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+---- Thread: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure (/thread-4581.html)
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
I think the pattern is holding well. I don't think the blue GIs made such changes that were any sharper than those made in earlier awakenings and crises. Probably the blue boomers and silents changed or threatened to change the culture during the awakening that prompted what we now call Red America to react. Feminism, alternatives to traditional families and genders, challenges to patriotic militarism and war, and more freedom of expression and religion were among these. This was added to the changes in the southern way of life wrought by the civil rights movement and supported by GI legislation.
The question might be why did Red America react? I think Gray America reacted in a similar way to the Blue assault on the southern way of life in the mid 19th century. Our crisis is the climax of an inner-directed or "dyonesian" saeculum. The holding and stalemate pattern of the 1850s is repeating. We are 1850s redux, and the 1850s was a 4T. That's what I predicted to happen, from my cosmic perspective, and that's exactly what's happening. My prediction stands that the engines will be revved up in the 2020s, to an ever-increasing degree, until the climax around 2027 and then the end of the 4T in 2028-29. Even then, the next 1T will be still more hot and active than the last one was, and much like the late 1860s and 1870s. Things are right on schedule. It's time for we boomers to take a stand and start being among the leaders and mentors of the new hero generation now coming into its own, as now all its cohorts have entered or have past the coming of age stage.
And I doubt the current non-partisan approach among the millennial activists can be maintained, but that depends on how many of the older folks will desert the sinking "red" ship and wake up.
But this guy made my phrase that I have already written about the 2020s "real"
This is a ringing call for regeneration, and for "revving up the engines."
Neptune in Aries, Pluto in Aquarius, Uranus in Gemini, Mars stationary, and more beckon!
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
Here are about 17 speakers at the rally:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/3/24/1751839/-In-case-you-missed-them-or-want-to-listen-again-here-are-14-speakers-at-the-DC-March-for-Our-Lives#read-more
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
Oh Classic, here's a guy for you. Will they ever debate? We'll see.
Used as a pawn? Good luck with that.
funny funny funny lol
Enlighten me, educate me, he says. Big fat chance!!!I'll follow David. He's ma guy!
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
My town comes out for gun control
https://www.sanjoseinside.com/2018/03/25/march-for-our-lives-san-jose-theres-too-much-gun-violence/
![[Image: Zoe-Lofgren-771x478.jpg]](https://www.sanjoseinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Zoe-Lofgren-771x478.jpg)
Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-San Jose) said the student-led movement will “lead our country in a better direction.”
She also referenced a pin on a her blazer with a red “F,” which stood for her failing grade from the NRA.
“I hear a lot of lame excuses in Congress, about why we can’t do something sensible about gun violence,” the congresswoman said from the podium. “I hear that the best way to deal with a bad guy with a guy is a good guy with a gun. You would think that after Las Vegas, that they would be ashamed to say that.”
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - pbrower2a - 03-26-2018
(03-26-2018, 12:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(03-26-2018, 01:08 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(03-25-2018, 07:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Not so. The command and control systems in this country are the corporations. The bosses are the ones in control of our top-down system, and that extends to most non-profits and family-owned and smaller businesses as well. Just like Donald Trump so famously does, they hire and fire you, tell what to do on the job, and set your wages and benefits. Meanwhile, traditional religions keeps male adults in power at home too. The government, on the other hand, has its locus of power in the voters, even though the real command and control system (the wealthy, the church and the corporations) wield outsized influence in the government and are able to deceive the red voters into supporting them and their top-down trickle-down policies.As I've told you before, your masters have trained you well grass hopper. You were a boss. Who made the decisions for your business, you or someone else you paid to make the decisions for you? It will be interesting to see what your answer is so I can see what kind of business owner you were at the time.
But the people can and will take their government back in the 2020s. When it acts for the people, the government's command structure acts to control the excesses of the bosses. The bosses complain that this infringes on their "freedom." Deceived red voters believe this tempting tripe. The red politicians promise them lower taxes and traditional values, and the red voters swallow the bait.
Honestly, I don't really care about how people run their business's or their households or which sex makes the final decisions. I know women who wear the pants and make the bulk of the decisions for the family. I don't believe traditional religion decides who has the power at home either. The women in my family were quite capable of making decisions themselves and their families. That's how our young women are being raised today. We are raising them to think for themselves and we are preparing them to be decision makers and become strong independent women.
(Responding more towards Eric, but to both...)
I see the cycle as favoring conservatives most of the time, but it favors the progressives really a lot occasionally.
The old pattern in the Industrial Age was that new values are declared in the awakening, debated and compromised in the unraveling, with trial and error taking place in crisis to implement the new values, and frozen, set in stone during the high.
But the Industrial Age is over, with computers and nukes, at about the end of WW II. The old patterns are questionable, and never held well outside of Anglo American civilization.
That will shape how this Crisis Era unfolds. At the worst, a harsh reality of economics can so debase the value of labor that living standards will plummet for all but elites. In such a case, social conditions revert to what they were in the early-industrial era with workers suffering for owners and bosses. Of course that means that Marxism becomes relevant again due to extreme exploitation and degradation of not only the industrial and the agrarian proletariat, but also the intellectual proletariat. That implies political instability that lurks beneath the surface of brittle, authoritarian regimes infamous for corruption, cruelty, and inequity. Note well that conservatives of a certain time promoted the consumer economy as a means of ensuring that working people had something to lose other than their chains. Those intelligent conservatives may or may not be the true Whigs of recent times. (I am tempted to believe that the conservatives with conscience and reason circa 2050 will owe far more to Barack Obama than to Donald Trump.
Quote:New values were proclaimed in the 1960s awakening, but implemented almost immediately. The blue GIs made big changes, enough that I am looking to an awakening pattern to dominate values change in the next age. The red had Future Shock. Little change has happened since. We are stuck in a see saw pattern, with the red and blue governments tick off the opposite people and are unable to work their respective agendas. We have had no regeneracy yet. While both agendas are defined, pushing them too hard has angered the people of one ilk or the other. No one value set has dominated.
We still ended up with Ronald Reagan. But even the liberals never quite accepted the "dope" part of "peace, love, and dope". And now we have Donald Trump, who has accepted the most sordid forms of personal indulgence (cocaine would not surprise me) without making any effort at moral perfection.
Quote:Almost. The established politicians of both factions were disliked by their rank and file in 2016. Division of wealth, to much productivity and global warming are killers. They are problems that will have to be solved, and the blue people have more chances of real solution. Refusing to see the problems will not solve them.
We have had too few entrenched reforms. I see Donald Trump endorsing a reversion to the values of the 1920s except perhaps for equality of same-sex relationships (which I cannot imagine being undone) and the refutation of Jim Crow practice (too messy). A hint: one of the few good things about the Second Amendment as interpreted by the guns-for-everyone group is that armed black people are the best reason for the KKK types seeking to return them to subjection or for Nazi-like scum trying to ship them off to concentration camps.
Quote:But they can delay addressing problems, which makes them worse.
Or they can go full-bore reactionary, accelerating the 'progress' (in the sense that metathesis of a cancer is 'progress') social rot and hasten a violent revolution. I can imagine the Millennial young adults at their possible worst as imitators of destroyers of every person, institution, and sentiment that gets in the way of what they consider pure rationality.
Quote:So I am still a Whig. I see progress, but often progress delayed by the powers that be.
Donald Trump may be making me a Troy in the sense of questioning whether that nasty discord between 1775 and 1783 was such a good idea.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Classic-Xer - 03-26-2018
(03-26-2018, 03:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Oh Classic, here's a guy for you. Will they ever debate? We'll see.He's a pawn. I've told you that before. He's a pawn who doesn't mind being used as a pawn because he's fully aware of what's going to be in it for him in the long term by being a pawn now. I told you he's an opportunist. I told you that I recognized that about him right off the bat. David is flying high right now. David isn't going to accept a challenge from a superior opponent. David is going to stick with the liberals and remain within liberal circles and continue to play it safe.
Used as a pawn? Good luck with that.
funny funny funny lol
I'll follow David. He's ma guy!
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
This guy didn't seem like a superior opponent to me. Did he to you? He made no points at all. Oh well, maybe there's a superior opponent somewhere, eh?
Seems to me like you're saying David is his own pawn. It could work for him. To make something out of tragedy is a good thing to do, and works for many famous people. Dianne Feinstein did pretty well after taking over for his two gun-assassinated colleagues. To be insulted by lots of idiots is not necessarily a career-ending situation either. Just ask Justin Bieber.
Classic, I'm sure you saw how Cameron Kasky and Ryan Deitsch got the better of Marco Rubio. That's some pretty experienced debating skill right there that David's friends beat to a pulp. David being maybe the most-skilled among them will have little trouble getting the better of any of your guys.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
If the USA goes full bore reactionary, the blame will largely fall with the American people themselves, for how they voted and didn't vote. It could happen; Russia and Turkey recently voted in dictatorships for themselves.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-26-2018
Veterans speak out about weapons of war and their place in society.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Classic-Xer - 03-27-2018
(03-25-2018, 06:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:The NRA represents/ protects the rights of legal gun owners not the guns themselves. I'm a gun owner. You have a mental health issue (emotional issue) like the bulk of the mass shooters had emotional/mental health issues. Lets get real, I'm taking the position that liberals have taken with me/ gun owner's. I associate all people with mental health issues whether they're treatable or not, whether they're age related or not, whether they're actually dangerous or not, simply because a few people with mental health issues (emotional problems) have been directly involved in several mass shootings and other acts of known terrorism. I could take them all into account but I won't because I'm being liberal now. All I'm going to do now is fixate on mental health issues and say stupid/ thoughtless stuff, make fake claims, vague statements because that's all that I need to do to be liberal now. Being liberal is easy. If I didn't have scruples, I'd slide across and make a fortune.(03-25-2018, 04:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Disturbing. It would be even more disturbing if they were the ones who actually did all the shooting. Blue are making a great case for Red guns to remain idle and silent while blues are being slaughtered by criminals.
Do we blame drug traffickers for the misery that illicit drugs cause? Of course. Was the slaver as culpable in the horrors of slavery as the planters who owned slaves? I would think so. The person who established the logistics of transporting Jews to their doom in Hitlerland (Adolf Eichmann) was as culpable as the person who cast the pellets of Zyklon-B into the gas chambers.
The National Rifle Association is the main defender of profitable weapons of unmitigated danger to people. It resists every effort to restrain gun use. It may be right about advocating more commitments for mental illness, but that is not the focus of the NRA. It has blood on its hands -- and it hasn't been cutting meat in a butcher shop.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - pbrower2a - 03-27-2018
(03-27-2018, 12:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(03-25-2018, 06:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:The NRA represents/ protects the rights of legal gun owners not the guns themselves. I'm a gun owner. You have a mental health issue (emotional issue) like the bulk of the mass shooters had emotional/mental health issues.(03-25-2018, 04:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Disturbing. It would be even more disturbing if they were the ones who actually did all the shooting. Blue are making a great case for Red guns to remain idle and silent while blues are being slaughtered by criminals.
Do we blame drug traffickers for the misery that illicit drugs cause? Of course. Was the slaver as culpable in the horrors of slavery as the planters who owned slaves? I would think so. The person who established the logistics of transporting Jews to their doom in Hitlerland (Adolf Eichmann) was as culpable as the person who cast the pellets of Zyklon-B into the gas chambers.
The National Rifle Association is the main defender of profitable weapons of unmitigated danger to people. It resists every effort to restrain gun use. It may be right about advocating more commitments for mental illness, but that is not the focus of the NRA. It has blood on its hands -- and it hasn't been cutting meat in a butcher shop.
My mental health 'issue' is Asperger's syndrome, which cannot be used as a mitigating factor in criminal cases. People me must simply choose to avoid doing evil things to people, and we are about as normal at that as any other people. People with Asperger's syndrome have an advantage in avoiding criminal convictions because (1) like most handicapped people we are cautious. (2) we are less prone than the average to chemical dependencies commonplace among offe4nders, and (3) we are good at calculating the consequences of our behavior. After all, most of us know that we would be exceptionally vulnerable in any penal setting.
The only major offender that I suspect has Asperger's is Unabom terrorist Ted Kaczynski.
I have had situational depression within the last five years, so that ought to keep me from getting a firearm.
Quote:Lets get real, I'm taking the position that liberals have taken with me/ gun owner's. I associate all people with mental health issues whether they're treatable or not, whether they're age related or not, whether they're actually dangerous or not, simply because a few people with mental health issues (emotional problems) have been directly involved in several mass shootings and other acts of known terrorism. I could take them all into account but I won't because I'm being liberal now. All I'm going to do now is fixate on mental health issues and say stupid/ thoughtless stuff, make fake claims, vague statements because that's all that I need to do to be liberal now. Being liberal is easy. If I didn't have scruples, I'd slide across and make a fortune.
Vagueness is not a liberal vice. I am a liberal in part because I would be a very nasty person if I were a right-winger.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Classic-Xer - 03-27-2018
(03-26-2018, 10:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: This guy didn't seem like a superior opponent to me. Did he to you? He made no points at all. Oh well, maybe there's a superior opponent somewhere, eh?A couple of kids vs a politician. Hmm.. What's a politician like Marco Rubio supposed to do in that position? Seriously engage in a debate with a couple of young people who survived a mass shooting that occurred in his state. I don't think so. The entire system did fail to protect them.
Seems to me like you're saying David is his own pawn. It could work for him. To make something out of tragedy is a good thing to do, and works for many famous people. Dianne Feinstein did pretty well after taking over for his two gun-assassinated colleagues. To be insulted by lots of idiots is not necessarily a career-ending situation either. Just ask Justin Bieber.
Classic, I'm sure you saw how Cameron Kasky and Ryan Deitsch got the better of Marco Rubio. That's some pretty experienced debating skill right there that David's friends beat to a pulp. David being maybe the most-skilled among them will have little trouble getting the better of any of your guys.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Eric the Green - 03-27-2018
(03-27-2018, 01:44 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(03-26-2018, 10:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: This guy didn't seem like a superior opponent to me. Did he to you? He made no points at all. Oh well, maybe there's a superior opponent somewhere, eh?A couple of kids vs a politician. Hmm.. What's a politician like Marco Rubio supposed to do in that position? Seriously engage in a debate with a couple of young people who survived a mass shooting that occurred in his state. I don't think so. The entire system did fail to protect them.
Seems to me like you're saying David is his own pawn. It could work for him. To make something out of tragedy is a good thing to do, and works for many famous people. Dianne Feinstein did pretty well after taking over for his two gun-assassinated colleagues. To be insulted by lots of idiots is not necessarily a career-ending situation either. Just ask Justin Bieber.
Classic, I'm sure you saw how Cameron Kasky and Ryan Deitsch got the better of Marco Rubio. That's some pretty experienced debating skill right there that David's friends beat to a pulp. David being maybe the most-skilled among them will have little trouble getting the better of any of your guys.
Sounds plausible. But he DID debate them, and tried woefully poorly to defend himself from the kids' questions, evading them in his smooth and articulate, stubborn way that we know, and still the guys got the better of him. And I saw David get the better of a skeptical CNN reporter too.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Classic-Xer - 03-27-2018
(03-27-2018, 01:35 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: My mental health 'issue' is Asperger's syndrome, which cannot be used as a mitigating factor in criminal cases. People me must simply choose to avoid doing evil things to people, and we are about as normal at that as any other people. People with Asperger's syndrome have an advantage in avoiding criminal convictions because (1) like most handicapped people we are cautious. (2) we are less prone than the average to chemical dependencies commonplace among offe4nders, and (3) we are good at calculating the consequences of our behavior. After all, most of us know that we would be exceptionally vulnerable in any penal setting.As a liberal, I can close my mind or simply ignore this or refuse to accept differences, and continue stressing on mental issues and continue connecting mental issues with mass shootings and continue connecting mental issues with mass murderers like liberals are/ have been doing with gun owners. Like I said, being liberal is easy. No need for thinking. No need for use of judgement. It's easy. Where do I sign up?
The only major offender that I suspect has Asperger's is Unabom terrorist Ted Kaczynski.
I have had situational depression within the last five years, so that ought to keep me from getting a firearm.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - David Horn - 03-27-2018
(03-26-2018, 10:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: If the USA goes full bore reactionary, the blame will largely fall with the American people themselves, for how they voted and didn't vote. It could happen; Russia and Turkey recently voted in dictatorships for themselves.
Don't discount this possibility. In a recent article about the power of gun culture, a long-term gun researcher made the point that guns are the new justification for manhood. She found that men, almost entirely men, justified their social position in the past as the breadwinner. That's under threat everywhere. So, the new justification is "protector". She found that many of her subjects had never owned guns prior to losing their good jobs in manufacturing, but claimed a new image as a protector of their families and neighbors in a threatening world. It's hard to overcome that emotional impact short of a new and better career they can wear with pride.
People like Trump, and Erdogan in Turkey among others, feed easily on this need for redemption and meaning. Overcoming that will take time and, most importantly, a new economy with a culture to match.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - David Horn - 03-27-2018
(03-27-2018, 12:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The NRA represents/ protects the rights of legal gun owners not the guns themselves...
That may have been true in the past, but now, they are all-in for the manufacturers. Look at the legislation they support: legal indemnity for manufacturers, a ban on gun research, and, most telling, pushing the 2nd Amendment to whatever extremes they can reach. It's all about the guns.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - David Horn - 03-27-2018
John Paul Stephens, retired SCOTUS Justice and Heller dissenter, has made a plea for killing the 2nd Amendment. You can read it here.
RE: Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure - Classic-Xer - 03-27-2018
(03-27-2018, 09:43 AM)David Horn Wrote:The gun manufactures are technically gun owners. The gun stores are technically gun owners as well. The gun dealers are technically gun owners as well. The issue isn't guns. The issue is mental health. So, the way I see it as a liberal, everyone who is associated with mental health (the mental heath industry, mental health treatment facilities, mental heath doctors and support staff, mental heath patients and those who are walking around untreated) is responsible every time a mass shooting occurs in America. It's all about mental health. Sounds silly, sounds crazy but that's the way liberals want America to view things.(03-27-2018, 12:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The NRA represents/ protects the rights of legal gun owners not the guns themselves...
That may have been true in the past, but now, they are all-in for the manufacturers. Look at the legislation they support: legal indemnity for manufacturers, a ban on gun research, and, most telling, pushing the 2nd Amendment to whatever extremes they can reach. It's all about the guns.