(01-28-2020, 05:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 03:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-27-2020, 11:32 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: These days, cities are getting more expensive to live in, especially on the coasts. Poor people can't afford to live in San Francisco or New York anymore. Liberal white people are more likely to live there, unless they are rich liberal non-white people. Maybe what you say about the hood applies to some other cities like Detroit, Milwaukee or Baltimore, but gentrification is also happening in some of these cities. The urban areas are where the jobs are and where the interesting people live. Young, bright people don't live in red, rural areas where people vote by 8 to 1 margins for Trump. These people are dumb and boring. Young people want opportunity and fun. So they move to blue cities, and leave the red areas to those who prefer a declining banana republic or who feel abandoned, resentful and stuck there and drugged up. 

Dude, anything we support or oppose can be viewed or labelled as racist at this point. So, whatever, keep doing it and pray that your leadership doesn't hurt you worse than it's hurting you know with us, does anything stupid that actually impacts us and requires a nasty response  or your state doesn't get itself further in trouble  and collapse. You should also know that when you call  people racists who aren't racists those people will be offended/insulted. Now, I'd love to have an opportunity to challenge one the  dumb  racist blacks or one of them dumb sexist women or dumb Islamic racists or dumb narcissists or dumb socialists of yours in House today. Also, I wouldn't advise that you  continue using us as your scapegoats either. I mean, I watched as people were getting beaten by angry minorities in the streets of LA during the 90's.

Your part of the Right -- working-class white people who support the Tea Party politically -- does not establish the economic ethos that has developed almost without a break for forty years. The real rulers, the asset owners and bureaucratic elites, on have successfully imposed an ethos in which on behalf of their swinish selves, everything possible becomes a privilege of high price, toil becomes a harsh duty with minuscule reward, and life becomes a grim struggle for what should never be a privilege -- survival. Monopolization and vertical integration get the reward of tax cuts for classes that get the passive income of economic rent which has become the majority of income. We get an illusion of prosperity while more of us go poor despite working harder and longer under harsher discipline. So we have increasingly blatant expressions of indulgence in a society that increasingly resembles a Marxist stereotype of capitalism.

We even have our 'opiate of the masses' in dumbed-down entertainment as a diversion from thinking such 'troublesome' thoughts as the need to supplant the every-man-for-himself ethos that the Master Class has imposed. We get a celebrity circus as an anodyne. Wise people can see through it; fools accept it. You, Classic X'er, accept what the economic elites tell you. We even get someone who has made his income either as a landlord to people who must live in Greater New York to avail themselves of certain job opportunities or by supplying schlock entertainment. I found it easy to "fire" The Apprentice with my remote control. 

The conspicuous consumption of the Master Class does about as much good for most of us as did the expensive clothes, jewelry, and cars of wildly-successful criminals of the ghettos in the Boom Awakening to the desperately-poor. The choice of our economic elites, one that they can enforce, is that of cream for the princess' cat over milk for the baby of a farm laborer. Your part of the American political spectrum is the last, except for the amoral and rapacious elites who exploit us all, to recognize the reality of a sick society. The generational cycle itself is creating a desire for a child-friendly order. Severe poverty is not compatible with a child-friendly culture forming under your nose yet invisible to you.

(01-28-2020, 05:47 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 04:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, ignoring major problems and shifting problems on others and blaming others for problems doesn't make problems go away. I don't know if you will live long enough to see the carnage and violence as the progressive era of old begins to come to end. I hope not for you sake. I don't have a problem with my retirement plan. I'm an X'er you know. I'd say it's better to be wealthier and more self sufficient than being more dependent like must blues these days. The reds themselves will be fine regardless of the situation because the reds are already committed to taking off themselves/their own so to speak.

The way I read it, there was a progressive era from FDR to LBJ.  The conservative policies dominated between Nixon and at least Trump, crashing America’s greatness.  The impeachment of Trump and the ‘OK Boomer’ meme hint that another progressive time may be coming.  Even if so, it is not here yet.

I do believe the reds are more independent, could survive a bad time cleaner.  On the other hand blues work together better, could make a good time better.  The latter seems more likely.

(01-28-2020, 01:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 05:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 03:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-27-2020, 11:32 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: These days, cities are getting more expensive to live in, especially on the coasts. Poor people can't afford to live in San Francisco or New York anymore. Liberal white people are more likely to live there, unless they are rich liberal non-white people. Maybe what you say about the hood applies to some other cities like Detroit, Milwaukee or Baltimore, but gentrification is also happening in some of these cities. The urban areas are where the jobs are and where the interesting people live. Young, bright people don't live in red, rural areas where people vote by 8 to 1 margins for Trump. These people are dumb and boring. Young people want opportunity and fun. So they move to blue cities, and leave the red areas to those who prefer a declining banana republic or who feel abandoned, resentful and stuck there and drugged up. 

Dude, anything we support or oppose can be viewed or labelled as racist at this point. So, whatever, keep doing it and pray that your leadership doesn't hurt you worse than it's hurting you know with us, does anything stupid that actually impacts us and requires a nasty response  or your state doesn't get itself further in trouble  and collapse. You should also know that when you call  people racists who aren't racists those people will be offended/insulted. Now, I'd love to have an opportunity to challenge one the  dumb  racist blacks or one of them dumb sexist women or dumb Islamic racists or dumb narcissists or dumb socialists of yours in House today. Also, I wouldn't advise that you  continue using us as your scapegoats either. I mean, I watched as people were getting beaten by angry minorities in the streets of LA during the 90's.

Your part of the Right -- working-class white people who support the Tea Party politically -- does not establish the economic ethos that has developed almost without a break for forty years. The real rulers, the asset owners and bureaucratic elites, on have successfully imposed an ethos in which on behalf of their swinish selves, everything possible becomes a privilege of high price, toil becomes a harsh duty with minuscule reward, and life becomes a grim struggle for what should never be a privilege -- survival. Monopolization and vertical integration get the reward of tax cuts for classes that get the passive income of economic rent which has become the majority of income. We get an illusion of prosperity while more of us go poor despite working harder and longer under harsher discipline. So we have increasingly blatant expressions of indulgence in a society that increasingly resembles a Marxist stereotype of capitalism.

We even have our 'opiate of the masses' in dumbed-down entertainment as a diversion from thinking such 'troublesome' thoughts as the need to supplant the every-man-for-himself ethos that the Master Class has imposed. We get a celebrity circus as an anodyne. Wise people can see through it; fools accept it. You, Classic X'er, accept what the economic elites tell you. We even get someone who has made his income either as a landlord to people who must live in Greater New York to avail themselves of certain job opportunities or by supplying schlock entertainment. I found it easy to "fire" The Apprentice with my remote control. 

The conspicuous consumption of the Master Class does about as much good for most of us as did the expensive clothes, jewelry, and cars of wildly-successful criminals of the ghettos in the Boom Awakening to the desperately-poor. The choice of our economic elites, one that they can enforce, is that of cream for the princess' cat over milk for the baby of a farm laborer. Your part of the American political spectrum is the last, except for the amoral and rapacious elites who exploit us all, to recognize the reality of a sick society. The generational cycle itself is creating a desire for a child-friendly order. Severe poverty is not compatible with a child-friendly culture forming under your nose yet invisible to you.

The so called economic elites have little to no influence over me or my decisions related to me or my family. The American right isn't media or all that market driven these days. The American right is pretty much content with sticking to doing things and succeeding it's own way these days. The liberals on the other hand are less independent/mature/financially stable and more herd minded (cliquey) and more susceptible to both influences. Look at you, you're a prime example of the liberal mentality. I assume that you can picture yourself being mistreated (told where you messed up or why you failed or where you didn't do what you should have done) and fired by Trump which is why you hate Trump.

(01-28-2020, 12:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 10:32 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 04:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I don't have a problem with my retirement plan. I'm an X'er you know. I'd say it's better to be wealthier and more self sufficient than being more dependent like must blues these days. The reds themselves will be fine regardless of the situation because the reds are already committed to taking off themselves/their own so to speak.

Using those dreaded statistics shows that robust social infrastructure leads to more satisfying lives and, surprisingly, to greater entrepreneurship. That's why the Scandinavian countries are always rated so high on total life satisfaction.  The US never gets above the mid-20s.

The Scandinavians are Scandinavians. You forget that the US isn't comprised of mainly Scandinavians these days. I'd say Minnesota ranks pretty close to most Scandinavian countries these days. Hint...Minnesota ain't all that liberal like you these days.  Look at our obvious differences and ask how can two Americans have such a major difference in their views of their country and countrymen. I seriously doubt that Norway has anti-Norway liberals like ours to contend with who view themselves as being above the law in Norway who refuse to recognize the laws of Norway. How easy would it be for Norway to do the unthinkable and boot the troublesome high almighty liberals out of Norway. It would be pretty easy compared to here because it would require a state by state constitutionally friendly  approach to accomplish that  task here.

(01-28-2020, 12:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 10:36 AM)David Horn Wrote: Being independent means one is better able to fend for oneself by oneself.  Being more community focused just shifts the paradigm to the commonweal.  I would argue that, overall, the more communal option is better for most people, but less so for the best of the best.

Being independent means being able to fend for oneself and others during tough times without relying on government. The country boys could bring that lunatic of yours down to his knees and basically shut down the liberal government of your state if they wanted to as they demonstrated the other day. Oh, I heard they didn't cause any trouble or make a big mess and leave a big mess behind for others to pickup up when they left either.

(01-28-2020, 01:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 05:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 03:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-27-2020, 11:32 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: These days, cities are getting more expensive to live in, especially on the coasts. Poor people can't afford to live in San Francisco or New York anymore. Liberal white people are more likely to live there, unless they are rich liberal non-white people. Maybe what you say about the hood applies to some other cities like Detroit, Milwaukee or Baltimore, but gentrification is also happening in some of these cities. The urban areas are where the jobs are and where the interesting people live. Young, bright people don't live in red, rural areas where people vote by 8 to 1 margins for Trump. These people are dumb and boring. Young people want opportunity and fun. So they move to blue cities, and leave the red areas to those who prefer a declining banana republic or who feel abandoned, resentful and stuck there and drugged up. 

Dude, anything we support or oppose can be viewed or labelled as racist at this point. So, whatever, keep doing it and pray that your leadership doesn't hurt you worse than it's hurting you know with us, does anything stupid that actually impacts us and requires a nasty response  or your state doesn't get itself further in trouble  and collapse. You should also know that when you call  people racists who aren't racists those people will be offended/insulted. Now, I'd love to have an opportunity to challenge one the  dumb  racist blacks or one of them dumb sexist women or dumb Islamic racists or dumb narcissists or dumb socialists of yours in House today. Also, I wouldn't advise that you  continue using us as your scapegoats either. I mean, I watched as people were getting beaten by angry minorities in the streets of LA during the 90's.

Your part of the Right -- working-class white people who support the Tea Party politically -- does not establish the economic ethos that has developed almost without a break for forty years. The real rulers, the asset owners and bureaucratic elites, on have successfully imposed an ethos in which on behalf of their swinish selves, everything possible becomes a privilege of high price, toil becomes a harsh duty with minuscule reward, and life becomes a grim struggle for what should never be a privilege -- survival. Monopolization and vertical integration get the reward of tax cuts for classes that get the passive income of economic rent which has become the majority of income. We get an illusion of prosperity while more of us go poor despite working harder and longer under harsher discipline. So we have increasingly blatant expressions of indulgence in a society that increasingly resembles a Marxist stereotype of capitalism.

We even have our 'opiate of the masses' in dumbed-down entertainment as a diversion from thinking such 'troublesome' thoughts as the need to supplant the every-man-for-himself ethos that the Master Class has imposed. We get a celebrity circus as an anodyne. Wise people can see through it; fools accept it. You, Classic X'er, accept what the economic elites tell you. We even get someone who has made his income either as a landlord to people who must live in Greater New York to avail themselves of certain job opportunities or by supplying schlock entertainment. I found it easy to "fire" The Apprentice with my remote control. 

The conspicuous consumption of the Master Class does about as much good for most of us as did the expensive clothes, jewelry, and cars of wildly-successful criminals of the ghettos in the Boom Awakening to the desperately-poor. The choice of our economic elites, one that they can enforce, is that of cream for the princess' cat over milk for the baby of a farm laborer. Your part of the American political spectrum is the last, except for the amoral and rapacious elites who exploit us all, to recognize the reality of a sick society. The generational cycle itself is creating a desire for a child-friendly order. Severe poverty is not compatible with a child-friendly culture forming under your nose yet invisible to you.

The so called economic elites have little to no influence over me or my decisions related to me or my family. The American right isn't media or all that market driven these days. The American right is pretty much content with sticking to doing things and succeeding it's own way these days. The liberals on the other hand are less independent/mature/financially stable and more herd minded (cliquey) and more susceptible to both influences. Look at you, you're a prime example of the liberal mentality. I assume that you can picture yourself being mistreated (told where you messed up or why you failed or where you didn't do what you should have done) and fired by Trump which is why you hate Trump.

(01-28-2020, 03:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Oh, really? They decide what politicians and political causes get the campaign funds, and those politicians and cases are the ones most amenable to the class interests of our economic elites -- cheap labor toiling under brutal management, lax regulation, monopolized markets, low taxes, wars for profit, and privatization of everything possible. They seek whatever they can get away with, and that means possibly things not quite nasty enough to provoke a proletarian revolution.Life simply gets harder, and for what?

With liberals, life gets better as technology advances. People get better pay and working conditions instead of being squeezed as workers and bled as consumers. I question that we are more reckless with personal spending; we are just as capable of savings and investment as right-wingers. (If anything, those "investors" are more likely to get fleeced in hustles of coins and precious metals as are people on the Right. I actually made some good investments in the spring of 2009... and it is a good thing that I did because those at least bought me a car when I lost everything else with my father in a nursing home).   

People with solid income can spend everything that they have -- but people with low incomes can only deny themselves what they want.  We liberals do not all have the same culture (as should be shown in our ethnic diversity). Honest [pay for honest work is the best that most people can hope for -- but that is adequate so long as one has skills.

Oh, by the way -- Donald Trump is a horrible person. You misread me when I said that I "fired" his bad TV (The Apprentice) show with my remote control much as I could "fire" a baseball game on the air when one team is down 10-2 in the fourth inning. I have never been an employee of Donald Trump or been on his TV show. I prefer to be around people who don't brag about grabbing women by their "kitty-cats". Trump has proved too amoral, immoral, and narcissistic to be a desirable President.  I do not blame him for my economic hardships. I blame a disability.

(01-28-2020, 02:15 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 12:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: .

The Gun Guys are a joke, and they proved that on this last trip to Richmond.  Most of their potential physical opposition consisted of a few State Police officers -- many of them women.  They marched around acting tough, and left.  I don't think they'll be back soon.

(01-28-2020, 04:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 03:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Oh, really? They decide what politicians and political causes get the campaign funds, and those politicians and cases are the ones most amenable to the class interests of our economic elites -- cheap labor toiling under brutal management, lax regulation, monopolized markets, low taxes, wars for profit, and privatization of everything possible. They seek whatever they can get away with, and that means possibly things not quite nasty enough to provoke a proletarian revolution.Life simply gets harder, and for what?

With liberals, life gets better as technology advances. People get better pay and working conditions instead of being squeezed as workers and bled as consumers. I question that we are more reckless with personal spending; we are just as capable of savings and investment as right-wingers. (If anything, those "investors" are more likely to get fleeced in hustles of coins and precious metals as are people on the Right. I actually made some good investments in the spring of 2009... and it is a good thing that I did because those at least bought me a car when I lost everything else with my father in a nursing home).   

People with solid income can spend everything that they have -- but people with low incomes can only deny themselves what they want.  We liberals do not all have the same culture (as should be shown in our ethnic diversity). Honest pay for honest work is the best that most people can hope for -- but that is adequate so long as one has skills.

Oh, by the way -- Donald Trump is a horrible person. You misread me when I said that I "fired" his bad TV (The Apprentice) show with my remote control much as I could "fire" a baseball game on the air when one team is down 10-2 in the fourth inning. I have never been an employee of Donald Trump or been on his TV show. I prefer to be around people who don't brag about grabbing women by their "kitty-cats". Trump has proved too amoral, immoral, and narcissistic to be a desirable President.  I do not blame him for my economic hardships. I blame a disability.

The cheap labor (cheap illegal immigrant labor and cheap foreign labor here and abroad) are mainly on your side and being largely protected and politically represented by your side these days. You bought in even though you'll never see the financial benefits that your so called elites, politicians and their corrupt officials are going to receive from the economic elites supporting your side. I mean, Bloomberg is going to invest a billion in the effort to defeat Trump and kill phase II of the Chinese trade deal for China these days. You guys and your insatiable need for a liberal white knight and a liberal government to protect you from evil Donald Trump and the evil Tea Party these days. Chuckle, chuckle. What a joke, they have you pegged too. You'd have to pack up and move to a sanctuary state to receive some sort of benefit from those taking advantage of them. I don't employ cheap illegal or do business with cheap immigrant labor. I employ Americans who aren't cheap or even close to being as cheap and do business with American business's and American customers. Yes, we've seen the liberals flex their muscles and we seen their groups flex theirs too be neither compare to what 60 million us could do to them. I mean, who are we?

(01-28-2020, 02:11 PM)David Horn Wrote: Pick any Scandinavian country.  Given the lousy weather and limited resources (Norway has oil, but that's about it these days), they all do very well.  Are there discontents?  Of course -- they're everywhere.  The big difference: most of the country is OK with high taxes for great benefits.  I don't see the Norwegians running the social democrats away so they can go hard capitalist.  The same applies in Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland.

(01-28-2020, 06:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 02:11 PM)David Horn Wrote: Pick any Scandinavian country.  Given the lousy weather and limited resources (Norway has oil, but that's about it these days), they all do very well.  Are there discontents?  Of course -- they're everywhere.  The big difference: most of the country is OK with high taxes for great benefits.  I don't see the Norwegians running the social democrats away so they can go hard capitalist.  The same applies in Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland.

I don't see the social Democrats in those countries allowing their people to have the freedom do that either.

(01-28-2020, 05:47 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 04:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, ignoring major problems and shifting problems on others and blaming others for problems doesn't make problems go away. I don't know if you will live long enough to see the carnage and violence as the progressive era of old begins to come to end. I hope not for you sake. I don't have a problem with my retirement plan. I'm an X'er you know. I'd say it's better to be wealthier and more self sufficient than being more dependent like must blues these days. The reds themselves will be fine regardless of the situation because the reds are already committed to taking off themselves/their own so to speak.

The way I read it, there was a progressive era from FDR to LBJ.  The conservative policies dominated between Nixon and at least Trump, crashing America’s greatness.  The impeachment of Trump and the ‘OK Boomer’ meme hint that another progressive time may be coming.  Even if so, it is not here yet.

I do believe the reds are more independent, could survive a bad time cleaner.  On the other hand blues work together better, could make a good time better.  The latter seems more likely.

(01-28-2020, 07:23 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- l would argue progressive from Roosevelt 2 Jimmy Carter. Jimmy was the last old school dem Prez.  lnterestingly he backs Bernie, who despite calling himself a democratic socialist is really an old school dem, like from back in the 60s & 70s

(01-28-2020, 07:23 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 05:47 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 04:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, ignoring major problems and shifting problems on others and blaming others for problems doesn't make problems go away. I don't know if you will live long enough to see the carnage and violence as the progressive era of old begins to come to end. I hope not for you sake. I don't have a problem with my retirement plan. I'm an X'er you know. I'd say it's better to be wealthier and more self sufficient than being more dependent like must blues these days. The reds themselves will be fine regardless of the situation because the reds are already committed to taking off themselves/their own so to speak.

The way I read it, there was a progressive era from FDR to LBJ.  The conservative policies dominated between Nixon and at least Trump, crashing America’s greatness.  The impeachment of Trump and the ‘OK Boomer’ meme hint that another progressive time may be coming.  Even if so, it is not here yet.

I do believe the reds are more independent, could survive a bad time cleaner.  On the other hand blues work together better, could make a good time better.  The latter seems more likely.

-- l would argue progressive from Roosevelt 2 Jimmy Carter. Jimmy was the last old school dem Prez.  lnterestingly he backs Bernie, who despite calling himself a democratic socialist is really an old school dem, like from back in the 60s & 70s

(01-28-2020, 01:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes, the American right is indeed "pretty much content with sticking to doing things and succeeding it's own way these days." It loves the neo-liberal, trickle-down economics status quo in which they get big tax breaks and are allowed to screw over their customers and workers, and have their prejudices against immigrants and the poor stroked and their fanatical religious "values" lauded. It's all just fine for them. But the rising younger and more diverse people on the left are not satisfied with an economic system that holds them down for no reason. They don't need to be influenced to know they are being screwed, or to know that climate change and gun violence are real issues that need to be dealt with. They are not brainwashed by the false ideologies of the Christian Right, militarism and neo-liberalism. The Left can see the 40-year trend of America downward toward banana republic status on every measurement you can find. They know that adopting an authoritarian system of government led by an unfit, ego-maniacal demagogue is not what America needs.

(01-28-2020, 11:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 07:23 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 05:47 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 04:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, ignoring major problems and shifting problems on others and blaming others for problems doesn't make problems go away. I don't know if you will live long enough to see the carnage and violence as the progressive era of old begins to come to end. I hope not for you sake. I don't have a problem with my retirement plan. I'm an X'er you know. I'd say it's better to be wealthier and more self sufficient than being more dependent like must blues these days. The reds themselves will be fine regardless of the situation because the reds are already committed to taking off themselves/their own so to speak.ior in s

The way I read it, there was a progressive era from FDR to LBJ.  The conservative policies dominated between Nixon and at least Trump, crashing America’s greatness.  The impeachment of Trump and the ‘OK Boomer’ meme hint that another progressive time may be coming.  Even if so, it is not here yet.

I do believe the reds are more independent, could survive a bad time cleaner.  On the other hand blues work together better, could make a good time better.  The latter seems more likely.

-- l would argue progressive from Roosevelt 2 Jimmy Carter. Jimmy was the last old school dem Prez.  lnterestingly he backs Bernie, who despite calling himself a democratic socialist is really an old school dem, like from back in the 60s & 70s

I would extend it to Obama.

(01-28-2020, 11:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 01:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes, the American right is indeed "pretty much content with sticking to doing things and succeeding it's own way these days." It loves the neo-liberal, trickle-down economics status quo in which they get big tax breaks and are allowed to screw over their customers and workers, and have their prejudices against immigrants and the poor stroked and their fanatical religious "values" lauded. It's all just fine for them. But the rising younger and more diverse people on the left are not satisfied with an economic system that holds them down for no reason. They don't need to be influenced to know they are being screwed, or to know that climate change and gun violence are real issues that need to be dealt with. They are not brainwashed by the false ideologies of the Christian Right, militarism and neo-liberalism. The Left can see the 40-year trend of America downward toward banana republic status on every measurement you can find. They know that adopting an authoritarian system of government led by an unfit, ego-maniacal demagogue is not what America needs.

Dude, right now the liberal side is the side clinging to neo liberal policies and placing road blocks in the way of pro American policies under the guise of racism and so forth.

(01-28-2020, 11:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 01:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes, the American right is indeed "pretty much content with sticking to doing things and succeeding it's own way these days." It loves the neo-liberal, trickle-down economics status quo in which they get big tax breaks and are allowed to screw over their customers and workers, and have their prejudices against immigrants and the poor stroked and their fanatical religious "values" lauded. It's all just fine for them. But the rising younger and more diverse people on the left are not satisfied with an economic system that holds them down for no reason. They don't need to be influenced to know they are being screwed, or to know that climate change and gun violence are real issues that need to be dealt with. They are not brainwashed by the false ideologies of the Christian Right, militarism and neo-liberalism. The Left can see the 40-year trend of America downward toward banana republic status on every measurement you can find. They know that adopting an authoritarian system of government led by an unfit, ego-maniacal demagogue is not what America needs.

Dude, right now the liberal side is the side clinging to neo liberal policies and placing road blocks in the way of pro American policies under the guise of racism and so forth.

(01-29-2020, 07:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 11:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 07:23 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 05:47 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 04:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, ignoring major problems and shifting problems on others and blaming others for problems doesn't make problems go away. I don't know if you will live long enough to see the carnage and violence as the progressive era of old begins to come to end. I hope not for you sake. I don't have a problem with my retirement plan. I'm an X'er you know. I'd say it's better to be wealthier and more self sufficient than being more dependent like must blues these days. The reds themselves will be fine regardless of the situation because the reds are already committed to taking off themselves/their own so to speak.ior in s

The way I read it, there was a progressive era from FDR to LBJ.  The conservative policies dominated between Nixon and at least Trump, crashing America’s greatness.  The impeachment of Trump and the ‘OK Boomer’ meme hint that another progressive time may be coming.  Even if so, it is not here yet.

I do believe the reds are more independent, could survive a bad time cleaner.  On the other hand blues work together better, could make a good time better.  The latter seems more likely.

-- l would argue progressive from Roosevelt 2 Jimmy Carter. Jimmy was the last old school dem Prez.  lnterestingly he backs Bernie, who despite calling himself a democratic socialist is really an old school dem, like from back in the 60s & 70s

I would extend it to Obama.

Obama may have an admiration for the New Deal, but he could not wave some rhetorical version of a magic wand and bring it back. he could at most prepare Americans for an updated version suited to an America in which the original constituency for the New Deal is practically obsolete, and technology and culture no longer fit the 1930's. Obama could at best co-opt Reagan-style rhetoric and Eisenhower-style behavior in support of some much-needed reforms that the Master Class thwarted with deep-pockets support for reactionary causes.

If Obama is to have any role in shaping any new era it will be as a portent laying the intellectual and ideological foundation. Trump will be (according to the Skowronek cycle) an unambiguous demonstration of how not to do things.

(01-29-2020, 08:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-29-2020, 07:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 11:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 07:23 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(01-28-2020, 05:47 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The way I read it, there was a progressive era from FDR to LBJ.  The conservative policies dominated between Nixon and at least Trump, crashing America’s greatness.  The impeachment of Trump and the ‘OK Boomer’ meme hint that another progressive time may be coming.  Even if so, it is not here yet.

I do believe the reds are more independent, could survive a bad time cleaner.  On the other hand blues work together better, could make a good time better.  The latter seems more likely.

-- l would argue progressive from Roosevelt 2 Jimmy Carter. Jimmy was the last old school dem Prez.  lnterestingly he backs Bernie, who despite calling himself a democratic socialist is really an old school dem, like from back in the 60s & 70s

I would extend it to Obama.

Obama may have an admiration for the New Deal, but he could not wave some rhetorical version of a magic wand and bring it back. he could at most prepare Americans for an updated version suited to an America in which the original constituency for the New Deal is practically obsolete, and technology and culture no longer fit the 1930's. Obama could at best co-opt Reagan-style rhetoric and Eisenhower-style behavior in support of some much-needed reforms that the Master Class thwarted with deep-pockets support for reactionary causes.

If Obama is to have any role in shaping any new era it will be as a portent laying the intellectual and ideological foundation. Trump will be (according to the Skowronek cycle) an unambiguous demonstration of how not to do things.

I would say the democratic presidents through the see saw unraveling period all had a respect for the New Deal approach and pulled towards restoring America to its past greatness.  They all failed.  They each may have succeeded at something or another.  Cinton 42 tried to balance the budget.  Obama passed health care.  Yet while they might moderate a little part of the conservative agenda, they might undo a little bit of the damage done by the conservative presidents between, they did not overturn the overall mood of the country.  If many of them relieved the US from a disaster of the conservative excesses, the people voted right back to trying to make the unravelling memes work.

Eventually the conservatives will stop trying and we might see another progressive period.  Judging from Classic, not yet.

Quote:pbrower2a

(01-23-2020, 07:26 PM)jleagans Wrote: Great read!

https://medium.com/@mishaley/how-history-predicts-the-2020-election-and-the-next-40-years-1904e6ac19bd

Excellent! For those who despair of the offensive, catastrophic Presidency of Donald Trump, this gives hope. 

I see Donald Trump is Jimmy Carter without the intelligence, integrity, moral compass, and personal decency: without those, Jimmy Carter would have been an unspeakable nightmare as President. 




Maybe it is not comfortable to compare Barack Obama to Richard Nixon; if anything I would more likely compare him to Dwight Eisenhower for being similar in temperament and style and having squeaky-clean administrations. Obama proves to have been more of a hawk than Eisenhower -- then again, Osama bin Laden was still an infant when "the torch has been passed to a new generation". It could be the difference between a Civic type who thought wrongly that he could get away with almost anything (Nixon) as long as he got the desired results and a mature Reactive (Obama) who knew that he could get away with practically nothing -- as House and in turn Senate majorities for the other, increasingly-authoritarian Party made clear. That is a generational difference.  

Going back to the establishment of the Constitutional union:




The Founding era may be unclear, but it is safe to say that 

(1) each political era ranges from 32 to 48 years
(2) two of them make a generational cycle out of Howe and Strauss
(3) each political era begins with either great promise (Awakening era) or great threat (Crisis era)
(4) the last leader of the era is a tired or pathological expression of what started the era.  

So Washington establishes the norms of the Republic and John Quincy Adams is as far as it can go before a populist, Jacksonian era that never tolerates a meaningful challenge to the cancer of chattel slavery. Jackson was a colorful populist and James Buchanan tried to keep the Republic from (imploding? exploding?) by appeasing the slave interests (Hey, Northerners -- you can keep your liberal ideas, but you must enforce the reality of slavery by arresting fugitive slaves!) Lincoln won the Civil War and restored the Union by treating the defeated South in as kindly a way as possible; the industrial basis that gave the North a compelling edge in the Civil War fostered the rise of Gilded Age plutocrats who fostered economic and technological progress that those plutocrats arrogated for themselves in a winner-take-all system. By the time of Teddy Roosevelt, America needed to drop its social myopia and its tolerance for bad business (child labor, horrible patent medicines, free-for-all for polluters)... and got the change. Had TR not done that, then maybe Taft would. Theodore Roosevelt's modest reforms petered out with the return of politics of the disastrous Harding-Coolidge-Hoover return to a "New Era" best compared to another Gilded Age with a bit more gilding. That Little Gilded Age ended with something commonplace in the Gilded Age -- a speculative boom that led to the very nasty economic meltdown that always ensues. (Paradoxically FDR took much from the Progressive Era and enhanced it, so he may be more a throwback to Theodore Roosevelt than to Woodrow Wilson... but that is practically a quibble.

The oddity about Nixon seemed that he was more a throwback to Teddy Roosevelt in his agenda than to Gilded Age or New Gilded Age politics. Reagan started America in earnest into the neoliberal ethos in which enrichment of economic elites would become the sole economic purpose while deprecation of the intellect (ensues) -- fine. If one wanted to be a dolt in the Individualist Era, then such was as much an expression of individualism as was indulging oneself like an aristocrat on executive compensation... or having a huge audio-video collection.

If Dubya seems like a telescoping of the three awful Presidencies of Harding, Coolidge, and Hoover into eight years with a costly and inconclusive war thrown in, and Obama seems to have tried to be another FDR... Trump is beyond any question a moral and political disaster. Trump is Ronald Reagan (even down to possible senility) with far more personal cruelty, less regard for legal niceties, more contempt for learning and expertise, and no loyalty except to his own self esteem. Trump has been appeasing some nasty dictators overseas much as Fillmore, Pierce, and Buchanan appeased the slave-owning planters; I do not see that going well. 

With the exception of McKinley (who came close to being a one-term President, if through assassination instead of electoral defeat), the last Presidents in these cycles are one-term Presidents, Presidents associated with something tired (J Q Adams, Carter), unworkable (Buchanan, Hoover) or corrupt (Trump). Corruption and incompetence on the scale of Donald Trump is rare at the federal level in America; even at the state level it is not good for staying in office. We have no precedent for Trump for his scale of corruption, cruelty, and incompetence. 

Maybe I lack the imagination to see how Trump can redeem himself and establish himself as a pattern for the next forty or so years... but it is now about time for a President who can break some of the objectionable patterns of American life, make life good for more Americans, and create a consensus that completely repudiates what the Individualist Era became -- starting with a flawed, if transformational President (Reagan) and ending with a sick parody (Trump) of the transformational President of the era. America will want an antithesis of Trump very soon if not already. The generational constellation is ill suited for any maintenance of exploitative individualism of the Trump style.