(07-13-2020, 07:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-12-2020, 09:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-11-2020, 03:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-10-2020, 10:20 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The game is already up. Our political system clicks its heels and follows a really good President; it basically ignores that President when he goes bad. As a basic reality the President has few real powers that he cannot get without support of Congress.

Not confident that the click heels and follow part is true anymore.  The Republicans went pretty much into full obstruction mode with Obama.  These days there is not nearly enough heel clicking going on.  Too much partisanship.

Third-turning behavior characteristic of the Degeneracy. Republicans and their constituencies were still trying to live in the Third Turning and came close to succeeding in sticking us with a permanent 3T. The Right has been for little more than class privilege irrespective of the human cost for about forty years. Whether Donald Trump is grossly unfit for the task (in which case he would have a successor in the Hard Right who better knows and uses the Dictator Playbook... the first page of which says "co-opt, marginalize, or outlaw the opposition"... which Trump did not do). In that scenario we have one ineffective term of Joe Biden followed by someone with the Trump ideology but not the erratic behavior.

Here's a hope for the best -- that Donald Trump is the last stage of an era of exaggerated individualism on economics and mindlessness in public culture.

Where do you think we should be this early in the 4T? What did America do as most of old Europe collapsed went haywire? Did America jump on the bandwagon and side early or watch as Europe unraveled and waited to see the victor? This may be hard to understand or grasp but Democratic controlled America is in damn near the same position as Europe right now and America is watching and waiting to see the victor as its shoring up itself and preparing for an ugly 4T. Does America have the right to become Imperialist during times of war with imperialist nations or imperialist forces within? Yes we do. Does America have the right to counter violence with violence? Yes we do. Does America have the right to punish business's that ignore American law and impose their own law? Yes we do. Does America have the right to trash and disable Amazon vans and make it impossible for Amazon to do business outside blue areas like the liberals groups were free to do with our police vehicles and police building and the stores and shops of working people and all our statues and monuments. So, how many racist fucks that aren't white do you have on your side these days that have taken the place of the whites that America forced your race driven party to let go during the 60's? So, where are we at now. Are you clinging to 3T or are you ready for 4t like the other side?  I'm willing to hand the Democratic party to the cancel culture on a silver plate and let them do as they please with them for now.

(07-14-2020, 12:58 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-14-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't see a dictator. I see an American President being hampered by a bunch of petty liberal dictators. You're right, America can't function with a bunch of petty liberal dictators hampering it and undermining its authority.  So, what do you think is going to happen to all those petty dictators of yours when the gloves come off and the country takes a necessary step backwards to what we refer to as the good Wild West? A time when liberal smack or bullshit ended with an idiot peering down the gun barrel of a skeptic who is more interested in learning the truth. Dictators don't often have honorable deaths?

Yes, you really do hate democracy and pray for an iron-gloved savior. Here's a hint: Trump is a wimp of the worst kind and fully incapable of being the leader you seem to want so desperately.

(07-15-2020, 02:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.   Have you ever met one of us who are  incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy  for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more  their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating  jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

(07-15-2020, 02:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Are you speaking for  yourself or speaking to me? I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.   Have you ever met one of us who are  incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy  for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more  their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating  jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

(07-14-2020, 05:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We are twelve years into this Crisis Era, so we are much closer to its end than to its beginning. This early? I was wrong about Obama having most of what it took to redefine America. Ten years ago we found out the hard way what defines a plutocracy: he who owns the gold makes the rules. Those who had the gold funded reactionary politicians to take over the House majority while gutting the Democratic majority in the Senate; six years ago the same interests flipped the Senate, and four years ago we ended up with government of the Master Class, by the Master Class, and for the Master Class. Was that the last act of Crisis politics? 

No. Let's contrast 2020 with 2008:

generation    age-08   age-20

GI..............  84-107    96+
Silent.........  66-83     78-95
Boom.........  48-65     60-77
13th...........  27-47     39-59
Mill.............  to 26      to 38

It is not clear whether any generation younger than the Millennial generation has yet defined its upper year of birth. The Civic component of public life has gone from (largely) very old to young adult almost exclusively. The Adaptive component is has gone from old to very old. Maybe in many respects '70 is the new 50', which fits generations that, beginning with the GI generation and continuing at least to Boomers, have stayed intellectually and physically active as long as possible and extended their lifespans and influence. But even that has its limits. 80 is 80 still. The Boom Generation has almost entirely entered retirement age, and Boomers who who want to remain relevant in politics and culture now need the support of younger adults. Donald Trump had little youth appeal in 2016 and he has become even more offensive to young adults. Civic adults may not be hostile to older adults on principle, but they certainly can choose which ones can have roles in leadership. 

Now that Generation X (or the Thirteenth) is in midlife, its pragmatic qualities come to the fore. It believes in what works, and even if it is moral enough (at least those who haven't sullied themselves with extreme cynicism and anger) it seems to not like elaborate pretenses about moral grandeur. Morality can be pragmatic. Life is about the means of enjoying it, and this is the time to enjoy it to the most. It has earned the role and is beginning to wonder whether time is running out. It has the most to lose if things go badly. Let us put it this way: on opposite sides of the English Channel, someone like Air Marshal Arthur Tedder and his counterpart Hermann Goering knew that if their side would lose the war they would probably be tried as major war criminals, be convicted, and die with ropes around their necks. Likewise, neither Joseph Darnand (France's quisling) and Charles de Gaulle expected to meet bad ends if defeated. It's all-or-nothing for Reactive generations even if "all" is simply getting to see one's grandchildren reach their teens. 

The big change is of course the relative importance of the Millennial Generation. Its participation in the electorate is getting more significant... and we can expect it to start making a heavy appearance in politics as elected officials. This is the most liberal generation since the GI generation at like age. It is highly rational, and it does not accept pie-in-the-sky promises or trickle-down economics. Having often experienced hardscrabble youth (GI kids did not have life easy unless born into the economic elite) they see no Golden Age in American history. They want something better than what they have known so far, and they have good cause not to trust people who take everything available. 

There is no constituency in any generation, at any level of economic attainment, or at any position in the political spectrum (other than the tiny fascist Hard Right and the tiny Commie Hard Left) for political violence or outright theft. 

Now... can one be white and consider Donald Trump a swine? Yes.

(07-15-2020, 10:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

(07-15-2020, 02:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-14-2020, 12:58 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-14-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't see a dictator. I see an American President being hampered by a bunch of petty liberal dictators. You're right, America can't function with a bunch of petty liberal dictators hampering it and undermining its authority.  So, what do you think is going to happen to all those petty dictators of yours when the gloves come off and the country takes a necessary step backwards to what we refer to as the good Wild West? A time when liberal smack or bullshit ended with an idiot peering down the gun barrel of a skeptic who is more interested in learning the truth. Dictators don't often have honorable deaths?

Yes, you really do hate democracy and pray for an iron-gloved savior. Here's a hint: Trump is a wimp of the worst kind and fully incapable of being the leader you seem to want so desperately.

Are you speaking for  yourself or speaking to me? I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.   Have you ever met one of us who are  incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy  for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more  their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating  jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

(07-15-2020, 03:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 02:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.   Have you ever met one of us who are  incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy  for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more  their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating  jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

Hmm…. In general, it is the Republican Party who has chased voter suppression and gerrymandering to maintain their power.  I don’t see you or David as being big movers and shakers in that department, but it is the establishment Republicans who put their own power over the will of the people.  This is more a pursuit of power than hate.  I wouldn't say the Republican establishment hates democracy, but they think it is a nuisance that gets in the way of their pursuit of power.

The Republicans do have a potentially violent force in being in the militias, but they have always accepted election results and seem to be threatening force only if an attempt is made to violate the Second Amendment.  The violent racist police continuing Jim Crow doctrine has attracted the Boogaloo Bois and other violent responses by the blacks.  This is a real element of the spiral of violence.  I don’t see anyone here as advocating the lawless use of violence, but some seem to endorse the racial violence of the police, generally against the American principle of valuing life and equality.  Jim Crow is an idea whose time is past, as has been made clear by the recent protests, and Republican establishment opposition has been quite clear.

Women’s ability to choose and the separation of church and state can be viewed in different ways.  Ironically, the Republicans want to impose their convictions on health care on all, and the Democrats on separation of church and state.

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 03:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Hmm…. In general, it is the Republican Party who has chased voter suppression and gerrymandering to maintain their power.  I don’t see you or David as being big movers and shakers in that department, but it is the establishment Republicans who put their own power over the will of the people.  This is more a pursuit of power than hate.  I wouldn't say the Republican establishment hates democracy, but they think it is a nuisance that gets in the way of their pursuit of power.

The Republicans do have a potentially violent force in being in the militias, but they have always accepted election results and seem to be threatening force only if an attempt is made to violate the Second Amendment.  The violent racist police continuing Jim Crow doctrine has attracted the Boogaloo Bois and other violent responses by the blacks.  This is a real element of the spiral of violence.  I don’t see anyone here as advocating the lawless use of violence, but some seem to endorse the racial violence of the police, generally against the American principle of valuing life and equality.  Jim Crow is an idea whose time is past, as has been made clear by the recent protests, and Republican establishment opposition has been quite clear.

Women’s ability to choose and the separation of church and state can be viewed in different ways.  Ironically, the Republicans want to impose their convictions on health care on all, and the Democrats on separation of church and state.

Dude, the systemic racism ploy has little to no face value these days. The racist police force ploy has little to no face value either these days.

Quote:We see too many minority faces wearing police uniforms and government positions and higher office for either them to be viewed as true these days. The mayor of Chicago is black. The mayor of St Paul is black. The police chief of Minneapolis is black. The Minneapolis police force has people of all races working for it these days. Hint, two of the four cops involved in the George Floyd incident were minority police officers.

Quote:The last President was black for Christ sake's.

Quote:Personally speaking, I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics  are doing/causing  a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days. So, how does an American take down/out/level  a self absorbed, a self serving partisan liberal prick or (profanity excised) without misbehaving or upsetting someone or getting into trouble with liberal moderators or sensors these days? 

Quote:Yep. Jim Crow ended almost 60 years but you're still acting like it's alive and well and still going on strong these days.

Quote:You are also still denying that Marxism is more active and more alive and a much greater influence and more of a threat to America and the American way of life than the remnants of the bygone era of Jim Crow.

Quote:Why does the city of Chicago have a clueless left wing political activist or black sugar mommy for its mayor these days?  Liberal sugar mommy's only know how to buy votes and please liberal constituents with government funding and other free stuff associated with government funding and going along with whatever liberal interest groups want, believes the country must  focus on and address like climate change and so forth.

(07-15-2020, 11:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 10:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

September 11th was a little early and there was a conservative in charge.  2008 and whatever little Obama tried to do was undone by Trump.  I would agree neither was the trigger, regeneracy and leading into the crisis heart.  Now, we are almost definitely in the crisis heart, though arguably we won't have a regeneracy until the federal government is implementing the new values.

But I would say the crisis problems are have always been solved, and you cannot do that by trying to pretend the problems do not exist.  I know how we traditionally have had bad presidents clinging to the old values and demonstrating how they don't work any more.  Buchanon, Hoover and Trump are all doing a great job of that.  In a way that is necessary, to prepare the country to move on.

Still you aren't yet convinced.  Between the virus and Trump, enough people will be.  You are stubborn or stupid enough that you may not be among them.

(07-15-2020, 01:45 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 03:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Hmm…. In general, it is the Republican Party who has chased voter suppression and gerrymandering to maintain their power.  I don’t see you or David as being big movers and shakers in that department, but it is the establishment Republicans who put their own power over the will of the people.  This is more a pursuit of power than hate.  I wouldn't say the Republican establishment hates democracy, but they think it is a nuisance that gets in the way of their pursuit of power.

The Republicans do have a potentially violent force in being in the militias, but they have always accepted election results and seem to be threatening force only if an attempt is made to violate the Second Amendment.  The violent racist police continuing Jim Crow doctrine has attracted the Boogaloo Bois and other violent responses by the blacks.  This is a real element of the spiral of violence.  I don’t see anyone here as advocating the lawless use of violence, but some seem to endorse the racial violence of the police, generally against the American principle of valuing life and equality.  Jim Crow is an idea whose time is past, as has been made clear by the recent protests, and Republican establishment opposition has been quite clear.

Women’s ability to choose and the separation of church and state can be viewed in different ways.  Ironically, the Republicans want to impose their convictions on health care on all, and the Democrats on separation of church and state.

Dude, the systemic racism ploy has little to no face value these days. The racist police force ploy has little to no face value either these days.

George Floyd is a counter-example to you.

Quote:We see too many minority faces wearing police uniforms and government positions and higher office for either them to be viewed as true these days. The mayor of Chicago is black. The mayor of St Paul is black. The police chief of Minneapolis is black. The Minneapolis police force has people of all races working for it these days. Hint, two of the four cops involved in the George Floyd incident were minority police officers.

One of those is an Asian-American, and some of the worst anti-black racism I have ever heard comes from Asian-Americans, especially Koreans. I don't know what that is... the Koreans often have near-white skins? OK, I'm white (German, English, Swiss, Welsh, Scots-Irish)... my skin color would fit in well in Korea. Much else wouldn't.  

Quote:The last President was black for Christ sake's.

...and the current President has undone all the good that a very good President has done except for resolute support for Obergfell v. Hodges. Even the Obama recovery is at severe risk under the bumbling of Donald Trump. But Trump is a businessman?

Quote:Personally speaking, I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics  are doing/causing  a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days. So, how does an American take down/out/level  a self absorbed, a self serving partisan liberal prick or (profanity excised) without misbehaving or upsetting someone or getting into trouble with liberal moderators or sensors these days? 

I can't speak for Bob on that, but in my experience the cops don't ask the politics about a batterer or his spouse in a domestic disturbance. That I voted for the current sheriff won't matter if I should drive drunk (not that I will). There is no partisan relationship to overall support for the police when they do the job right. Nobody has any justification for supporting police brutality.

Quote:Yep. Jim Crow ended almost 60 years but you're still acting like it's alive and well and still going on strong these days.

The only advantage that I can see in being identifiably black (including 'biracial') is sex... if a man. There are lots of good black women out there that one can get away with dating more easily if one is black than if one is white because of social stigma. On the other side, there are subcultures of white women who want black men and... the less said, the better. I have no desire to spread any ethnic stereotypes.  

Quote:You are also still denying that Marxism is more active and more alive and a much greater influence and more of a threat to America and the American way of life than the remnants of the bygone era of Jim Crow.

There still is a Communist Party of the United States of America, and it seems to have moderated many of its stands. (You may believe or reject its claims to such). But note well that the difference between some of our reactionaries such as the John Birch Society (yes, it still exists, and it is as crazy as ever) is that the ultra-reactionaries endorse the inequality, hierarchy, and exploitation that Marxists see indelibly wrong in capitalism.  Most people who believe in capitalism to any extent want to make capitalism more human... and considering what most of us think of capitalism (it's good for making things, but not adequate for social justice) most of those you consider on the Left would like a social-market system or at least Capitalism with a Human Face as an alternative to the plutocracy that we now endure.   

Quote:Why does the city of Chicago have a clueless left wing political activist or black sugar mommy for its mayor these days?  Liberal sugar mommy's only know how to buy votes and please liberal constituents with government funding and other free stuff associated with government funding and going along with whatever liberal interest groups want, believes the country must  focus on and address like climate change and so forth.

So what does the Hard Right have to offer? Work harder, work longer, for less, and pay monopolized prices and abandon all dreams of any economic security so that you can have pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die? 

I get food aid related to my disability, and I know exactly where the money goes. Most of it ends up at Meijer, Wal*Mart, or a bit less often Kroger, Aldi, or Spartan-Nash.  What I get as disability goes to my brother to partially offset living costs, an auto insurance company, Discover (an old credit-card bill that I have found hard to shake), or gas stations. Right back into the US economy.

I( did get the stimulus check, but it looks as it is going to end up paying medical bills that Medicaid botched.

Poverty in the most materialist, plutocratic society on Earth is miserable. Let's put it this way -- if the GOP wins the upcoming election I might consider a fatal heart attack or stroke a blessing. I don't expect life to be easy, but I certainly don't believe that we need a grim, dreary, joyless world just to ensure that a small and entrenched elite get everything that it wants irrespective of the human cost. Still, in a plutocracy -- he who owns the gold makes the rules. Just ask the remaining Koch brother.

(07-15-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.

(07-15-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 11:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 10:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

September 11th was a little early and there was a conservative in charge.  2008 and whatever little Obama tried to do was undone by Trump.  I would agree neither was the trigger, regeneracy and leading into the crisis heart.  Now, we are almost definitely in the crisis heart, though arguably we won't have a regeneracy until the federal government is implementing the new values.

But I would say the crisis problems are have always been solved, and you cannot do that by trying to pretend the problems do not exist.  I know how we traditionally have had bad presidents clinging to the old values and demonstrating how they don't work any more.  Buchanon, Hoover and Trump are all doing a great job of that.  In a way that is necessary, to prepare the country to move on.

Still you aren't yet convinced.  Between the virus and Trump, enough people will be.  You are stubborn or stupid enough that you may not be among them.

Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics are doing/causing  a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days.

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yep. Jim Crow ended almost 60 years but you're still acting like it's alive and well and still going on strong these days. You are also still denying that Marxism is more active and more alive and a much greater influence and more of a threat to America and the American way of life than the remnants of the bygone era of Jim Crow. Why does the city of Chicago have a clueless left wing political activist or black sugar mommy for its mayor these days?  Liberal sugar mommy's only know how to buy votes and please liberal constituents with government funding and other free stuff associated with government funding and going along with whatever liberal interest groups want, believes the country must  focus on and address like climate change and so forth.

(07-15-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 11:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 10:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

September 11th was a little early and there was a conservative in charge.  2008 and whatever little Obama tried to do was undone by Trump.  I would agree neither was the trigger, regeneracy and leading into the crisis heart.  Now, we are almost definitely in the crisis heart, though arguably we won't have a regeneracy until the federal government is implementing the new values.

But I would say the crisis problems are have always been solved, and you cannot do that by trying to pretend the problems do not exist.  I know how we traditionally have had bad presidents clinging to the old values and demonstrating how they don't work any more.  Buchanon, Hoover and Trump are all doing a great job of that.  In a way that is necessary, to prepare the country to move on.

Still you aren't yet convinced.  Between the virus and Trump, enough people will be.  You are stubborn or stupid enough that you may not be among them.

Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.