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The Partisan Divide on Issues - Printable Version

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RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 08-16-2021

(08-16-2021, 01:55 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 03:56 AM))pbrower2a Wrote:
(08-14-2021, 03:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(08-14-2021, 02:40 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: 'Acirema' would just be America spelled backwards.  Since Classic uses America, I needed to find a way to clearly talk about his imaginary following.  The reds have problems with aligning with the elites and the racists, but those aren't Classic's hang ups, so I am not sure how else to refer to his delusions?  They are distinct enough from the red that I have to answer the two separately.

Thanks for clarifying. Myself, I don't notice that the reds have much difficulty aligning with the elites and the racists. It seems in fact like they are their two biggest priorities. I can't believe they don't know who they are voting for. Classic Xer for example is a huge fan of trickle-down economics. He knows that he supports the right of the big elite businessmen to be free of government regulation and taxes-- which are the way we liberals keep these elites in bounds-- and he thinks that this trickle-down, anti-welfare policy will help him in his business as a boss also.

The irony is that trickle-down economics might even be bad for his business. Air conditioning is still a luxury in the Twin Cities area as it isn't even so close as Kansas City or St. Louis... maybe even Des Moines. The neoliberal belief in free enterprise in the sense of enterprise having the ability to do whatever it wishes to the Common Man is consistent with freedom for elites and tyranny for the rest. Such is nothing good, and it has been done often. It has never worked well for the Common Man.  It has ensured, though, that some impressive castles and palaces be built!
The irony is that all of my customers (all of their wealth) are directly related to trickle down economics these days. I've told you all many times that I don't make money doing work for poor people like you. It doesn't matter whether they work for the government or work in the private sector or work for an organization tied to government funding or private organizations tied to private funding these days. They're all related and tied to trickle down economics. One can be dumb/naive and ignore/miss that fact/reality like little poor old you, financially opportunistic Eric looking for quick ways to make a buck off those who are of similar mind or hold similar beliefs as him and the  other clueless Libtards rolling with their emotions instead of listening and thinking for themselves these days.

Trickle-down economics is a Republican policy of giving breaks and tax cuts to the rich in hopes that the money will trickle down. This is financed by cutting off benefits to poor people, and by adding to the national debt. Of course you like to reverse the meaning of terms for your purposes.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 08-16-2021

(08-16-2021, 03:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 01:55 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 03:56 AM))pbrower2a Wrote:
(08-14-2021, 03:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(08-14-2021, 02:40 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: 'Acirema' would just be America spelled backwards.  Since Classic uses America, I needed to find a way to clearly talk about his imaginary following.  The reds have problems with aligning with the elites and the racists, but those aren't Classic's hang ups, so I am not sure how else to refer to his delusions?  They are distinct enough from the red that I have to answer the two separately.

Thanks for clarifying. Myself, I don't notice that the reds have much difficulty aligning with the elites and the racists. It seems in fact like they are their two biggest priorities. I can't believe they don't know who they are voting for. Classic Xer for example is a huge fan of trickle-down economics. He knows that he supports the right of the big elite businessmen to be free of government regulation and taxes-- which are the way we liberals keep these elites in bounds-- and he thinks that this trickle-down, anti-welfare policy will help him in his business as a boss also.

The irony is that trickle-down economics might even be bad for his business. Air conditioning is still a luxury in the Twin Cities area as it isn't even so close as Kansas City or St. Louis... maybe even Des Moines. The neoliberal belief in free enterprise in the sense of enterprise having the ability to do whatever it wishes to the Common Man is consistent with freedom for elites and tyranny for the rest. Such is nothing good, and it has been done often. It has never worked well for the Common Man.  It has ensured, though, that some impressive castles and palaces be built!
The irony is that all of my customers (all of their wealth) are directly related to trickle down economics these days. I've told you all many times that I don't make money doing work for poor people like you. It doesn't matter whether they work for the government or work in the private sector or work for an organization tied to government funding or private organizations tied to private funding these days. They're all related and tied to trickle down economics. One can be dumb/naive and ignore/miss that fact/reality like little poor old you, financially opportunistic Eric looking for quick ways to make a buck off those who are of similar mind or hold similar beliefs as him and the  other clueless Libtards rolling with their emotions instead of listening and thinking for themselves these days.

Trickle-down economics is a Republican policy of giving breaks and tax cuts to the rich in hopes that the money will trickle down. This is financed by cutting off benefits to poor people, and by adding to the national debt. Of course you like to reverse the meaning of terms for your purposes.
Dude, we have the most diversified economy in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but we still have the largest economy in the world too. BTW, giving more benefits to largely unmotivated welfare recipients, common criminals and less productive people adds to the national debt too.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 08-16-2021

(08-16-2021, 04:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The social critic Paul Fussell would have put you neatly in the "high prole" category because you lack the "right"  professional degree (typically law, medicine, or architecture) and you occasionally do real skilled work. You are not a pure white-collar worker, and in view of your limited education, if you did pure white-collar work you would likely have one of those jobs in which you dress like an executive yet starve... or you clerk in a convenience store. Skilled workers can have above-average incomes, but they generally do so many faux pas when they get to see the real middle classes in a social setting they show themselves too boorish to fit in.
PB, your inner blue prude is revealing itself again. I lived in a working class neighborhood. I grew up with middle class people. I went to school with middle class people. The bulk of my friends were the sons and daughters of middle class people. The bulk of my school friends are upper middle class wage earners today.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 08-16-2021

(08-16-2021, 01:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: None??? Are you sure about that???

Sure enough.  From what I have observed, the bulk of the Democrats are working for the common good while Communists worked to secure themselves as a new elite class.  Thus, there are no communists among the Democrats and no crime in working for the common good.  If you see working for the common good as horrible and violence as thrilling you can come up with your odd perspective.  I assure you, it is odd.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 08-16-2021

(08-16-2021, 09:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 03:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 01:55 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 03:56 AM))pbrower2a Wrote:
(08-14-2021, 03:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Thanks for clarifying. Myself, I don't notice that the reds have much difficulty aligning with the elites and the racists. It seems in fact like they are their two biggest priorities. I can't believe they don't know who they are voting for. Classic Xer for example is a huge fan of trickle-down economics. He knows that he supports the right of the big elite businessmen to be free of government regulation and taxes-- which are the way we liberals keep these elites in bounds-- and he thinks that this trickle-down, anti-welfare policy will help him in his business as a boss also.

The irony is that trickle-down economics might even be bad for his business. Air conditioning is still a luxury in the Twin Cities area as it isn't even so close as Kansas City or St. Louis... maybe even Des Moines. The neoliberal belief in free enterprise in the sense of enterprise having the ability to do whatever it wishes to the Common Man is consistent with freedom for elites and tyranny for the rest. Such is nothing good, and it has been done often. It has never worked well for the Common Man.  It has ensured, though, that some impressive castles and palaces be built!
The irony is that all of my customers (all of their wealth) are directly related to trickle down economics these days. I've told you all many times that I don't make money doing work for poor people like you. It doesn't matter whether they work for the government or work in the private sector or work for an organization tied to government funding or private organizations tied to private funding these days. They're all related and tied to trickle down economics. One can be dumb/naive and ignore/miss that fact/reality like little poor old you, financially opportunistic Eric looking for quick ways to make a buck off those who are of similar mind or hold similar beliefs as him and the  other clueless Libtards rolling with their emotions instead of listening and thinking for themselves these days.

Trickle-down economics is a Republican policy of giving breaks and tax cuts to the rich in hopes that the money will trickle down. This is financed by cutting off benefits to poor people, and by adding to the national debt. Of course you like to reverse the meaning of terms for your purposes.
Dude, we have the most diversified economy in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but we still have the largest economy in the world too. BTW, giving more benefits to largely unmotivated welfare recipients,  common criminals and  less productive people adds to the national debt too.

Let me explain how welfare works. I will use disability as an example. "Craig Cripple" has real problems getting a job because he has poor muscle tone, poor coordination, and little upper-body strength. He's basically an industrial accident waiting to happen, and just about any employer knows that. He gets some rent aid, and that ends up going from a government agency to a landlord. He gets medical aid and that goes to medical practices. He gets food aid that in my part of the country typically goes to Meijer, Wal*Mart, Spartan-Nash, or Aldi. 

Craig knows that he can be more of a participant in the consumer economy if he does some sort of work. Part-time work in a convenience store or fast-food place would be no improvement if he loses his welfare benefits, but perhaps he can hone some highly-desirable skill... maybe "Craig Cripple" ends up with a middle-class job. Employers recognize one fairly-reliable characteristic of the handicapped: they are cautious. So he does paper work well, and he ends up as a taxpayer. In the meantime his expenditures may be filling a hard-to-fill apartment, and those who have him as a paying customer at least have a reliable customer -- good as cash. After he becomes a desirable employee, he can perhaps buy a not-so-old used car or an inexpensive subcompact, go to the electronic candy store (Best Buy) and load up on electronic goodies, spend some money on some life-enriching excursions, and rent a better apartment. Maybe get a doggie as a companion. 

Welfare reduces crime, especially shoplifting. One way or another, people are going to eat, and it is better that We the People pay for this as taxpayers than that retailers be obliged to subsidize poverty. 

... I might suggest that you re-read the Sermon on the Mount to recognize the essence of Christian economics: it is to give dignity to the disadvantaged, and not to exploit them or lord it over them as is the case with trickle-down economics as with Donald Trump, a man who neither reads nor heeds the Bible.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 08-17-2021

(08-16-2021, 09:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 04:11 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The social critic Paul Fussell would have put you neatly in the "high prole" category because you lack the "right"  professional degree (typically law, medicine, or architecture) and you occasionally do real skilled work. You are not a pure white-collar worker, and in view of your limited education, if you did pure white-collar work you would likely have one of those jobs in which you dress like an executive yet starve... or you clerk in a convenience store. Skilled workers can have above-average incomes, but they generally do so many faux pas when they get to see the real middle classes in a social setting they show themselves too boorish to fit in.

PB, your inner blue prude is revealing itself again. I lived in a working class neighborhood. I grew up with middle class people. I went to school with middle class people. The bulk of my friends were the sons and daughters of middle class people. The bulk of my school friends are upper middle class wage earners today.

Did I say that any class is superior to the others? Class has little to do with money. A gangster who makes his money off criminal enterprises may be rolling in dough, but as a rule criminals -- even successful ones -- have much in common with the unemployable. They are often barely literate and highly superstitious. Their language (if you have ever heard wiretaps of mobsters) is full of F-bombs and racial slurs. They have very short time frames; they do little planning, and they spend wildly. Their kids typically do badly in school because their homes do not promote learning.  Contrast a Protestant pastor in a small town who earns little. Most likely he has a college degree. He well knows the difference between religion and superstition (well, that is his line of work!). It takes extreme pressure to get a vile word out of him. He must plan his outlays of money for anything. His kids strive for good grades because that may be how his kids get into college or a high-quality trade school. If his consumer spending is on the low side, it is not for lack of knowledge of what the status symbols are. 

Not knowing what the status symbols are? Advertising  well establishes what those are by brand name. 

The mobster typically thinks more like the chronic welfare recipient (someone lower in class than the unskilled worker) than like people of similar income. The Protestant pastor is typically middle-class in values.

That is extreme. 

I didn't make this up; Paul Fussell established this about fifty years ago. Among those who actually work for a living the classes are:

3 (and I start here because I am ignoring the super-rich who work little, if at all)... the upper-middle class of highly-successful professionals and business owners. This is as far as anyone can get through his own efforts in the American class system. The professionals are attorneys and physicians, maybe high-end scientists, architects, maybe college professors. They are making big money. Tens of millions strive for this class, yet only a few hundred thousand make it.              

4. Middle. These are the not-so-successful professionals socially (dentists, veterinarians... they often resent physicians), engineers, accountants, computer programmers, salesmen (low-paid retail obviously excluded) and sales managers, oil-field geologists. Maybe many independent farmers left from before the great consolidation. Teachers and preachers generally came here from the old lower-middle class. They may not earn as much as many highly-skilled blue-collar workers, but they live in a very different cultural milieu. 

====== THERE IS NO LOWER-MIDDLE CLASS ANYMORE! =====

That lower-middle class that took pride in having a "solid high-school education" has mostly been shoved into the category of semi-skilled workers. That is now the abode of the clerks, people who do the typing and data input, operate a cash register, or answer phones. Those in such jobs typically see them mostly as transitions to something better, which may mean being the wife of someone successful enough to be middle class. But I will say more in another group. 

5. High-prole (really, skilled labor)... people with trades of crafts. Even the lower end economically (like barbers and carpenters) will tell you that they are not mere laborers. If they operate something, then it might be something extremely complex, like a power plant, an aircraft, a boat, or heavy equipment. They are the installers and set-up men. (Fussell did not much discuss blue-collar supervisors, but he did have police and firefighters here). They typically have some initiative on the job and may give orders -- but not to white-collar workers except for perhaps safety warnings. If the middle-class and upper-middle-class dress up for work, these people dress up (compared to their work clothes) for leisure. Installers and repairers of very complex machinery are in this class (this sounds like you, Classic X'er, at least from what you tell me. Nurses and flight attendants are in this class. 

High-prole and middle-class people may have similar incomes, but their spending habits and attitudes toward formal education are very different. Middle-class people are fussy about grammar and diction even to the point of prissiness, and high-prole talk is much more earthy. 

6. Mid-proles (or usually semi-skilled labor)... this is the largest class in America, and it does machine operation (drivers of trucks or cabs) or has work that machines pace (assembly-line work. As I suggested above, much of what used to be the once-respected clerical work is now in this category. They do not have much discretion or initiative on the job; the system or a customer flow paces the work. There may be a slightly-tricky machine to operate, but one can learn that quickly. Unlike the classes above them they are subject to lay-offs. They often hate their jobs (Fussell cites someone telling Studs Terkel in Working that his job is "too small for his spirit", something that I have often seen among people doing such work). This class has much resentment. To fit into such work requires that one be broken in like a draft animal. 

(I would argue that a completed, but bad, high-school education prepares one for such work). 

7. Low-proles (or unskilled labor). These are the people who do the back-breaking and often dangerous work of digging, loading and unloading, and picking or the demeaning work of domestic service or cleaning.  This work is often seasonal, as with farm labor. Many are stupid enough to have dropped out of high school. The work is acceptable to officials such as parole officers. 

Below that are classes that don't do real work 

8. the destitute -- people dependent upon welfare, disability payments, aid from family members,  or who have questionable ways of making a living (such as numbers rackets or bootlegging) who can avoid being institutionalized.

9. the bottom out-of-sight -- people institutionalized or incarcerated long-term, if not permanently, for the safety of themselves (as for the stupid or insane) or danger to society (prison).  

In general it is far more likely to go down the scale than up. 

Creative people fit into a very different category. 

... the big difference in class is generally how one gets treated.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 08-17-2021

(08-16-2021, 09:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 03:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 01:55 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 03:56 AM))pbrower2a Wrote:
(08-14-2021, 03:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Thanks for clarifying. Myself, I don't notice that the reds have much difficulty aligning with the elites and the racists. It seems in fact like they are their two biggest priorities. I can't believe they don't know who they are voting for. Classic Xer for example is a huge fan of trickle-down economics. He knows that he supports the right of the big elite businessmen to be free of government regulation and taxes-- which are the way we liberals keep these elites in bounds-- and he thinks that this trickle-down, anti-welfare policy will help him in his business as a boss also.

The irony is that trickle-down economics might even be bad for his business. Air conditioning is still a luxury in the Twin Cities area as it isn't even so close as Kansas City or St. Louis... maybe even Des Moines. The neoliberal belief in free enterprise in the sense of enterprise having the ability to do whatever it wishes to the Common Man is consistent with freedom for elites and tyranny for the rest. Such is nothing good, and it has been done often. It has never worked well for the Common Man.  It has ensured, though, that some impressive castles and palaces be built!
The irony is that all of my customers (all of their wealth) are directly related to trickle down economics these days. I've told you all many times that I don't make money doing work for poor people like you. It doesn't matter whether they work for the government or work in the private sector or work for an organization tied to government funding or private organizations tied to private funding these days. They're all related and tied to trickle down economics. One can be dumb/naive and ignore/miss that fact/reality like little poor old you, financially opportunistic Eric looking for quick ways to make a buck off those who are of similar mind or hold similar beliefs as him and the  other clueless Libtards rolling with their emotions instead of listening and thinking for themselves these days.

Trickle-down economics is a Republican policy of giving breaks and tax cuts to the rich in hopes that the money will trickle down. This is financed by cutting off benefits to poor people, and by adding to the national debt. Of course you like to reverse the meaning of terms for your purposes.
Dude, we have the most diversified economy in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but we still have the largest economy in the world too. BTW, giving more benefits to largely unmotivated welfare recipients, common criminals and less productive people adds to the national debt too.

It does not, if we pay for it by taxing blokes like you.

The largest, most diversfied economy, and this-- the worst developed nation in the world, the most unequal, and the one with the most social and personal problems. A really sick nation, thanks to you guys and your trickle-down economics policy.

[Image: health_and_unequal_countries.jpg]

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 08-17-2021

(08-16-2021, 09:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, we have the most diversified economy in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but we still have the largest economy in the world too. BTW, giving more benefits to largely unmotivated welfare recipients,  common criminals and  less productive people adds to the national debt too.

Directed to Eric, but I'll respond too. FWIW, money handed to the poor is spent, funneled back into the economy and tends to be cost-neutral.  Money handed to the rich is saved or invested and contributes far less to the economy.  There are data gallore on this, so you can verify this for yourself.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 08-17-2021

(08-17-2021, 03:13 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 09:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, we have the most diversified economy in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but we still have the largest economy in the world too. BTW, giving more benefits to largely unmotivated welfare recipients, common criminals and less productive people adds to the national debt too.

It does not, if we pay for it by taxing blokes like you.

The largest, most diversfied economy, and this-- the worst developed nation in the world, the most unequal, and the one with the most social and personal problems. A really sick nation, thanks to you guys and your trickle-down economics policy.

[Image: health_and_unequal_countries.jpg]

Eric, if that graphs shows what Classic X'er considers "diversity", then some of the diversity of economic result and consequence isn't so welcome. A diversity between indulgence and abject deprivation serves no economic end other than to reward people for already being super-rich and to punish poverty. It fosters callousness among the rich and hopelessness among the poor and near-poor. It might be 'good' for suppressing demands for higher wages and working conditions, as if maintaining the terms of employment characteristic of an early-industrial society were a good idea in itself in an economic order that no longer needs such suffering.

(A hint to right-wingers like Classic X'er; the prime time in history for Commie takeovers in revolution is the early-industrial level of economic development, a probable result of the great suffering and disappointment of the working class).

Low life expectancy, underachievement in mathematics and literacy (and thus school completion), infant mortality, violence (homicides and imprisonment), a high teen birth rate, a general cynicism about life, obesity, mental illness, drug abuse and addiction, and economic hopelessness are not the sorts of diversity that I welcome. My idea of healthy diversity is an ethnic festival. Latino culture is rich; MS-13 is unwelcome.  

As economic conditions worsen in such an area as the Mountain South, living conditions also worsen. I remember seeing a map of opioid addiction in recent years, and the worst places for opioid addiction by county were no longer the urban ghettos in counties such as Cook (greater Chicago), Wayne (greater Detroit), Cuyahoga (Cleveland), and Philadelphia (Philadelphia) but instead in Appalachia and the Ozarks -- places that fifty years ago were exempt from it. Of course there is a generational aspect, in that old people like us two (65 is "old" in experience) who knew about the urban epidemic of heroin scare the Hell out of kids now about heroin. 

Use of meth, crack, and opioids for non-medical or shaky-medical reasons indicates a very messed-up life. 

...Poverty is bad for children and other living things. It is more likely to destroy character than to promote any work ethic. It compels people to live for meeting one basic need after another, typically the same basic need, every day. Classic X'er may be speaking of some genuine low-life characters, but for many worker, poverty is a perquisite. Maximal profits and executive compensation require mass poverty that compels people to make satanic choices in life. Poverty implies life toward the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, ensuring that people depend upon such things as candy, chips, mass-market beer, gratuitous sex (teen pregnancies are far more common among the ill-educated poor girls who are much more ignorant about sexuality than middle-class girls who typically know only one fewer thing about sex than do prostitutes -- what sex feels like, because middle-class girls know enough not to do it), and mindless mass low culture. It compels a very short-term view of the world, getting what one can while one can because there might easily be no tomorrow. 

One characteristic of the lower end of the social spectrum is heavy reliance upon television for entertainment. Fussell cites someone saying in the context of Class that television is not a patrician medium. Television is little more elevated today unless one has a streaming service such as that of the Berlin Philharmonic or watches PBS, occasional news feeds, and perhaps sporting events with "higher" class appeal such as golf or tennis. Relying exclusively upon television for entertainment (which now may include video games that did not proliferate until long after Fussell wrote Class) is not good for becoming what Benjamin Franklin called "healthy, wealthy, and wise". Note also that television is also good for giving people copious advertising for chips, sugary sodas, mass-market beer, and sweets -- none of them healthy to devour while vegetating before the idiot screen and to promote obesity. 

I can't imagine the degrading poverty so characteristic of neoliberal America achieving any personal consequences other than cynicism, anger, despair, and even madness. So what do we get again as a reward? More egregious indulgence by elites, and an intensified cycle of booms and busts. Maybe the middle class and skilled workers have had the boon of super-cheap restaurant meals and some high-quality entertainment (the middle class has more selectivity about television and the movies) and some rapid improvements in electronic gadgets, but those will do no good when AGW messes up the world because the fossil-fuel industry can maximize profits only by promoting heavy use of petroleum and coal. 

Someone like Classic X'er shows contempt for the poor. Maybe if people would only suffer more for investors and executives to create more wealth there would be more wealth -- not that it would ever trickle down. Contempt for the poor, including the working poor, enforces itself. He does not understand fully the connection between supply and demand -- that people need the means with which to demand something like air conditioning in a place just cool enough in the summer that heat waves are unpleasant but not quite lethal. (Heat waves statistically kill more people than do all the other extreme weather -- windstorms, floods, and cold waves combined). I have suggested before that air conditioning is a necessity in Kansas City, St. Louis, and Indianapolis; it is on the borderline of necessity in Omaha, Des Moines, and Chicago; and it is nice to have in places like the Twin Cities, Green Bay, and Grand Rapids. The brutal heat wave that bedeviled the Pacific Northwest this year could appear next time in the Land of 10,000 Lakes.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 08-17-2021

(08-17-2021, 09:14 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 09:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, we have the most diversified economy in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but we still have the largest economy in the world too. BTW, giving more benefits to largely unmotivated welfare recipients,  common criminals and  less productive people adds to the national debt too.

Directed to Eric, but I'll respond too. FWIW, money handed to the poor is spent, funneled back into the economy and tends to be cost-neutral.  Money handed to the rich is saved or invested and contributes far less to the economy.  There are data gallore on this, so you can verify this for yourself.
I'm going to ask you a common sense question, if you started out paying your kids and continued paying your kids with no strings attached or expectations in regards to development and advancement, would your kids have ever left home? Do I seem naive to you? Do I seem to be more seasoned, savvy and street smart than the typical Libtard? So, how many poor people and how much money do you need to give them to match the contributions that I and my business make every fucking year? Any fucking idea? Is there any fucking data that the Left has available to give you an idea? Aren't you the one who fucked up and told me that Covid originated from a Chinese food market? Dave, we are now rapidly approaching a dividing point and we will most likely still be around to see who ends up with the shitty end of the stick. I'm here to tell you in advance that I told you so. How much wealth do you have available Dave? Do you have enough to cover my loss so to speak?

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 08-17-2021

Classic X'er, watch your f---ing language!

Such indicates that you have problems with impulse control, impulse control being necessary in most white-collar jobs.

Street smarts may be good for survival in a very nasty world, but if I were an employer hiring someone I would be leery about anyone who bragged about them. Street smarts are a poor substitute for socialization to fit into our corporate world.

Consider yourself reported. It is best that we all stick to family-friendly language here.

I lose nothing by avoiding ugly profanity and unflattering stereotypes.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 08-17-2021

(08-17-2021, 12:24 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Eric, if that graphs shows what Classic X'er considers "diversity", then some of the diversity of economic result and consequence isn't so welcome. A diversity between indulgence and abject deprivation serves no economic end other than to reward people for already being super-rich and to punish poverty. It fosters callousness among the rich and hopelessness among the poor and near-poor. It might be 'good' for suppressing demands for higher wages and working conditions, as if maintaining the terms of employment characteristic of an early-industrial society were a good idea in itself. 

Low life expectancy, underachievement in mathematics and literacy (and thus school completion), infant mortality, violence (homicides and imprisonment), a high teen birth rate, a general cynicism about life, obesity, mental illness, drug abuse and addiction, and economic hopelessness are not the sorts of diversity that I welcome. My idea of healthy diversity is an ethnic festival. Latino culture is rich; MS-13 is unwelcome.  

As economic conditions worsen in such an area as the Mountain South, living conditions also worsen. I remember seeing a map of opioid addiction in recent years, and the worst places for opioid addiction by county were no longer the urban ghettos in counties such as Cook (greater Chicago), Wayne (greater Detroit), Cuyahoga (Cleveland), and Philadelphia (Philadelphia) but instead in Appalachia and the Ozarks -- places that fifty years ago were exempt from it. Of course there is a generational aspect, in that old people like us two (65 is "old" in experience) who knew about the urban epidemic of heroin scare the Hell out of kids now about heroin. 

Use of meth, crack, and opioids for non-medical or shaky-medical reasons indicates a very messed-up life. 

...Poverty is bad for children and other living things. It is more likely to destroy character than to promote any work ethic. It compels people to live for meeting one basic need after another, typically the same basic need, every day. Classic X'er may be speaking of some genuine low-life characters, but for many worker, poverty is a perquisite. Maximal profits and executive compensation require mass poverty that compels people to make satanic choices in life. Poverty implies life toward the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, ensuring that people depend upon such things as candy, chips, mass-market beer, gratuitous sex (teen pregnancies are far more common among the ill-educated poor girls who are much more ignorant about sexuality than middle-class girls who typically know only one fewer thing about sex than do prostitutes -- what sex feels like, because middle-class girls know enough not to do it), and mindless mass low culture. It compels a very short-term view of the world, getting what one can while one can because there might easily be no tomorrow. 

One characteristic of the lower end of the social spectrum is heavy reliance upon television for entertainment. Fussell cites someone saying in the context of Class that television is not a patrician medium. Television is little more elevated today unless one has a streaming service such as that of the Berlin Philharmonic or watches PBS, occasional news feeds, and perhaps sporting events with "higher" class appeal such as golf or tennis. Relying exclusively upon television for entertainment (which now may include video games that did not proliferate until long after Fussell wrote Class) is not good for becoming what Benjamin Franklin called "healthy, wealthy, and wise". Note also that television is also good for giving people copious advertising for chips, sugary sodas, mass-market beer, and sweets -- none of them healthy to devour while vegetating before the idiot screen and to promote obesity. 

I can't imagine the degrading poverty so characteristic of neoliberal America achieving any personal consequences other than cynicism, anger, despair, and even madness. So what do we get again as a reward? More egregious indulgence by elites, and an intensified cycle of booms and busts. Maybe the middle class and skilled workers have had the boon of super-cheap restaurant meals and some high-quality entertainment (the middle class has more selectivity about television and the movies) and some rapid improvements in electronic gadgets, but those will do no good when AGW messes up the world because the fossil-fuel industry can maximize profits only by promoting heavy use of petroleum and coal. 

Someone like Classic X'er shows contempt for the poor. Maybe if people would only suffer more for investors and executives to create more wealth there would be more wealth -- not that it would ever trickle down. Contempt for the poor, including the working poor, enforces itself. He does not understand fully the connection between supply and demand -- that people need the means with which to demand something like air conditioning in a place just cool enough in the summer that heat waves are unpleasant but not quite lethal. (Heat waves statistically kill more people than do all the other extreme weather -- windstorms, floods, and cold waves combined). I have suggested before that air conditioning is a necessity in Kansas City, St. Louis, and Indianapolis; it is on the borderline of necessity in Omaha, Des Moines, and Chicago; and it is nice to have in places like the Twin Cities, Green Bay, and Grand Rapids. The brutal heat wave that bedeviled the Pacific Northwest this year could appear next time in the Land of 10,000 Lakes.
I show contempt for those who make political careers and make millions off taking advantage of the poor. As far as the poor themselves, some are good (worth keeping) and some are bad (not worth keeping/expendable) just like everyone else. I'd say the Twin Cities gets about as hot and muggy as the southern states during the summer months. The only difference is we are only dealing with the heat and humidity for a few months a year.  Plus, the homes built after 1980 are heavily insulated and designed to retain heat during the winter months. So, the newer homes become ovens that slowly dissipate heat making them miserable to live in without AC. I'm telling you dude, air conditioning is way more important to people who live around here than you think these days.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 08-17-2021

(08-17-2021, 06:54 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Classic X'er, watch your f---ing language!

Such indicates that you have problems with impulse control, impulse control being necessary in most white-collar jobs.

Street smarts may be good for survival in a very nasty world, but if I were an employer hiring someone I would be leery about anyone who bragged about them. Street smarts are a poor substitute for socialization to fit into our corporate world.

Consider yourself reported. It is best that we all stick to family-friendly language here.
You are an adult right. I'm going to ask you a question, if I said fuck to your fucking face, would you treat me like a kid and correct me? So, what do you think your chances are being decked for doing something stupid like that these days? Street smarts are a necessity for survival and success in a larger and more competitive world. You live in Podunk right. You're on the side calling everyone else fascists, racists and whatever comes to mind or whatever some Democrat thinks will work. So, do you consider that SHIT family friendly? If you do. you BETTER PRAY I don't get a hold of you you backward minded piece of shit. Dude, when the day of reckoning comes, I suggest that you take the advice that I gave to fellow Libtard years ago.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 08-17-2021

Are fascism and racism "family-friendly"?

[Image: 220px-Majdanek_-_crematorium_ovens.JPG] [Image: 220px-Smoke_rising_from_Majdanek.jpg]

Majdanek extermination camp. Nazi-enslaved Poland during WWII. Crematorium and smoke. Nazi antisemitism was racist at its core, and it certainly destroyed Jewish families.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 08-17-2021

(08-17-2021, 08:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Are fascism and racism "family-friendly"?

[Image: 220px-Majdanek_-_crematorium_ovens.JPG]  [Image: 220px-Smoke_rising_from_Majdanek.jpg]

Majdanek extermination camp. Nazi-enslaved Poland during WWII. Crematorium and smoke. Nazi antisemitism was racist at its core, and it certainly destroyed Jewish families.
Come on PB, you should be able to come up with a better reply than this. So, do you think we are seeing the end of the Biden's presidency? I've heard that are about 10,000 American citizens who are trapped behind enemy lines right now. That's pretty serious dude.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 08-18-2021

(08-17-2021, 11:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-17-2021, 08:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Are fascism and racism "family-friendly"?

[Image: 220px-Majdanek_-_crematorium_ovens.JPG]  [Image: 220px-Smoke_rising_from_Majdanek.jpg]

Majdanek extermination camp. Nazi-enslaved Poland during WWII. Crematorium and smoke. Nazi antisemitism was racist at its core, and it certainly destroyed Jewish families.

Come on PB, you should be able to come up with a better reply than this. So, do you think we are seeing the end of the Biden's presidency? I've heard that are about  10,000 American citizens who are trapped behind enemy lines right now. That's pretty serious dude.

The only thing that I trust about the Taliban is its unwillingness to provoke foreign powers such as the USA into intervention. Guerilla activity is already underway in Afghanistan.

I have no desire to assume dark conspiracies until all other explanations (like incompetence) fail. The rapid collapse of a propped-up regime in Afghanistan suggests that people appointed to keep order sold out when the Taliban came knocking. Just think of the last days of the Republic of Vietnam; it could not have failed so quickly without people allegedly loyal to the anti-communist regime playing roles like those of Victor Ippolitovich (I am tempted to call him Hypocrite-ovich) Komarovsky in Doctor Zhivago. Such people have no loyalties except perhaps to immediate family members; they believe nothing. It's the people who have no core beliefs who fall for the vilest fanaticism because they care only for themselves and their self-image. Such people are epidemics of corruption waiting to happen. 

I have kept the Arendt quote active for a long time because it fits much of human nature. Just think of it: Donald Trump was trouble for America because he believed in nothing but himself, much like Victor Ippolitovich Komarovsky in Doctor Zhivago.   

Afghanistan had plenty of quislings waiting for an opportunity, and the Taliban gave them the opportunity -- much like ISIS in Iraq, with many of Satan Hussein's followers finding a cause as totalitarian as Ba'athism. Those quislings will use their NATO-supplied weapons and CIA training on behalf of the Taliban and be well rewarded, at least until the Taliban no longer needs them and of course gives them exactly what they deserve for their treachery.

OK, that literary allusion almost certainly misses you (I warn you -- the novel is a real tear-jerker), but shaky and seedy social orders foster people who learn how to play both sides of ideological warfare in the event that one or the other prevails... to do the dirty work against the other side. Komarovsky would have done much the same against the Bolsheviks on behalf of the old aristocracy had the Whites prevailed instead of the Reds in Russia. The regional commanders surrendered quickly after secreting funds into secret bank accounts abroad to support opulent lifestyles abroad once they bribed Taliban officials to let themselves and their families out.   

The Taliban has a reputation for incredible nastiness somewhere between the Nazi SS and the Khmer Rouge.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 08-18-2021

(08-17-2021, 06:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-17-2021, 09:14 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(08-16-2021, 09:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, we have the most diversified economy in the world. Correct me if I'm wrong but we still have the largest economy in the world too. BTW, giving more benefits to largely unmotivated welfare recipients,  common criminals and  less productive people adds to the national debt too.

Directed to Eric, but I'll respond too. FWIW, money handed to the poor is spent, funneled back into the economy and tends to be cost-neutral.  Money handed to the rich is saved or invested and contributes far less to the economy.  There are data gallore on this, so you can verify this for yourself.

I'm going to ask you a common sense question, if you started out paying your kids and continued paying your kids with no strings attached or expectations in regards to development and advancement, would your kids have ever left home? Do I seem naive to you? Do I seem to be more seasoned, savvy and street smart than the typical Libtard? So, how many poor people and how much money do you need to give them to match the contributions that I and my business make every fucking year? Any fucking idea? Is there any fucking data that the Left has available to give you an idea? Aren't you the one who fucked up and told me that Covid originated from a Chinese food market? Dave, we are now rapidly approaching a dividing point and we will most likely still be around to see who ends up with the shitty end of the stick. I'm here to tell you in advance that I told you so. How much wealth do you have available Dave? Do you have enough to cover my loss so to speak?

Odd that you mention never weening your children, because the ones actually doing it aroung here would be your political allies.  No, it doesn't make sense to pay people forever, but it does make sense to help them get what they're owed in life.  For at least the last 50 years (I'm starting my count with Nixon), the governement has favored business over people 100% of the time.  Price inflation?  OK, but we'll keep an eye on it.  Labor cost inflation?  <<DANGER >> Raise interest rates!  Cut benefits!  At some point, that has to not just cease but go into reverse.  That time may be now.

And what about those workers with more income?  Well, they'll start buying the things they've wanted forever but couldn't afford.  That spending becomes profits and wages, which keeps the economy humming along.  Economics is not a zero-sum game, unless pure greed makes it one.  It's vastly better to fuel growth.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 08-18-2021

(08-17-2021, 07:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-17-2021, 06:54 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Classic X'er, watch your f---ing language!

Such indicates that you have problems with impulse control, impulse control being necessary in most white-collar jobs.

Street smarts may be good for survival in a very nasty world, but if I were an employer hiring someone I would be leery about anyone who bragged about them. Street smarts are a poor substitute for socialization to fit into our corporate world.

Consider yourself reported. It is best that we all stick to family-friendly language here.

You are an adult right. I'm going to ask you a question, if I said (expletive deleted) to your (vile adjective redacted) face, would you treat me like a kid and correct me?

I don't know your body build, and I see from your language that you are the sort who would throw a punch if you got angry. You seem to get angry quickly.

If I were to work on one bad character trait that causes the most harm and the least good, then it would be on impulse control. By doing so I would be able to greatly reduce violent altercations that typically end in a brawl that culminates with a broken fist and a broken jaw. With more impulse control people would think twice about doing violence. We'd still have the conniving malefactors who do more structural damage to the economy, but it is the personal violence that legitimately scares most of us.  


Quote:So, what do you think your chances are being decked for doing something stupid like that these days?

To be sure, intellectual types can come up with the most sophisticated craziness and folly, but on the whole... you can consider yourself lucky that your survival does not depend upon defeating me in a contest determining IQ. (IQ is overrated as a predictor of the quality of life above about 125). In generally, the super-smart are more likely to run from a fist-fight than to stick around to deal and take blows. Some of us know how to manipulate stupider people, perhaps even flattering them.  

Quote:Street smarts are a necessity for survival and success in a larger and more competitive world.

Street smarts are necessary for living by the rules of racism, poverty, and powerlessness. Street smarts are necessary for MS-13, the Bloods, and the Crips. Many look at those losers and decide that they want. So figure that some Hispanic girl of 14 or 15 decides that she will buckle down to get good grades in rigorous studies, go to college, and become a teacher or a registered nurse. Maybe she brings back her potential good works back to the barrio -- or maybe she leaves it while being a schoolteacher or registered nurse in the suburbs.  Maybe some black boy discovers that he has a knack for such a trade as auto-body repair or repairing vehicle engines, decides that such work is better than dealing drugs, and does such... and ends up with a middle income (and a white wife).

Quote:You live in Podunk right.

Yes, and I also know its faults -- most obviously that I can seem a freak for, among other things, preferring classical music to country music and almost any East Asian cuisine (although I hear that Filipino cuisine is awful) to such things as biscuits-and-gravy, meat loaf, and potato salad. I prefer steamed vegetables that still have some taste, color, and texture to those cooked to the point at which they resemble oatmeal with an obnoxious flavor. I like my food spicy, which is inconsistent with my hick German-American heritage. I relate well to Jewish humor and intellectuality.

I wish that I had gotten the chance to stay in the San Francisco Bay Area. Had I gotten married, then my wife and I might have much in common except for appearance and ancestry. That is if I didn't marry a Jewish woman and not an Asian woman. 
  
Quote:You're on the side calling everyone else fascists, racists and whatever comes to mind or whatever some Democrat thinks will work.

No, I call only racists and fascists "racists" and "fascists"... and I am a bad match for Commies. I know the difference between conservatism and fascism, and I know well that if America ever went fascist, then the only way to survive as a recent conservative would be as a fellow-traveler of the fascists if one could not emigrate. That's how things went in the Third Reich. 

I have enough conservative characteristics to be an antithesis of Nazis, Stalinists, and Ba'athists. 

Objective reality is a better clue to existing messes than is free-floating anger like yours.   

Quote:So, do you consider that (vile word deleted) family friendly? If you do. you BETTER PRAY I don't get a hold of you you backward minded piece of shit. Dude, when the day of reckoning comes, I suggest that you take the advice that I gave to fellow Libtard years ago.

I have more in common with an Iranian liberal than I have in common with a fascist who is American to the extent that he could never be anything else -- and of course is a dreadful example of what it means to be an American!

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 08-19-2021

(08-17-2021, 07:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You are an adult right. I'm going to ask you a question, if I said [expletive deleted] to your [expletive deleted] face, would you treat me like a kid and correct me?

Well, you act like a kid.  You are obsessed with violence and foul language.  Still, you are passed the age where you can learn and have repeatedly demonstrated that you can't learn.  You are likely a little old to be sent to the principle's office.  It would be kinda futile.

RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 08-19-2021

(08-19-2021, 03:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(08-17-2021, 07:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You are an adult right. I'm going to ask you a question, if I said [expletive deleted] to your [expletive deleted] face, would you treat me like a kid and correct me?

Well, you act like a kid.  You are obsessed with violence and foul language.  Still, you are passed the age where you can learn and have repeatedly demonstrated that you can't learn.  You are likely a little old to be sent to the principle's office.  It would be kinda futile.

Ha ha. FLUNK YOU, Classic Xer!