Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure

[nebraska]

Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/bi...gWU2gPCQK/

[bobc]

Take away a constitutional right, based upon supposition without a conviction in court? No.

[nebraska]

If the US was free, peaceful, had a booming economy, had a balanced budget, had sound money, had safe streets, had no minimum wage, and taxes imposed by all levels of government took less than 10% of our income in the past, are Americans happier now that the USA is a police state, at war, has a dead economy, is in debt, has a minimum wage, and high taxes?

[pbrower2a]

Hey kid --

just don't ask for both a Corvette and a Mustang for your 16th birthday.

[nebraska]

An armed society is a polite society.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-28-2018, 07:20 PM)bobc Wrote: Take away a constitutional right, based upon supposition without a conviction in court? No.

I agree.  To remove an explicit Constitutional right requires some form of judicial review.  I am no lawyer, but there is a specific form of review.  The review is not precisely a conviction, but close enough.

The right to travel is an invented right.  It does not appear in the Bill of Rights.  When it was invented, I do not know if the inventing judge mentioned specific forms of transportation.  I am assuming the courts hold flight to be a risky form of transport, that the possibility of a crash outweighs their invented right.

I for one think flight is not in the Bill of Rights and should be denied essentially on government whim.  This whim should not be a blank check.  I have heard of mistakes on the no flight list, of people with the same name being punished for the deeds of another, of nets being cast far too widely.  There ought to be judicial ways to get off the list if government power has been abused.

But the 2nd should not be infringed on whim.

[nebraska]

So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause.

[pbrower2a]

(01-29-2018, 03:37 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-28-2018, 07:20 PM)bobc Wrote: Take away a constitutional right, based upon supposition without a conviction in court? No.

I agree.  To remove an explicit Constitutional right requires some form of judicial review.  I am no lawyer, but there is a specific form of review.  The review is not precisely a conviction, but close enough.

The right to travel is an invented right.  It does not appear in the Bill of Rights.  When it was invented, I do not know if the inventing judge mentioned specific forms of transportation.  I am assuming the courts hold flight to be a risky form of transport, that the possibility of a crash outweighs their invented right.

I for one think flight is not in the Bill of Rights and should be denied essentially on government whim.  This whim should not be a blank check.  I have heard of mistakes on the no flight list, of people with the same name being punished for the deeds of another, of nets being cast far too widely.  There ought to be judicial ways to get off the list if government power has been abused.

But the 2nd should not be infringed on whim.

The right to travel is presumed in English common law for any licit purpose. One has no legal right to travel for the furtherance of any crime or in flight from prosecution. The Founders apparently did not think of denying the right to travel. Maybe that was because George III did not see fit to deny the right to travel of such people as Sam Adams and Patrick Henry to form a 'treasonable' assembly in Philadelphia that culminated in something so disrespectful of His Majesty as the Declaration of Independence. Even so we have pasport controls.

If the government had enacted a law in the McCarthy era that prohibited Communists from traveling to meetings or to travel to give speeches, then such would have been a violation of the First Amendment. Such would be the same for prohibiting travel to support fascist causes including neo-Nazism and Ku Kluxism.

I see the "well-disciplined militia' clause establishing that people who would never be welcome into a well-disciplined militia for criminality, idiocy, lunacy, or overt disloyalty as potentially banning people from getting, keeping, or bearing arms. A no-fly list is probable cause for denying someone a right to bear arms.

[Eric the Green]

No fly, no buy, seems right to me. Noone on a terrorist watch list should have a right to a gun.

The "gun rights" advocates mostly seem intent on seeing that criminals, terrorists and the insane are equipped with semi-automatic assault rifles, fully automatic weapons, and as many pistols as they want too, according to their successful lobbying and buying-of-congress efforts and their Republican representatives who do their bidding. I don't agree with these "gun rights" advocates.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-29-2018, 11:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I see the "well-disciplined militia' clause establishing that people who would never be welcome into a well-disciplined militia for criminality, idiocy, lunacy, or overt disloyalty as potentially banning people from getting, keeping, or bearing arms. A no-fly list is probable cause for denying someone a right to bear arms.

There have been many rights established with and without a justification clause. The justification clause has nothing to do with it.

Again, the definition of militia includes all males of military age, with certain exceptions such as workers at shipyards and post offices that help the war effort by their normal work. It does not exclude felons or the mentally incompetent.

One who is a felon or one mentally incompetent can potentially lose a right, but one should use due process. The no fly list does not use due process, and should not be used to remove rights.

[nebraska]

Out of one side of their mouths Americans condemn the evils of fascism and socialism and lament the injustices of the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, while out of the other side of their mouths they preach exactly what they did - the worship of the collective, the subjugation of every individual to that evil insanity that wears the deceptive label 'the common good'.

Americans babble on and on about diversity and open-mindedness then beg their masters to regulate and control every aspect of everyone's lives, creating a giant herd of unthinking conformist drones. Americans wear different clothes and have different hairstyles and they think that makes them different, yet all their minds are enslaved to the same club of masters and controllers. Americans think what their overlords tell them to think and do what the elites tell them to do while imagining themselves to be progressive, thinking and enlightened.

From Americans position of relative comfort and safety, they now condemn the evils of other lands and other times, while turning a blind eye to the injustices happening right in front of them. Americans tell themselves that had they lived in those other places, in those other times, they would have been among those who stood up against oppression and defended the down-trodden. But, that is a lie. Americans would have been right there with the rest of the flock of well-trained sheep, loudly demanding that the slaves be beaten, that the witches be burned, that the non-conformists and rebels be destroyed.

How do I know this? Because that is exactly what Americans are doing today. Today's injustices and oppressions are fashionable and popular, and those who resist them, you tell yourselves, are just malcontents and freaks, people whose rights don't matter, people who deserve to be crushed under the boot of authority, isn't that right? Americans are a bunch of spineless unthinking hypocrites! Look in the mirror!

The crowds of thousands wildly applauding the speeches of Adolf Hitler - that was YOU. The mob demanding that Jesus Christ be nailed to the cross - that was YOU. The white invaders who celebrated the whole-sale slaughter of those 'Godless Redskins' - that was YOU. The throngs filling the Coliseum applauding as Christians were fed to the lions - that was YOU.

Throughout history the perpetual suffering and injustice occurring on an incomprehensible scale, it was all because of people JUST LIKE YOU - the well-trained thoroughly indoctrinated conformists, the people who do as they're told, who proudly bow to their masters, who follow the crowd believing what everyone else believes and thinking whatever authority tells them to think, that is YOU.

American ignorance is not because the truth is not available to you- there's been radicals preaching it for thousands of years. No, Americans are ignorant because they shun the truth with all their hearts and souls. They close their eyes and run away when a hint of reality lands in front of you. Americans condemn as extremists and fringe kooks those who try to show them the chains they wear because they don't want to be free, they don't even want to be human.

Responsibility and reality scare the hell out of them so they cling tightly to their own enslavement and lash out at any who seeks to free them from it, when someone opens the door to their cages Americans cower back in the corner and yell "Close it! Close it!!".

Americans spout back what their masters have taught them, that being free only leads to chaos and destruction, while being obedient and subservient leads to peace and prosperity.

There are none so blind as those who will not see, and Americans the nation of sheep, would rather die than see the truth.

[Eric the Green]

(01-29-2018, 03:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-29-2018, 11:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I see the "well-disciplined militia' clause establishing that people who would never be welcome into a well-disciplined militia for criminality, idiocy, lunacy, or overt disloyalty as potentially banning people from getting, keeping, or bearing arms. A no-fly list is probable cause for denying someone a right to bear arms.

There have been many rights established with and without a justification clause.  The justification clause has nothing to do with it.

Again, the definition of militia includes all males of military age, with certain exceptions such as workers at shipyards and post offices that help the war effort by their normal work.  It does not exclude felons or the mentally incompetent.

One who is a felon or one mentally incompetent can potentially lose a right, but one should use due process.  The no fly list does not use due process, and should not be used to remove rights.

Although I agree due process should be used, my thought remains that in the case of gun rights, we should err on the side of taking them away. Few if any countries allow that "right" to the extent that we in the USA do. A gun confers too much power to kill on the person possessing it. Such a "right" needs to be qualified even more than are other rights, which are also qualified by law. A person on a no fly list was placed there for a reason. It is usually not arbitrary. I wouldn't mind though, if better due processing was used to draw up the no fly list, if it's believed that this process is too arbitrary. A few people have been put on that list just because they are political radicals of some sort.

[nebraska]

Does anyone get the feeling that if our overlords decreed that everyone must have their thumbs amputated, Americans would agree that the law makes sense and must be obeyed?

[pbrower2a]

(01-29-2018, 06:13 PM)nebraska Wrote: Out of one side of their mouths Americans condemn the evils of fascism and socialism and lament the injustices of the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, while out of the other side of their mouths they preach exactly what they did - the worship of the collective, the subjugation of every individual to that evil insanity that wears the deceptive label 'the common good'.

In a free country one finds many different ideas of what constitutes the Common Good. That's why we have elections and representative government.

Quote:Americans babble on and on about diversity and open-mindedness then beg their masters to regulate and control every aspect of everyone's lives, creating a giant herd of unthinking conformist drones. Americans wear different clothes and have different hairstyles and they think that makes them different, yet all their minds are enslaved to the same club of masters and controllers. Americans think what their overlords tell them to think and do what the elites tell them to do while imagining themselves to be progressive, thinking and enlightened.

OK, so tell me who my overlord  is.

Quote:From Americans position of relative comfort and safety, they now condemn the evils of other lands and other times, while turning a blind eye to the injustices happening right in front of them. Americans tell themselves that had they lived in those other places, in those other times, they would have been among those who stood up against oppression and defended the down-trodden. But, that is a lie. Americans would have been right there with the rest of the flock of well-trained sheep, loudly demanding that the slaves be beaten, that the witches be burned, that the non-conformists and rebels be destroyed.

If I see injustice and recognize it as such I will report or protest it.

Quote:How do I know this? Because that is exactly what Americans are doing today. Today's injustices and oppressions are fashionable and popular, and those who resist them, you tell yourselves, are just malcontents and freaks, people whose rights don't matter, people who deserve to be crushed under the boot of authority, isn't that right? Americans are a bunch of spineless unthinking hypocrites! Look in the mirror!

The crowds of thousands wildly applauding the speeches of Adolf Hitler - that was YOU. The mob demanding that Jesus Christ be nailed to the cross - that was YOU. The white invaders who celebrated the whole-sale slaughter of those 'Godless Redskins' - that was YOU. The throngs filling the Coliseum applauding as Christians were fed to the lions - that was YOU.

I was not there. Yes, we have malcontents and freaks, and so long as those malcontents do nothing wrong I will let them slide.

I have never been in a Trump rally. The Jews calling for the crucifixion of Jesus were a mob paid for by the Romans through the puppets of the Romans. There were no mass rallies for the killing of First peoples in America.
Feeding Christians to bears, lions, and tigers -- the Romans used all three animals (bears if the Romans wanted the Christians to endure agony, and tigers if they wanted quick death -- lions were less reliable at killing people).

It's telling that the Jews prohibited dealings of that trinity  of man-eaters to the Romans; they knew what was going on and found  it objectionable.

Quote:Throughout history the perpetual suffering and injustice occurring on an incomprehensible scale, it was all because of people JUST LIKE YOU - the well-trained thoroughly indoctrinated conformists, the people who do as they're told, who proudly bow to their masters, who follow the crowd believing what everyone else believes and thinking whatever authority tells them to think, that is YOU.

I am a conformist (with Asperger's I must put  on an acting job to seem normal and allow my lapses to allow me to avoid seeming too much  of a conformist) -- but I must pretend to have a conscience, and I do what I consider a good-enough job that people think that I really have one. You know how that goes -- act brave, and you will get a reputation for courage; act generous and you will get a reputation for generosity.

Yes, I can be a self-righteous prick. For example I hate drugs, personal violence, and abuse of children.

Quote:American ignorance is not because the truth is not available to you- there's been radicals preaching it for thousands of years. No, Americans are ignorant because they shun the truth with all their hearts and souls. They close their eyes and run away when a hint of reality lands in front of you. Americans condemn as extremists and fringe kooks those who try to show them the chains they wear because they don't want to be free, they don't even want to be human.

No. We have not been trained to do evil to others. The Fugitive Slave Law was the most disobeyed federal law before Prohibition. Brave and decent Americans took a stand against Jim Crow racism and took it down. We have granted same-sex rights for consenting adults while cracking down on child sexual abuse. We have protested the destruction of the environment despite the preferences of rapacious elites.

Quote:Responsibility and reality scare the hell out of them so they cling tightly to their own enslavement and lash out at any who seeks to free them from it, when someone opens the door to their cages Americans cower back in the corner and yell "Close it! Close it!!".

No President has sparked more protests than has Donald Trump, probably because he is our least moral President and the one doing the most to compromise  our freedoms.  It may be smugness on my part, But I se myself more moral than this President and his enablers.

Quote:Americans spout back what their masters have taught them, that being free only leads to chaos and destruction, while being obedient and subservient leads to peace and prosperity.

Some rules are to be obeyed because anything else (like driving the wrong way on a divided highway, making or using dangerous drugs, abusing children, or doing terrorist acts) does unmitigated harm. There are rules and orders which good people must disobey because those orders are themselves monstrously wrong.

Quote:There are none so blind as those who will not see, and Americans the nation of sheep, would rather die than see the truth.

I am sure that there are people who would have humiliated and denounced Jews were they transported in some time machine to Nazi Germany. There are even people who would have organized their transshipment to their doom and even killed them. No nation is exempt from evil. Yes, we had a slave trade -- but we also had abolitionists.

[nebraska]

The USA is no longer a democracy and the DHS hacks the elections.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/25/t...al-elites/

If Americans are so moral then where are the protests against debt, wars, censorship, gun bans, forfeiture, NSA wiretapping, TSA groping, torture, and extrajudicial assassinations?

[bobc]

(01-29-2018, 10:02 PM)nebraska Wrote: Does anyone get the feeling that if our overlords decreed that everyone must have their thumbs amputated, Americans would agree that the law makes sense and must be obeyed?

Perhaps without the right to keep and bear arms.
As it is, there might be some resistance. Same with trying to do away with the right to keep and bear arms.
Keep in mind, that in the years leading up to 1775, there was tension, but not war. When the British decided that suspected disloyalists were to be disarmed, the response was much stronger than they expected, and the worlds best military was eventually defeated.

[1948]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to say
nothing.

[pbrower2a]

(01-31-2018, 12:30 AM)1948 Wrote: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to say
nothing.

Evil is often quite competent in suppressing knowledge of its own evil. Most Germans knew that the Jews were getting a raw deal before 1941, but once the Nazis started shipping Jews to the 'East' (meaning death camps in Poland) most Germans had no idea of what was going on. Poland was as vile $#!+hole as any country could be once the Nazis took  it over and began to brutalize it, and it was not a tourist destination.  The Germans who knew what was going on were either the perpetrators or the more innocent of soldiers ... and it is worth reminding you that the July 20 plotters often used the Holocaust as their reason for deciding to plot against Hitler when they were tried for treason.

For another evil -- look at slavery in the South. At one time Southerners could convince people that slavery was necessary for settling a frontier which in 1776 was to the east of such places as Asheville, Spartanburg, Atlanta, and Macon and by 1836 had reached Texas. By 1860 the planters tried to convince people not owning slaves that slavery was a wonderful thing... for the slaves!

One can go only so far.

Jim Crow? When elderly Northerners started to find Florida a good way to get away from the brutal winters of the Northeast and Midwest, they had to drive through the Jim Crow South -- and those elderly people came back with tales of the journey... of the degradation that Southern blacks experienced. Their children and grandchildren listened, and some of those tried to put an end to that. Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner may have been among them. The Klan silenced their mouths and stilled any writing that they might have done, but as any FBI agent will tell you, dead bodies give excellent evidence.

It takes bad people and corrupt institutions to do evil.

[theory]

The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, bows, spears, firearms or other types of arms. The possession of these elements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues, and tends to permit uprising.

[pbrower2a]

(02-02-2018, 04:33 AM)theory Wrote: The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, bows, spears, firearms or other types of arms. The possession of these elements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues, and tends to permit uprising.

Taxes are far easier to collect now because  of the withholding of  income tax, practically-instant collection of sales taxes from brick-and-mortar stores and many Internet retailers, and direct deposit that puts money into bank accounts that governments can seize easily with a warrant. The  only income that is not taxed easily is either in cash businesses (and many of these are used for concealing illegal income) and of course the theoretically-taxable sales transactions and  income of such illicit activities as drug-dealing, illegal gambling, bootlegging, and prostitution.

Governments typically seize assets associated with those who commit such deeds, perhaps justified because of the pervasive tax cheating by people who operate criminal enterprises.

Form 1040 has a notice that income from embezzlement and other larceny is taxable income. Few people report such activity -- far fewer than those who commit it.

It's practically impossible to make honest income or make purchases (where there is a sales tax) and not pay the mandated taxes.