(07-26-2021, 05:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-11-2021, 06:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Intellectually-hollow as Palin and Trump are, they succeeded to the extent that they did with dishonesty among the gullible. Many people believe whatever is convenient for them at the time, which explains the knack of confidence artists for flattering their marks.

I just have the feeling that the what is left of the Republican base cares more about having a racist president than it d does about democracy.  It isn't that they are being dishonest to themselves, but they are ashamed of their true motivations.

(07-26-2021, 05:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-11-2021, 06:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Intellectually-hollow as Palin and Trump are, they succeeded to the extent that they did with dishonesty among the gullible. Many people believe whatever is convenient for them at the time, which explains the knack of confidence artists for flattering their marks.

I just have the feeling that the what is left of the Republican base cares more about having a racist president than it d does about democracy.  It isn't that they are being dishonest to themselves, but they are ashamed of their true motivations.

(07-27-2021, 09:00 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-26-2021, 05:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-11-2021, 06:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Intellectually-hollow as Palin and Trump are, they succeeded to the extent that they did with dishonesty among the gullible. Many people believe whatever is convenient for them at the time, which explains the knack of confidence artists for flattering their marks.

I just have the feeling that the what is left of the Republican base cares more about having a racist president than it d does about democracy.  It isn't that they are being dishonest to themselves, but they are ashamed of their true motivations.

I think it's even simpler: they just want to win.  Many in the Trump circle have had lives of quiet desparation or disappointmnt, and Trump offered them a chance to stick it their enemies.  They don't have to win as long as you lose (ha-ha-ha).

Quote:Freedom and responsible government are more important than getting what one wants from government legislation at the time. We were less than 7/10 of a percent away in the total vote (which would have been enough to swing Arizona, Georgia, and Wisconsin to Trump) from having Donald Trump re-elected, and nobody can reasonably say that he would show respect for political decencies that we have taken for granted because this is the United States of America and we do not elect despots because we are Americans.

Donald Trump has established a personality cult that convinces people that the truth is whatever he finds convenient at the time -- and it has outlasted his Presidency and will likely outlast him. Objective reality can transcend nothing in brainwashed people.

To preserve our democracy we will need people with unquestioned credentials of conservatism taking on the falsehoods that have hijacked American conservatism from being a defense of limited government to becoming a pretext of despotism.  

Thank you Adam Kinzinger, and thank you Liz Cheney.

(08-04-2021, 01:45 AM)Einzige Wrote: You guys do know that the entire system is an artificial and these politicians are mostly acting, right?

(08-10-2021, 02:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-04-2021, 01:45 AM)Einzige Wrote: You guys do know that the entire system is an artificial and these politicians are mostly acting, right?

All human institutions are human creations and thus artifice.

(08-04-2021, 01:45 AM)Einzige Wrote: You guys do know that the entire system is an artificial and these politicians are mostly acting, right?

(06-02-2021, 04:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Back in the 2016 campaign, there was a common mantra among the Republicans about Hilary, “Lock her up.”  They seemed to have a good time chanting it.  Of course, nothing came of it.  She and any other Obama administration people were not charged.  The entire thing has faded.  Nowadays, the flip side accusations are taken seriously.  There seems to be a real desire to lock him, his family and various people up.  Indictments, convictions and pardons are flying around and rumored.  The Democrats are taking the proceedings entirely seriously, even if Biden does particularly want to be associated with it.

I’m not sure where this leads.  I also note Hillary retreated from public life, while Trump declines to go away.  But we will see where this and other differences lead.

(06-04-2021, 03:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Good use of the MAGA initials there! I think the number arrested is over 400 by now. Republicans still resist an investigation by a bipartisan independent commission to see who all is behind the attack and how it can be prevented in the future. They thereby support the attack and oppose democracy. Not voting to convict Trump, and a lot of them voting not to certify the election even after being personally in danger during the attack, is also an attack on democracy and the peoples' rights.

(08-10-2021, 09:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-02-2021, 04:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Back in the 2016 campaign, there was a common mantra among the Republicans about Hilary, “Lock her up.”  They seemed to have a good time chanting it.  Of course, nothing came of it.  She and any other Obama administration people were not charged.  The entire thing has faded.  Nowadays, the flip side accusations are taken seriously.  There seems to be a real desire to lock him, his family and various people up.  Indictments, convictions and pardons are flying around and rumored.  The Democrats are taking the proceedings entirely seriously, even if Biden does particularly want to be associated with it.

I’m not sure where this leads.  I also note Hillary retreated from public life, while Trump declines to go away.  But we will see where this and other differences lead.

It all depends on how f-d up the country is by 2024. I'd say that Washington DC is doing a pretty good job at f-g it up further and making situations worse for most right now.

(08-10-2021, 09:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-04-2021, 03:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Good use of the MAGA initials there! I think the number arrested is over 400 by now. Republicans still resist an investigation by a bipartisan independent commission to see who all is behind the attack and how it can be prevented in the future. They thereby support the attack and oppose democracy. Not voting to convict Trump, and a lot of them voting not to certify the election even after being personally in danger during the attack, is also an attack on democracy and the peoples' rights.

I had to check in to see if the blue population increased or if it's mainly the same old shit, different day. Well, it looks like it's still the same old shit, different day.

Quote:       On January 6, 2021, many members of the Proud Boys participated in the storming of the United States Capitol building,[165] where some members of the group appeared wearing orange hats.[166] Some members wore all black clothing, rather than their usual black and yellow attire, as Tarrio had suggested in a Parler post days earlier, which prosecutors said was an apparent reference to mimicking the appearance of antifa members.[167] Analysis by CNN found at least eleven individuals with ties to Proud Boys had been charged by February 3.[23] The Justice Department announced on February 3, 2021 that two members had been indicted for conspiracy.[22] Five individuals affiliated with Proud Boys were charged with conspiracy on February 11, followed by six more on February 26.[168][169] Federal grand jury conspiracy indictments of others followed.[170] Federal prosecutors were considering whether to pursue charges under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, which is typically used to prosecute organized crime syndicates.[171]


A review by the Wall Street Journal of social media posts from Proud Boys members showed that the group repeatedly invoked Trump's messages as a call to action,[172] and were disheartened by the arrests and what they perceived to be Trump's lack of action in the days leading up to Joe Biden's inauguration.[173]

On February 16, 2021, Representative Bennie G. Thompson (D-Miss.), the chairman of the United States House Homeland Security Committee, filed a federal lawsuit against Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes, and Proud Boys International LLC. The lawsuit alleges that the events at the Capitol on January 6 violated the Third Enforcement Act of 1871.[174] The chairman of the Proud Boys, Enrique Tarrio, called the lawsuit "frivolous".[174]

The New York Times reported in March 2021 that the incident had caused Proud Boys and other far-right groups to splinter amid disagreements on whether the storming had gone too far or was a success, and doubts about the leadership of their organizations, raising concerns of increasing numbers of lone wolf actors who would be more difficult to monitor and might pursue more extreme actions.[175][176][177]

The New York Times reported in March 2021 that the FBI was investigating communications between an unnamed associate of the White House and an unnamed member of Proud Boys during the days prior to the incursion. The communications had been detected by examining cellphone metadata and were separate from previously known contacts between Roger Stone and Proud Boys.[178]

Citing private Facebook messages, prosecutors alleged in a March 2021 court filing that during the weeks preceding the attack, Florida Oath Keepers leader Kelly Meggs had contacted Proud Boys who he said could serve as a "force multiplier" and that he had "organized an alliance" among the Oath Keepers, Proud Boys and the Florida chapter of the Three Percenters.[179] A US district court in Portland also charged two Oregon brothers who are members of the group with the federal crimes of violence and terrorism for actions related to the storming of the capitol.[180][24]
In June 2021, federal judge Royce Lamberth declined to release Proud Boys member Christopher Worrell prior to his trial, citing Facebook posts he had made threatening retribution against who he believed "ratted" him out to the FBI.[181]

(08-11-2021, 12:02 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-10-2021, 09:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-02-2021, 04:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Back in the 2016 campaign, there was a common mantra among the Republicans about Hilary, “Lock her up.”  They seemed to have a good time chanting it.  Of course, nothing came of it.  She and any other Obama administration people were not charged.  The entire thing has faded.  Nowadays, the flip side accusations are taken seriously.  There seems to be a real desire to lock him, his family and various people up.  Indictments, convictions and pardons are flying around and rumored.  The Democrats are taking the proceedings entirely seriously, even if Biden does particularly want to be associated with it.

I’m not sure where this leads.  I also note Hillary retreated from public life, while Trump declines to go away.  But we will see where this and other differences lead.

It all depends on how f-d up the country is by 2024. I'd say that Washington DC is doing a pretty good job at f-g it up further and making situations worse for most right now.

If it makes situations worse for you Republicans, that's OK with me. I don't think Biden has that in mind though, but he wants to make the rich pay more taxes-- which he will do if his reconciliation bill goes through. Since you believe in the absurd trickle-down theory, hook, line and sinker, this would make you squirm, but would not actually affect you.

(08-11-2021, 01:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The fecal stench of the January 6 Putsch remains. Many people on the Right, especially the libertarian-leaning sorts who support minimal intervention from the government (which as much precludes crony capitalism as well as welfare) seem to be discovering that they have no political home in a GOP that has taken on many of the characteristics of fascism. 

I recognize as much as anyone that we all have the responsibility to create wealth, perhaps not ours, if we are to justify our own dignity as people. That wealth is capital that creates jobs and allows higher pay. It might not belong until we find that out the hard way should people start relying upon government to solve all one's problems from unemployment to traffic jams to education. Even if we rely upon heavy taxation to support a Scandinavian-style welfare state  such is difficult in the extreme with inadequate pay that allows people to pay the taxes that allow medical care and education for all. 

You have seen the stories of January 6, have you not? Have you heard the testimony of police officers beaten even with American flags? I'm sure that you consider such acts as burning, trampling, rending, or defecating or urinating upon the flag as desecration. I can think of worse, now: using Old Glory as a bludgeon against law enforcement doing its duty. 

Before you tell me that Antifa and Black Lives Matter are even worse... Black Lives Matters rallies were civilized by contrast. if you want to discuss local instances of looting, arson, vandalism, or assault, then people who took video (often with the aid of a cell-phone camera) of such overt crimes instead of police brutality (the police behaved themselves) ended up getting material for prosecution of violent rioters. Remember that news crews from the local TV stations typically get more footage than the station can use. The news media work hand and glove with police and prosecutors against crime, in part because trials and convictions for egregious crime are good material for news. 

One right-wing group involved in the insurrection, the Proud Boys, is now designated a "foreign terrorist organization" in Canada. 

Let's look again at the Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace to overthrow a democratically-elected legislature -- oh, excuse me, Trump's people storming the Capitol to prevent a recognition of his electoral defeat:

 

Quote:    

(08-11-2021, 01:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're still stuck on an event that America has already moved beyond and no longer cares about these days. I'd say that Black Lives Matter, Antifa and the group of Americans who stormed the capital are equally destructive myself and pretty much the same. The only difference is that one was more focused on addressing the real issue with Washington DC than the other two associated with you. Unfortunately for you, I happen to believe that America could break up, regroup and reestablish itself while the Democratic states (Democratic populations/tribes) fight over the big government scraps associated with a bygone era. In short, the progressives are a bunch of dumb shits compared to most of us these days. You want to attach your life to a senile old man or a pretty brown eyed ditz or some imbecile who sounds smart or ruthless cunt or a group of blue billionaire and some blue corporations that aren't even close to being worth a trillion then by all means be my guest. I'll say goodbye and good riddance. BTW, the Bolsheviks overthrew a group of non elected rulers and then established themselves as the new rulers with the same powers to control as the group they replaced. Sorry dude but you are ignorant/clueless/careless enough and needy enough to be a modern day Bolshevik or a Nazi supporter these days.  All you're doing right now is setting yourself up to go down along  with them. You've already seen what Democrats do when the going gets tough. The Democrats skip town and leave their people without any representation. That's going to be you and the other libtards  here eventually.

(08-11-2021, 01:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-11-2021, 01:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

Quote:(Capitol Putsch of January 6, 2021, in essence)

You're still stuck on an event that America has already moved beyond and no longer cares about these days.

Quote:I'd say that Black Lives Matter, Antifa and the group of Americans who stormed the capital are equally destructive myself and pretty much the same. The only difference is that one was more focused on addressing the real issue with Washington DC than the other two associated with you.

Quote:Unfortunately for you, I happen to believe that America could break up, regroup and reestablish itself while the Democratic states (Democratic populations/tribes) fight over the big government scraps associated with a bygone era. In short, the progressives are a bunch of [derogatory language redacted] compared to most of us these days.

Quote:You want to attach your life to a senile old man or a [sexist language redacted] or some imbecile who sounds smart (comment: Huh? Smart people can play dumb, but dumb people can never keep up the charade of intelligence that they do not have) or [vile sexist language redacted] or a group of blue billionaire and some blue corporations that aren't even close to being worth a trillion then by all means be my guest. I'll say goodbye and good riddance.

Quote:BTW, the Bolsheviks overthrew a group of non elected rulers and then established themselves as the new rulers with the same powers to control as the group they replaced. Sorry dude but you are ignorant/clueless/careless enough and needy enough to be a modern day Bolshevik or a Nazi supporter these days.  All you're doing right now is setting yourself up to go down along  with them. You've already seen what Democrats do when the going gets tough. The Democrats skip town and leave their people without any representation. That's going to be you and the other libtards  here eventually.

(08-11-2021, 10:20 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I'd say a lot of people care that a bunch of racist Trump supporters tried to end democracy.  I find it hard to believe you really confuse BLM and Antifa for a bunch of racist Trump supporters.  For me, the question is how many red folk with kill themselves by Covid.  Originally, Trump thought that if he could keep the economy going, he would win.  Therefore, he put the economy ahead of saving lives.  I suspect that this turned off enough people that he lost.  Still, he has left his people believing one should not fight Covid.  This is at a time when the vaccines make fighting Covid possible and would allow the restrictions that hurt the economy to be dropped.  Still, by this time, not fighting Covid has become an Acireman thing.  They can't help themselves from killing each other.

The Big Lie is clearly a big lie say the courts.  The lawyers who supported the Big Lie are falling like flies.  Voting against popular bills isn't going to make the Reds more popular.  Even McConnel voted with the Democrats on the bipartisan infrastructure bill.  The Mississippi hospital system is among those collapsing while their governor went on a political junket.

And you still don't seem to have a clue...

(08-12-2021, 12:31 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Wrong; that insurrection bodes ill for the survival of American democracy. Elections have meaning, lest there be no democracy. Heck, Syria has elections. In essence, democracy depends upon people in power being willing to lose elections when they fail or go stale. That insurrection will be remembered much like 9/11 or Pearl Harbor Day. 

What part of "Donald Trump was a catastrophic failure as President" do you not understand? Donald Trump sought to nullify an election that he lost.  That, all too often, is how democracies become dictatorships. The other method is rigged elections. 

Donald Trump showed more dictatorial and despotic traits than any other President in American history. Under him formed a secret police responsible to nobody but himself to harass dissidents. What he did wrong in the Dictator's Playbook was to try to purge his political allies of backsliders before making the opposition irrelevant. Maybe he wouldn't have made that mistake the next time. Thank God, and 306 electoral votes that went to Joe Biden, that he had gotten no second chance. 

Donald Trump still has a nasty personality cult behind him. If it loses him, then it will find someone else -- maybe someone who knows enough to start assassinating opponents in elected office, media, academia, labor unions, etc.