long time ago. I'll never give him credit for winning fair and square. I don't believe he truly earned it or really deserves to be the President either. I think his election is going to turn out to be a major mistake/blunder since it occurred at the wrong time in history. A pivotal time is not the time to elect an old man with dementia or a token VP or a bunch of arrogant morons who have been protected by a system with double standards for years. As I've said, I'm not much of a wishful thinker or one who clings to false hopes or laurels associated with bygone eras. I don't believe what occurred with election laws in some key battle ground states was legal. If 40% equates to 70 some million Americans who ain't going to budge or concede then your in trouble when the the shit hits the fan and it starts to really heat up. AS I mentioned, social justice is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. I've also mentioned that the left is playing with fire and walking on thin ice and waking a sleeping giant.
Here's the rub. Much of what you sense has a real basis, but the underlying "facts" are so dramatically different that your adding 1+1 and my adding the same two numbers leads to very different sums. Is there are a real underlying "conspiracy" to advantage some at the expense of others? Yes there is, but we see very different villains because we have very different "facts" as evidence. Your 40% is caught in an information bubble that is structured to get a desired result by the people who control it, and the cracks are beginning to show. If there was widespread cheating, where is the evidence? The physical ballots matched the electronic count, and the number of votes cast. Republican gained seats in the House in the very areas they claim were "stolen"? Why would that happen? IF stealing's the game, then steal both!
Biden may not succeed as POTUS, but Trump has been an unmitigated failure. We'll see how that plays. Meanwhile, you might do well to get a copy of Kurt Anderson's book Evil Geniuses, and try to square your beliefs with his well researched facts.
So, who taught you math? I went to a school that taught me one plus one equals two. How bout you? Does one plus one equal two to you too? We aren't on the same page or reading the same book these days. Who did the votes come from? Did the name on the ballots match the voter? Do we have the resources to verify the identity of every vote that was made or do we rely on voting officials to verify the identity of the voter before voting? How many unregistered or unidentified voters voted for Trump or Biden? I'm sorry dude, the last election was a major cluster fuck that will most likely end up dividing this country forever. I think its very clear that the Democrats can no longer be trusted and its time to cut bait and leave the to fuck each other forever and move on without them. You might get four years but I doubt it. I'm done with the Democrats altogether. I could care less about what's left of the GOP establishment. As far as I'm concerned, they can remain attached to Biden and go down with Biden and the Democrats.
So what do you see in the Trump Party? What's the big attraction? What's in it for you and yours? I'll be honest, neither of the major parties has laurel wreaths to show for their efforts, but, for my money, Trump is so much worse that he's in a universe of his own.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 01-19-2021
(01-18-2021, 12:48 PM)David Horn Wrote:If the government is involved, it's a government matter and he is legally entitled to a defense. So, do you want to see and hear about Democrats being killed or wounded all over the country or what? You people aren't thinking clearly and don't quite grasp the situation that you're all in right now and will be finding yourselves being drug in deeper and deeper as the months go on and the country begins turning on you every where in the country.(01-18-2021, 03:32 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: While in the past I have argued that it is in the Democrat's interest to allow a defense for Trump in the second impeachment, there may be a problem. No lawyer wants to defend Trump. McConnell has delayed the trial until after Trump's time in office has ended, so none of the presidential lawyers or justice department lawyers are at his beck and call anymore. He is refusing to pay Giuliani. He already used the major firms with the bogus 'voter fraud' cases enough that they are sick of it.
He might be given lots of time, but no support.
He may just testify on his own, with his patented form of double speak and silliness. Pass the popcorn.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 01-19-2021
(01-19-2021, 04:29 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If the government is involved, it's a government matter and he is legally entitled to a defense.
Apparently not. No one wants to be associated with him just now. As of last night, no one was on his defense team. He apparently can't even get people to come to his going away party. Perhaps he should call on the capitol rioters again?
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 01-19-2021
(01-19-2021, 03:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(01-17-2021, 02:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:The way I see it, one party stands for core American values and beliefs and centers more on national issues while the other mainly stands for itself, whatever it presumes to be the most popular among its groups and whatever it determines is most needed for it to win or survive at a particular time. Is Trump worse than Bumbling Biden and his token VP/princess? I don't think so myself. I think Trump was better for America than both of them put together myself. I think the Left Wing media pulled off a major stunt by taking advantage of whatever trust was left in the Democratic at a vulnerable time in American history like it did leading up to Obama's election and a lot of them are going end up dead and broke because of it this time around myself. I don't care if some American someplace does whatever it takes to get rid of some oligarch who seems to think/believe he/she is more rich and powerful than the American government and the American people. Dude, I'm one of millions of customers or one of millions of hardcore Americans who could start knocking down Verizon towers or start terminating contracts pertaining to land use and destabilize and bankrupt them tomorrow. It would only take the assassination of one rich and powerful oligarch who is broadly viewed as being above the law and the destruction of a major corporation or two broadly viewed as being the same by America to prompt a massive withdrawal and tank NASDAQ again. I see the extension of American growth and opportunity and freedom with the Trump party. I see a controlled system based on preference, the elimination of the three mentioned and a prolonging of the death with Biden's/Cheney's party. The Trump party represents American progress and what America has been about throughout the ages since its conception. The Democrats are the clingers like the Democrats have always been throughout the history of the party.(01-17-2021, 05:41 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(01-16-2021, 09:13 AM)David Horn Wrote:(01-15-2021, 04:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The group that stormed the capitol was a mixed group of individuals who got involved for various reasons. Law enforcement is in the process of apprehending them and figuring all of that out right now. I accepted Biden was going to be the next President a long time ago. I'll never give him credit for winning fair and square. I don't believe he truly earned it or really deserves to be the President either. I think his election is going to turn out to be a major mistake/blunder since it occurred at the wrong time in history. A pivotal time is not the time to elect an old man with dementia or a token VP or a bunch of arrogant morons who have been protected by a system with double standards for years. As I've said, I'm not much of a wishful thinker or one who clings to false hopes or laurels associated with bygone eras. I don't believe what occurred with election laws in some key battle ground states was legal. If 40% equates to 70 some million Americans who ain't going to budge or concede then your in trouble when the the shit hits the fan and it starts to really heat up. AS I mentioned, social justice is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. I've also mentioned that the left is playing with fire and walking on thin ice and waking a sleeping giant.
Here's the rub. Much of what you sense has a real basis, but the underlying "facts" are so dramatically different that your adding 1+1 and my adding the same two numbers leads to very different sums. Is there are a real underlying "conspiracy" to advantage some at the expense of others? Yes there is, but we see very different villains because we have very different "facts" as evidence. Your 40% is caught in an information bubble that is structured to get a desired result by the people who control it, and the cracks are beginning to show. If there was widespread cheating, where is the evidence? The physical ballots matched the electronic count, and the number of votes cast. Republican gained seats in the House in the very areas they claim were "stolen"? Why would that happen? IF stealing's the game, then steal both!
Biden may not succeed as POTUS, but Trump has been an unmitigated failure. We'll see how that plays. Meanwhile, you might do well to get a copy of Kurt Anderson's book Evil Geniuses, and try to square your beliefs with his well researched facts.
So, who taught you math? I went to a school that taught me one plus one equals two. How bout you? Does one plus one equal two to you too? We aren't on the same page or reading the same book these days. Who did the votes come from? Did the name on the ballots match the voter? Do we have the resources to verify the identity of every vote that was made or do we rely on voting officials to verify the identity of the voter before voting? How many unregistered or unidentified voters voted for Trump or Biden? I'm sorry dude, the last election was a major cluster fuck that will most likely end up dividing this country forever. I think its very clear that the Democrats can no longer be trusted and its time to cut bait and leave the to fuck each other forever and move on without them. You might get four years but I doubt it. I'm done with the Democrats altogether. I could care less about what's left of the GOP establishment. As far as I'm concerned, they can remain attached to Biden and go down with Biden and the Democrats.
So what do you see in the Trump Party? What's the big attraction? What's in it for you and yours? I'll be honest, neither of the major parties has laurel wreaths to show for their efforts, but, for my money, Trump is so much worse that he's in a universe of his own.
There is no single American Way of Life, and there has not been one since English settlers appeared in Virginia and Massachusetts. There has been no single American Way of Life since the quasi-aristocrats brought slaves over to do the hard, dirty farm labor that "gentlemen" do not do and compelled those slaves to adopt models of behavior characteristic of English peasants who were not going to leave hearth and home for a dangerous New World. There has been no single American Way of Life since the British took over the Dutch colony that itself was not even majority-Dutch) in New Netherland that then includes New York City and the Hudson Valley (including New Jersey suburbs -- or Delaware, which the Swedes settled only to turn over to the Dutch before the Dutch sold out. There has been no single American Way of Life since the Quakers of southeastern Pennsylvania invited German-speaking Mennonites and Moravian Brethren to their lands because the Quakers more trusted them than they trusted other Christians to fit Quaker norms of piety. There has been no single American Way of Life since the new United States received lands between the Appalachians and the Mississippi, wherein French fur-dealers who often had First People's wives and mixed-race children were. There has been no single American Way of Life since Jefferson purchased New Orleans (about as multicultural a community as any). There has been no single American Way of Life since America annexed large territories from Spain, including Florida, in 1819 (Saint Augustine, Florida is the oldest European-established city in the USA), annexed Texas (which was a financial mess), and then acquired much of what is the southwestern quadrant of the United States from Mexico (all of what are now Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico (some of which had been connected to Texas) and most of what is now Colorado. All of this territory is now culturally more Mexican (due to immigration) than it was when it was under Mexican rule. There has been no single American Way of Life since a huge number of Irish Catholics fled famine in Ireland. There has never been a single American Way of Life since large numbers of people immigrated to America from Southern and Eastern Europe, including a large number of non-Christians (Jews) who have had a great influence upon American mass and high culture, and Italian-Americans who brought some innovative cuisine for many Americans? And don't let me get started on Asian-Americans.
Let me tell you what was un-American, though. The insurrection on January 6 was a grave menace to our Constitutional government, domestic tranquility, rule of law, and due process of the law. There have been plenty of ways in which to effect redress of grievances from racial inequity to child labor to economic distress to women's rights to labor-management relations to homophobia. All of those except racial inequity (the part that included slavery) were solved through political process and generally non-violent means, with the violent actors thrown to the curb.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 01-19-2021
(01-19-2021, 03:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(01-17-2021, 02:38 PM)David Horn Wrote: So what do you see in the Trump Party? What's the big attraction? What's in it for you and yours? I'll be honest, neither of the major parties has laurel wreaths to show for their efforts, but, for my money, Trump is so much worse that he's in a universe of his own.
The way I see it, one party stands for core American values and beliefs and centers more on national issues while the other mainly stands for itself, whatever it presumes to be the most popular among its groups and whatever it determines is most needed for it to win or survive at a particular time.
And those core American Values are what, exactly?
Classic-Xer Wrote:Is Trump worse than Bumbling Biden and his token VP/princess? I don't think so myself. I think Trump was better for America than both of them put together myself. I think the Left Wing media pulled off a major stunt by taking advantage of whatever trust was left in the Democratic at a vulnerable time in American history like it did leading up to Obama's election and a lot of them are going end up dead and broke because of it this time around myself.
Again, platitudes are not reasons. Putting a little meat on these bare bones is what I'm asking.
Classic-Xer Wrote:I don't care if some American someplace does whatever it takes to get rid of some oligarch who seems to think/believe he/she is more rich and powerful than the American government and the American people. Dude, I'm one of millions of customers or one of millions of hardcore Americans who could start knocking down Verizon towers or start terminating contracts pertaining to land use and destabilize and bankrupt them tomorrow. It would only take the assassination of one rich and powerful oligarch who is broadly viewed as being above the law and the destruction of a major corporation or two broadly viewed as being the same by America to prompt a massive withdrawal and tank NASDAQ again.
I'm no fan of the Uber-class either, but why back Trump: a certified member of that group himself. There is no greater suck-up to the rich and powerful than a person like Trump who desperately wants wants into their inner circle.
Classic-Xer Wrote:I see the extension of American growth and opportunity and freedom with the Trump party. I see a controlled system based on preference, the elimination of the three mentioned and a prolonging of the death with Biden's/Cheney's party. The Trump party represents American progress and what America has been about throughout the ages since its conception. The Democrats are the clingers like the Democrats have always been throughout the history of the party.
What progress? We're nowhere right now.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 01-19-2021
(01-19-2021, 04:29 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(01-18-2021, 12:48 PM)David Horn Wrote:(01-18-2021, 03:32 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: While in the past I have argued that it is in the Democrat's interest to allow a defense for Trump in the second impeachment, there may be a problem. No lawyer wants to defend Trump. McConnell has delayed the trial until after Trump's time in office has ended, so none of the presidential lawyers or justice department lawyers are at his beck and call anymore. He is refusing to pay Giuliani. He already used the major firms with the bogus 'voter fraud' cases enough that they are sick of it.
He might be given lots of time, but no support.
He may just testify on his own, with his patented form of double speak and silliness. Pass the popcorn.
If the government is involved, it's a government matter and he is legally entitled to a defense. So, do you want to see and hear about Democrats being killed or wounded all over the country or what? You people aren't thinking clearly and don't quite grasp the situation that you're all in right now and will be finding yourselves being drug in deeper and deeper as the months go on and the country begins turning on you every where in the country.
No one will stop him from putting on a defense. Quite to the contrary. But no lawyer is going to testify before Congress without congressional immunity, and actually telling the truth is outside the Trump bubble.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 01-19-2021
(01-19-2021, 09:10 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(01-19-2021, 04:29 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If the government is involved, it's a government matter and he is legally entitled to a defense.
Apparently not. No one wants to be associated with him just now. As of last night, no one was on his defense team. He apparently can't even get people to come to his going away party. Perhaps he should call on the capitol rioters again?
This is a perfect example of an overplayed hand. Books will be written.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 01-19-2021
(01-19-2021, 03:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The way I see it, one party stands for core American values and beliefs and centers more on national issues while the other mainly stands for itself, whatever it presumes to be the most popular among its groups and whatever it determines is most needed for it to win or survive at a particular time. Is Trump worse than Bumbling Biden and his token VP/princess? I don't think so myself. I think Trump was better for America than both of them put together myself. I think the Left Wing media pulled off a major stunt by taking advantage of whatever trust was left in the Democratic at a vulnerable time in American history like it did leading up to Obama's election and a lot of them are going end up dead and broke because of it this time around myself. I don't care if some American someplace does whatever it takes to get rid of some oligarch who seems to think/believe he/she is more rich and powerful than the American government and the American people. Dude, I'm one of millions of customers or one of millions of hardcore Americans who could start knocking down Verizon towers or start terminating contracts pertaining to land use and destabilize and bankrupt them tomorrow. It would only take the assassination of one rich and powerful oligarch who is broadly viewed as being above the law and the destruction of a major corporation or two broadly viewed as being the same by America to prompt a massive withdrawal and tank NASDAQ again. I see the extension of American growth and opportunity and freedom with the Trump party. I see a controlled system based on preference, the elimination of the three mentioned and a prolonging of the death with Biden's/Cheney's party. The Trump party represents American progress and what America has been about throughout the ages since its conception. The Democrats are the clingers like the Democrats have always been throughout the history of the party.
The way I see it, the rural cavalier culture and the urban roundheads both contributed mightily to the US culture. It is just that come the crisis, the conservative culture winds up yielding its most abusive Agricultural Age traits. The assumption that they will come out on top this time has no basis that I can see.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 01-19-2021
(01-19-2021, 09:10 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:Well. If you make your living in politics or off politics, I guess that you have no other choice than to go along with the Democrats and they're corporate allies/sponsors at this point. If you don't, it's different. The moment Biden takes power. Trump will be a free man who is entitled to all the rights and legal protections that you and I are entitled to as US citizens. I assume that you would prefer to live out your life and die as an American citizen, or would you prefer to speed up that process and die sooner as a Biden/Harris supporter or a Democratic supporter as America begins to turn and revolt against them?(01-19-2021, 04:29 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: If the government is involved, it's a government matter and he is legally entitled to a defense.
Apparently not. No one wants to be associated with him just now. As of last night, no one was on his defense team. He apparently can't even get people to come to his going away party. Perhaps he should call on the capitol rioters again?