(07-19-2020, 04:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 03:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yep. Fort Sumter represented an attack on federal property by a violent group who wanted to send the American government and its people and all their Confederate supporters a message by seizing an American fort. Bob, you seem to be having a problem recognizing the eerie similarities between what went on with Fort Sumter and other federal properties back then and what's going on with federal properties located in certain parts of the country today...  

I recognize the pattern.  Those trying to cling to the old values get submarined by the arrow of progress.  They appeal to violence and lose.  In the Information Age, I anticipate the violence will be replaced by legislation to a great extent.

Ask any slaveholder how it works, if you can find one.

(07-19-2020, 03:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that Dave is getting his information from the same groups and media  outlets and sources that you and others are these days. I know that if you and I were to meet, you wouldn't be able to look me in the face or give me a straight answer or admit to me that you are/ were wrong and apologize even if your life depended upon you doing it at the time.

I do pick up the quite public reports, with the CNN and the AP pages being the most common these days.  I generally link to my sources.  I can quite assure you that no one is sending me anything that isn't on an obvious page.  Your assumption that I am getting secretive propaganda from some hidden blue group is a figment of your rather warped imagination.  It is totally divorced from reality, as is most of your junk.

(07-19-2020, 03:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 02:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Fort Sumpter was an attack on federal property by a bunch of people who wanted to initiate violence.  That sort of is what the Boogaloo Bois want to do.  The Boogaloo Bois do not have the stature of the Confederate Government.  Granted, some of the red faction of the government also seems to want to settle the issue by force and violence too.  They are leading each other on a merry dance.  I'd wish them luck with each other save they are dragging some of the protesters into their dance.

The blue leaning parts of the government, the people, and the protestors are leaning away from the violence.

But that is not what the protestors is asking for.  I can't speak for everyone, but I favor that the good cops be more loyal to the law and to the community than to the bad cops.  I don't see us getting rid of the blue wall of silence entirely, but it should be easy to lose the worthiness it takes to earn that protection.

Dave?  Are you getting stuff from some secret conspiracy, or is that a figment of Classic's imagination too?

Yep. Fort Sumter represented an attack on federal property by a violent group who wanted to send the American government and its people and all their Confederate supporters a message by seizing an American fort. Bob, you seem to be having a problem recognizing the eerie similarities between what went on with Fort Sumter and other federal properties back then and what's going on with federal properties located in certain parts of the country today. The liberals are strumming its nose and blowing off Americans just like the British and the Confederates. I'll help you learn what it was like to be a starving Confederate civilian, a Confederate whose government was to weak to stop rogue groups of criminals  from murdering, looting and raping unprotected women as they please or stop an American army or armed American population from killing and removing the rights of thousands upon thousands of Confederate supporters and so forth. I assume that Dave is getting his information from the same groups and media  outlets and sources that you and others are these days. I know that if you and I were to meet, you wouldn't be able to look me in the face or give me a straight answer or admit to me that you are/ were wrong and apologize even if your life depended upon you doing it at the time.

(07-19-2020, 11:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob, I'm going to be associated with racist oppression whether it's true or not at this point. You seem to be stuck on the Boogaloo Bois and seem pretty  clueless about much larger and more powerful  groups like Antifa and Black Lives Matter.  I think it's very clear that liberals don't care whether what they say about other people and what they believe is actually true or not at this point. I get it, you've already committed and you can't go backwards at this point.  I can't touch you but I can touch one of you anytime time that I want at this point.   BTW, when we start responding to the Left and start playing tit for tat with the Left and the Left starts finding itself at odds with a much more powerful American  version of their own cancel culture their reign will come to an ugly and brutal end. I don't know who taught you that America can't be as mean or meaner and less sympathetic than the Left towards the Left these days but who ever did was either a fool or a liar.

(07-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm suggesting that you're receiving select information not secretive information.

(07-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Right now, the Left is the only group using intimidation and violence as a political means to achieve its objectives which seems to work pretty well with liberal Democrats and peaceful people associated the American Left or the center left these days. Unfortunately, it's not working at all with those on the other side of the political spectrum these days. Yep. The folks clinging to old world values that you are now directly associated with whether you like it or not are currently setting themselves up to be pummeled by those directly associated with the arrow of progress these days.

(07-20-2020, 12:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 06:04 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: New technology often gets put to perverse uses. Inexpensive video equipment as recording devices and playback devices became the conduits for child pornography. Computers and wire transfers can be programmed to do large-scale embezzlement. Firearms... what could be more obvious? The automobile was the perfect device for hit-and-run offenses... do an armed robbery in a neighboring state or near-neighboring state, getting to the scene of the crime and returning to one's own state where one lives off the loot. In one's own state one behaves oneself and does nothing to be prosecuted there. Bad people are as adept as putting technology to use as the rest of us.   

It's J. Edgar Hoover who put an end to the practice of offenders crossing state lines to get away with crimes because they happened to be 'clean' in one state. Bonnie and Clyde did that. To a certain extent Dillinger (still the most hated man in Indiana) did that. They typically lived off the proceeds of their crimes in one state in which they did nothing illegal. J. Edgar Hoover made the most of a federal law that made a federal offense of crossing a state line to avoid criminal prosecution. Once the offender was in federal custody for a comparatively minor crime, the crook could be sent to the state of choosing by the FBI for prosecution. So you live in Wisconsin but commit your big crimes in Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana? The FBI will let the several states practically bid on who gets him based upon the severity of offenses. If the crime is likely to get one a very long stay in prison or a short stay followed by a few thousand volts in the electric chair... then a case nearly certain to lead to the electric chair wins. There were other tricks, too. Capone was ultimately convicted not of bootlegging and murders but of federal tax evasion. Kidnapping for ransom was an easy way to make money as a criminal until the Feds clamped down.

The 1930's was the peak decade for executions. While Governor of New York State, FDR had signed some death warrants. He never was exactly 'nice' to offenders. Let's remember also that the movie studios followed the lead of the politicians in showing criminal offenders as scum who ended up perhaps like "Rocky Sullivan" (James Cagney) in Angels with Dirty Faces , initially living the high life until their lives take the well-deserved end... the electric chair. Note well that in that movie a crooked attorney (played by none other than Humphrey Bogart) who gets complicity in the crimes of "Rocky" ends up dead in a gangland murder. 

So the outlaws who were heroes in some misguided circles ended up in prison, killed by law enforcement, or 'fried' in the electric chair. That's one way to lose relevance. It's also telling that American propaganda of World War II did much to compare Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo to such gangsters. OK, Mussolini would die of a firing squad after being caught by Resistance forces taking over in northern Italy before the US Army got to him; Hitler offed himself in a bunker a couple of days before the Soviet Army got into his bunker; Tojo would be hanged and not electrocuted. But you get the general idea. 

OK... running afoul of Donald Trump politically isn't close to the sort of offense as the sort of offense that liberals usually find easy to treat as a public horror -- such as human trafficking. Like genuine despots who get away with killing those who run afoul of them, Trump sees dissent as a great crime. Our system never has worked that way and, so far as I can tell, never will. Checks and balances are far better defenses of human rights and civil liberties than is the public love of liberty. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Satan Hussein, and al-Baghdadi never let checks and balances get in the way of their agenda.  Checks and balances do far more to stop a Donald Trump who tries to rule as a despot than a Barack Obama who honors the niceties of the rule of law. 

You tell me, though -- which bleeding-heart liberal politician is giving sanctuary to outlaws reminiscent of  Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Frank and Jesse James, etc.? Several of our most liberal politicians got their political starts as crime-busting DA's who saw no political significance in suppressing drug trafficking, child abuse, spouse abuse, and perhaps auto-theft rings. I am a liberal and I was offended when a relative of mine (by marriage) bragged about buying some stolen tires... in the presence of someone whose car was stolen and my father whose car was broken into for its expensive radio. 

It might surprise you that the criminals are generally apolitical. They simply prefer weak, lax, or incompetent law enforcement that allows them to get away with their crimes... or think themselves smarter than some "dumb cop".

Yep. The criminals prefer law enforcement to weak, lax, incompetent and pretty much powerless. You're smart enough to figure that out and understand that as well but you're not wise enough to associate it with what Black Lives Matter is up to and trying to get away with doing right now. Well, we are wise enough to see it for what it is and vote accordingly.

(07-19-2020, 11:40 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 04:05 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-19-2020, 03:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, Antifa recently destroyed a police precinct and a bunch of other government related property (assets) in Minneapolis...

Antifa, or the Boogaloo Bois?  Last I knew, the people pushing destruction were not leaving calling cards.  I've been assuming their propaganda about their respective objectives are accurate.  You seem to prefer to pervert the stated motivations.

(07-19-2020, 03:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: and Black Live Matter is now  in the process of imposing its values on the rest of Minneapolis by defunding and further weakening what's left of its police force.

Yes, after centuries of murder and prejudiced oppression.  The police have resisted reforming their violent racist habits, and you can only get results by replacing rather than reforming them.  Are you in favor or racist oppression, of a hostile relationship with the community you are supposed to protect?

Bob, I'm going to be associated with racist oppression whether it's true or not at this point. You seem to be stuck on the Boogaloo Bois and seem pretty  clueless about much larger and more powerful  groups like Antifa and Black Lives Matter.  I think it's very clear that liberals don't care whether what they say about other people and what they believe is actually true or not at this point. I get it, you've already committed and you can't go backwards at this point.  I can't touch you but I can touch one of you anytime time that I want at this point.   BTW, when we start responding to the Left and start playing tit for tat with the Left and the Left starts finding itself at odds with a much more powerful American  version of their own cancel culture their reign will come to an ugly and brutal end. I don't know who taught you that America can't be as mean or meaner and less sympathetic than the Left towards the Left these days but who ever did was either a fool or a liar.

(07-20-2020, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

(07-20-2020, 05:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I get my news from the major costal organizations, including CNN, the AP and MSNBC.  I also visit YouTube frequently, and pick up many another point of view.  I take these far more seriously than an obviously partisan rogue.

I see in these the motivations of the four organizations.  The Antifa, anti fascists, opponents of the KKK and Neo Nazi, are willing to go violent if their opposition does and has.  Black lives matter, who thinks black lives matter, opposes the centuries old racist violent tendencies of the bad cops.  The Boogaloo Bois think that the establishment has failed, that only violence could correct the wrongs.  These are basically Marxists without Marx, very similar in philosophy, but avoiding the reputation, language and history of Lenin, Stalin and Mao.  They latch onto any protest on many topics and attempt to promote violence without caring much about what is being protested.  Finally there are looters, more financially motivated than political, but see opportunity in exploiting political moments for their own gain.

In the simplest of worlds, people would have only one motivation.  Everyone could be dropped in one and only one slot.  I am quite willing to admit this is not the simplest of worlds.  While each of these motives will gather those who support it, there could easily be those who follow more than one.

I myself have not bothered with Antifa, endorse Black Lives Matter, and think policing should be endorsed against the Boogaloo Bois and looters.  No matter what name you use, all four motivations exist.  I see most who would consider themselves blue concur.

Now there are some reds that twist these motives.  I remember one incident where the local red activists decided that a family of tourists was secretly violent Antifa activists, and ‘defended’ the community from the tourists by cutting down enough trees that they could not leave.  The family was rescued by people who used chainsaws to gather firewood and the local police.  Make the world safe from family campers?  The reds were entirely wrong about the motivations of the people harassed.

Now I have no reason to throw away the informations gathered from the major news organizations away in favor of similar twisted information from a partisan fanatic.  For some reason Classic has a tendency to get his motivations confused.  This is no surprise.  As he cannot deal with the real blue motivations he makes up straw men that he can deal with.  That is his major trick, a fairly useless one.

(07-20-2020, 11:44 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

Not really.  The confederates and the current day reds are both fighting for the old values of their time which include racism and opposes equality.  The old values don't do so well once the crisis heart starts.

You can try to turn things upside down, but to do so you have to attribute false motivations and try to make the people so ill described fit your descriptions.  You can lie to yourself, but trying to lie to people who know themselves is kinda futile.

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

(07-20-2020, 12:47 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Oh?  Most of those are not crisis wars, do not reflect the nature of 4Ts.  You believe we are still ruled by kings, part of the Commonwealth, a colony of England?  You believe the Confederates won the Civil War, and the slave owners still dominate US politics?  You believe Hitler won World War II, and that Hitler's heirs still rule the world?

That is the sort of revisionist history I expect from you.  Nothing to do with what actually happened.  Motivations of your opponent totally misunderstood.  You have to make yourself willfully ignorant to promote the old values. 

(07-20-2020, 04:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I gave you a long  list of wars that were fought against old world values that America won and you come back at me with this nonsense.

(07-20-2020, 03:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

Why are you defending them, then?

You copy Trump so much. Here again you reverse what I said about you, and say it about me. But I am sure that the original version is correct.

Just like the famous "fake news" that Trump and his Russian backers spread on the internet, as it was called, and then he picks it up and calls everything "fake news" that he doesn't like hearing.

"The old values didn't succeed during the American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, The Texas Revolution, the Mexican American war, the American Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, the Great Depression, World War II, The Korean War or the Cold War."

That's right. That why the old values which you represent won't succeed in this current 4T either. Your definition of "American" is really "old values" but you don't admit it.

(07-20-2020, 05:01 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 04:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I gave you a long  list of wars that were fought against old world values that America won and you come back at me with this nonsense.

Which is why I deleted the post just before you responded.  A clearer version seemed possible.

The non crisis war qualification still stands.  They say little about how 4Ts work.

The American Civil War doesn’t really count either.  While Britain almost became involved, it never did.  The American Civil War was not a war fought against an old world power.

But the Revolution and World War II do count as wars fought against the old world for reasons we believe in, though you have to admit there were economic reasons too.  In the Revolution we were trying to free ourselves from colonial imperialism.  In World War II, we were trying to keep the trade lanes open, to become the superpower we became.

But in fighting against kings, slaves and dictators, we were fighting with the arrow of progress, for an advance in equality, democracy and human rights.  The old values lost, became abandoned following the wars fought.

How that makes you optimistic that the old values will stand this time around escapes me.  In the crisis heart, equality, democracy and human rights come to the fore.  Keeping minorities unequal and not valuing the preservation of life puts you one the wrong end of things.

(07-20-2020, 06:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: There is a very long term way of looking at things which is laid out in the book The Cousin's Wars.  It proposes that the English Civil War started the split between what has become the modern red blue conflict.  There was an aristocratic, rural, high church cavalier faction, and a democratic, urban, low church roundhead faction.  The first immigrated to the southern states when they were losing, and the last immigrated to the north.  Both cultures made significant contributions, each in their own way, to how America evolved.

Still, it is generally the Roundhead pattern where equality, human rights and democracy is pushed forward.  The roundhead urban faction has wound up pushing the new values, the cavalier rural faction the old.

I suspect this has some bearing for why you are an advocate for the southern, rural, racist, red perspective of today.

Now I can't say that the cavalier culture hasn't contributed to America.  They just wind up supporting the racist violent element, which is a disadvantage when the 4T comes around.  They tend to get smoked.

(07-20-2020, 10:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 06:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: There is a very long term way of looking at things which is laid out in the book The Cousin's Wars.  It proposes that the English Civil War started the split between what has become the modern red blue conflict.  There was an aristocratic, rural, high church cavalier faction, and a democratic, urban, low church roundhead faction.  The first immigrated to the southern states when they were losing, and the last immigrated to the north.  Both cultures made significant contributions, each in their own way, to how America evolved.

Still, it is generally the Roundhead pattern where equality, human rights and democracy is pushed forward.  The roundhead urban faction has wound up pushing the new values, the cavalier rural faction the old.

I suspect this has some bearing for why you are an advocate for the southern, rural, racist, red perspective of today.

Now I can't say that the cavalier culture hasn't contributed to America.  They just wind up supporting the racist violent element, which is a disadvantage when the 4T comes around.  They tend to get smoked.

How would you plan to eat during the Liberal war with Rural America? How do you keep Suburban America from siding with Rural America? How do keep what's left of Urban America from leaving and siding with Suburban America and Rural America? You're right, Liberal America which ain't all that liberal or all that democratic either these days would end up getting smoked by America.

(07-20-2020, 05:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 03:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 11:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-20-2020, 02:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You are defending the Confederates, which is racist. Stop denying that you are racist.

The Confederates were not Americans.

(North Americans though, I suppose, but not citizens of the USA)

Dude, there are no ex Confederates alive to defend these days. True, the Confederates weren't technically Americans during the Civil War years. You'll find that out and learn what it was like to be one of them soon enough as well. Like it or not, you are on the modern day version of the Confederate side today.

Why are you defending them, then?

You copy Trump so much. Here again you reverse what I said about you, and say it about me. But I am sure that the original version is correct.

Just like the famous "fake news" that Trump and his Russian backers spread on the internet, as it was called, and then he picks it up and calls everything "fake news" that he doesn't like hearing.

"The old values didn't succeed during the American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, The Texas Revolution, the Mexican American war, the American Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, the Great Depression, World War II, The Korean War or the Cold War."

That's right. That why the old values which you represent won't succeed in this current 4T either. Your definition of "American" is really "old values" but you don't admit it.

I don't copy Trump and I doubt Trump copies me either. We're just similar in many ways. So, what makes you think that I'm defending the Confederates? Me, I happen to believe  American history is important myself. Like I said, do as you please in you areas but be prepared to die for doing it outside your areas. Personally, I don't care if Minneapolis and St. Paul turn to shit. Of the two, I'm more fond of St.Paul and view it as  the more valuable of the two cities. Do you have a problem if the Americans who live in Minnesota decide to save one and leave the other to rot?