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+---- Thread: The Partisan Divide on Issues (/thread-3410.html)
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RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 05-20-2021
(05-17-2021, 08:03 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:He's just part of the problem for the lowly partisan hacks like you these days. Trump has 70 some million supporters right now. Liz Chaney was removed from her leadership position because Donald Trump still has the support of the vast majority of the Republican base today. Trump knows plenty of rich Americans who have no interest in Marxism. He'll most likely gain several million more by the next election as Biden/Harris and the clueless Democrats continue dividing the country and continue fucking up everything and making matters worse for Americans. Matt Gaetz always reminded me of John Edwards. As I recall, you were pretty fond of John Edwards back in the day.(05-17-2021, 01:52 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It feels to me like things are coming to a head again as they have not for a while. Georgia and New York are targeting Trump. The DC courts are circling Barr and his so called Justice Department. Florida is holding meetings where the state law gives the governor the right to block extradition. They are circling Gaetz too. I have a feeling that we will some day move from ‘it is in the works’ to ‘it is happening.’
Can you run a presidential campaign while not daring to leave Florida?
Eugene Debs got 914,191 votes (3.41% of the popular vote) in 1920 despite being in jail. The 3.41% is unusually high for a Third Party nominee. Trump does have his cult, and he has plenty of local proxies. He can appear by closed-circuit television anywhere he wants, as at (presumably right-wing) churches.
More troublesome is that Democrats have found how to defeat him. Show him lying. Show him egging on Putschists. Show the ugly stats of COVID-19.
As for Matt Gaetz -- the facts are circling him like vultures around a dying creature.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 05-20-2021
(05-20-2021, 01:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: YOU DESERVE TO LIVE/DIE IN A COUNTRY WITH A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS THE RIGHT TO GO AFTER WHOEVER OR WHATEVER GROUP THREATENS IT OR WHOEVER OR WHATEVER GROUP IT DOESN'T LIKE OR IT CAN NO LONGER SUPPORT OR FOR WHATEVER REASON.
We started out after the revolution believing the Bill of Rights was a federal guarantee that would be enforced by the states, and applied to white male protestant land owners. We've been expanding the ideas of equality, democracy and human rights since. Still, today, one party is trying to champion one race while oppressing among others blacks, Latinos, Native Americans and women. Naturally, the resentment these Acirema folk have built up over the years is finally biting them where it hurts. The party favoring Acirema over America is falling apart.
What do you expect in a crisis?
If you can't see how Acirema has been treating and oppressing certain groups for centuries, you will be unable to do much but rant on the sidelines.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 05-20-2021
(05-19-2021, 07:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-17-2021, 04:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(05-17-2021, 01:52 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It feels to me like things are coming to a head again as they have not for a while. Georgia and New York are targeting Trump. The DC courts are circling Barr and his so called Justice Department. Florida is holding meetings where the state law gives the governor the right to block extradition. They are circling Gaetz too. I have a feeling that we will some day move from ‘it is in the works’ to ‘it is happening.’
Can you run a presidential campaign while not daring to leave Florida?
It would be popcorn worthy for the governor of one state to block extradition to another on any felony case -- and that's where these charges lead. Even the RW SCOTUS will choke on that one, assuming certiorari of course. If the target is Trump, I doubt they can dodge it on any basis, so assume that yes, they will get dragged into it. Of course, the Southern District of New York may bring a Federal case, and no governor can block that, so that may be better: drag him to NY to face a Federal trial, then hit him with the state cases once he's there.
It's your way of thinking (tribal thinking) that's going to end with a lot of leftists and so called Democrats being targeted and eliminated all over the country. Dave, with me, you've pretty met your match because I can change, slide morality and the rule of law off to the side and embrace, impose and apply your way of thinking too. I never thought that I would be here to see the day when an older communist like you and some of the others embrace and go along with fascism. I assume that your recent philosophical/Ideological about face or turn to fascism has something to do with necessity at this point.
Where's the Fascism? Seeing Trump in jail for his obvious crimes isn't Fascism. It's justice. Trump may pull it off, and escape yet again. If he does, then he does. If won't be right, but the rule of law is pretty strict. The burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 05-20-2021
(05-20-2021, 02:55 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-17-2021, 08:03 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:(05-17-2021, 01:52 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It feels to me like things are coming to a head again as they have not for a while. Georgia and New York are targeting Trump. The DC courts are circling Barr and his so called Justice Department. Florida is holding meetings where the state law gives the governor the right to block extradition. They are circling Gaetz too. I have a feeling that we will some day move from ‘it is in the works’ to ‘it is happening.’
Can you run a presidential campaign while not daring to leave Florida?
Eugene Debs got 914,191 votes (3.41% of the popular vote) in 1920 despite being in jail. The 3.41% is unusually high for a Third Party nominee. Trump does have his cult, and he has plenty of local proxies. He can appear by closed-circuit television anywhere he wants, as at (presumably right-wing) churches.
More troublesome is that Democrats have found how to defeat him. Show him lying. Show him egging on Putschists. Show the ugly stats of COVID-19.
As for Matt Gaetz -- the facts are circling him like vultures around a dying creature.
He's just part of the problem for the lowly partisan hacks like you these days.
Matt Gaetz is but one of 435 Congressional representatives, and I cannot predict that he will be indicted and convicted (if he is convicted, he will be expelled from Congress). As for Trump, he still is a problem for American political life.
Quote:Trump has 70 some million supporters right now.
Yes, I know -- 74 million people voted for that horrible man. A recent poll suggested that he would get only 36% of the popular vote in a rematch with Joe Biden. That is solid support but that is near the low end in a Presidential election -- territory of Alf Landon, Barry Goldwater, and George McGovern. Maybe he could do a bit better than that. Sure it is only 48-36, but it will be far harder for Trump to gain 11% between now and November 2024. This is of course after the Capitol Putsch, and I have little doubt that voters will remember the Putsch... and condemn Republicans who soiled themselves.
Extending the term of a Leader who lost an election? Robert Mugabe did that.
Yes, I know -- Trump supporters are more fervent in their belief, but that is how things go with extremists either Left or Right. I also expect about 6.4% of people between ages 55 and 90, who are about 5% more R than D to have died off between November 2020 and November 2024 and be stricken from the voting rolls (nobody really opposes getting dead people off the voter rolls, does he?) while new voters much more D than R enter the electorate before November 2024.
Worker pay has been going up, which is especially important to younger workers as voters, and they are more likely to thank Biden than Republicans.
Quote:Liz Chaney was removed from her leadership position because Donald Trump still has the support of the vast majority of the Republican base today.
I'm not predicting a continuance of a threadbare D majority in the House as of January 3, 2023, but slight as the D majority is now and the usual result in a midterm is against the President's Party, the Republican Party has done much that is grossly discreditable. The shadow of Donald Trump may still give us the feeling of a "six-year itch" involving former President Trump that would have happened otherwise (that is, if we still had free elections, which is something that would not be so certain had Trump's violent supporters succeeded at extending a failed term as President.
Quote:Trump knows plenty of rich Americans who have no interest in Marxism.
It is safe to assume that most of America's super-rich tycoons, executives, and big landowners (giant farms and large apartment complexes) are so reactionary that they would support a Pinochet-like ideologue who gives them super-cheap labor that has no institutional protection (because labor unions are banned or employers have no obligation to recognize them) obliged to pay monopoly prices for everything from food to medicine and rent. If that and some humane-sounding version of Marxism are the choices, then I will go with Marxism, if necessary from exile.
The problem is that many of those rich Americans would thrive under fascism while the vast majority of Americans would either suffer or die.
Admit it, Classic X'er: Donald Trump was a political disaster and an affront to the moral values of most of us. We needed better and got something hideous.
Quote:He'll most likely gain several million more by the next election as Biden/Harris and the clueless Democrats continue dividing the country and continue f---ing up everything and making matters worse for Americans.
So how did things get better under Trump? Speaking of clueless, this man had people tear-gassed so that he could display a Bible that he manifestly neither reads nor heeds in front of a church that he does not attend. While he was President, we saw the initial stages of a secret police that drove vans with US flags and Trump banners. There was no name like Cheka, Ovra, Gestapo, NKVD, KGB, Stasi, Tontons Macoutes, SAVAK, BOSS, Securitate, or Mukhabarat, but the pattern was being set.
To spoof Benjamin Franklin, those who would sacrifice their basic liberties for economic gain will get neither liberty nor economic gain. That is a good case against fascism, Nazism, and Ku Kluxism on the Right or Marxism-Leninism and for a time Ba'athism on the Left. (The Ba'athism of Satan Hussein and of Assad pere and fils in Syria have become fascism even if they were once revolutionary-leftist).
Quote:Matt Gaetz always reminded me of John Edwards. As I recall, you were pretty fond of John Edwards back in the day.
On ideology. Once he was shown to have cheated on his wife I changed my tune. I thought that Edwards would be able to get away with far more and more fundamental change in American life than Obama. In 2008 that change seemed vital. After Trump that change is again vital to the preservation of liberty, prosperity, and human hope.
I disliked Donald Trump even when he was a young man.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 05-20-2021
Archie Bunker represented more Americans that we may have realized. One of them is Classic Xer. When I hear the Bunkers sing "Didn't need no welfare states. Everybody pulls his weight" I think of you, Classic. The classic Republican philosophy indeed.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 05-20-2021
Can states block federal extradition?
Consider that the FBI typically charges its quarry with an offense for which people rarely get convicted: interstate flight to evade prosecution. The FBI usually drops that federal charge because the state charges such as murder, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, or even grand theft auto are more consequential.
There is no escaping IRS charges for tax fraud. States cannot block an IRS investigation.
The US Postal Service catches a surprising number of offenders on mail fraud, wire fraud, and bank fraud. I would suspect that the largest number of white-collar offenders in the federal penal system were convicted of mail fraud, wire fraud, or bank fraud. Almost any scam involves a violation of mail fraud, wire fraud, or bank fraud.
Once one is in federal custody, the state government can no longer protect one. State officials cannot protect anyone from an IRS audit, let alone charges of just about anything. If the Feds get their hands on the former President, then the Feds can decide where he is tried. It could be Georgia for electoral fraud (which would involve wire fraud due to the phone call) or New York for various tax offenses.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 05-20-2021
(05-20-2021, 01:48 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can states block federal extradition?
Consider that the FBI typically charges its quarry with an offense for which people rarely get convicted: interstate flight to evade prosecution. The FBI usually drops that federal charge because the state charges such as murder, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, or even grand theft auto are more consequential.
There is no escaping IRS charges for tax fraud. States cannot block an IRS investigation.
The US Postal Service catches a surprising number of offenders on mail fraud, wire fraud, and bank fraud. I would suspect that the largest number of white-collar offenders in the federal penal system were convicted of mail fraud, wire fraud, or bank fraud. Almost any scam involves a violation of mail fraud, wire fraud, or bank fraud.
Once one is in federal custody, the state government can no longer protect one. State officials cannot protect anyone from an IRS audit, let alone charges of just about anything. If the Feds get their hands on the former President, then the Feds can decide where he is tried. It could be Georgia for electoral fraud (which would involve wire fraud due to the phone call) or New York for various tax offenses.
It's notable that the NY State Attorney General joined an NYC case in progress, and the District Attorney is happy about that. There may be some collaboration, or it could just be intended to avoid one party granting immunity to person A, when the other entity needs to have him or her on the hot seat. Prior to the collaboration, the state was only pursing civil penalties. Not so now.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 05-20-2021
Many crooks fail to recognize how pervasive the Postal Inspection Service is. It has jurisdiction over mail fraud, wire fraud, and bank fraud, truly related offenses that one practically must do to commit many scams. It could in theory involve electoral fraud... and as I see it, the attempt by Donald Trump to get the Georgia Secretary of State to nullify an electoral result looks like a violation of the statute against wire fraud for use of a telephone in an attempt to commit a fraud.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 05-21-2021
(05-20-2021, 03:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:Acerima? That's clever. You're positioning yourself to be one of those who are unable to do much but rant on the sidelines and watch in horror as Democratic related institutions implode and the Marxists and their racist tribes take advantage of the situation for as long as they can which may be a long time or forever and the rest of ones life depending on how old the person is at the time. Does that sound like the Acerima you mentioned? If so, we are same page and tend to think the same way and we have a similar understanding of what happens during 4T's and the losers of 4T's.(05-20-2021, 01:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: YOU DESERVE TO LIVE/DIE IN A COUNTRY WITH A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS THE RIGHT TO GO AFTER WHOEVER OR WHATEVER GROUP THREATENS IT OR WHOEVER OR WHATEVER GROUP IT DOESN'T LIKE OR IT CAN NO LONGER SUPPORT OR FOR WHATEVER REASON.
We started out after the revolution believing the Bill of Rights was a federal guarantee that would be enforced by the states, and applied to white male protestant land owners. We've been expanding the ideas of equality, democracy and human rights since. Still, today, one party is trying to champion one race while oppressing among others blacks, Latinos, Native Americans and women. Naturally, the resentment these Acirema folk have built up over the years is finally biting them where it hurts. The party favoring Acirema over America is falling apart.
What do you expect in a crisis?
If you can't see how Acirema has been treating and oppressing certain groups for centuries, you will be unable to do much but rant on the sidelines.
Dude, you're the privileged white Democrat that the Democratic related ghetto slugs and derelicts are being taught or have already been taught/indoctrinated to hate by the Democratic related Marxist dude. Oh, and it won't be long before you are funding it as part of the basic Democratic related curriculum. As you say, Acerima is fucked up. It's values are inconsistent and all it's really doing is pretty much screwing itself over at this point. I mean bumbling Biden killed ten thousand union jobs with a stroke of a pen on day one. Oh sure, Acerima can count on each other to band together and show up for pay day as we've seen recently.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 05-21-2021
(05-20-2021, 05:56 PM)David Horn Wrote:Is she a partisan political hack like you guys? Is there evidence of it within the public realm that can be used against her and the state she represents during a lawsuit. I'm glad to see the rule of law no longer matters to those on the Left. It's going to make the elimination of those on the Left much easier. So, I hope you don't bitch about one of us having the same power as her and the freedom to use public resources as a political tool/weapon against people like you and her either. Oh, now that fascism is acceptable to you and since you're now related to it and currently supporting it, does it really matter if we are fascists or not at this point? You do understand that you are supporting fascism and you do understand that you are more likely going to be harmed or be killed one way or another because of your association with it today.(05-20-2021, 01:48 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can states block federal extradition?
Consider that the FBI typically charges its quarry with an offense for which people rarely get convicted: interstate flight to evade prosecution. The FBI usually drops that federal charge because the state charges such as murder, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, or even grand theft auto are more consequential.
There is no escaping IRS charges for tax fraud. States cannot block an IRS investigation.
The US Postal Service catches a surprising number of offenders on mail fraud, wire fraud, and bank fraud. I would suspect that the largest number of white-collar offenders in the federal penal system were convicted of mail fraud, wire fraud, or bank fraud. Almost any scam involves a violation of mail fraud, wire fraud, or bank fraud.
Once one is in federal custody, the state government can no longer protect one. State officials cannot protect anyone from an IRS audit, let alone charges of just about anything. If the Feds get their hands on the former President, then the Feds can decide where he is tried. It could be Georgia for electoral fraud (which would involve wire fraud due to the phone call) or New York for various tax offenses.
It's notable that the NY State Attorney General joined an NYC case in progress, and the District Attorney is happy about that. There may be some collaboration, or it could just be intended to avoid one party granting immunity to person A, when the other entity needs to have him or her on the hot seat. Prior to the collaboration, the state was only pursing civil penalties. Not so now.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Einzige - 05-21-2021
(05-21-2021, 01:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Democratic related Marxist dude.You are
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RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 05-21-2021
(05-21-2021, 02:04 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-20-2021, 05:56 PM)David Horn Wrote: It's notable that the NY State Attorney General joined an NYC case in progress, and the District Attorney is happy about that. There may be some collaboration, or it could just be intended to avoid one party granting immunity to person A, when the other entity needs to have him or her on the hot seat. Prior to the collaboration, the state was only pursing civil penalties. Not so now.
Is she a partisan political hack like you guys? Is there evidence of it within the public realm that can be used against her and the state she represents during a lawsuit. I'm glad to see the rule of law no longer matters to those on the Left. It's going to make the elimination of those on the Left much easier. So, I hope you don't bitch about one of us having the same power as her and the freedom to use public resources as a political tool/weapon against people like you and her either. Oh, now that fascism is acceptable to you and since you're now related to it and currently supporting it, does it really matter if we are fascists or not at this point? You do understand that you are supporting fascism and you do understand that you are more likely going to be harmed or be killed one way or another because of your association with it today.
You're long on accusations and short on evidence. Even though you guys packed the entire Federal judiciary with RW ideologues, I doubt you'll be able to run a pogrom effectively. You need the acquiescence of the majority, when they are the targets. Don't hold your breath.
BTW, I'm old, but I've been in a war. I know how to survive. How about you?
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 05-21-2021
(05-21-2021, 02:04 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-20-2021, 05:56 PM)David Horn Wrote:(05-20-2021, 01:48 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Can states block federal extradition?
Consider that the FBI typically charges its quarry with an offense for which people rarely get convicted: interstate flight to evade prosecution. The FBI usually drops that federal charge because the state charges such as murder, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, or even grand theft auto are more consequential.
There is no escaping IRS charges for tax fraud. States cannot block an IRS investigation.
The US Postal Service catches a surprising number of offenders on mail fraud, wire fraud, and bank fraud. I would suspect that the largest number of white-collar offenders in the federal penal system were convicted of mail fraud, wire fraud, or bank fraud. Almost any scam involves a violation of mail fraud, wire fraud, or bank fraud.
Once one is in federal custody, the state government can no longer protect one. State officials cannot protect anyone from an IRS audit, let alone federal charges of just about anything. If the Feds get their hands on the former President, then the Feds can decide where he is tried. It could be Georgia for electoral fraud (which would involve wire fraud due to the phone call) or New York for various tax offenses.
It's notable that the NY State Attorney General joined an NYC case in progress, and the District Attorney is happy about that. There may be some collaboration, or it could just be intended to avoid one party granting immunity to person A, when the other entity needs to have him or her on the hot seat. Prior to the collaboration, the state was only pursing civil penalties. Not so now.
Is she a partisan political hack like you guys?
Would that make a prosecution any more effective, should it be carried out? We have never had a former President charged with violations of the federal criminal code before, so we are in uncharted territory should we ever have an indictment of a former President. On the other hand, no prior President has ever had so many shady deeds as President Trump had before or during his President. Most high-profile pols have some hangers-on who do anything for their pal, and that pol may at times find them useful for fund-raising or as a "hatchet-man", but when such people are caught for doing illegal stuff in the name of an electoral victory, using their connections to enrich themselves unlawfully, or doing some crime in personal indulgence (all of which is abuse of power, a great temptation that many people cannot resist), then prosecutions of such people are possible. Think of some Nixon appointments.
This said, prosecution of those who have recently been close to the President and have had high profiles in news media causes many of us to tremble or to shed tears. We are all legitimately scared of political witch-hunts, as almost all of us have 'voted wrong' at some point in our lives. This time the prosecution seems likely to culminate not in the likes of Albert Fall, John Mitchell, Robert Haldeman, or John Erlichman. It is not going to be someone who got as high in a position of power as former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert who messed with minors long before he became Speaker of the House. Yes it can be sickening. Power and privilege do not redeem a person devoid of self-control or moral compass. At the extreme consider the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials after World War II.
Unless one prosecutes on behalf of a despot as devoid of justice as Josef Stalin it is generally foolish to fabricate a criminal case from nothing other than vindictiveness or fear. We have never had a former President indicted for a felony crime. Unfortunately for Donald Trump he will be the first exception among thirty-eight former Presidents who survived the Presidency. Donald Trump has been a shady character much of his life, and he was still elected President.
Yes, I realize that one can interpret the indictment of someone who won 74 million votes in a bid for re-election, and I am not going to say that he did not get those through any electoral fraud, might seem an insult to the self-perceived astuteness of those voters. OK, so Trump is good at fooling people. So what! It is highly immoral to fool people to fleece them or to get them connected to vile deeds.
Quote:Is there evidence of it within the public realm that can be used against her and the state she represents during a lawsuit.
Criminal defendants have often accused prosecutors of misconduct before the case whose proceedings have since proved immaculate. Prosecutorial misconduct happens, but that is best established by the defendant's attorney better able to document such for an appeal than by a defendant who knows nothing about the intricacies of the law and of legal practice. A prosecutor definitely has the intent to do one of the worst things possible to a person, which is to achieve a conviction that leads to imprisonment or even a lawful execution.
Quote:I'm glad to see the rule of law no longer matters to those on the Left.
Wrong. The center-left accepts the old conservative principle that the rule of law is essential to a sane and just society and to the protection of civil liberties. Any prosecution of Donald Trump will succeed only in the furtherance of the rule of law; mere vindictiveness for his political agenda will be inadequate. Any successful prosecution of him will require solid evidence or testimony. False statements on tax returns will be enough to get him convicted in a court of law.
Quote:It's going to make the elimination of those on the Left much easier. So, I hope you don't bitch about one of us having the same power as her and the freedom to use public resources as a political tool/weapon against people like you and her either.
Liberals are as capable as conservatives of expressing the principle best rhymed as "do the crime and do the crime", and they must do so when they are by fault the prosecutors or judges when and where conservative pols by American standards are rare. "Blue" areas are more violent than the rest of America as a whole only where social conditions are hideous. This said, "do no crime and do no time" is also a valid assumption.
Quote: Oh, now that fascism is acceptable to you and since you're now related to it and currently supporting it, does it really matter if we are fascists or not at this point? You do understand that you are supporting fascism and you do understand that you are more likely going to be harmed or be killed one way or another because of your association with it today.
Liberalism is the diametric opposite of fascism. Unlike fascism, liberalism well serves people who have self-control and a moral compass.
Yes, anyone who dons a garish KKK robe or an offensive Nazi getup offends most sensibilities. The difference between one and the other is that one has an ideology compatible with large-scale genocide and the other is connected with large-scale genocide. I can imagine the KKK setting up concentration camps and torture chambers if it got the chance because its ideology is similar to that of Nazis who did mass shootings and herded people into gas chambers. Although I consider science-fiction scenarios in which the Axis powers, evil as they are in historical reality, conquering America I can easily imagine Nazis using the KKK as perpetrators of a Holocaust in America and as enforcers of Nazi ideology. KKK=(Nazi swastika) and KKK=(SS runes) are not hysterical exaggerations.
The few fascists who did little killing (Salazar, Dollfuss, Schuschnigg, Metaxas, and the pre-WWII military leaders of Poland come to mind) seem more to be ultra-conservatives with moral compasses. I can fully accept Schuschnigg having the assassins of his predecessor executed. If anything I am likely to extricate the label "fascist" from them. If such is what it takes to thwart a proletarian revolution and the mass death that ensures from such, then so be it. Good people in political life do not leave a trail of innocent martyrs, religious, ethnic, or political. The hyper-villains of history from Pontius Pilate (Jesus was not his only innocent victim) to DAESH do that.
We liberals know well enough to avoid toying with Marxism-Leninism, which has a record of repression and mass death similar to that of fascists.
Now you tell me...
![[Image: signs-fascism-holocaust-museum-usa-5f577...1__700.jpg]](https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/signs-fascism-holocaust-museum-usa-5f57755412921__700.jpg)
how does this not fit Donald Trump? It is all pathology. Then again, Donald Trump is political pathology and little else.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 05-21-2021
(05-20-2021, 01:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-19-2021, 09:24 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:Biden is who we thought he would be as President without the proof to back it up. Biden faked his way into office like Obama and he's trying to fake his way through like Obama did too. Here's the reality, the Democrats have already burned it's bridge with the rest of America and the Biden supporters have already earned their place in the rest of America's who gives a shit about them column. You could be lucky and die of natural causes before the misery of being stuck smack dab in the middle of a multi faceted war sets in and becomes the norm. Where will I be, I'll be living in the American states while you're paying for past sins associated with your skin color or being rounded up and sent off to death camps. Now, to be honest, I don't care if your government has the right to go after you like it's going after Trump. YOU DESERVE TO LIVE/DIE IN A COUNTRY WITH A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS THE RIGHT TO GO AFTER WHOEVER OR WHATEVER GROUP THREATENS IT OR WHOEVER OR WHATEVER GROUP IT DOESN'T LIKE OR IT CAN NO LONGER SUPPORT OR FOR WHATEVER REASON.(05-19-2021, 08:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:We will serif Biden continues the pattern of getting his legislative agenda passed over obstructionist opposition, justifying killing the filibuster, and pushing the blame onto the Republicans. I for one will be looking at the legal aftermath, with the various legal difficulties Trump, his family, and his administration. Biden had a good first 100 days, but I have a feeling we are pushing on into a more intense summer.(05-13-2021, 04:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:How is America doing as Biden is busy playing politics?(05-12-2021, 07:02 PM)Einzige Wrote: That... doesn't change the fact that Biden's Administration tobdate has been way closer in tone and effectiveness to Bill Clinton than to Franklin Roosevelt.
If you live in a fact free reality, you can imagine any tone and effectiveness that will advocate your worldview. For me, I see Biden as solving problems using approaches that are popular while ignoring the delaying obstruction of the Republicans. I don't see anything wondrous, but he seems to be moving forward.
What your side wants to do is allow criminal behavior as long as it's committed by a leading member of your team. And to carry out deadly, criminal behavior in order to install a leader from your team as president/dictator regardless of election results.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 05-21-2021
(05-20-2021, 01:52 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-19-2021, 09:24 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(05-19-2021, 08:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:We will serif Biden continues the pattern of getting his legislative agenda passed over obstructionist opposition, justifying killing the filibuster, and pushing the blame onto the Republicans. I for one will be looking at the legal aftermath, with the various legal difficulties Trump, his family, and his administration. Biden had a good first 100 days, but I have a feeling we are pushing on into a more intense summer.(05-13-2021, 04:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:How is America doing as Biden is busy playing politics?(05-12-2021, 07:02 PM)Einzige Wrote: That... doesn't change the fact that Biden's Administration tobdate has been way closer in tone and effectiveness to Bill Clinton than to Franklin Roosevelt.
If you live in a fact free reality, you can imagine any tone and effectiveness that will advocate your worldview. For me, I see Biden as solving problems using approaches that are popular while ignoring the delaying obstruction of the Republicans. I don't see anything wondrous, but he seems to be moving forward.
Biden is who we thought he would be as President without the proof to back it up.
He won far and square, and nobody is better known as a political figure in America than Biden except perhaps Obama.
81M-74M in the popular vote, and 306-232 in the Electoral College where it counts. This is despite Democrats having no chance (or willingness) to do late-season canvassing. Trump did much to engender mass distrust even before the attempted self-coup to illegally extend his Presidential term by nullifying an election that he lost. Yes, he lost it. It was surprisngly close to a Trump win, with a rather small even shift (an even 0.2%) giving America the dubious pleasure of a Second Term of Donald Trump and quite likely a dictatorship.
Quote:Biden faked his way into office like Obama and he's trying to fake his way through like Obama did too.
Nobody has a clearer record of achievements and votes than does Joe Biden. He is no pig in the poke.
Quote:Here's the reality, the Democrats have already burned it's bridge with the rest of America and the Biden supporters have already earned their place in the rest of America's who gives a shit about them column.
No, it is Trump supporters who have burned a bridge with Americans who prefer rationality, rule of law, wisdom, and intellectual integrity. Admit it: Donald Trump has huge gaps of character that I would not want in a subordinate. Unless I were in an industry such as entertainment or the arts in which character matters little, I would not hire him. To be a factory worker? Well, maybe that would break his narcissism, but I would rather let someone else do that. Fast food? He wouldn't last a week. Retailing? The question is whether he would insult a customer or boss or have a blow-up. Skilled trade? Do you think that his type willingly gets his hands dirty? Teaching or library work? Aside from having little desirable learning and having himself as the focus of the classroom or library, he'd be a disaster. Accounting? Too creative, and not in the positive sense. Writing, editing, or journalism? Do you see coherent communication? Police officer? He would be the worst sort, a brutal cop with sloppy paper work.
Most people who do real work have their narcissism broken, or they learn the hard way through vocational failures. In an economy in which most people are subordinate to some boss, Trump is the sort of person who tries to order people about before he has earned the position in which to do so. Most people chafe in jobs too small for their spirits, as someone said to Studs Terkel in Working. You might try reading that some day to understand what is demanded of people from domestic servants to pro athletes and elected officials or judges.
Quote:You could be lucky and die of natural causes before the misery of being stuck smack dab in the middle of a multi faceted war sets in and becomes the norm.
Maybe -- if people like you transform America into another Yugoslavia or Rwanda.
Quote:Where will I be, I'll be living in the American states while you're paying for past sins associated with your skin color or being rounded up and sent off to death camps.
I have never had problems with Jews for having German ancestry. Of course, all decent people hate Nazis. Unless your type instigates genocide, there will not be any race war. With Obama-like leaders (and the generational cycle suggests that Obama-like leaders, whether conservative or liberal will be the norm after Biden) the crackdown will be swift and un-theatrical. Take note: many of those who will prosecute miscreants in the Michigan Plot and the January 6 insurrection are Generation X.
Quote:Now, to be honest, I don't care if your government has the right to go after you like it's going after Trump. You might read that some time (it still holds up well) in explaining how people actually think of their work.
America has no revolutionary-socialist party on the brink of winning anything by either election or revolution. Regrettably the Republican Party has accreted some fascist tendencies that scare the Gary, Indiana out of me.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 05-22-2021
(05-20-2021, 11:07 AM). David Horn Wrote:(05-19-2021, 07:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-17-2021, 04:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(05-17-2021, 01:52 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It feels to me like things are coming to a head again as they have not for a while. Georgia and New York are targeting Trump. The DC courts are circling Barr and his so called Justice Department. Florida is holding meetings where the state law gives the governor the right to block extradition. They are circling Gaetz too. I have a feeling that we will some day move from ‘it is in the works’ to ‘it is happening.’
Can you run a presidential campaign while not daring to leave Florida?
It would be popcorn worthy for the governor of one state to block extradition to another on any felony case -- and that's where these charges lead. Even the RW SCOTUS will choke on that one, assuming certiorari of course. If the target is Trump, I doubt they can dodge it on any basis, so assume that yes, they will get dragged into it. Of course, the Southern District of New York may bring a Federal case, and no governor can block that, so that may be better: drag him to NY to face a Federal trial, then hit him with the state cases once he's there.
It's your way of thinking (tribal thinking) that's going to end with a lot of leftists and so called Democrats being targeted and eliminated all over the country. Dave, with me, you've pretty met your match because I can change, slide morality and the rule of law off to the side and embrace, impose and apply your way of thinking too. I never thought that I would be here to see the day when an older communist like you and some of the others embrace and go along with fascism. I assume that your recent philosophical/Ideological about face or turn to fascism has something to do with necessity at this point.
Where's the Fascism? Seeing Trump in jail for his obvious crimes isn't Fascism. It's justice. Trump may pull it off, and escape yet again. If he does, then he does. If won't be right, but the rule of law is pretty strict. The burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
What obvious crimes? I'm not aware of any obvious crimes or any major possibilities either. You'd think after 4 years of investigations and millions of American tax dollars spent, the liberal elites and their corporations and their big government crony's would have found something concrete or obvious as you say by now. So, do you think the attorney general of New York is politically biassed and therefore politically motivated and possibly corrupt. I've seen plenty of evidence/proof from her that she's biased and politically motivated as well.
As far as I know, the abuse of power is still a crime in this country and it's also associated with fascism/fascist states where it's acceptable and perfectly legal. You don't see the obvious signs associated with fascism/ fascist states. The State of Minnesota isn't Democratic enough to be become a fascist or communist state. You don't see the obvious sign of racism being used as an excuse or as justification and you don't see it being politicized. Are you deaf, blind and down right clueless to be missing all the obvious signs associated with fascism these days.
Dude. we are patiently waiting for a bunch of arrogant left wing politicians (the majority of whom are untested females who are accustomed to special protections that are granted to females) who have never seen a real war up close, who never had there nose broke during a fight and never felt or experienced real hardship to fuck up and cross a line they should now better than to cross at this point. You don't know what fascism looks and sounds or acts like in real life? All you and the others have to do is look in the mirror to see what a dumb fascist supporter living in America looks like these days.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 05-22-2021
(05-22-2021, 03:59 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-20-2021, 11:07 AM). David Horn Wrote:(05-19-2021, 07:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-17-2021, 04:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:(05-17-2021, 01:52 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It feels to me like things are coming to a head again as they have not for a while. Georgia and New York are targeting Trump. The DC courts are circling Barr and his so called Justice Department. Florida is holding meetings where the state law gives the governor the right to block extradition. They are circling Gaetz too. I have a feeling that we will some day move from ‘it is in the works’ to ‘it is happening.’
Can you run a presidential campaign while not daring to leave Florida?
It would be popcorn worthy for the governor of one state to block extradition to another on any felony case -- and that's where these charges lead. Even the RW SCOTUS will choke on that one, assuming certiorari of course. If the target is Trump, I doubt they can dodge it on any basis, so assume that yes, they will get dragged into it. Of course, the Southern District of New York may bring a Federal case, and no governor can block that, so that may be better: drag him to NY to face a Federal trial, then hit him with the state cases once he's there.
It's your way of thinking (tribal thinking) that's going to end with a lot of leftists and so called Democrats being targeted and eliminated all over the country. Dave, with me, you've pretty met your match because I can change, slide morality and the rule of law off to the side and embrace, impose and apply your way of thinking too. I never thought that I would be here to see the day when an older communist like you and some of the others embrace and go along with fascism. I assume that your recent philosophical/Ideological about face or turn to fascism has something to do with necessity at this point.
Where's the Fascism? Seeing Trump in jail for his obvious crimes isn't Fascism. It's justice. Trump may pull it off, and escape yet again. If he does, then he does. If won't be right, but the rule of law is pretty strict. The burden of proof lies with the prosecution.
What obvious crimes? I'm not aware of any obvious crimes or any major possibilities either. You'd think after 4 years of investigations and millions of American tax dollars spent, the liberal elites and their corporations and their big government crony's would have found something concrete or obvious as you say by now. So, do you think the attorney general of New York is politically biased and therefore politically motivated and possibly corrupt. I've seen plenty of evidence/proof from her that she's biased and politically motivated as well.[/quote]
1. It is still fascist even if it does not succeed. Adolf Hitler may not have called himself a fascist in the immediate aftermath of the Beer Hall Putsch, but he left plenty of evidence of his character, including his contempt for a fledgling democracy that he considered weak and corrupt and his blatant hatred of 'non-Aryans'.
The KKK tries to avoid connections with anything exotic, which at one time included Roman Catholicism. It has most of the hallmarks of European, Asian, and Latin-American fascism: gaudy symbolism, a reactionary agenda in economics, overt racism, violence in word and deed, and hostility toward any proletarian interests.
2. The presumption of innocence still applies in a court of law, so any description of Donald Trump as a criminal is still metaphor and not legal reality. Donald Trump was safe from criminal prosecution while President, but there is plenty of shady stuff to investigate. Just wait and see how legal process goes.
3. Obama-like behavior is the norm in the Democratic Party... and Republicans adopt it or put themselves at risk of electoral defeat. That's the sort of behavior that one sees from the most successful Reactive/Nomad leaders late in a 4T and throughout a 1T.
Quote:As far as I know, the abuse of power is still a crime in this country and it's also associated with fascism/fascist states where it's acceptable and perfectly legal. You don't see the obvious signs associated with fascism/ fascist states. The State of Minnesota isn't Democratic enough to be become a fascist or communist state. You don't see the obvious sign of racism being used as an excuse or as justification and you don't see it being politicized. Are you deaf, blind and down right clueless to be missing all the obvious signs associated with fascism these days.
I live in Michigan, and some people who have much in common with fascism were caught in an elaborate plot to kidnap the Governor of our state. The old distinction between conservatism and fascism was the rule of law, with less-bloodthirsty fascists like Dollfuss, Schuschnigg, Metaxas, Salazar, and Horthy making concessions to the rule of law while the more bloodthirsty ones like Hitler, Tojo, Pavelic, Szalasi, Pinochet, the Argentine military clique, Satan Hussein, al-Baghdadi, Mussolini (in the end), and Franco (in the beginning) making none. When leading Republicans sacrifice the rule of law for power, as did Donald Trump, one has much to dread in the GOP.
So how can you account for the Capitol insurrection of January 6? People are not going to be prosecuted for political beliefs that became mainstream in much of America.
Quote:Dude. we are patiently waiting for a bunch of arrogant left wing politicians (the majority of whom are untested females who are accustomed to special protections that are granted to females) who have never seen a real war up close, who never had there nose broke during a fight and never felt or experienced real hardship to (expletive deleted) and cross a line they should now better than to cross at this point. You don't know what fascism looks and sounds or acts like in real life? All you and the others have to do is look in the mirror to see what a dumb fascist supporter living in America looks like these days.
We rightly choose our politicians in free and competitive elections. As for arrogance... do you fail to see it in Lauren Bobbert and Marjorie Taylor-Greene? They are on the Right!
...never seeing a war up close does not make one an incompetent leader in wartime. Think at the extreme of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, whom Hitler derided as a "cripple". Having never had a nose broken in a fight? From what I understand, the US Military Academy doesn't teach cadets how to win bar-room brawls. Avoiding bar-room brawls looks more like evidence of character. Yes, I generally avoid bars. With my autism, my blank stare can easily be confused with an attempt to seduce a wife or girlfriend, which might get me a broken nose.
I have seen enough book and video evidence of fascist crimes to find fascism appalling. One murder is one too many.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 05-22-2021
(05-21-2021, 05:05 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: No, it is Trump supporters who have burned a bridge with Americans who prefer rationality, rule of law, wisdom, and intellectual integrity. Admit it: Donald Trump has huge gaps of character that I would not want in a subordinate. Unless I were in an industry such as entertainment or the arts in which character matters little, I would not hire him. To be a factory worker? Well, maybe that would break his narcissism, but I would rather let someone else do that. Fast food? He wouldn't last a week. Retailing? The question is whether he would insult a customer or boss or have a blow-up. Skilled trade? Do you think that his type willingly gets his hands dirty? Teaching or library work? Aside from having little desirable learning and having himself as the focus of the classroom or library, he'd be a disaster. Accounting? Too creative, and not in the positive sense. Writing, editing, or journalism? Do you see coherent communication? Police officer? He would be the worst sort, a brutal cop with sloppy paper work.
Most people who do real work have their narcissism broken, or they learn the hard way through vocational failures. In an economy in which most people are subordinate to some boss, Trump is the sort of person who tries to order people about before he has earned the position in which to do so. Most people chafe in jobs too small for their spirits, as someone said to Studs Terkel in Working. You might try reading that some day to understand what is demanded of people from domestic servants to pro athletes and elected officials or judges.
True, Joe Biden was the most viable candidate of all the Democratic candidates at the time. I mean, he was Obama's ( the greatest or at least the most highly anticipated Democratic president we've seen since John F. Kennedy) right hand man for eight years for God's sake. Now, we've got old Biden acting like he's Bernie in his stead. I wonder how many racist whites supported Biden/Bernie ( a fellow racist white who had represented the racist whites on the Democratic side for many years) in the last election. Bob says the racist whites switched parties. I think they stayed and continued voting to protect paychecks and benefits and the institutions associated with the Democratic party. Bob forgets that Biden and Bird ( the old clansman) served together and were close friends and political allies.
As far as I can see, the white tribe is still the most dominant of the tribes associated with the DNC today. I have a question. Are you able to adapt and adjust to living in an environment where the black tribe or any minority tribe has the right to do or say whatever they want with you. Personally speaking, I do not like the leadership of the white tribe on the Democratic side and I could care less about what eventually happens to them during the reckoning/resolution that's coming. Acerima is on a collision coarse with America and I don't see Liberal Acerima coming out of it in one piece. So, I suggest that you prepare for major impacts.
As I've told Dave and shown others, I'm very similar to them in their way of thinking and my willing to slide the rule of law and morality to the side for the right cause as well. The only difference is, I'm more principled and I'm on the opposite side as them. Plus, I'm willing to wait (allow more time for the better people stuck among the tribes to move out of harms way and get out of dodge before its to late) for the white leadership cross the line that it should know better than to cross at this point in their lives.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 05-22-2021
(05-22-2021, 03:59 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What obvious crimes? I'm not aware of any obvious crimes or any major possibilities either.
Your habit of only reading versions of reality favorable to your worldview will result in your being surprised in the near future.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 05-22-2021
(05-22-2021, 02:23 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(05-21-2021, 05:05 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: No, it is Trump supporters who have burned a bridge with Americans who prefer rationality, rule of law, wisdom, and intellectual integrity. Admit it: Donald Trump has huge gaps of character that I would not want in a subordinate. Unless I were in an industry such as entertainment or the arts in which character matters little, I would not hire him. To be a factory worker? Well, maybe that would break his narcissism, but I would rather let someone else do that. Fast food? He wouldn't last a week. Retailing? The question is whether he would insult a customer or boss or have a blow-up. Skilled trade? Do you think that his type willingly gets his hands dirty? Teaching or library work? Aside from having little desirable learning and having himself as the focus of the classroom or library, he'd be a disaster. Accounting? Too creative, and not in the positive sense. Writing, editing, or journalism? Do you see coherent communication? Police officer? He would be the worst sort, a brutal cop with sloppy paper work.
Most people who do real work have their narcissism broken, or they learn the hard way through vocational failures. In an economy in which most people are subordinate to some boss, Trump is the sort of person who tries to order people about before he has earned the position in which to do so. Most people chafe in jobs too small for their spirits, as someone said to Studs Terkel in Working. You might try reading that some day to understand what is demanded of people from domestic servants to pro athletes and elected officials or judges.
True, Joe Biden was the most viable candidate of all the Democratic candidates at the time. I mean, he was Obama's ( the greatest or at least the most highly anticipated Democratic president we've seen since John F. Kennedy) right hand man for eight years for God's sake. Now, we've got old Biden acting like he's Bernie in his stead. I wonder how many racist whites supported Biden/Bernie ( a fellow racist white who had represented the racist whites on the Democratic side for many years) in the last election. Bob says the racist whites switched parties. I think they stayed and continued voting to protect paychecks and benefits and the institutions associated with the Democratic party. Bob forgets that Biden and Bird ( the old clansman) served together and were close friends and political allies.
Byrd left the Klan early. I don't know how you project racism onto Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders. Donald Trump is a different matter, as glaring as a peacock but without the beauty.
Quote:As far as I can see, the white tribe is still the most dominant of the tribes associated with the DNC today. I have a question. Are you able to adapt and adjust to living in an environment where the black tribe or any minority tribe has the right to do or say whatever they want with you. Personally speaking, I do not like the leadership of the white tribe on the Democratic side and I could care less about what eventually happens to them during the reckoning/resolution that's coming. Acerima is on a collision coarse with America and I don't see Liberal Acerima coming out of it in one piece. So, I suggest that you prepare for major impacts.
I am not at all a tribal person.
It is best that there be no collision. Maybe things get better for most Americans -- higher real wages, more competition in commerce, more educational opportunity... I hope that people start voting again on quality of promises for challenges and quality of achievements for incumbents instead of identity or talking points such as "I'm against abortion" or "I want to raise taxes on the rich".
Events move quickly in a 4T, toward the end with surprising speed before the social climate freezes. Society re-invents itself in surprising ways at the time that seem obvious after the fact.
Quote:As I've told Dave and shown others, I'm very similar to them in their way of thinking and my willing to slide the rule of law and morality to the side for the right cause as well. The only difference is, I'm more principled and I'm on the opposite side as them. Plus, I'm willing to wait (allow more time for the better people stuck among the tribes to move out of harms way and get out of dodge before its to late) for the white leadership cross the line that it should know better than to cross at this point in their lives.
If you still align with or adhere to Donald Trump as a personality, then you identify with something terribly amoral and devoid of any principles upon which America can congeal over the long term. The Service academies inculcate an honor code that says in slightly different ways "Do not lie, cheat, or steal; do not tolerate such by others". People who do this in the less-stressful environment of a university will find it tempting in the greater stress of combat. I consider Donald Trump's sleazy behavior in business and his serial adultery (which involve lying, cheating, and stealing because one or the other of those bad behaviors -- lying, cheating, stealing -- is necessary for dishonest business and for adultery).