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+---- Thread: The Partisan Divide on Issues (/thread-3410.html)
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RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 10-12-2021
(10-11-2021, 12:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: One thing I notice in the USA is the injustice applied to penalties for bad behavior. This week, authorities declined to prosecute police officers who shot and paralyzed young, black Mr. Blake 7 times at point blank range just for getting into his car. The excuse is that they thought he had a knife. This is the incident that sparked riots in Kenosha Wisconsin during which another terrorist from Illinois killed two more demonstrators and some buildings were burned. Meanwhile, some sports manager is under fire and may be fired just for saying something apparently-racist just once, 10 years ago. Saying something wrong is penalized more severely than doing something wrong that actually physically hurts someone.
He was armed with a knife at the time he was shot. You must not have been able to see what we all saw a few days later for some reason. The Blue media tends to ignore/remove/withhold a lot of important stuff these days. Fox News and other news stations are pretty much destroying all your credibility these days. Yes, John Gruden lost his coaching job over some stuff that he said over 10 years ago while he was working for ESPN. So, how long is it going to be before we start seeing women and minorities being fired for saying the same things about men, white people and other different people (LGTB and people associated with other minority groups) in general? I'm sure there's plenty of dirt out there on just about everyone these days. Hell, all you have to do is watch CNN or MSNBC to find some dirt on them that's worth recording these days. It's not like we care that the Democratic party is still as racist and as racially motivated as it was when I was a kid or that it's still using racism as a political tool like it did back then too. Like I said, I wouldn't want to be one of you when the country begins to split and the shit hits the fan.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 10-12-2021
(10-11-2021, 12:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Woke" culture in the USA seems to refer to whatever you want to call it. I have noticed that right-wing conspiracy theory/QAnon believers use this term to describe themselves, as well as supposedly politically-correct diversity/identity-obsessed left-wingers. But who is really "woke" or "awake"?Deny, deny, deny and if that doesn't work then send the FBI after them right. It's kind of strange that you're the Fascist/Fascist supporter today. Personally speaking, I don't see much of a difference between the communists and fascists these days. It's to bad the Democratic supporters are going to find themselves choosing between them as America moves on without them. So, how are you going to afford public education when the bulk of American taxpayers no longer support it? Do you have any idea how bad you guys are actually fucking yourselves right now and how tolerant and patient the rest of us are when it comes to grant Liberal's time to continue fucking themselves as most of America continue to do, go along with what most Americans tend to do/believe naturally. So, anyone smarter than the four of you put together show up since I've been away?
George Monbiot as usual nails it. He described how left-wingers are being seduced into this conspiracy theory "woke" culture:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power
"A few years ago, dreadlocked hippies spreading QAnon lies and muttering about a conspiracy against Donald Trump would have seemed unthinkable. Today, the old boundaries have broken down, and the most unlikely people have become susceptible to rightwing extremism.
The anti-vaccine movement is a highly effective channel for the penetration of far-right ideas into leftwing countercultures. For several years, anti-vax has straddled the green left and the far right......Anti-vax beliefs overlap strongly with a susceptibility to conspiracy theories. This tendency has been reinforced by Facebook algorithms directing vaccine-hesitant people towards far-right conspiracy groups......After left-ish political parties fell into line with corporate power, the right seized the language they had abandoned. Steve Bannon and Dominic Cummings brilliantly repurposed the leftwing themes of resisting elite power and regaining control of our lives. Now there has been an almost perfect language swap. Parties that once belonged on the left talk about security and stability while those on the right talk of liberation and revolt.
But I suspect it also has something to do with the issues we now face. A justified suspicion about the self-interest of big pharma clashes with the need for mass vaccination. The lockdowns and other measures required to prevent Covid-19 spreading are policies which, in other circumstances, would rightly be seen as coercive political control. Curtailing the pandemic, climate breakdown and the collapse of biodiversity means powerful agreements struck between governments – which can be hard to swallow for movements that have long fought multilateral power while emphasizing the local and the homespun...."
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 10-12-2021
(10-11-2021, 12:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It would be nice to know what this lady alleges without having to listen to an hour-long, rambling video.I'm sure her video isn't any worse than the video's of so called intellectuals and comedians that you've tried to use to convince me in the past.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 10-12-2021
(10-12-2021, 01:05 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(10-11-2021, 12:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It would be nice to know what this lady alleges without having to listen to an hour-long, rambling video.I'm sure her video isn't any worse than the video's of so called intellectuals and comedians that you've tried to use to convince me in the past.
At least they get to the point, and it doesn't take an hour.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 10-12-2021
(10-12-2021, 12:22 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(10-11-2021, 12:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: One thing I notice in the USA is the injustice applied to penalties for bad behavior. This week, authorities declined to prosecute police officers who shot and paralyzed young, black Mr. Blake 7 times at point blank range just for getting into his car. The excuse is that they thought he had a knife. This is the incident that sparked riots in Kenosha Wisconsin during which another terrorist from Illinois killed two more demonstrators and some buildings were burned. Meanwhile, some sports manager is under fire and may be fired just for saying something apparently-racist just once, 10 years ago. Saying something wrong is penalized more severely than doing something wrong that actually physically hurts someone.
He was armed with a knife at the time he was shot. You must not have been able to see what we all saw a few days later for some reason. The Blue media tends to ignore/remove/withhold a lot of important stuff these days. Fox News and other news stations are pretty much destroying all your credibility these days. Yes, John Gruden lost his coaching job over some stuff that he said over 10 years ago while he was working for ESPN. So, how long is it going to be before we start seeing women and minorities being fired for saying the same things about men, white people and other different people (LGTB and people associated with other minority groups) in general? I'm sure there's plenty of dirt out there on just about everyone these days. Hell, all you have to do is watch CNN or MSNBC to find some dirt on them that's worth recording these days. It's not like we care that the Democratic party is still as racist and as racially motivated as it was when I was a kid or that it's still using racism as a political tool like it did back then too. Like I said, I wouldn't want to be one of you when the country begins to split and the shit hits the fan.
Don't forget, I would be happy to be rid of you guys and so would many of us. It is very clear that our side would be the one to prosper and succeed after splitting off from you yahoos and bumpkins.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 10-16-2021
Just get the inoculation. The risk of losing all freedom while sedated and hooked up to a ventilator, where one has a great chance of never surviving and even if surviving has a high chance of being messed up to the extent of becoming incarcerated in a nursing facility is just not worth it. It won't matter where you are on a ventilator.
I had a great uncle who was put on a ventilator following some medical treatment. He walked into the hospital but never walked after that. I think of a ventilator with horror after that from just over 20 years ago.
The chance of dying if one contracts COVID-19 is higher than that of getting killed from a rattlesnake bite.A rattlesnake usually gives a fair warning of its danger (the rattle), as it prefers to scare people off (it is in more danger of being trampled by our feet which compare in pressure to the hooves of cattle than we are in danger of being bitten) to biting. People infected with COVID-19 are nearly as dangerous to people not inoculated as a rattlesnake but give no warning.
I did get unpleasant, delayed side-effects from the vaccine -- chest pains, shortness of breath, diarrhea, loss of sense of smell -- all symptoms of COVID-19. I figured that such made clear to me that
(1) I had done a good job avoiding COVID-19
(2) I would be in big trouble, if not dead, had I gotten or would I eventually get COVID-19, and
(3) that I was far safer in facing any existing strains of COVID-19.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 10-16-2021
(10-16-2021, 03:35 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Just get the inoculation. The risk of losing all freedom while sedated and hooked up to a ventilator, where one has a great chance of never surviving and even if surviving has a high chance of being messed up to the extent of becoming incarcerated in a nursing facility is just not worth it. It won't matter where you are on a ventilator.
I had a great uncle who was put on a ventilator following some medical treatment. He walked into the hospital but never walked after that. I think of a ventilator with horror after that from just over 20 years ago.
The chance of dying if one contracts COVID-19 is higher than that of getting killed from a rattlesnake bite.A rattlesnake usually gives a fair warning of its danger (the rattle), as it prefers to scare people off (it is in more danger of being trampled by our feet which compare in pressure to the hooves of cattle than we are in danger of being bitten) to biting. People infected with COVID-19 are nearly as dangerous to people not inoculated as a rattlesnake but give no warning.
I did get unpleasant, delayed side-effects from the vaccine -- chest pains, shortness of breath, diarrhea, loss of sense of smell -- all symptoms of COVID-19. I figured that such made clear to me that
(1) I had done a good job avoiding COVID-19
(2) I would be in big trouble, if not dead, had I gotten or would I eventually get COVID-19, and
(3) that I was far safer in facing any existing strains of COVID-19.
I agree. I am very pro-vaccine, and anti-anti-vax. Lots of misinformation has been spread by people who have no idea what the vaccine is or how it works. I am certainly glad I didn't watch that rambling amateur video, but I'm glad that apparently I found out what her stance is. I am certainly very well-informed on this whole issue. I am opposed to the post-truth era in general, and especially to post-truth when it comes to saying that "freedom" and "choice" consists of putting other people at risk. Vaccine mandates are nothing new, and the covid vaccines are certainly the best ones ever created.
Those interested in the truth about conspiracy theories in general and anti-vax in particular would do well to read my essay: https://philosopherswheel.com/thereasonforconspiracies.html
Among the many informative links at the bottom of this page is one explaining how the vaccine actually works, and what it is: https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/therapy/mrnavaccines/
George Monbiot did a wonderful essay on how conspiracy theories like anti-vax are diverting some left-wingers:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 10-16-2021
A GOOD video about how vaccines work, which is created by professionals who know what they are talking about, and get to the point.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 10-17-2021
Freedom is not an absolute commodity. I do not have the prerogative to drive in the northbound lanes of a southbound expressway. I do not have the right to drive while intoxicated.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 10-18-2021
(10-17-2021, 07:05 AM)taramarie Wrote:(10-16-2021, 04:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:(10-16-2021, 03:35 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Just get the inoculation. The risk of losing all freedom while sedated and hooked up to a ventilator, where one has a great chance of never surviving and even if surviving has a high chance of being messed up to the extent of becoming incarcerated in a nursing facility is just not worth it. It won't matter where you are on a ventilator.
I had a great uncle who was put on a ventilator following some medical treatment. He walked into the hospital but never walked after that. I think of a ventilator with horror after that from just over 20 years ago.
The chance of dying if one contracts COVID-19 is higher than that of getting killed from a rattlesnake bite.A rattlesnake usually gives a fair warning of its danger (the rattle), as it prefers to scare people off (it is in more danger of being trampled by our feet which compare in pressure to the hooves of cattle than we are in danger of being bitten) to biting. People infected with COVID-19 are nearly as dangerous to people not inoculated as a rattlesnake but give no warning.
I did get unpleasant, delayed side-effects from the vaccine -- chest pains, shortness of breath, diarrhea, loss of sense of smell -- all symptoms of COVID-19. I figured that such made clear to me that
(1) I had done a good job avoiding COVID-19
(2) I would be in big trouble, if not dead, had I gotten or would I eventually get COVID-19, and
(3) that I was far safer in facing any existing strains of COVID-19.
I agree. I am very pro-vaccine, and anti-anti-vax. Lots of misinformation has been spread by people who have no idea what the vaccine is or how it works. I am certainly glad I didn't watch that rambling amateur video, but I'm glad that apparently I found out what her stance is. I am certainly very well-informed on this whole issue. I am opposed to the post-truth era in general, and especially to post-truth when it comes to saying that "freedom" and "choice" consists of putting other people at risk. Vaccine mandates are nothing new, and the covid vaccines are certainly the best ones ever created.
Those interested in the truth about conspiracy theories in general and anti-vax in particular would do well to read my essay: https://philosopherswheel.com/thereasonforconspiracies.html
Among the many informative links at the bottom of this page is one explaining how the vaccine actually works, and what it is: https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/therapy/mrnavaccines/
George Monbiot did a wonderful essay on how conspiracy theories like anti-vax are diverting some left-wingers:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/leftwingers-far-right-conspiracy-theories-anti-vaxxers-power
Who is anti vax? I personally have been speaking about the loss of freedoms and destruction of businesses and human rights removal. Shall i get into the details? Or are you ok with that happening?
Talking about opposing mandates for vaccines is anti-vax in my book.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 10-18-2021
(10-17-2021, 10:25 AM)taramarie Wrote: I have nothing to say to people who are ok with removal of freedoms. I should be allowed to go to a grocery store and go back to my country of origin vaccine or not. You guys are no better than those who allowed blacks to have less freedoms.
You can do what is better for the culture, or what is better for the individual. Regeneracies are generally selfish times. Individual ights often triumph over the culture. Crises are times when a major issue or two threatens the old perceptions of how things had to be. Collective or group goals are more apt to triumph. The individual sacrifice for the sake of the culture.
In the US, the elite and racists got their way during the unravelling. Come the crisis, Covid, the alleged tax on the rich and the Floyd protest brought the collective good more into play. As a believer in cyclical theory, I can quite believe in the conflicting approaches taking turns having their time.
On vaccines, the US Supreme Court put the health of the country ahead of private rights. In the time of smallpox and polio, there was no doubt this was the way it had to be. Recently advances is medicine have made us forget what used to be held commonly necessary for the culture as a whole. Medical rights to control treatment have been invented which counter necessary practices. As Spock said, the good of the many outweigh the benefits to a few.
I don't mind backwards looking individuals putting themselves at risk, but they put the general public at risk as well.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Bob Butler 54 - 10-18-2021
With Colin Powel's death, I have seen a number of articles on what he stood for. CNN mentioned conscience and a pattern of complicated failures. It is also suggested anything that Trump stood for wasn't it.
But what I did not see was the Powell Doctrine. If you are going to war...
- Is a vital national security interest threatened?
- Do we have a clear attainable objective?
- Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
- Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
- Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
- Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
- Is the action supported by the American people?
- Do we have genuine broad international support?
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 10-19-2021
(10-17-2021, 10:25 AM)taramarie Wrote: I have nothing to say to people who are ok with removal of freedoms. I should be allowed to go to a grocery store and go back to my country of origin vaccine or not. You guys are no better than those who allowed blacks to have less freedoms.
In general the more dense the population the more rigid must be the social organization. I live a short distance from a place in which nobody cares if a dog someone walks defecates. Such a place (a ditch next to a grain field) is within walking distance from me. In the neighborhood in which I live I am expected to pick up and remove the droppings.
One can park one's car practically anywhere one wants when one is in a forest or a farming area. Of course there isn't much to walk to in such places. But in New York City, practically all parking has a price tag attached and is free only if one does so to make a lucrative transaction with a merchant or does so on official duty. Spitting on a street in Singapore will get you a severe fine. Doing so in the ditch that a dog can defecate in the presence of its owner without impunity is just one of those things.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 10-19-2021
(10-18-2021, 11:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: With Colin Powel's death, I have seen a number of articles on what he stood for. CNN mentioned conscience and a pattern of complicated failures. It is also suggested anything that Trump stood for wasn't it.
But what I did not see was the Powell Doctrine. If you are going to war...
That's what should be remembered.
- Is a vital national security interest threatened?
- Do we have a clear attainable objective?
- Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
- Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
- Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
- Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
- Is the action supported by the American people?
- Do we have genuine broad international support?
So let's look at World War II and see how that stands up retroactively to the Powell Doctrine.
1. The Axis Powers established beyond any question that they were not going to stop until they conquered the world. The world that they intended to impose was one of complete subjugation of such parts of Humanity as they did not seek to exterminate. They thus stood against every moral value that we cherished and still do. Life was to be a privilege. Liberty would be a farce. Pursuit of Happiness would be an absurdity, as most people would have an unrelieved duty to suffer for the leaders of the Master Race.
2. Extirpation of the Axis Powers would be difficult, and to win the peace we would have to offer something better to the Germans, Italians, and Japanese than what they suffered under.
3. The risks were so extreme that any cost other than the extinction of humanity, the destruction of industrial progress, and the obliteration of the stated values of America would be tolerable.
4. Maybe America could have offered arbitration of some disputes, but that would have only deferred the inevitable conflict.
5. We use overwhelming force against the Axis Powers, establish political orders unlikely to fall to the same thing, and leave in peace.
6. The only way to avoid conflict with them is complicity in their crimes, which is inexcusable.
7. Results suggest so.
8. From other Allies... of course. The language that FDR used against gangsters such as Dillinger could apply without much modification to sociopaths in charge of their countries.
Now, Vietnam:
1. Vietnam was potentially a desirable market for American business and had a copious supply of cheap labor that American corporations could exploit in sweatshops if it had a compliant regime. That fits one of the chronic examples of Orwellian rhetoric composed by American politicians: American interests abroad, which means American corporate investments abroad. If those depend upon the exploitation and degradation of the people who live in those countries, then those American corporate investments will require public expenditures as military force and the backing of hideous puppets to protect them.
The French saw Vietnam much the same way, and look what that did for them! FAIL!
2. Just hold ground so that you can prop up a dictatorial, corrupt regime that can never reform itself. FAIL!
3. That was the doctrine of the domino theory. First goes Vietnam and with it Laos and Cambodia, then Thailand and the Philippines, then Malaysia and Burma, then India and Australia, then... Communist insurgencies have typically succeeded in countries in the early stage of industrialization that have incompetent and corrupt leaders who sponsor a top-down command economy on behalf of economic elites, excessive centralization of power and economic activity, and a political order that can never address social inequity. Since democracy has failed in such societies, the most disciplined demagogues can offer Marx' vision of a State that simply dispenses with the aristocrats who own the land and the plutocrats who see only one criterion of economic progress... that that elite keeps getting everyone. FAIL! There has never been an effective Communist insurgency in Thailand, and the one in the Philippines suggests the moral failure of the dictator Ferdinand Marcos.
4. The option was to shore up other countries in the region. That was being done anyway, so intervention in the Vietnamese civil war could only be a FAIL!
5. Nobody thought of a time-frame for a decisive result in favor of American Corporate interests. FAIL!
6. So you dispense with some expendable cannon fodder, waging the war largely with troops too dumb to enlist for six years in Europe instead of two in Vietnam, people like Lieutenant Bill "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" Kilgore (Robert Duvall) in Apocalypse Now, or have the delusion that military service in Vietnam will jump-start political and commercial careers. You make an analogy to World War II that just does not fit. You make too few commitments with which to win, yet enough that you fall for the bad gamble of betting to win back one's losses. FAIL!
7. When there are demonstrations and riots against the war, and when draft dodging by smart people is commonplace, with the war creating social divisions, then I'd say that we have a FAIL!
8. Not even NATO members sent troops to Vietnam as gratitude for defending their countries from the dreaded attack through the Fulda Gap in central Germany. They had other priorities, like the Fulda Gap. FAIL!
OK, the Liberation of Kuwait.
1. Saddam Hussein was easy to demonize as a military menace. He had shown his willingness to engage in a brutal war, complete with gassing of the Kurdish people. He could get away with war with Iran (although Henry Kissinger said of the war between Iran and Iraq "I wish they could both lose") because Iran had its own pretensions. Once he started attacking countries that posed no threat to the rest of the world he became a moral nemesis. He had dangerous missiles, poison gas, and no scruples. Stopping an evil empire before it becomes a real menace is the lesson of the Anschluss.
2. End the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait by liberating the country.
3. Easily done in a war game in the Pentagon or the Kremlin.
4. Saddam Hussein got the chance to parley with people who could have gotten settlements. In the end, there was an offer by the Soviet Union that would have allowed Saddam Hussein to extricate his forces, but he would have had to dismantle his missiles. (The range of his missiles reached deep into the Soviet Union, and we all know what the Soviet Union dreads from powerful leaders who have no scruples but great territorial ambitions. The United States and other Coalition members would have likely accepted such.
5. Drive the Iraqi Armed Forces out of Kuwait and get a cease-fire that ensures peace between Iraq and Kuwait.
6. There would be some monitoring, not solely by Americans.
7. The popular culture was for the demise of Saddam Hussein. "Stick your poison gas up your... sassafras!", as (was it Hank Williams, Jr., put it). Saddam Hussein was easy to demonize for an Axis-style sneak attack.
8. We had plenty of allies. The United Nations called for Saddam Hussein to withdraw from Kuwait.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 10-19-2021
(10-17-2021, 07:03 AM)taramarie Wrote:(10-16-2021, 06:57 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: A GOOD video about how vaccines work, which is created by professionals who know what they are talking about, and get to the point.
"Professionals" as you know also once promoted the benefits of smoking among a host of other things. All it took was a bit of money and they would say anything the person wanted.
The sorts of "professionals" of which you speak who trivialized the dangerous character of narcotics, radiation, lead, cadmium, and tobacco have a knowledge of the scientific lingo (easy to develop if one has a smattering of scientific learning in college) are the people involved in public relations intended to bamboozle people into accepting dangerous features of life so that lucrative activities can be protected from political scrutiny. They are masters not so much of science as they are of public relations, often the commercial equivalent of Orwellian Newspeak. They are masterful liars, and in essence the people who tried to protect tobacco are the ones who deny or trivialize global warming. They keep lying as long as they get paid and they get paid well. Nobody works as a confidence man for a near-starvation wage.
I can't see the same level of sophistication (the sort that can concoct such an oxymoron as "clean coal" -- beware of oxymora in a debate -- you know, "scientific creationism", "scientific socialism", "scientific racialism", "national socialism") in the anti-vax movement. I see crank denial of science without any obvious commercial backing as there is for 'creation science'. American Big Business really does want its employees and customers inoculated, as do most American liberals. People usually on opposite sides can agree on something for once, which is a rarity in America for now.
Are you going to believe the scientists who have plentiful checks upon the acceptance of flawed research, like double-blind tests and peer review, or are you going to believe someone who has a hustle? I can't see any commercial interest in the continuing mass death of COVID-19. It's killing workers and customers and thwarting much economic activity that is usually lucrative. If you are thinking of the mortuary trade... the people dying of COVID-19 are generally unable to afford expensive funeral and burial plans. Sale of respirators? Ford Motor Company recently manufactured large numbers of them. Ford would rather be making motor vehicles again in a new time of prosperity.
Much of the disdain for inoculation comes from religious cranks. They might claim that the inoculation is the Mark of the Beast or that the inoculation creates some microscopic chip that allows the government to track them so that it can round them up for incarceration in concentration camps in which most people die either of execution or being worked to exhaustion on near-starvation rations. (In truth the Government can track your phone calls if you use a cell phone and of course your transactions on debit or credit cards. Having used my debit card, a food-aid card (I am on disability) and cell phones on trips largely to lake-shore communities in Michigan, I could be tracked by the federal government and the State of Michigan.
Then again, I am not a fugitive from justice. I know enough to not do bad things to people, like dealing drugs or imbibing in child pornography. (The real crooks use cash, and one can live very well for a time through dealings with them that allow them anonymity). If one isn't interesting to the government then one is safe from its scrutiny.
I was once in a debate on freedom of speech and the limits of the freedom of expression. Criminal speech has no protection. It is acceptable to depict a bank robbery in a or a literary work, but it is not lawful to say "This is a stick up. Everybody turn over the f---ing money and nobody will get f---ing hurt, and don't nobody trip no f---ing alarm!" at an active bank . (Bank robbery is a dumb crime, and most of the people doing it are addicts looking for funds for getting a fix. They are usually out of control and under-educated). Releasing official secrets is blatantly illegal, and it is usually tantamount to espionage or treachery. Violations of copyrights are illegal. Provocation of violence (the infamous "incitement to riot" is a prime example) is not protected. Libel and slander are civil torts, but they can be expensive at law. Pornography is tricky unless it involves children. Someone asked me what I would proscribe, and I responded "medical quackery".
Anti-vax stuff is medical quackery. It is sickening in the extreme that our latest ex-President expounded on it instead of telling people to wear masks, do social distancing, and sanitize almost every surface. Injecting bleach? UV light? Chloroquinone? Yuck! Later we have people hawking a worm-killing medication for horses. (I can imagine an ad involving "Mr. Ed" telling people to get inoculated and to leave Ivermectin to horses.
This would be the perfect spokesman... excuse me spokes-horse! Of course, Alan Young is dead, as is "Mr. Ed", the talking horse... but even I could write that script!
To say that those who push vaccine resistance for some religious or political agenda are horses' asses is to neglect that the derriere of a horse is the source of much of its power. The literal rear-end of horse is necessary for making one of these magnificent animals what it is. I'd compare such people instead to the fangs of venomous snakes.
Rights of the Individual vs Common Good of the Many - Bob Butler 54 - 10-19-2021
(10-19-2021, 03:51 PM)taramarie Wrote: Only speaking to bob atm so dont waste your time. Of course if bob continues to state i should not have basic rights he can bugger off too with the rest of you dictator boomers. If that is the way you guys are going, i cant wait till dictator boomers just die off.
My summation is that progressives are or ought to be in favor of democracy, human rights and equality. So yes, I'm in favor of human rights. What is dubious is when someone claims a right which infringes on the rights of others. In the three American crisis we were fighting to dismiss kings, to not be victims of colonial imperialism, to free slaves, to allow the industrial revolution to proceed, to regulate the economy, and to move away from isolationism. The current crisis includes reducing to eliminating structural racism, curing disease with honorable mentions to saving the environment and rebuilding infrastructure.
Not all of the above addresses democracy, human rights and equality directly. In fact there is often an idealistic motivation which addresses the three, and an economic motivation which more directly involves the elites.
Now the issue of the moment seems to be in curing disease. In generally, if one does not want to be cured, fine. I won't oppose any supposed right to kill one's self. But you have to balance individual rights against the general welfare of the people. If for some reason you are against the vaccine this would be fine if you took all the other precautions, if you showed considerable care for the well being of others. This does not generally seem to be the case. At least in the US, the anti vaccination crowd is also generally the anti mask and anti other precaution folk. I do not support the right to murder others. Mandatory vaccines are supported by the Supreme Court and were a big part of past cures. The right to murder people is entirely recently created and to my mind abhorrent and does not exist.
Now many governments seem to be looking for a monopoly on delivering vaccines on their own turf. In your case, moving between countries and preferring the policy of the previous country is understandable, but you made a choice. I can sympathize. I can wish for an individual ability to chose from the many available treatments. But, alas, we are not going to make government go away this crisis. In the US, we have to choose between those treatments given emergency use authorization by the government. You are stuck with a different territory.
But I will repeat the right to murder others is a delusion, does not exist.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - David Horn - 10-20-2021
(10-17-2021, 10:25 AM)taramarie Wrote: I have nothing to say to people who are ok with removal of freedoms. I should be allowed to go to a grocery store and go back to my country of origin vaccine or not. You guys are no better than those who allowed blacks to have less freedoms.
Actually no, you shouldn't be allowed to do as you please, if you are a threat to others. I suspect you will be considered a threat in NZ, because the vaccination rate there is still low and you are an unknown quantity arriving from the outside. They als have rights, and the rights on many outweigh the rights of the few.
Beleive me, we have far too many in the US making similar arguments, getting others sick and occassionally leading to thier deaths. I have no sympathy with the argument you're making.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Eric the Green - 10-20-2021
(10-20-2021, 01:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:(10-17-2021, 10:25 AM)taramarie Wrote: I have nothing to say to people who are ok with removal of freedoms. I should be allowed to go to a grocery store and go back to my country of origin vaccine or not. You guys are no better than those who allowed blacks to have less freedoms.
Actually no, you shouldn't be allowed to do as you please, if you are a threat to others. I suspect you will be considered a threat in NZ, because the vaccination rate there is still low and you are an unknown quantity arriving from the outside. They als have rights, and the rights on many outweigh the rights of the few.
Beleive me, we have far too many in the US making similar arguments, getting others sick and occassionally leading to thier deaths. I have no sympathy with the argument you're making.
Well said, I agree.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - pbrower2a - 10-20-2021
(10-20-2021, 01:38 PM)David Horn Wrote:(10-17-2021, 10:25 AM)taramarie Wrote: I have nothing to say to people who are ok with removal of freedoms. I should be allowed to go to a grocery store and go back to my country of origin vaccine or not. You guys are no better than those who allowed blacks to have less freedoms.
Actually no, you shouldn't be allowed to do as you please, if you are a threat to others. I suspect you will be considered a threat in NZ, because the vaccination rate there is still low and you are an unknown quantity arriving from the outside. They als have rights, and the rights on many outweigh the rights of the few.
Beleive me, we have far too many in the US making similar arguments, getting others sick and occassionally leading to thier deaths. I have no sympathy with the argument you're making.
Well said.
I have been mocking loud-mouth fools like the late Bob Enyart (a real creep -- homophobe, religious bigot, and anti-abortion crusader) who militantly opposed masks and ended up dead of COVID-19. Stupidity is not and never has been a survival value except in a place like Afghanistan, North Korea, or Syria today, where rational thought can get one killed.
Colin Powell reminds us: anyone with a weakened immune system is at grave risk from COVID-19 even from an exposure of the mildest sort. To be sure, with the myeloma and Parkinsonism that he had, one or the other would have killed him anyway. Someone failed to wear a mask. I wouldn't wish myeloma (I knew someone who died of it and it wasn't pretty), Parkinson's (it killed my mother), or COVID-19 on anyone.
I keep a mask handy.
RE: The Partisan Divide on Issues - Classic-Xer - 10-20-2021
(10-16-2021, 08:24 AM)taramarie Wrote:They're trying to do that here too. The elder blue boomers have no alternative solution to their major problem (the alternative is death for them) than to try and force everyone to get vaccinated whether they actually need it or not as a means to save/protect their own asses. I don't know if you have noticed over the years but the elder blue boomers aren't very good at practicing what they preach or living up to the expectations that they place on others. Fortunately, they are much weaker here than they are elsewhere in the world. The elder blue boomers aren't the majority here. I don't know where Dave gets the silly notion in his head that he and the others are more important in the greater scheme of things than everyone below them in age. America is going to revolt and pretty much introduce them to a level of overall hardship that they have never seen. In other words, America is going to start fucking them over big time and leave them behind to deal with all the consequences.(10-09-2021, 10:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(09-23-2021, 06:45 AM)taramarie Wrote: You know what? The non extremist right wingers have a point. Watch this and i would say watch the whole video before commenting as it is vital to hear a North Korean defector's POV of the state of America and I will say it extends to other countries as well, especially now. It is very important to watch with an open mind and take in her concerns that the country that she is in now, is starting to remind her of where she ran away from. There are the beginnings of a communist regime beginning to take form which concerns her. Now, I am a left winger from New Zealand. But after learning some things along the way through life recently, I am beginning to agree with her, that there are some major issues within the left wing that i listen to not only from New Zealand but especially in the USA and i have friends there and i used to agree with them. Now i consider them in some ways very extremist, and this video will explain why. Now as i do not like cancel culture nor the foolish woke culture, I am open for a discussion on this. I hope our right wingers come back and chime in also as i am very curious to hear from them as well as the left wingers here.You're not telling me anything that I haven't known for many years. I'm glad to see that you've been enlightened (wised up) so to speak. Woke Culture hasn't really tangled with American Culture yet. It's mainly tangling with the American Left right now. I predict that when it does, there will be no Woke survivors. You see, American Cancel Culture is actually more dangerous than them. American Cancel Culture can and will destroy them. ( I'm a product of REAL American Culture). The bulk of the people you see are products of academia or Facebook or Twitter. It didn't take REAL American Culture very long to undermine, weaken and eliminate the quasi socialist regime that controlled the old forum before you began posting. I should know, I played a significant role in it's demise.
Enjoy this very insightful video.
Well i am actually on your side regarding vaccines as well. Do you realize here in Europe they are segregating vaccinated and unvaccinated people and turning unvaccinated people into second class citizens removed of basic rights. Some areas they are not allowed to go do basic shopping. I will be stripped of my rights to my homeland come february the 1st and not be allowed back in new zealand. These mother fuckers think its completely ok to strip people of liberty and freedom and human rights. These bastards turned this left winger into one standing on the side of the right wing because we should always have freedom of choice. You guys want the vaccine be my guest. But you do not get to dictate what someone else does with their body. What happened to the left wing...my body my choice!? Because of this those fucking dictator lefties want to strip people of basic rights. Congrats guys, you pushed this lefty too far. You do not get to blackmail, bribe and strip people of basic rights and turn them into second class citizens. You are no better than the dictators of earlier periods. Stamping a fucking yellow star on Jews and dehumanizing them. We are at that era or if you like black vs white era. They had less rights same as jews. Why should i have my rights removed. If anyone here justifies it i know what you are.