(04-07-2020, 01:27 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 07:45 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 02:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I have yet to figure what Donald Trump does well that is a legitimate achievement. Oh, he got elected? In a fluke.

Not a fluke.  He was willing to tell a bunch of people what they thought they believed.  The Republican Establishment had long had enough affinity to the elites that the Tea Party did not trust them.  Reagan was in touch with his time, but years of ever more extreme policies enough to keep moving the US further in the same direction was not practical.  They had squeezed all the blood out of the stone, but the base wanted more.  Trump gave it to them.  But while ever smaller government, smaller taxes, and thus the less willingness to solve or even perceive of problems is a direction that sounds better than it is, a direction one can only sustain for a finite time.

Isn't it ironic, that the two advanced nations with the worst records on preparedness (for anything) are Reagan's US and Thatcher's UK.  Letting the greed heads run wild may have produced some small benefit to society, but the cost is proving  unacceptably high.  The anti-taxers created the perfect storm, and COVID-19 is riding that storm, until the storm gets tamed.  Any bets on how much of the Reagan/Thatcher meme will survive?

(04-07-2020, 02:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-06-2020, 11:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, that makes sense, she seems as ignorant and as partisan as you and most others like you here. So, what did those planners do to earn their paychecks during their stint under Obama other than flap their gums, fuck around and act important and accomplish little to nothing. BTW, that is what liberals seem to do best these days.

The various guests were in the front lines for AIDS, S1N1 and SARS among others.  As for ‘ignorant and partisan”, what is there in the above posting that says anything?  How can I respond if there is nothing there?

Again, you should try watching a few of Rachel’s shows.  If you are going to criticize something or some group, know something about what they are saying or doing.  If you don’t bother to learn, all you can do in show your ignorance.

(04-07-2020, 02:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 02:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-06-2020, 11:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, that makes sense, she seems as ignorant and as partisan as you and most others like you here. So, what did those planners do to earn their paychecks during their stint under Obama other than flap their gums, fuck around and act important and accomplish little to nothing. BTW, that is what liberals seem to do best these days.

The various guests were in the front lines for AIDS, S1N1 and SARS among others.  As for ‘ignorant and partisan”, what is there in the above posting that says anything?  How can I respond if there is nothing there?

Again, you should try watching a few of Rachel’s shows.  If you are going to criticize something or some group, know something about what they are saying or doing.  If you don’t bother to learn, all you can do in show your ignorance.

Where do you think my opinion of her and her show came from? Hint: I've watched her shows quite a few times. You forget, you are the one who chose the term worse to describe your source. So, what does that tell me? Think about that. I've decided that this site is pretty much a waste of time for the most part. I don't have the temperament that's needed for dealing with irrational liberals and partisan liberal hacks.

(04-07-2020, 01:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 01:27 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 07:45 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 02:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: I have yet to figure what Donald Trump does well that is a legitimate achievement. Oh, he got elected? In a fluke.

Not a fluke.  He was willing to tell a bunch of people what they thought they believed.  The Republican Establishment had long had enough affinity to the elites that the Tea Party did not trust them.  Reagan was in touch with his time, but years of ever more extreme policies enough to keep moving the US further in the same direction was not practical.  They had squeezed all the blood out of the stone, but the base wanted more.  Trump gave it to them.  But while ever smaller government, smaller taxes, and thus the less willingness to solve or even perceive of problems is a direction that sounds better than it is, a direction one can only sustain for a finite time.

Isn't it ironic, that the two advanced nations with the worst records on preparedness (for anything) are Reagan's US and Thatcher's UK.  Letting the greed heads run wild may have produced some small benefit to society, but the cost is proving  unacceptably high.  The anti-taxers created the perfect storm, and COVID-19 is riding that storm, until the storm gets tamed.  Any bets on how much of the Reagan/Thatcher meme will survive?

Quite a bit, unfortunately.  Think Jim Crow after slavery.  Think the robber barons of the gilded age after the autocratic slave owners.  Elitism, racism, division of wealth, and tribal thinking are insidiously deep in the culture.  With luck we might get another progressive period, but another conservative time is apt to rise come the unraveling.

Alas, not my problem.

(04-07-2020, 01:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 01:27 PM)David Horn Wrote: Isn't it ironic, that the two advanced nations with the worst records on preparedness (for anything) are Reagan's US and Thatcher's UK.  Letting the greed heads run wild may have produced some small benefit to society, but the cost is proving  unacceptably high.  The anti-taxers created the perfect storm, and COVID-19 is riding that storm, until the storm gets tamed.  Any bets on how much of the Reagan/Thatcher meme will survive?

Quite a bit, unfortunately.  Think Jim Crow after slavery.  Think the robber barons of the gilded age after the autocratic slave owners.  Elitism, racism, division of wealth, and tribal thinking are insidiously deep in the culture.  With luck we might get another progressive period, but another conservative time is apt to rise come the unraveling.

Alas, not my problem.

(04-07-2020, 02:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, why wasn't blue America better prepared? Does blue America have way to much on it's plate or something? I think so and have thought so for a long time but my views are pretty much irrelevant to those who subscribe to the liberal belief that liberals know best. It's obvious that   New York City wasn't prepared. You'd think it would be the most prepared based on its political leaning and its liberal belief these days. Chicago wasn't prepared. Detroit wasn't prepared. Minneapolis and St Paul weren't prepared either. California wasn't prepared. Hell, New England wasn't prepared.

(04-07-2020, 02:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, why wasn't blue America better prepared? Does blue America have way to much on it's plate or something? I think so and have thought so for a long time but my views are pretty much irrelevant to those who subscribe to the liberal belief that liberals know best. It's obvious that   New York City wasn't prepared. You'd think it would be the most prepared based on its political leaning and its liberal belief these days. Chicago wasn't prepared. Detroit wasn't prepared. Minneapolis and St Paul weren't prepared either. California wasn't prepared. Hell, New England wasn't prepared.

(04-07-2020, 02:56 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Regarding Bob Butler's comments....

By the time the USA gets to the next 3T, those who remember the New Gilded Age will have retired, and will start to die off.  Younger generations will be naive, and will be conned by  new robber barons.

(04-07-2020, 03:55 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 02:56 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Regarding Bob Butler's comments....

By the time the USA gets to the next 3T, those who remember the New Gilded Age will have retired, and will start to die off.  Younger generations will be naive, and will be conned by  new robber barons.

There is only one solution to that: amend the Constitution.  Crises are the only times that's viable, so it needs to be a primary goal.  It probably won't happen, but it should.

(04-07-2020, 02:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 02:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-06-2020, 11:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, that makes sense, she seems as ignorant and as partisan as you and most others like you here. So, what did those planners do to earn their paychecks during their stint under Obama other than flap their gums, fuck around and act important and accomplish little to nothing. BTW, that is what liberals seem to do best these days.

The various guests were in the front lines for AIDS, S1N1 and SARS among others.  As for ‘ignorant and partisan”, what is there in the above posting that says anything?  How can I respond if there is nothing there?

Again, you should try watching a few of Rachel’s shows.  If you are going to criticize something or some group, know something about what they are saying or doing.  If you don’t bother to learn, all you can do is to show your ignorance.

A conservative may dislike Rachel Maddow's politics, but as a rule she is a superb journalist. She gets the facts right. The dispute that a conservative has with her is with her interpretation. I'm guessing that she is simply the peak of a pyramid that does what journalists rightly do: reporting and (just as important) fact-checking. She connects undeniable fact with solid logic to get a conclusion that usually satisfies me. Contrast someone like Sean Hannity; he fits the story to his ideology, and if the story falls apart -- so do his conclusions.

As with Rachel Maddow as a journalist, so it was with Obama as an administrator. Neither knows everything, and both well know that. There is someone wiser, but such people are not good at expressing themselves or are too busy with their work to make public statements. Both know that politics and journalism exist to convince people, and someone like either is able to put such in the terms of a competent layman. 

Physicians do not do law or engineering; attorneys do not do medicine or engineering; engineers do not do medicine or law. Jacks-of-all-trades can go from one area of mediocre performance to another wherein training is slight... but develop certain skills to a certain level and one precludes the ability to do other things well for what one gets paid amply. The cellist Yo-Yo Ma does not play piano in some sleazy dive, but the piano player in a sleazy dive could switch to cashiering in a grocery store if the sleazy dives are shut down under stay-at-home orders.

I have yet to figure what Donald Trump does well that is a legitimate achievement. Oh, he got elected? In a fluke.

(04-07-2020, 04:29 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: What did you have in mind?

I know I would want to go after the old slavery compromises which gave the slave states and now rural states artificially extra power.  These would be primarily the Senate, the Electoral College, and the difficulty getting an amendment, which tempts whomever has the power to ignore rule of law.  There is too much legislation from the bench.

I would say late Crisis is the time for amendments, which was after the Crisis war in the Industrial Age, this time around when the virus is solved.  An attempt is made to set the solutions to the Crisis in stone.  The attempt is often bypassed in the High though legislation from the bench.  For example, the Jim Crow court cases undid the Black Republican attempts to give blacks the benefits of human rights.

(04-07-2020, 06:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 04:29 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: What did you have in mind?

I know I would want to go after the old slavery compromises which gave the slave states and now rural states artificially extra power.  These would be primarily the Senate, the Electoral College, and the difficulty getting an amendment, which tempts whomever has the power to ignore rule of law.  There is too much legislation from the bench.

I would say late Crisis is the time for amendments, which was after the Crisis war in the Industrial Age, this time around when the virus is solved.  An attempt is made to set the solutions to the Crisis in stone.  The attempt is often bypassed in the High though legislation from the bench.  For example, the Jim Crow court cases undid the Black Republican attempts to give blacks the benefits of human rights.

Easier said than done. Personally, I don't care if you slit your own throats and end up killing lots of your own people as a result. What liberals do themselves and do with their own doesn't matter to me anymore than what the Russians or the Chinese do today.  What you really need to do is file for a divorce from us and then do your own thing and tailor constitution to suit your own needs. I mean, it's going to happen one way or another eventually. I mean, the current financial arrangement that's keeping the country together won't last forever.

(04-07-2020, 06:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 02:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 02:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-06-2020, 11:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, that makes sense, she seems as ignorant and as partisan as you and most others like you here. So, what did those planners do to earn their paychecks during their stint under Obama other than flap their gums, fuck around and act important and accomplish little to nothing. BTW, that is what liberals seem to do best these days.

The various guests were in the front lines for AIDS, S1N1 and SARS among others.  As for ‘ignorant and partisan”, what is there in the above posting that says anything?  How can I respond if there is nothing there?

Again, you should try watching a few of Rachel’s shows.  If you are going to criticize something or some group, know something about what they are saying or doing.  If you don’t bother to learn, all you can do is to show your ignorance.

A conservative may dislike Rachel Maddow's politics, but as a rule she is a superb journalist. She gets the facts right. The dispute that a conservative has with her is with her interpretation. I'm guessing that she is simply the peak of a pyramid that does what journalists rightly do: reporting and (just as important) fact-checking. She connects undeniable fact with solid logic to get a conclusion that usually satisfies me. Contrast someone like Sean Hannity; he fits the story to his ideology, and if the story falls apart -- so do his conclusions.

As with Rachel Maddow as a journalist, so it was with Obama as an administrator. Neither knows everything, and both well know that. There is someone wiser, but such people are not good at expressing themselves or are too busy with their work to make public statements. Both know that politics and journalism exist to convince people, and someone like either is able to put such in the terms of a competent layman. 

Physicians do not do law or engineering; attorneys do not do medicine or engineering; engineers do not do medicine or law. Jacks-of-all-trades can go from one area of mediocre performance to another wherein training is slight... but develop certain skills to a certain level and one precludes the ability to do other things well for what one gets paid amply. The cellist Yo-Yo Ma does not play piano in some sleazy dive, but the piano player in a sleazy dive could switch to cashiering in a grocery store if the sleazy dives are shut down under stay-at-home orders.

I have yet to figure what Donald Trump does well that is a legitimate achievement. Oh, he got elected? In a fluke.

A superb journalist wouldn't be stuck working for a third rate cable station that's basically surviving on crumbs so to speak. She may be superb to you and her fans and a third tier audience comprised of liberals who spend the bulk of their time with liberals and pumping each other up and telling each other how great they are on a regular basis.

Quote:BTW, for your information, Trump was elected because Obama turned out to be hoax (didn't live up to all the hype and fell short as far as expectations) and Clinton didn't seem have the balls to upset the global apple cart. The dude has balls. You keep forgetting we're not France. I keep reminding you who we are and what you have to accept in order to remain America vs just another global citizen that the world will have to support. You already know where you stand with me and you know where you rank as far as my values.

Quote:When all is said and done, I think that the Obama and Eisenhower Presidencies are going to look like good analogues. Both Presidents are chilly rationalists. Both are practically scandal-free administrations. Both started with a troublesome war that both found their way out of. Neither did much to 'grow' the strength of their Parties in either House of Congress. To compare ISIS to Fidel Castro is completely unfair to Fidel Castro, a gentleman by contrast to ISIS. 

The definitive moderate Republican may have been Dwight Eisenhower, and I have heard plenty of Democrats praise the Eisenhower Presidency. He went along with Supreme Court rulings that outlawed segregationist practices, stayed clear of the McCarthy bandwagon, and let McCarthy implode.


 
gray -- did not vote in 1952 or 1956
white -- Eisenhower twice, Obama twice
deep blue -- Republican all four elections
light blue -- Republican all but 2012 (I assume that greater Omaha went for Ike twice)
light green -- Eisenhower once, Stevenson once, Obama never
dark green -- Stevenson twice, Obama never
pink -- Stevenson twice, Obama once 

No state voted Democratic all four times, so no state is in deep red. 

(04-06-2020, 11:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, that makes sense, she seems as ignorant and as partisan as you and most others like you here. So, what did those planners do to earn their paychecks during their stint under Obama other than flap their gums, fuck around and act important and accomplish little to nothing. BTW, that is what liberals seem to do best these days.

(04-07-2020, 04:29 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 03:55 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 02:56 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: Regarding Bob Butler's comments....

By the time the USA gets to the next 3T, those who remember the New Gilded Age will have retired, and will start to die off.  Younger generations will be naive, and will be conned by  new robber barons.

There is only one solution to that: amend the Constitution.  Crises are the only times that's viable, so it needs to be a primary goal.  It probably won't happen, but it should.

What did you have in mind?

I know I would want to go after the old slavery compromises which gave the slave states and now rural states artificially extra power.  These would be primarily the Senate, the Electoral College, and the difficulty getting an amendment, which tempts whomever has the power to ignore rule of law.  There is too much legislation from the bench.

I would say late Crisis is the time for amendments, which was after the Crisis war in the Industrial Age, this time around when the virus is solved.  An attempt is made to set the solutions to the Crisis in stone.  The attempt is often bypassed in the High though legislation from the bench.  For example, the Jim Crow court cases undid the Black Republican attempts to give blacks the benefits of human rights.

(04-07-2020, 06:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: A superb journalist wouldn't be stuck working for a third rate cable station that's basically surviving on crumbs so to speak. She may be superb to you and her fans and a third tier audience comprised of liberals who spend the bulk of their time with liberals and pumping each other up and telling each other how great they are on a regular basis.

Classic-Xer Wrote:BTW, for your information, Trump was elected because Obama turned out to be hoax (didn't live up to all the hype and fell short as far as expectations) and Clinton didn't seem have the balls to upset the global apple cart. The dude has balls. You keep forgetting we're not France. I keep reminding you who we are and what you have to accept in order to remain America vs just another global citizen that the world will have to support. You already know where you stand with me and you know where you rank as far as my values.

(04-07-2020, 06:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(04-07-2020, 04:29 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: What did you have in mind?

I know I would want to go after the old slavery compromises which gave the slave states and now rural states artificially extra power.  These would be primarily the Senate, the Electoral College, and the difficulty getting an amendment, which tempts whomever has the power to ignore rule of law.  There is too much legislation from the bench.

I would say late Crisis is the time for amendments, which was after the Crisis war in the Industrial Age, this time around when the virus is solved.  An attempt is made to set the solutions to the Crisis in stone.  The attempt is often bypassed in the High though legislation from the bench.  For example, the Jim Crow court cases undid the Black Republican attempts to give blacks the benefits of human rights.

Easier said than done. Personally, I don't care if you slit your own throats and end up killing lots of your own people as a result. What liberals do themselves and do with their own doesn't matter to me anymore than what the Russians or the Chinese do today.  What you really need to do is file for a divorce from us and then do your own thing and tailor constitution to suit your own needs. I mean, it's going to happen one way or another eventually. I mean, the current financial arrangement that's keeping the country together won't last forever.

(04-08-2020, 12:27 PM)David Horn Wrote: Trump has balls.  He lacks brains and judgement.  Trump's in the process of killing many of his followers.  I hope you aren't one.

Doing something because it feels good is not the same as doing something because it IS good. If you like the autocratic style, feel free to move to any of the many autocratic countries in the world, and leave us with the democracy we prefer.

(04-08-2020, 12:31 PM)David Horn Wrote: You do realize that Red America is highly subsidized by Blue America, right?  Just look as the reddest places and see if you are OK with that option. Start with Mississippi and Alabama.