(02-04-2021, 09:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-03-2021, 02:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: But you want to abolish capital. I agree that many times small business can be tougher and less beneficial to its workers. That's a good point. But it has more intangible benefits, which Marx even recognized, having to do with being connected to your work instead of alienated from it. A small owner class is a good economic segment. It is fulfilling to own a business. Companies that are too large are alienating. They also gain too much control. They can control the market, resulting in worse products, lower wages, worse working conditions, higher prices. They crush innovation and hurt the environment and the climate. Oligarchy and its wealthy class takes over the government too. It buys politicians and keeps money in politics through its political Party's actions. It concentrates wealth, thus concentrating power.

Nature, conceived as raw material only, is not a source of value; only production. Nature is an intrinsic value because it's beautiful and inspirational, and because it supports all life. It has rights. Humans do not have the right to dominate Nature and submit it only to their needs. Only to tend it. Nature is only valuable if it is recognized as spiritual. Materialism by itself destroys life. Indigenous people understand Nature; western industrial people do not, fully. I don't oppose technology and production, but let's make it eco-friendly.

I forgot to add tourism to my list of economic values (I just added it). Eco-tourism in particular is a rising big business. What physical product does tourism produce? Or are you going to reduce it to souvenirs? Certainly, our economy today is mostly services, and high tech, and fewer workers directly make industrial products. Work is more intellectual and interactive and less routine.

Well, you can stick with the service economy and high tech industries and rely on fewer workers and expanding welfare programs and paying people to do nothing other than vote to keep it all going if you like but don't be surprised if a large segment of the country rejects it and watches as your world turns on each other and falls apart.

(02-05-2021, 08:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-05-2021, 02:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Parties have not changed much. Trump has taken Republicans further to the right, and has only brought out the simmering bigotry that was there since the sixties, including from the Southern strategy and the Goldwater candidacy.

During the Gilded Age and through the FDR, Truman, Ike period, the Democrats remained supporters of Jim Crow.  They were progressive in many ways, but remained the party of the south to the Republican party of the elites.  When LBJ went for the black vote, supported the civil rights movement, supported the war on poverty, things began to shift.  It had been a conflict between the party of the elites and the party of workers, between the party of the south and the party of the north.  It shifted when the progressives became progressive on race too.

With the southern strategy, the elites and the racists came together in the same party.

For years the combination of elite money and racist votes kept the Republican unraveling party dominant.  It seems now the money and votes aren’t working.  Black Lives Matter has brought the majority firmly against racism, and the money hasn’t helped enough.  What we are seeing today is in part the worst of the racists hanging with Trump.  Black Lives Matter won.  The racists are making a big stink trying to keep themselves alive.

Many racist organizations were involved in the capitol insurrection and supporting Trump.  The reds are not so much against democracy, but for white supremacy in America and the Republican Party.  Democracy is just less important to them, an accidental casualty they believe they can work around.

Biden has a bunch of easy to hit issues: COVID, the economy, systematic racism, red violence, and global warming.  Taking action on each of them is popular enough.  The Republican Party of obstruction, of not solving problems, is on the wrong side of each problem and the problem solving mood of a crisis.  If he can make significant gains overall, and he should, he will pick up the ground he need for a clear majority in 2022.  

Racism won’t go away.  It is too long imbedded in the culture for that.  But it looks like the war between the elite and racists elements of the Republican Party will destroy both.

At least I hope so.

(02-09-2021, 11:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-09-2021, 11:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You have no dignity left at this point. I take that back, you have whatever dignity there is, whatever remains being associated with the Democratic party these days. Oh well, we'll get to see how much integrity and character that's left and how much of the Democratic party is worth saving, preserving and carrying onward vs letting go of and leaving behind to die along with most of the West.

Hmmm...

The crisis issues to me seem to be COVID, the economy, racism, red violence (which is sort of racism again) and global warming.  A trigger comes along, the government undergoes regeneracy and gets focused on solving the crisis problems.  The conservative faction which favors the status quo and thus staying with the structure that doesn't solve the problems fades.  The progressive faction which solves the problems gets to remake the culture to incorporate the solutions.  Build infrastructure.  Rinse.  Repeat with new issues.

Now you are just incapable of seeing that.  It seems silly to try to help you see it.  You have adequately demonstrated your stubborn commitment to the old perspective.  COVID doesn't seem to induce the Hiroshima class shock it takes to make people rethink their values.  They are only people after all.  So what if COVID minus the precautions causes death?  The oppression doesn't matter?  Your commitment to the old culture and obsession with violence doesn't let you see it.

But that is turning theory in a nutshell, and applying it to our current situation is clear enough.

(02-10-2021, 02:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-04-2021, 09:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-03-2021, 02:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: But you want to abolish capital. I agree that many times small business can be tougher and less beneficial to its workers. That's a good point. But it has more intangible benefits, which Marx even recognized, having to do with being connected to your work instead of alienated from it. A small owner class is a good economic segment. It is fulfilling to own a business. Companies that are too large are alienating. They also gain too much control. They can control the market, resulting in worse products, lower wages, worse working conditions, higher prices. They crush innovation and hurt the environment and the climate. Oligarchy and its wealthy class takes over the government too. It buys politicians and keeps money in politics through its political Party's actions. It concentrates wealth, thus concentrating power.

Nature, conceived as raw material only, is not a source of value; only production. Nature is an intrinsic value because it's beautiful and inspirational, and because it supports all life. It has rights. Humans do not have the right to dominate Nature and submit it only to their needs. Only to tend it. Nature is only valuable if it is recognized as spiritual. Materialism by itself destroys life. Indigenous people understand Nature; western industrial people do not, fully. I don't oppose technology and production, but let's make it eco-friendly.

I forgot to add tourism to my list of economic values (I just added it). Eco-tourism in particular is a rising big business. What physical product does tourism produce? Or are you going to reduce it to souvenirs? Certainly, our economy today is mostly services, and high tech, and fewer workers directly make industrial products. Work is more intellectual and interactive and less routine.

Well, you can stick with the service economy and high tech industries and rely on fewer workers and expanding welfare programs and paying people to do nothing other than vote to keep it all going if you like but don't be surprised if a large segment of the country rejects it and watches as your world turns on each other and falls apart.

You are part of the service economy yourself. It is just the way the economy is right now, and I don't see what economic alternatives you propose would arise if my "world" falls apart.

(02-10-2021, 04:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-10-2021, 02:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-04-2021, 09:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-03-2021, 02:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: But you want to abolish capital. I agree that many times small business can be tougher and less beneficial to its workers. That's a good point. But it has more intangible benefits, which Marx even recognized, having to do with being connected to your work instead of alienated from it. A small owner class is a good economic segment. It is fulfilling to own a business. Companies that are too large are alienating. They also gain too much control. They can control the market, resulting in worse products, lower wages, worse working conditions, higher prices. They crush innovation and hurt the environment and the climate. Oligarchy and its wealthy class takes over the government too. It buys politicians and keeps money in politics through its political Party's actions. It concentrates wealth, thus concentrating power.

Nature, conceived as raw material only, is not a source of value; only production. Nature is an intrinsic value because it's beautiful and inspirational, and because it supports all life. It has rights. Humans do not have the right to dominate Nature and submit it only to their needs. Only to tend it. Nature is only valuable if it is recognized as spiritual. Materialism by itself destroys life. Indigenous people understand Nature; western industrial people do not, fully. I don't oppose technology and production, but let's make it eco-friendly.

I forgot to add tourism to my list of economic values (I just added it). Eco-tourism in particular is a rising big business. What physical product does tourism produce? Or are you going to reduce it to souvenirs? Certainly, our economy today is mostly services, and high tech, and fewer workers directly make industrial products. Work is more intellectual and interactive and less routine.

Well, you can stick with the service economy and high tech industries and rely on fewer workers and expanding welfare programs and paying people to do nothing other than vote to keep it all going if you like but don't be surprised if a large segment of the country rejects it and watches as your world turns on each other and falls apart.

You are part of the service economy yourself. It is just the way the economy is right now, and I don't see what economic alternatives you propose would arise if my "world" falls apart.

I don't have an economic plan "B"/alternative to propose to you or anyone else associated with Democratic party today. I guess, you take advantage of all the more potent lethal drugs (illegal street drugs) that are becoming legal that should help dull the pain of a miserable death and help make living in a world controlled by foreign interest and narco regimes more tolerable. We need a place to ship PB.

(02-10-2021, 09:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-10-2021, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-05-2021, 08:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-05-2021, 02:13 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Parties have not changed much. Trump has taken Republicans further to the right, and has only brought out the simmering bigotry that was there since the sixties, including from the Southern strategy and the Goldwater candidacy.

During the Gilded Age and through the FDR, Truman, Ike period, the Democrats remained supporters of Jim Crow.  They were progressive in many ways, but remained the party of the south to the Republican party of the elites.  When LBJ went for the black vote, supported the civil rights movement, supported the war on poverty, things began to shift.  It had been a conflict between the party of the elites and the party of workers, between the party of the south and the party of the north.  It shifted when the progressives became progressive on race too.

With the southern strategy, the elites and the racists came together in the same party.

For years the combination of elite money and racist votes kept the Republican unraveling party dominant.  It seems now the money and votes aren’t working.  Black Lives Matter has brought the majority firmly against racism, and the money hasn’t helped enough.  What we are seeing today is in part the worst of the racists hanging with Trump.  Black Lives Matter won.  The racists are making a big stink trying to keep themselves alive.

Many racist organizations were involved in the capitol insurrection and supporting Trump.  The reds are not so much against democracy, but for white supremacy in America and the Republican Party.  Democracy is just less important to them, an accidental casualty they believe they can work around.

Biden has a bunch of easy to hit issues: COVID, the economy, systematic racism, red violence, and global warming.  Taking action on each of them is popular enough.  The Republican Party of obstruction, of not solving problems, is on the wrong side of each problem and the problem solving mood of a crisis.  If he can make significant gains overall, and he should, he will pick up the ground he need for a clear majority in 2022.  

Racism won’t go away.  It is too long imbedded in the culture for that.  But it looks like the war between the elite and racists elements of the Republican Party will destroy both.

At least I hope so.

I agree with all this. I also see the neo-liberal philosophy that took power with Reagan as the lynchpin that has persuaded more people to support this Republican coalition, and the power of these ideas and slogans have compelled Democrats also to compromise too much with it. Those supporting the Republican Party cling to this philosophy, and it needs to be questioned and overturned. Many people were charmed by such figures as Reagan and Trump and find it hard to let go of them. By the way I am arguing now with a friend who thinks RFK Jr. is a great American and that seems to be his basis for claiming vaccines are dangerous and should not be taken. How amazing it is how people can be so hypnotized by charming famous and powerful people.

This philosophy has many names: free-market economics, trickle-down economics, social darwinism, self-reliance, anti-welfare, supply-side, libertarian economics, etc. The political battle between the party of the elites and the party of workers (since the 1890s in the USA, mainly) is the background of the neo-liberal philosophy which backs the moneyed-elites. Reaganomics and neo-liberalism was just a new and more-thorough version, and the racial conflicts find their way into it and blend with it naturally. As you say, the racists, and those who believe the philosophy of the elite (now known as neo-liberalism or Reaganomics), came together into the same party. The 1890s and 1960s saw major shifts in party alliances, and the 1960s began a geographical shift in party support that has ended up by the year 2000 into the red and blue states and counties we know today. Some further shifting continues as we go along too, partly due to demographics.

There may be a growing split now in the Republican Party between the racists and the neo-liberals, but most Republican politicians don't seem ready to get off the Trump boat. Polls I have seen though shows the rank and file evenly-split. So we'll see what happens as the second decade of our 4T continues, and whether they sabotage each other enough to help bring the Party down.

The 4T is less than a year old and you seem to be thinking it's half way over at this point. You watched what happened about a month ago right. I assume that you know that your government responded by fortifying itself right. Now, its understandable I guess with all the wimpy liberal women with no common sense who have big mouths and the freedom to say anything bad or mean or intimidating to anyone or any group with a bonus of having a double in place to protect them from criticism and shield them from the consequences of doing wrong or making serious mistakes and so forth.

(02-10-2021, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I agree with all this. I also see the neo-liberal philosophy that took power with Reagan as the lynchpin that has persuaded more people to support this Republican coalition, and the power of these ideas and slogans have compelled Democrats also to compromise too much with it. Those supporting the Republican Party cling to this philosophy, and it needs to be questioned and overturned. Many people were charmed by such figures as Reagan and Trump and find it hard to let go of them. By the way I am arguing now with a friend who thinks RFK Jr. is a great American and that seems to be his basis for claiming vaccines are dangerous and should not be taken. How amazing it is how people can be so hypnotized by charming famous and powerful people.

This philosophy has many names: free-market economics, trickle-down economics, social darwinism, self-reliance, anti-welfare, supply-side, libertarian economics, etc. The political battle between the party of the elites and the party of workers (since the 1890s in the USA, mainly) is the background of the neo-liberal philosophy which backs the moneyed-elites. Reaganomics and neo-liberalism was just a new and more-thorough version, and the racial conflicts find their way into it and blend with it naturally. As you say, the racists, and those who believe the philosophy of the elite (now known as neo-liberalism or Reaganomics), came together into the same party. The 1890s and 1960s saw major shifts in party alliances, and the 1960s began a geographical shift in party support that has ended up by the year 2000 into the red and blue states and counties we know today. Some further shifting continues as we go along too, partly due to demographics.

There may be a growing split now in the Republican Party between the racists and the neo-liberals, but most Republican politicians don't seem ready to get off the Trump boat. Polls I have seen though shows the rank and file evenly-split. So we'll see what happens as the second decade of our 4T continues, and whether they sabotage each other enough to help bring the Party down.

(02-10-2021, 03:56 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The primary crisis issues that America cares about at this point are COVID and the economic related issues caused by COVID and getting Americas kids back to school on a regular basis. The others are mainly Democratic issues that really don't matter to most Americans these days. As far as violence, there's an issue with red and blue violence that if not properly addressed will continue to grow and get worse as partisan hacks like you and others continue prancing around patting each other on the back blowing smoke up each others asses on a regular basis.

(02-10-2021, 10:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're right, racism ain't going away because it's deeply embedded in Democratic culture and Democratic politics and there are way to many Democratic supporters making a lot of money off it these days. I mean, could the Left have won without taking full advantage of a white cop killing some black guy during an arrest and completely politicizing it. Like I said, when the day comes that you and every other mindless fool no longer have enough police to protect from the animals don't come crying to me or anyone associated with the America right because we're going to be laughing our asses off as your being attacked and being forced out of your homes.

(02-10-2021, 09:56 PM)Einzige Wrote:

(02-10-2021, 09:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The 4T is less than a year old and you seem to be thinking it's half way over at this point. You watched what happened about a month ago right. I assume that you know that your government responded by fortifying itself right. Now, its understandable I guess with all the wimpy liberal women with no common sense who have big mouths and the freedom to say anything bad or mean or intimidating to anyone or any group with a bonus of having a double in place to protect them from criticism and shield them from the consequences of doing wrong or making serious mistakes and so forth.

Lol, the 4T has been underway since '08, if not '01.

(02-11-2021, 04:23 AM)Einzige Wrote: All this is really code for "it's time to make an example of rural whites and sacrifice their wealth to the needs of Capital the way minorities have". It6just another attempt to destroy class consciousness.

(02-11-2021, 05:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 04:23 AM)Einzige Wrote: All this is really code for "it's time to make an example of rural whites and sacrifice their wealth to the needs of Capital the way minorities have". It6just another attempt to destroy class consciousness.

The focus is on COVID, racism and the environment rather than the division of wealth.  The diversity of modern problems is much wider than the capitol centric Marxist perspective.  I suspect something will be done with the division of wealth, if only because change tax policy will be necessary in this economically stretched time, but the division of wealth doesn't seem to be the central issue of this crisis.

(02-11-2021, 05:23 AM)Einzige Wrote: 90% of modern social ills are driven by Capital.

(02-11-2021, 05:23 AM)Einzige Wrote: Communism is not a method of redistributing wealth but a radical and fundamental alteration in the mode of production altogether. It does away with wealth as such.

(02-10-2021, 09:56 PM)Einzige Wrote: Lol, the 4T has been underway since '08, if not '01.

(02-11-2021, 05:36 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-10-2021, 09:56 PM)Einzige Wrote: Lol, the 4T has been underway since '08, if not '01.

Dude, you can laugh if you want but neither of them had the overall  impact of 2020. It's four score and seven plus four which isn't bad as far accuracy. Now, you may be upset but I'm going to lump you in with the quasi socialist groups associated with the blue team. I'm doing that because you'd have a better chance relating with them and converting them than you would with me or anyone associated with the Red team. I think you did a pretty good job at identifying and pointing out the differences between the blue and red team. Personally speaking, I don't mind if you trash me and trash them. You're free to do so and free to speak your mind and if you use the F word that doesn't bother me either. The Blues might get their panties all up in a bunch but who cares about them and their feelings other than themselves these days.

(02-10-2021, 10:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-10-2021, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I agree with all this. I also see the neo-liberal philosophy that took power with Reagan as the lynchpin that has persuaded more people to support this Republican coalition, and the power of these ideas and slogans have compelled Democrats also to compromise too much with it. Those supporting the Republican Party cling to this philosophy, and it needs to be questioned and overturned. Many people were charmed by such figures as Reagan and Trump and find it hard to let go of them. By the way I am arguing now with a friend who thinks RFK Jr. is a great American and that seems to be his basis for claiming vaccines are dangerous and should not be taken. How amazing it is how people can be so hypnotized by charming famous and powerful people.

This philosophy has many names: free-market economics, trickle-down economics, social darwinism, self-reliance, anti-welfare, supply-side, libertarian economics, etc. The political battle between the party of the elites and the party of workers (since the 1890s in the USA, mainly) is the background of the neo-liberal philosophy which backs the moneyed-elites. Reaganomics and neo-liberalism was just a new and more-thorough version, and the racial conflicts find their way into it and blend with it naturally. As you say, the racists, and those who believe the philosophy of the elite (now known as neo-liberalism or Reaganomics), came together into the same party. The 1890s and 1960s saw major shifts in party alliances, and the 1960s began a geographical shift in party support that has ended up by the year 2000 into the red and blue states and counties we know today. Some further shifting continues as we go along too, partly due to demographics.

There may be a growing split now in the Republican Party between the racists and the neo-liberals, but most Republican politicians don't seem ready to get off the Trump boat. Polls I have seen though shows the rank and file evenly-split. So we'll see what happens as the second decade of our 4T continues, and whether they sabotage each other enough to help bring the Party down.

You're right, racism ain't going away because it's deeply embedded in Democratic culture and Democratic politics and there are way to many Democratic supporters making a lot of money off it these days. I mean, could the Left have won without taking full advantage of a white cop killing some black guy during an arrest and completely politicizing it. Like I said, when the day comes that you and every other mindless fool no longer have enough police to protect from the animals don't come crying to me or anyone associated with the America right because we're going to be laughing our asses off as your being attacked and being forced out of your homes.

(02-11-2021, 05:23 AM)Einzige Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 05:15 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-11-2021, 04:23 AM)Einzige Wrote: All this is really code for "it's time to make an example of rural whites and sacrifice their wealth to the needs of Capital the way minorities have". It6just another attempt to destroy class consciousness.

The focus is on COVID, racism and the environment rather than the division of wealth.  The diversity of modern problems is much wider than the capitol centric Marxist perspective.  I suspect something will be done with the division of wealth, if only because change tax policy will be necessary in this economically stretched time, but the division of wealth doesn't seem to be the central issue of this crisis.

90% of modern social ills are driven by Capital.

Communism is not a method of redistributing wealth but a radical and fundamental alteration in the mode of production altogether. It does away with wealth as such.

(02-11-2021, 03:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What's the natural drive associated with Communism that Communism relies on for the system to work and succeed long term?