(01-20-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know what you mean by liberals blaming our troops for what Al Qaeda and Iranian militias were doing.

(01-21-2020, 01:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know what you mean by liberals blaming our troops for what Al Qaeda and Iranian militias were doing.

The so called liberals (blue hippie age boomers/silents) resorted/ regressed to their evil ways of old by demonizing our troops during the Iraq War like they did during the Vietnam War.

(01-21-2020, 01:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know what you mean by liberals blaming our troops for what Al Qaeda and Iranian militias were doing.

The so called liberals (blue hippie age boomers/silents) resorted/ regressed to their evil ways of old by demonizing our troops during the Iraq War like they did during the Vietnam War.

(01-20-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2020, 07:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2020, 12:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I am into theories of history.  Turnings.  Civilizations.  Ages.  But then, aren’t we all on this site?

I did see a sort of Republican involvement in the House inquiry.  It was mostly to distract from the main question and slow things down.  It wasn’t to the point or effective.  More pertinent, I saw the short form of the supposed defense.   Trump did nothing impeachable?  We want foreign states interfering with elections?  We want the White Hose not responding to subpoenas for people or documents?  I don’t care if these are crimes or not, I don’t want them.

If there is a comparable standard, can you name a few times the Democrats sought out foreign intervention in US elections?

I do believe in that the Bush 43 administration lied to justify their war in Iraq.  They just changed their story to fit the facts too many times.  They had too many oil and military people in the administration.  I am aware of partisan leanings as to what conspiracy theories one is drawn to believe, but that one isn’t close.

The 17 US intelligence agencies to 0 puts the Russian Collusion thing in the same category.

You don’t believe Trump yelled out in a room full of media to the effect of, “Hey Russia, if you are listening, please…”?

The information behind Obama being born in Kenya was really weak.  Good choice to ignore that one.  I’d like to say I made up my mind when a researcher found a birth announcement in a local Hawaii newspaper, but I had made up my mind long before.  

You might try looking at the evidence?  If evidence exists, it doesn’t fit the conspiracy theory category anymore?

I do suspect a new progressive era is coming.  Demographics.  They need to address problems at intervals.  The cyclical rhythm of politics as major parties stick with what got them in power long after they reach a point of diminishing return.  The need to react to changing technology.  The bad presidents, likely to look really bad in the history books, discrediting the old ideals.  I am too dubious about the 2020 candidates and the likely outcomes not to get my hopes too far up for the near future.  It will come.  If you are into cyclical history, you have to know that it will come.  I just am not all sure when.

On one of my other web sites, I am role playing a Star Trek character.  She is currently raising the Prime Directive.  I find myself echoing some of the stuff I say here.  The Prime Directive warns against trying to change cultures before they are ready to change.  The high technology of the Star Trek universe makes it kinda dumb not to adopt to the new science, even if accepting it does force a change.  There is a kind of balance to walk, between adapting to the available science, and wanting to remain true to yourself.  The balance is in offering the benefits of the new, while respecting the compulsion to keep what is established.  Progressive.  Conservative.  It is very possible to err in either direction.  The problem is that America is diverse enough that some areas have a greater population density, have a greater need to change.  That is a lot of the friction.

Cyclical theory ain't my cup of tea or viewed as being as high in priority compared to you either.  Me, I figured Obama had already proven his citizenship prior to entering the Democratic primary in 2008 against Hilary and therefore him proving it wasn't viewed as necessary. So, I didn't pay much attention to the Birther movement thingy back then. I was often accused of supporting it and believing it too by a bunch of foolish liberals back them. I noticed that you were busy blaming  our troops for doing the nasty stuff that Al Qaeda and the Iranian backed militia's  were largely guilty of  doing back then as well. I don't know who put all that liberal crap in your head back then, I assume that the progressive era of old has to basically collapse  and come to an end before a new progressive era begins. Of coarse, the blue boomers would have to stop clinging to the old progressive system and long held beliefs relating to it for that to have a chance to come to fruition these days.

Cyclical theory is my cup of tea. Of course, astrology is the queen of the science of cycles. It can be denied but never goes away.

I'm glad you weren't swept up in the birther movement. There are a lot of conspiracy theories swirling around that attract people both on the right and the left. I think they are all pretty much nonsense. You have to do some research into the actual facts to prove this for yourself, so I did. I believed in some of them, but now I don't. The 9-11 "truth" theory that it was an inside job engineered by Bush is one of these false theories.

I don't know what you mean by liberals blaming our troops for what Al Qaeda and Iranian militias were doing.

The previous progressive era in which blue boomers (and blue silents) were involved certainly collapsed long ago, basically in 1980 with the Reagan takeover. So there's nothing for the blue boomers today to cling to. They seem many of them to have left the fold and joined the Trump movement to make America great again. Those are the old beliefs that have to be left behind, and the new progressive era is already rising, among blue millennials and blues and greens of the other generations who kept the faith and the emerging Gen Zers too.

But without you conservatives, we liberals would have less stimulus to preach and write and argue and research and campaign and get on the ball. Where would we be without you guys to challenge us? It's more interesting to discuss things with people who disagree, and to try to portray the other side from you and correct your errors as we see them. So in that sense, we are indebted to you guys and to Trump and the near-fascist Republicans of today for getting us off our duffs.

(01-21-2020, 05:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2020, 07:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2020, 12:34 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I am into theories of history.  Turnings.  Civilizations.  Ages.  But then, aren’t we all on this site?

I did see a sort of Republican involvement in the House inquiry.  It was mostly to distract from the main question and slow things down.  It wasn’t to the point or effective.  More pertinent, I saw the short form of the supposed defense.   Trump did nothing impeachable?  We want foreign states interfering with elections?  We want the White Hose not responding to subpoenas for people or documents?  I don’t care if these are crimes or not, I don’t want them.

If there is a comparable standard, can you name a few times the Democrats sought out foreign intervention in US elections?

I do believe in that the Bush 43 administration lied to justify their war in Iraq.  They just changed their story to fit the facts too many times.  They had too many oil and military people in the administration.  I am aware of partisan leanings as to what conspiracy theories one is drawn to believe, but that one isn’t close.

The 17 US intelligence agencies to 0 puts the Russian Collusion thing in the same category.

You don’t believe Trump yelled out in a room full of media to the effect of, “Hey Russia, if you are listening, please…”?

The information behind Obama being born in Kenya was really weak.  Good choice to ignore that one.  I’d like to say I made up my mind when a researcher found a birth announcement in a local Hawaii newspaper, but I had made up my mind long before.  

You might try looking at the evidence?  If evidence exists, it doesn’t fit the conspiracy theory category anymore?

I do suspect a new progressive era is coming.  Demographics.  They need to address problems at intervals.  The cyclical rhythm of politics as major parties stick with what got them in power long after they reach a point of diminishing return.  The need to react to changing technology.  The bad presidents, likely to look really bad in the history books, discrediting the old ideals.  I am too dubious about the 2020 candidates and the likely outcomes not to get my hopes too far up for the near future.  It will come.  If you are into cyclical history, you have to know that it will come.  I just am not all sure when.

On one of my other web sites, I am role playing a Star Trek character.  She is currently raising the Prime Directive.  I find myself echoing some of the stuff I say here.  The Prime Directive warns against trying to change cultures before they are ready to change.  The high technology of the Star Trek universe makes it kinda dumb not to adopt to the new science, even if accepting it does force a change.  There is a kind of balance to walk, between adapting to the available science, and wanting to remain true to yourself.  The balance is in offering the benefits of the new, while respecting the compulsion to keep what is established.  Progressive.  Conservative.  It is very possible to err in either direction.  The problem is that America is diverse enough that some areas have a greater population density, have a greater need to change.  That is a lot of the friction.

Cyclical theory ain't my cup of tea or viewed as being as high in priority compared to you either.  Me, I figured Obama had already proven his citizenship prior to entering the Democratic primary in 2008 against Hilary and therefore him proving it wasn't viewed as necessary. So, I didn't pay much attention to the Birther movement thingy back then. I was often accused of supporting it and believing it too by a bunch of foolish liberals back them. I noticed that you were busy blaming  our troops for doing the nasty stuff that Al Qaeda and the Iranian backed militia's  were largely guilty of  doing back then as well. I don't know who put all that liberal crap in your head back then, I assume that the progressive era of old has to basically collapse  and come to an end before a new progressive era begins. Of coarse, the blue boomers would have to stop clinging to the old progressive system and long held beliefs relating to it for that to have a chance to come to fruition these days.

Cyclical theory is my cup of tea. Of course, astrology is the queen of the science of cycles. It can be denied but never goes away.

I'm glad you weren't swept up in the birther movement. There are a lot of conspiracy theories swirling around that attract people both on the right and the left. I think they are all pretty much nonsense. You have to do some research into the actual facts to prove this for yourself, so I did. I believed in some of them, but now I don't. The 9-11 "truth" theory that it was an inside job engineered by Bush is one of these false theories.

I don't know what you mean by liberals blaming our troops for what Al Qaeda and Iranian militias were doing.

The previous progressive era in which blue boomers (and blue silents) were involved certainly collapsed long ago, basically in 1980 with the Reagan takeover. So there's nothing for the blue boomers today to cling to. They seem many of them to have left the fold and joined the Trump movement to make America great again. Those are the old beliefs that have to be left behind, and the new progressive era is already rising, among blue millennials and blues and greens of the other generations who kept the faith and the emerging Gen Zers too.

But without you conservatives, we liberals would have less stimulus to preach and write and argue and research and campaign and get on the ball. Where would we be without you guys to challenge us? It's more interesting to discuss things with people who disagree, and to try to portray the other side from you and correct your errors as we see them. So in that sense, we are indebted to you guys and to Trump and the near-fascist Republicans of today for getting us off our duffs.

I'd say Astrology is primarily your cup of tea these days and cyclical history has taken a back seat to it. Hmmm...I've seen your third rate Gen Xr's and Millenials at work these days. I mean, they're ok for those who are more familiar with liberal politics related to the third world and more accustomed to barely living in third world banana republics.

(01-21-2020, 04:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know who knocked veterans of the Vietnam War. I thought they should not have gone, and I thought they should not have gone to Iraq too. But I don't remember any friends or people I knew who put them down. I know there were some people who did after the Vietnam War. But we hippie-age blue boomers and silents who protested the wars wanted to save their lives by bringing them home. And we wanted to stop the killing. War did great damage to many people who fought and were victims of it. And the supposed cause was defective, and not worth killing and deforming millions of people for.

Quote:Sure, it would have been nice if the United States could have set up a democracy in South Vietnam. Communism is not so good, although sometimes it can be reformed. But what business did we have to go invade a country half way around the world and set up their government for them by burning women, kids, houses and villages, as Arlo Guthrie put it? It was up to the Vietnamese to fight this out. And there never was any such democracy there to defend.

Quote:Much the same issue came up about Iraq. What right did we have to just go invade another country and set up their government for them? Was it our oil that was under their sand? Maybe it will turn out OK. But in the meantime, hundreds of thousands of lives were lost, and the demon of the Islamic State was released. Maybe we could have helped them with money and intelligence and supplies once the Iraqi people rose up in the Arab Spring, IF they wanted our help (as the Syrians did, and we failed to provide).

Quote:These wars are the archetype of the quagmire. The United States must avoid them in the future if it wants to keep its standing in the world. My country right or wrong, is wrong. If my country is right, it's because it allows its people to decide what is right. To fight for democracy abroad, and destroy it at home in the name of "Americans," is the road to destruction. If saying these things make me a blue hippie un-American, then I'm proud to be one.

(01-21-2020, 05:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Hmmm...I've seen your third rate Gen Xr's and Millenials at work these days. I mean, they're ok for those who are more familiar with liberal politics related to the third world and more accustomed to barely living in third world banana republics.

(01-21-2020, 04:46 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-21-2020, 01:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-20-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't know what you mean by liberals blaming our troops for what Al Qaeda and Iranian militias were doing.

The so called liberals (blue hippie age boomers/silents) resorted/ regressed to their evil ways of old by demonizing our troops during the Iraq War like they did during the Vietnam War.

I agree they demonized during and just after Vietnam, but they properly went after the administration Republicans for lying about the evidence for the causes of the Iraq war.   As usual. you are lying or ignorant, I am not sure which.

(01-22-2020, 11:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You don't remember all the demonizing of American troops that went on back then. You don't remember the amount of liberal posters and liberal supporters who ended up being lost over it back then. I do because I was there taking them to task and openly trashing them (treating them like scumbags) right in front of the eyes of the entire Democratic population that existed at the time. Hint...I don't treat liberal scumbags the same way as I treated the decent Democrats and the decent Democrats sided with me which forced you and others to change their ways. I'm not dreaming or role playing (pretending to be someone other than myself) or playing senseless political games.

(01-21-2020, 05:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Astrology and cycle theories are all connected.

The conservative ideology today is making America a banana republic again.

(01-22-2020, 12:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-22-2020, 11:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You don't remember all the demonizing of American troops that went on back then. You don't remember the amount of liberal posters and liberal supporters who ended up being lost over it back then. I do because I was there taking them to task and openly trashing them (treating them like scumbags) right in front of the eyes of the entire Democratic population that existed at the time. Hint...I don't treat liberal scumbags the same way as I treated the decent Democrats and the decent Democrats sided with me which forced you and others to change their ways. I'm not dreaming or role playing (pretending to be someone other than myself) or playing senseless political games.

Treating people like skumbags does sound like you.  You do seem to enjoy it.  I don’t doubt you could find people you consider scumbags if you looked for them.  I just found more people who were concerned with the administration lying about cause for war.  The destabilization of the Middle East by the conservative administration was problematic.  Bush 43's alliance between military neo cons, oil interests and Evangelicals on top of the unraveling memes was toxic.  That was of far more interest to me that being obsessed with treating people like scumbags.  There were real scumbags to pick on.

As a devout agnostic, I do find it ironic that many conservatives embrace religious thought in America but demonize it it in the Middle East.  It is quite obvious that the Capitalist and Communist systems were exploiting the oil and that anyone for the people would devalue those systems.  They favored the elites rather than the locals.  Sticking with the Agricultural Age autocratic values was the option left, even if they have the same flaw.  If you don’t include the Enlightenment approach such as human rights, checks and balances and real multiple party elections, there is no check on the power of the elites.  I don’t consider Agricultural Age values a good choice in modern times, but what choice do they have?  Well, those who wished more Western values immigrated to the West.  That is a valid choice, but it leaves those sticking with religious old values in charge back in the Middle East.

***

I consider Fantasy Role Play to be another form of fiction and literature.  At center it is a shared daydream.  Most people watch TV, plays, movies and other traditional forms.  I prefer to be more active, to create characters, to effect the plot.  Thus, I watch little TV, see few movies.  Others choose otherwise.

(01-22-2020, 02:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-22-2020, 12:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-22-2020, 11:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You don't remember all the demonizing of American troops that went on back then. You don't remember the amount of liberal posters and liberal supporters who ended up being lost over it back then. I do because I was there taking them to task and openly trashing them (treating them like scumbags) right in front of the eyes of the entire Democratic population that existed at the time. Hint...I don't treat liberal scumbags the same way as I treated the decent Democrats and the decent Democrats sided with me which forced you and others to change their ways. I'm not dreaming or role playing (pretending to be someone other than myself) or playing senseless political games.

Treating people like skumbags does sound like you.  You do seem to enjoy it.  I don’t doubt you could find people you consider scumbags if you looked for them.  I just found more people who were concerned with the administration lying about cause for war.  The destabilization of the Middle East by the conservative administration was problematic.  Bush 43's alliance between military neo cons, oil interests and Evangelicals on top of the unraveling memes was toxic.  That was of far more interest to me that being obsessed with treating people like scumbags.  There were real scumbags to pick on.

As a devout agnostic, I do find it ironic that many conservatives embrace religious thought in America but demonize it it in the Middle East.  It is quite obvious that the Capitalist and Communist systems were exploiting the oil and that anyone for the people would devalue those systems.  They favored the elites rather than the locals.  Sticking with the Agricultural Age autocratic values was the option left, even if they have the same flaw.  If you don’t include the Enlightenment approach such as human rights, checks and balances and real multiple party elections, there is no check on the power of the elites.  I don’t consider Agricultural Age values a good choice in modern times, but what choice do they have?  Well, those who wished more Western values immigrated to the West.  That is a valid choice, but it leaves those sticking with religious old values in charge back in the Middle East.

***

I consider Fantasy Role Play to be another form of fiction and literature.  At center it is a shared daydream.  Most people watch TV, plays, movies and other traditional forms.  I prefer to be more active, to create characters, to effect the plot.  Thus, I watch little TV, see few movies.  Others choose otherwise.

As I recall, we weren't fighting over the cause during the war. We were fighting over what was going on with our troops during the war and what was true and false related to them and  their conduct. I was fighting with you about lying to me about the conduct and motives of American sons and daughter, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers who were over there that you didn't know at the time. Yes, I treated you the same as any other liberal scumbag who was into doing it at the time. You were a big boy who making his own decisions and expressing his beliefs and views of our troops  at the time right. Now, you can lie to your own and lie to yourself but lying to me could be self damaging and even self damning at times. I've already proved this.

Quote:Hint....American conservatives/liberals aren't into state sponsored  religious persecution or into  banning peoples religious freedom like the old world that their ancestors left. So, chew on that.  Does an American liberal really give a shit if Omar is black and happens to be  a Muslim these days. Does Omar understand that classical liberalism teaches that neither of them matter or serve as a shield to protect her or her religious beliefs or racist beliefs  from good old fashioned American criticism or preventing her from getting into trouble with American law enforcement officials these days.

(01-22-2020, 02:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As I recall, we weren't fighting over the cause during the war. We were fighting over what was going on with our troops during the war and what was true and false related to them and  their conduct. I was fighting with you about lying to me about the conduct and motives of American sons and daughter, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers who were over there that you didn't know at the time. Yes, I treated you the same as any other liberal scumbag who was into doing it at the time. You were a big boy who making his own decisions and expressing his beliefs and views of our troops  at the time right. Now, you can lie to your own and lie to yourself but lying to me could be self damaging and even self damning at times. I've already proved this.

(01-22-2020, 11:06 PM)Bob Butler 54 (in blue) Wrote:

(01-22-2020, 02:06 PM)Classic-Xer (in green) Wrote: As I recall, we weren't fighting over the cause during the war. We were fighting over what was going on with our troops during the war and what was true and false related to them and  their conduct. I was fighting with you about lying to me about the conduct and motives of American sons and daughter, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers who were over there that you didn't know at the time. Yes, I treated you the same as any other liberal scumbag who was into doing it at the time. You were a big boy who making his own decisions and expressing his beliefs and views of our troops  at the time right. Now, you can lie to your own and lie to yourself but lying to me could be self damaging and even self damning at times. I've already proved this.

What I remember from the old days…

Back on September 12, 2001, Bush 43 put out his plan.  He was going to respond militarily.  He was not going to look at the underlying causes for the conflict, the reasons why the incident took place.  Just hearing that much, I predicted on the T4T site of the time that he was going to fail.   I hadn’t figured out the strategy yet.  It was too soon.  He likely did not have a firm strategy yet.  But I predicted he was going to fail.

Months later, the Pentagon had a theory.  You need a certain ratio to succeed in an insurgent war of occupation, a sort of necessity for changing a culture by force.  Bush 43 thought his culture obviously superior, and denied the ratio of troops.  He also remembered his father’s failure, and was trying not to raise taxes, and thus he was fighting a limited war with limited forces.  Thus, he denied the pentagon call for more troops.

Two incidents come to mind.  In one, a sniper fired at American troops from a village.  The Americans called in artillery fire on the village.  Another time a wedding was being held.  The locals celebrated by firing their weapons in the air.  The Americans again responded with artillery fire.

Much later, the Americans switched strategy.  As in Vietnam, they had been counting victory by the body count.  The switched to winning hearts and minds.  They segregated Sunni and Shite, defended both, and the bad guys became those who left their enclaves to attack their opposites.  It seemed a worthy switch in tactics.  It was too late, and they hadn’t enough boots on the ground, and they had made enemies using artillery on too many people.

Quote:There is, I suppose, a difference between criticizing a theory, and demonizing the leader who does not believe in the correct theory.  I am a theorizer.  You (Classic X'er) are a demonizer.  I suppose if you are a people person, not a theorizer, it is possible to mistake criticism of the theory for demonizing of the person.  But I am a theorizer.  I’m into facts, reason, objective truth.

I do not so much blame the troops as the leaders for using bad theories, bad tactics.  That is just the way I approach things.  It takes all types.  I just happen to be a INTP.  This may be why my posts include a theory on why I hold my opinion, why your posts feature demonization of individuals.  Your posts are pretty much fact, reason and truth free.  Imagination and lies are sufficient to demonize.  If you demonize enough, make the other guy look thoroughly bad, it would seem from a people person’s perspective you might have done your job.

Quote:I am more into perspective that if you are running on a bad theory, you are going to fail spectacularly. 


Thus we remember the long ago time different.  I still hold by the theories of the time.  The big mistake was I believed Vietnam had proven ‘cut and run’ was a better approach that ‘stay the course’.  Bush 43’s war seemed to show ‘stay the course’ could work if you used the correct tactics from the beginning and were willing to pay the costs in gold, iron and blood.  It seemed that the USA was not so willing.  We have been very reluctant to commit boots on the ground since.

Quote:(you) to Classic X'er --
This may be in part a difference between Agricultural Age autocratic thinking and Industrial Age scientific.  From my perspective, it is necessary to get the theory right.  From your perspective, you stick to your beliefs, dogma, tribe and demonization.  Thus, we are to a great degree talking past one another.  Your imaginative creativity just wings around without meaning a lot.

(01-22-2020, 12:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-21-2020, 05:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Astrology and cycle theories are all connected.

The conservative ideology today is making America a banana republic again.

Yes, they both seem to be directly  connected to you. Dude, I don't live in a liberal run banana republic like St.Paul or Minneapolis. I live in an American suburb that has no interest in ending up being like either of them. We have to remind the Democratic politicians that they could easily be directly challenged and replaced by any of us if they forget where they live and get to far out of line with our values and start acting more like city liberals than Democrats these days. You see, the greatest threat to them are the private sectors who aren't interested in doing jobs these days. Yes, you run the risk of losing talent to us like you have been doing for years and are seeing the results of these days.

(01-24-2020, 12:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trickle down economics appeals to you guys because you hate people of color coming into our country. You think blacks and browns are lazy and take your tax money, and that Democrats depend on them for their positions in government. But the brown kitty cats are out of the bag. There are lots more hispanics in our country now, and they are turning the southwest blue because they resent what Trump does to their fellow hispanics: treat honest people seeking opportunity in America like animals, starving them, putting them in cages and taking them off the street like nazis and putting them in jail. Once Arizona and then Texas turns blue, your game will be up for good.

(01-24-2020, 01:09 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-24-2020, 12:05 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trickle down economics appeals to you guys because you hate people of color coming into our country. You think blacks and browns are lazy and take your tax money, and that Democrats depend on them for their positions in government. But the brown kitty cats are out of the bag. There are lots more hispanics in our country now, and they are turning the southwest blue because they resent what Trump does to their fellow hispanics: treat honest people seeking opportunity in America like animals, starving them, putting them in cages and taking them off the street like nazis and putting them in jail. Once Arizona and then Texas turns blue, your game will be up for good.

I wouldn't say Classic pushes the racist element of conservative thought, but it does clearly exist.  It does form part of the small government - low taxes - low domestic services aspect of conservative policy that so much hurt the generations that came of age in the unraveling and 'crisis' times.  (The crisis is in quotes as the issues involved, the Iraq war and the Great Recession, did not cause a regeneracy.)  Some people hate, therefore they made America not so great to hurt those they hated.  They just hit a lot of people, not just minorities.  They chose a wide angle weapon.

(01-22-2020, 12:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I don't live in a liberal run banana republic like St.Paul or Minneapolis. I live in an American suburb that has no interest in ending up being like either of them. We have to remind the Democratic politicians that they could easily be directly challenged and replaced by any of us if they forget where they live and get to far out of line with our values and start acting more like city liberals than Democrats these days. You see, the greatest threat to them are the private sectors who aren't interested in doing jobs these days. Yes, you run the risk of losing talent to us like you have been doing for years and are seeing the results of these days.

(01-24-2020, 11:23 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-22-2020, 12:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I don't live in a liberal run banana republic like St.Paul or Minneapolis. I live in an American suburb that has no interest in ending up being like either of them. We have to remind the Democratic politicians that they could easily be directly challenged and replaced by any of us if they forget where they live and get to far out of line with our values and start acting more like city liberals than Democrats these days. You see, the greatest threat to them are the private sectors who aren't interested in doing jobs these days. Yes, you run the risk of losing talent to us like you have been doing for years and are seeing the results of these days.

Minneapolis-St. Paul sounds like one of the most livable urban areas in America. I saw a measure of social conditions by state, and Minnesota was toward the top. I looked at statewide credit ratings for residents, and Minnesota was near the top (and I used credit ratings as measures of people coping with economic reality. People more often end up in trouble with credit because of inability to meet taxes, medical bills, utility costs, and the like than because they eat out too much or splurge on vacations and wardrobes. I suggested that if one graduated from the University of Southern Illinois and got a chance to sign a local contract to be a schoolteacher in Mississippi (not surprisingly toward the bottom on economic and social reality) or Minnesota but dreaded Minnesota winters -- accept the winters because the district in which one teaches is more likely to have the means (local tax revenues) with which to supply a school and pay an adequate salary. The greater Twin Cities are a big part of the population of Minnesota, so they figure big. Michigan would do similarly well in its social metrics as Minnesota if it had the Twin Cities instead of the dump that is Detroit.

One thing that I have noticed about Suburbia: it may have begun with some very rural characteristics, but it has become increasingly urban. The older suburbs, mostly forming just after the Second World War, were designed with infrastructure such as sewers and streets suited for surviving the original owners (largely returning GI veterans). The expected life of such infrastructure is over, so you can draw your own conclusions of what sort of costs will arise in replacing such infrastructure. If you want to see what happens when a community is unable to replace or renovate such infrastructure, then look at Detroit as the wave of a very bleak urban future. Yuck!

The tiny suburban houses -- 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, 1-car garage -- from the late 1940's are much out of vogue; many of those have been demolished with large apartment complexes replacing them. Big apartment complexes generate more traffic than the inefficient little bungalows that used to be there, so that creates traffic jams that require widening of once-quiet, verdant, narrow streets.  And where do people in those apartment complexes shop? You guessed it -- big box stores. Populations of many suburbs are becoming more ethnically and economically diverse -- just as in the cities that they used to be distinct from.  

...Sometimes I think myself a dinosaur because I tolerate obsolete technology (I was that way even in good times) because it is still serviceable. The little mathematical exercise of subtracting my age from my birth-year gives a time in the 1890's -- the horse-and-buggy era. But I can see indelible, irreversible trends, one of which is that Suburbia is becoming legitimately urban -- and the suburban politics of such a place as Orange County, California will never again be what they were in the 1970's... again. So it is with Will County, Illinois; Westchester County, New York; Bucks County, Pennsylvania; Eaton County, Michigan; or Montgomery County, Maryland.  St. Louis County, Missouri (not to be confused with the dump that is the city of St. Louis, Misery) is becoming an urban dump in its own right. Is that progress? The Vietnamese-Americans and Mexican-Americans taking over Orange County, California in economics and politics see their presence as progress for themselves. That's nothing to judge. 

The tendency is in earlier stages in such places as Cobb County, Georgia; Hamilton County, Indiana; Collin County, Texas; Livingston County, Michigan... and  I would guess Dakota, Carver, Anoka, and Washington Counties in Minnesota. As Suburbia becomes urban it needs bus lines to get those apartment dwellers who live "twelve-in-one-room in A-may-ree-kah" (reference to West Side Story) on the minimum wage to their jobs, wider roads and more parks that require the demolition of housing to accommodate, big expenditures on expanding school buildings and hospitals, let alone rehabilitating or building new sewers and power lines. Such is not deterioration of your world; it is simply change beyond our ability to stop or really judge. Suburbia simply is losing its old rural characteristics and becoming urban -- even in politics. You can run from the tendency of urban characteristics in Suburbia and even hide by going to isolated rural areas that people are leaving out of economic despair as the jobs vanish. If the economic order necessitates very badly-paid people with shaky employment, then you will need welfare.

You cannot escape some inevitable and irreversible trends. You adapt or you suffer. What is inevitable and irreversible is that America is becoming less stereotypical in its ethnic mix, that the population is increasing as a whole, and that additions to cultural life will accrete to what we already have (after some culling of junk). The finely-tuned brain can create marvels of great value out of a small amount of material investment, and such could be what makes America tolerable when it has 400 million people. America has a tendency to reject ethical and intellectual failure in politics, especially the broken promises, corruption, and anti-intellectualism of someone so awful as Trump. You may loathe Obama (even if not out of racism), but I happen to like political figures who eschew demagoguery, avoid corruption, treat victims of misfortune not their cause with kindness, prefer education and rational processes to gut feelings, recognize the validity of tradition as a stopgap when things go bad, and see integrity as a tool instead of an impediment. Donald Trump may have said that countries ruled by black people inevitably become $#!+holes even if they are America...

Guess what? Plenty of conservatives are beginning to recognize that Obama was a good President except perhaps for being a bit too 'liberal'.